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BobZag
03-16-2010, 05:10 PM
Somebody please explain to me why when a player steals the ball and has a breakaway layup or dunk, the opposing player feels it is necessary to touch the breakaway guy and cause an "And-1". 99% of time these little touches are not enough to even bother the layup or dunk, so why does this happen so often?

Answers?

jbslicer
03-16-2010, 05:14 PM
I agree. The refs needs to employ "the good no call" more than they do.

MickMick
03-16-2010, 05:19 PM
If you whack your cat every time it swipes at a mouse, it will still swipe at the mouse (Might run away for a brief time, but will still be compelled to do it in the future).

You can't control instinct within an environment filled with adrenaline

americasteam
03-16-2010, 05:20 PM
I know!!! Either don't touch them at all or do what Sacre did to Samhan! Remember that play in the MAC???? No chance of Samhan dunking there :)

He went for the ball (so no problem of a flagrant call by the refs) and he did it hard enough that there was NO WAY the ball was goin' in the hole. And got our whole team fired up!!! Loved that play!

BobZag
03-16-2010, 05:23 PM
But why even put a hand or arm out to even "look" like a touch foul? Time and time again. Every ref calls it, has for years. Why do that?

I've never understood it. Especially a guard that has zero chance of blocking it.

[replying to jbslicer] :)

Fonebone
03-16-2010, 05:47 PM
Playing high school football many years ago, it seemed like every time one of our running backs broke away for a long touchdown run, guys that were 10 or 20 yards behind him would throw an illegal block - clip - on some defender that had no possible chance of catching him. So the touchdown gets called back. Why did they do it ? It made no sense. I know they were excited, but it was a total lack of dicipline and smarts.

Bocco
03-16-2010, 05:52 PM
I suspect they commit the touch foul on a breakaway for the same reason they foul a three point shot after the ball is already on it's way to the hoop.....
....in either case I don't understand it either.

cscz28
03-16-2010, 05:59 PM
I'm pretty sure MB's college thesis is on this very subject and why it seems to be so impossible to resist, you should ask him.

ZagLawGrad
03-16-2010, 06:10 PM
I think it's more the narcissitic refs

alaskazagnut
03-16-2010, 06:37 PM
for quarterbacks in football. The guys going to the hoop are in a vulnerable position. They make all calls when they are touched becasue if they don't things will quickly get out of hand and people will get seriously hurt.

Weak excuse, but that is why I think they do it.

applezag
03-16-2010, 06:45 PM
It's a two part problem, Bob.

1) Players are pissed off and lack the discipline to hold back. I agree with the poster who said if you're going to do it, keep the guy from scoring at least. But they have to know they foul shooter, the situation, and the foul count. You see this far less in the NBA, they usually just let the guy go. I think they are taught just to let it go and not risk the foul.

2) Refs anticipate the heck out of these calls, and quite often a player will run by, take a swipe, whiff, and still be whistled. It's almost like the refs just don't like the behavior so they will whistle it anyway.

fedwayzag
03-16-2010, 07:36 PM
Really wish they would just let them go. Don't need the foul and the and 1 can be a killer.

MississppiZag
03-16-2010, 07:53 PM
Not something I count for, but it seems like Bouldin does this a lot. Always seems to be in between to foul or not?

Zag79
03-17-2010, 12:19 AM
I'm pretty sure MB's college thesis is on this very subject and why it seems to be so impossible to resist, you should ask him.


Not something I count for, but it seems like Bouldin does this a lot. Always seems to be in between to foul or not?

:lmao: i was thinking all of this as i read the original post. matt is notorious for doing this. i never understand it either, smack him hard enough so he cant make the layup or just move out of the way!

Hoopaholic
03-17-2010, 07:09 AM
as with ANYTHING in the great game of basketball....it boils down to preparation and practice...to answer your question it boils down to this "situation" is NOT practiced anymore....
When I was coaching, I got the "priviledge" to work a summer basketball camp with Mr. Bobby Knight. After each days session, he would get us coaches around the table and discuss practice plans, preparation, ect.....I still have my original notes and this was one of those areas he had discussed with us.
We practiced this scenario once a week, with each of the kids going thru the drill on "what to do on break away" as it pertains to defending....

I honestly dont think it gets discussed, outlined or practiced anymore.

Bogozags
03-17-2010, 08:24 AM
It's a two part problem, Bob.

1) Players are pissed off and lack the discipline to hold back. I agree with the poster who said if you're going to do it, keep the guy from scoring at least. But they have to know they foul shooter, the situation, and the foul count. You see this far less in the NBA, they usually just let the guy go. I think they are taught just to let it go and not risk the foul.

2) Refs anticipate the heck out of these calls, and quite often a player will run by, take a swipe, whiff, and still be whistled. It's almost like the refs just don't like the behavior so they will whistle it anyway.

Having ref'd for many years...retired now...but there are "anticipation fouls, which are in essence a thought process that says, a player will be fouled so call it....we see that all the time by the Lead Official who is calling over the back on an offensive player, who happens to be on the other side of the key. Replays clearly depict that there was not contact. This call is also made frequently by the "Center" as well on a player who is on the opposite side of the court from him. God knows why they make these calls! I personally, never made that call unless I actually saw excessive contact initiated by the player behind the rebounder - normally the offensive player rebounding.

With regard to a break-away and the defender follows and just stands by or goes by BUT just barely touches the shooter, then the player is whistled for the foul - this is done primarily to protect the airbourne shooter.

I have often thought that when a shooter is airborne and is fouled it is pretty much "an intentional foul." As in Rob's foul on Samman, Rob intentionally fouled and in my book that was "intentional" by rule but in most cases they don't call it intentional. It should be called intentional and in some cases a flagarant foul as well BUT that isn't done...see so many calls not being made or allowed as if they we playing in the NBA! Have also been seeing more and more "continuation" and blocking calls made under/close to the basket. it is a point of emphasis this year but think the criteria is a bit nebulous IMHO.

rijman
03-17-2010, 08:46 AM
:lmao: i was thinking all of this as i read the original post. matt is notorious for doing this. i never understand it either, smack him hard enough so he cant make the layup or just move out of the way!

+1

Either stop the shot or get out of the way.

BobZag
03-17-2010, 09:40 AM
Why when a player, especially a guard but even a taller guy, gets underneath the basket and is surrounded by tall trees that have him smothered, why does the player try to jump up and make the basket when there is obviously no way in hell he can? Why doesn't he pass it out of there?

Bogozags
03-17-2010, 09:50 AM
Why when a player, especially a guard but even a taller guy, gets underneath the basket and is surrounded by tall trees that have him smothered, why does the player try to jump up and make the basket when there is obviously no way in hell he can? Why doesn't he pass it out of there?

This just might be a testosterone thing...why not just throw it off the leg or shoe of one of the defenders, if you can pass it out...I find this frustrating too!

zag944
03-17-2010, 10:19 AM
its a tough situation to be in as a defender.

Id imagine a lot of them dont want to look as if they arent making an effort.

Im sure a lot of them want to attempt to defend but are afraid, as this is the most likely situation in the flow of the game where a player will draw a flagrant.

frankly it seems that these days at the college and pro level the referees are way too content to call flagrants for an accidental foul with nasty results. Its basketball, and players are going to hit the floor hard once in a while. If there is no real malice, they need to ease up a little bit.

Zagpower
03-17-2010, 11:08 AM
Somebody please explain to me why when a player steals the ball and has a breakaway layup or dunk, the opposing player feels it is necessary to touch the breakaway guy and cause an "And-1". 99% of time these little touches are not enough to even bother the layup or dunk, so why does this happen so often?

Answers?

Lack of disclipline. Same reason why almost every group of professional or collegiate fb players block in the black on punt and kick returns despite it being only one of about three things they need to remember on the kick return team.

Bodies moving faster than brains.:)

Zagpower
03-17-2010, 11:10 AM
Why does every big man need to take a dribble after rebounding a miss or receiving a pass when they are only inches from the hoop?

SteeleMan
03-17-2010, 11:13 AM
okay, now I know who you're talking about...


Why when a player, especially a guard but even a taller guy, gets underneath the basket and is surrounded by tall trees that have him smothered, why does the player try to jump up and make the basket when there is obviously no way in hell he can? Why doesn't he pass it out of there?

Fonebone
03-17-2010, 12:38 PM
Down in Vegas, the first game, I was sitting close to the Zag bench. A guy went in for a layoup, and Matt fouled him - barely. Just the scenario BZ brings up. What was interesting is that Matt walked over to the bench, clearly frustrated and said "What was I supposed to do." Which i thought was odd, because it seems like it is clear that he should have done what BZ said, either foul hard enough to disrupt the shot, or leave him alone. It surprized me that a guy as smart and savy as Matt would say that.

zagco
03-17-2010, 01:38 PM
This is also a pet peeve for Zagco. He sees this a lot, especially in kids ball. It's like a reflex action, where the kid just tries to chase down the other player as if in a footrace, even when it's hopeless. It bugs him, because it could result in a serious injury. Frankly, Zagco thinks many of these fouls should be called intentional, especially when it involves one player running under the other one in some way that upsets balance. That might nip it in the bud.

mgadfly
03-17-2010, 03:19 PM
Down in Vegas, the first game, I was sitting close to the Zag bench. A guy went in for a layoup, and Matt fouled him - barely. Just the scenario BZ brings up. What was interesting is that Matt walked over to the bench, clearly frustrated and said "What was I supposed to do." Which i thought was odd, because it seems like it is clear that he should have done what BZ said, either foul hard enough to disrupt the shot, or leave him alone. It surprized me that a guy as smart and savy as Matt would say that.

The trick is getting close enough to bother the shot, but far enough away to not allow the opponent to create contact. I don't see this as an easy situation like some of you do. I hate when a player just stares as his man lays the ball in or dunks it (rather than at least faking like he's going to challenge the shot) almost as much as I hate it when a guy closes out on a three point shooter without raising his hand.

But when a guy, who 99 out of 100 times doesn't close out too aggressively, fouls a three point shooter I think "how stupid." Then I sit back, have a drink and think, well, I liked it when he was so aggressive the 99 times that it worked...

And usually the player is frustrated that the official calls a foul where he basically tried to stay out of the way and the shooter created the contact.

These plays are part of basketball. You try to avoid them, but if you have aggressive players, from time to time they will get too close to a shooter and the shooter will create the contact and get into an and-1 situation.

jim77
03-17-2010, 03:38 PM
Good question Bob.

I hope coach Few brings it up in the locker room. If we throw a bunch of long lazy passes against FSU this will be something the players will need to know.

alldaye
03-17-2010, 03:40 PM
Somebody please explain to me why when a player steals the ball and has a breakaway layup or dunk, the opposing player feels it is necessary to touch the breakaway guy and cause an "And-1". 99% of time these little touches are not enough to even bother the layup or dunk, so why does this happen so often?

Answers?

WOW. I've always thought the exact same thing! Bouldin does it quite often, and I've seen Gray do it a few times. Just give 'em 2!