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jazzdelmar
03-09-2010, 05:24 AM
The folks on this bd are by and large great fans and fairly realistic. Occasional flights of fancy notwithstanding. But we have been in denial of late.

Clearly, this isnt the Zag team of the first part of the season, Matt is hurt or tired or bored, something: Harris looks about as much a pro as any of us, Meech is the weakest pt guard in 10 years (yes, tough competition there), Sacre is middling and SG shows sparks but disappears too. Nothing new there. The bench is raw and hasnt been given clear and steady guidance.

Few is a terrific man, a great ambassador and recruiter but one who gets outcoached a lot. When was the last time the Zags overachieved in the late part of the season? Im sorry to say it was vs Zona and they lost.

The annual inverted development of the team is chronic now. Beat some good BCS teams early on, teams that have lost kids to the pros and are not yet settled. Win national attention. Get absurdly high rankings. Then drift for the most part with a good game here and there. Drone thru the WCC and lose too early in the NCs. That seems the opposite of how a good program should progress. Book it, after their one and done this edition of the Zags will finish out of the top 25.

Sure, GU is a better product than 300 other schools. If thats enough for you, god blesss. Whats the answer? I dont know. Few is staying. Can he change? Sure. Will he? Who knows. Tough morning. I love Randy and he deserves this, a perfect entree to the UO job. But Im half saddened and half angry that this season has all the earmarks or ending like so many in the past. Disappointingly.

DixieZag
03-09-2010, 06:06 AM
Come on Jazz, you really need to be called on that. You're generally a good poster with insight, but the above is simply an emotional spill.

Coach Few and the GU staff have won 10 conference championships in a row. They have gone to the tourney what 12 times in a row? You make a big stink about them coming out and beating some good BCS teams early in the year when they haven't "gelled" and get us highly ranked. Perhaps you have forgotten, but the only reason that we will BE in the tournament was b/c of playing that ridiculously hard schedule. And those early wins are very legitimate, WE ARE YOUNG and haven't gelled.

So, you are angry that the team is "never" peaking at the end of the year. We do not have the luxury of playing nobody away from K2 until January. So, yeah, in a sense we end up dragging a lot at the end of the year, but it seems to me that last year we blew out SMC in the same scenario. Few gets outcoached occassionaly, sure, so? SMC HAD TO WIN last night and played lights out, tip your damn cap to them.

I sat in the old Martin Centre and watched with about 500 people Jim McPhee play one on five for eight wins, we would have never believed that GU would ever make the tournament more than once every 15 years.

This is a young team, we were not even the favorite to win the conference, (8 new players!) The veterans are roughed up and need some rest. We might get a bad draw and get drilled in our first game. So WHAT!!!!!

Get some perspective, I am no Zag apologist, they played atrocious last night, Meech should have been benched long ago. But you know what? I COULDN'T WIN THE CONFERENCE EVERY YEAR coaching for this school. The guy that does deserves a hell of a lot more respect than that, and if this type of attitude continues and spreads, we will get a chance to see what someone else can do, and I shiver at the thought.

Go Zags, we are with you guys, win or lose, you are Zags and our love is unconditional.

siliconzag
03-09-2010, 06:15 AM
Eloquent and on target, Jazz. Captured my feelings exactly, even though the dynamic that brought us here was (in retrospect) unrealistic expectations. You remind me of Walter Lippman. Bravo When does baseball start?

WMS2GUBULLDOG
03-09-2010, 06:36 AM
I think this year BCS wise you could say that, but definitely not most years. The reasons teams seem to not be firing going into the tournament is that we play in such a terrible confrence. All your asking for is upset after upset in the WCC. If we played in say the MWC we could not win conference and still be prepared for the tournament by having 4 super quality opponents. You get caught sleepwalking sometimes in the WCC and lose, but rarely does conference play make us any better. Look at teams in the Big East, Big 12, or ACC, there conference play is what makes up the heavy part of their schedules and it comes right before the big dance. If your playing with that competitive edge during teh regular season, it gets you more prepared for the dance, not after playing in the WCC.

ZagMan in Philly
03-09-2010, 06:37 AM
Jazz,
I can see why you are angry. You set your goals high for our basketball team, which most of us do. We all want them to make it to the Final 4 and perhaps challenge for the National Title at some point in our lives. I love our team dearly, it hurts every time they lose. The future of this program is in good hands, the best is yet to come. I just know it. Who knows, it may be this year, the season is not over yet, and this team is capable of putting together a few good games (I know it is hard to believe this, after last night’s game). Have faith and believe. Go Zags!

cjm720
03-09-2010, 06:39 AM
Wow, I agree with Jazz?

Well, except the one and done part...

Go Zags

ZagLawGrad
03-09-2010, 06:40 AM
Some truth to Jazz's post. Bouldin said, in part, on radio this morning that Zags lost sight last night of what they were after this season.

Spilt milk. Time now to get back on track. Talent is there, now you really gotta want it. Great 10 year run, but that and 50 cents still won't buy a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

VaBeachZAG
03-09-2010, 06:57 AM
The deepest hurt for me is not so much that we lose a game here and there (as unpleasant as it is, it happens), the real problem for me is the appearance (at least to me) that this team just does not consistently play with the grit and determination of the teams in the early years of our decade long run. Time and again after recent losses posters took note of the lack of aggressiveness of this team. Heck, even key players like Boldin and Grey have been critical of the lack of team aggressiveness in some games. Maybe it's asking too much to play with fire every game - but if you can't play with great aggressiveness and determination for the WCC tournament championship and seeding in Spokane, then when? I am so so hoping for the best in the NCAA's, but am also preparing myself for the worst.

deathchina
03-09-2010, 07:11 AM
"Perhaps you have forgotten, but the only reason that we will BE in the tournament was b/c of playing that ridiculously hard schedule."

It's worth nothing that kenpom has our strength of schedule at 111 and more importantly, our non conference SOS at 40.

Ridiculously hard? No. Even though we TRIED to play the toughest schedule possibly, many of our opponents had disappointing seasons. How many surefire NCAA tournament teams did we actually play? 4?

Michigan State, Wisconsin, Duke, Saint Mary's....


I guess the real question is this.....If the NCAA tournament was held at the BEGINNING of the season how would we perform? Would our team show better than they do in the end of season classic?

I'm with Jazz on this one. I feel like we peak midway through non-conference play.

DixieZag
03-09-2010, 07:23 AM
I think there may be a longing for "the good old days" that is a little shortsighted. There were many seasons in the "good old days" that ended with bad losses with a team that just didn't have it that day, re: Nevada, Texas Tech

Maybe I am wrong, a lot of good people seem to think something is "wrong" or "different" about this team, having to do with heart. I seem to be in the minority, though I am as hurt and disappointed as anyone. But

I saw Elias Harris having a terrible night yet a focus in his eyes that showed a warrior, he had had enough and was determined to get to the rim, in the process he was tackled once, and called with charging on the other. Not blaming bad calls but the heart was there. Matt simply playing through pain and leaving it all on the floor, I would never question his heart. Manny got hurt b/c of his "heart" - never willing to concede a rebound. Steven got plugged in the mouth and gets called with a foul. Sacre shut Omar down. But this is not meant to say "the refs let it happen" - I mean to say, this team has all the heart of Zags past.

This team has a rotation of 4 freshman, they won the conference and earned a birth. I am not questioning their heart.

DixieZag
03-09-2010, 07:35 AM
To DeathChina and Jazz: I understand your points, they are valid. Perhaps it is a problem inherent to playing in a conference where the only thing on the line is a terrible upset. And yes, it sure does seem like we peak in December.

But what if we didn't have UNC last year? A lot of people thought we could have gone another game. And lets look at other programs that do not consistently get to the tournament, UCONN will not this year, eight of ten Pac teams will not, Texas was ranked #1 and now isn't even ranked and fighting for their lives.

We all want what is best for our guys. I guess my gut reaction was that this is REALLY a good time to appreciate the consistency and the team we have, even if we have lost our "luster" as a bracket busting bully. In part we have lost that b/c we have become the hunted, and that only comes with being consistently competitive. While the guys lick their wounds and look into the mirror, I want to remain upbeat and proud. We have always SAID we wanted the WCC to improve, SMC has done what we wanted.

Lets let some time pass and then get right back on backing them and be the sixth man they need.

Ikancagin
03-09-2010, 07:41 AM
Jazz, good post; sad but probably true. However, you mention Randy,s intro to Oregon. I heard on the C. Cowherd show this morning that it will likely go to P.J. Carlissimo. Any news on that?

dpouley
03-09-2010, 07:42 AM
I'm with Jazz on this one. I feel like we peak midway through non-conference play.

I think that this may be the biggest problem with the WCC. The Zags have been able to overcome the poor RPI of the league, they have been able to show year in and year out that they are an elite team in college basketball, and they have absolutely dominated their league. However, the overall competition that they face in the WCC is something that has made it hard for the Zags to stay sharp, stay focused and stay competitive. They are so talented now, that they are able to "turn it on" in many games and completely out talent the other teams that are in their league. When it comes to the Tournament that is not as easy.

I know people hate the Huskies, but one reason they load their schedule early in the season with cupcakes is the simple fact that they do not have many opportunities to "out talent" the teams in the Pac10. They have to play talent that is more comparable to the talent on their team, during their conference schedule. While the Zags have it backwards in their league. The teams that they play in their season that have comparable talent are played in the OOC. It does not mean that the Zags are not as good as the Huskies, they are nine times better (9-1 over the last ten games), it just means that there may be some disadvantage to playing in the WCC now that the Zags are as talent loaded as they are.

The most amazing job that Mark Few does is to keep these teams focused on the team goals and keep them "up" for all of the games that they play in a given year. This year the team is young, and they are not responding as well as past teams to creating their own motivation, staying committed to winning and finding the achievement in going undefeated in the WCC.

sonuvazag
03-09-2010, 07:50 AM
there's a couple of reasons why I agree.

1. Last night they folded at that point where early in the year they excelled. Down 8-12 points with 5-6 minutes. This group almost made the comeback a foregone conclusion. Last night, they folded.

2. Harris is not the dominant player he was. I can't explain it, though many reasonable theories have floated around. He was basically the surprise piece that made this team reloaded instead of rebuilding.

I still predict a first round victory in the NCAA's. The "rest" is up in the air.

Ezag
03-09-2010, 07:56 AM
I agree with Jazz...and yes I am a poor loser. The worst part, even worse than a 20 point beat down in a conference tourney final on ESPN and national TV with thousands of people watching, was seeing Samhan smiling at the end of the game knowing that no matter what happened in every game the past 4 years, he will always have this final victory against Gonzaga to close out his career.

bballbeachbum
03-09-2010, 08:26 AM
I know what I saw, my eyes don't lie.

some of your post makes sense, jazz, but then there's the rest of it, the spin part mixed in with the truths

re. lying eyes, Few gets outcoached a lot? some of you agree with this? wow. of course it happens, but a lot? as accused in this thread? get a grip, people.

lying eyes...good thread title

jazzdelmar
03-09-2010, 08:38 AM
Harris's arc of development is the perfect metaphor for this year. Lottery pick early on? Laughable now. Zags, FF material early on, and now? You tell me.

bballbeachbum
03-09-2010, 08:41 AM
Harris's arc of development is the perfect metaphor for this year. Lottery pick early on? Laughable now. Zags, FF material early on, and now? You tell me.

I already did. Let's talk about Steven's arc, as a metaphor.

out coached a lot...laughable.

Just A Zag
03-09-2010, 08:43 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7K8u4LB8Jv0


gonzaga fans, you can't hide your lying eyesssss

rawkmandale
03-09-2010, 08:53 AM
Jazz, I'll tell you. They are a team that will burn through the first weekend of the tournament like white phosphorus. Look out, middling power conference teams, the Zags are going to be loaded for bear.

The Zags always bounce back from a loss, and, in this case, a double loss: first Manny, then St. Mary's. They will crush the first poor slob in their way, and bounce right past the second. The second weekend will be more problematical, of course, with better opponents. But, the young Zags will still make us proud, win or lose.

I think the team was realing last night from having Manny taken out of the equation. They won't be emotionally spent in the next game. I pity the opponent.

malmer7
03-09-2010, 09:27 AM
this is a great thread jazz, i feel where you're coming from.
i don't necessarily agree with all of what you're saying, but i might be one of those that are guilty of being too much of a realist, figuring "it is what it is" and it's still great fun to go along for the ride...
but one thing you said really opened my eyes, "when is the last time we overachieved at the end of a season?" i'd agree that the last time this happened was against arizona, and we lost. now i'll get over last night's game because i'm a huge fan of the current roster (haven't been able to 100% stand behind that statement the last few years either), and maybe we need to start setting the bar lower so that "overachieving" will come a little easier this time, but i am now ready. i am ready to see these guys overachieve once again because i know they're capable of it. it's not going to happen every year, and it'd be nice if it happened more than once every 4-5 years, but here's to hoping this is one of those years because, in my mind, a loss to st. mary's just might provide the hunger we need and i (again) am along for the ride!

roxdoc
03-09-2010, 09:28 AM
Jazz I agree completely with your post - "inverted development" says it all.

titopoet
03-09-2010, 09:30 AM
Sure, GU is a better product than 300 other schools. If thats enough for you, god blesss. Whats the answer? I dont know. Few is staying. Can he change? Sure. Will he? Who knows. Tough morning. I love Randy and he deserves this, a perfect entree to the UO job. But Im half saddened and half angry that this season has all the earmarks or ending like so many in the past. Disappointingly.

I found out my son maybe going blind in one of his eye yesterday, so forgive me if this sound shill. But come on folks time to live in reality.

Many of the posters seemed to think that Few's job is easy. Get great players and then make them play harder than the other team, why can't Few just do that? If they lose, then players stink, Few is terrible and the rest. I hated watching them lose yesterday, but this reaction is over the top. I know for a fact that the loss was a whole lot harder on the players and coaches than on any of the fans. Looking at their faces at the end off the game and you know that is the truth. To even say that Matt is bored is mockery at its most vile. The kid works so hard on his game, I believe you owe him an apology for even bring it up as a possibility.

You seem to think basketball success is easy. Just ask Roy Williams. Just ask Coach K. Again, time to get into reality. Do you have any idea of how hard it is to get to the sweet sixteen? Four sweet sixteens is tough, four sweet sixteens at a non-BCS school with nowhere near the resources of UNC, Illinios, MSU is close to a miracle. Few does have areas to improve, but who doesn't? And he is in the top 1% of his profession.


You ask if Few can change? Into what? You say you love Randy Bennett, but what is his all time record against Few? Yes, he did win last night. His first win against Few in two years. And somehow that is proof that he is better coach? Huh?? Few gets out coached a lot?

Come on. Gonzaga is still, AGAINST ALL ODDS, a top 25 program. Now I am not saying you should not take Few to task. I thought he, when he saw that the refs were not going to call moving screens, (and in couple of cases moving tackles) to move into a zone. There is no way to beat a team that hip checks it way to open 3 looks.

That is your right to criticize Few for not winning it all or at least getting to elite eight. It is a free country and people have a right to believe the earth is flat if they want to. But it is also my right to call for a bit of reality. If GU makes it to the sweet sixteen, a good possibility, then it further cements Few as one of the best coaches of his generation.

jazzdelmar
03-09-2010, 09:32 AM
tito, god bless you and your son....he is in my prayers......reality intrudes in our silly little world.

dpouley
03-09-2010, 09:36 AM
Jazz, I'll tell you. They are a team that will burn through the first weekend of the tournament like white phosphorus. Look out, middling power conference teams, the Zags are going to be loaded for bear.

The Zags always bounce back from a loss, and, in this case, a double loss: first Manny, then St. Mary's. They will crush the first poor slob in their way, and bounce right past the second.


Last time this happened, losing in the WCC tournament, the Zags lost their next game to Davidson. So recent history does not prove what you are saying to be true.

I am confident that this team is more than capable of a run to the Sweet Sixteen, but just to comment on the last time this same situation presented itself, the outcome was not as you explained.

229SintoZag
03-09-2010, 09:47 AM
Jazz: GUBoard
Arizona123: Dawgman

Zags to the Sweet 16! Book it.

MDABE80
03-09-2010, 09:52 AM
Sometimes we don't like what the Jazzmeister says but he's right on this. How us other posters respond to his thoughts vary...depending on many things. Hurts a bit more when we just got crushed.. nonetheless, the experiment we've had since the 99 team is reproduceable and is a recruurent phenomenon.

We at Gonzaga have many other purposes. I'd like the FF or even an E8. Been a while since we got close ( Ammo/DRave/JP in 2006)...to an E8.
We have talent that's gone to sleep. Can't exclude injuries but not much good going on right now. We met an incredibly fired up SMC last night and lost the Tournament Championship...we did win the title though....Not sure if it's a title most in college basketball respect.

SO we're a big fish in a small pond. Not much to changing leagues. I think we're a Pac 10 caliber program...and I do think a switch to that woul dhelp in many ways. FOr now though, we peak in the ))C and get sleepy in the WCC. We've done veryvery well with this routine.. Hawaii is fun for us and the fans. IF ( it's a big "IF") the University wants to take the next step that will invigorate the program, we need some major changes. Not Few. Not the caliber of the kids even. Something else...and it's bigtime games on the West coast after the OOC.

How can we compete at the BCS level when we don't do a BCS schedule. Well...we're seeing it now. We share commmon philosphy with the WCC schools. Not sure it matter when it comes to basketball. Something to think about though... something to review in the offseason. For now though...and the reson is different every year...we fade after the OOC and it's small wonder we won't step to the FF or even the E8. Second half of the year...we don't have the competition to lift us to the higher levels.

This doesn't many anything when reviewing what happened last night. I looked at the films again. We were beat soundly in every phase. Once SMC got a head of steam, they could have beaten the Celtics... whats to be done when those kids throw down from 30 ft? Not much...defense scheme was terrible. ...built to lose from 3 pt land.

titopoet
03-09-2010, 09:55 AM
tito, god bless you and your son....he is in my prayers......reality intrudes in our silly little world.

Jazz, thank you and bless you.

I found out right before the game. My son doctor said that he might have stronger eye if we patched his good eye longer, but we patched what he told us to. Then he took an "oh well, these things happened" attitude. I wanted to punch him.

Then the Zags lose as Omar gloats. Not a good night.

gamagin
03-09-2010, 09:56 AM
I don't understand the really, really, weak, frightened, hand-wringing, distraught reactions.

What kind of person doesn't realize, in time, that failings are the foundations of success to those who learn from them, keep going, keep trying and never, ever give up ?

SMC, the perennial loser to us for ELEVEN YEARS IN A ROW (including this year, we are the WCC champs, & 2-1 in the series), taught us that lesson this Monday night.

We all need to learn the lesson, treat it as a gift of tough love and an important lesson in perserverence going into the dance.

We need to adopt their attitude, too, as our own, thank them for showing us the errors of our ways, vow never again to let up, and move on.

marczagfan
03-09-2010, 10:02 AM
This is a great thread....but really, what can be done about our schedule. We have to schedule big OOC opponents because of our conference, Few and Co. can't change who we play in conference and they do there best to avoid let downs be scheduling games like Memphis during our conference season.

A lot of the BCS teams we played this years had down years, that is not our fault, most of these games are scheduled 1-2 years in advance. The zags do get up for these games and it is natural to have a conference let down, it would happen to any team in America with our situation. We still only lost 2 regular season conference games and we lost in the tourney championship. Every time the zags have a let down (lose in the conf tourney or early out in the ncaas'), half of the bandwagon fans are on verge of jumping off, its unreal. If we are true zag fans, this is the time to show it, its not time to talk about why we have let down's, get out coached, and a bunch of other crap. This is the time to show support. This team has exceeded expectations and is capable of making a big run. We lost, deal with it. If we are one and done in the NCAA's, we still had a great season. Gonzaga has a GREAT program and everything we have accomplished this year is great regardless on how the season ends. After reading half the posts in this thread it sounds like this season has been a failure.

We need to support the team and quit Bit@*in about their losses. It happens, no one is undefeated this year.

Just my 2 cents

McZag
03-09-2010, 10:09 AM
Did anyone honestly believe that this group would crack the top 25 this season?

Seriously? Did you?

This group of young, untested, undefined, unknowns?

Elias who? Kong who? What? Where? How?

This group of misfits won the league, beat Memphis on the road, beat Illinois in Chicago, won at SMC, Port, SCU, Pepp and USD.

This group won The Maui!!!

Did ANY of you think this would happen back in Sept?

Jazz please tell me I'm wrong and that you expected all these things to happen with guys we had never seen play before.

Otherwise, stand an applaud the amazing run this team has had so far!!

And BTW, they have at least one more to play and need EVERY ONE of us to stand up and cheer them on!

Believe That!

DADoZAG
03-09-2010, 10:09 AM
This is the same ZAG team that surprised some in November. They may be tired and/or hurt. This game may not have been one of Few’s greatest. Perhaps the refs really didn’t want the ZAGS to win, perhaps the WCC wants Few to leave the conference, perhaps the moon walk really was filmed in Hollywood…

Uh, sorry, like others do sometimes when things don’t work out the way they’d like, I got carried away…

Congratulations Gaels, now be prepared to represent the WCC in the NCAA tourney, and…

…Go ZAGS!

deathchina
03-09-2010, 10:21 AM
Dealing with the front loaded schedule and subsequent letdown in conference play is a subject that we've discussed before. The WCC is not improving (if anything it is getting worse, certainly has dropped off from the early part of the decade), so we have to find other ways to stay sharp. More focus and intensity would be nice, but scheduling also helps.

With that mind, does anyone know why we played South Carolina Upstate and Cal State bakersfield the last two seasons down the home stretch?

dpouley
03-09-2010, 10:30 AM
And BTW, they have at least one more to play and need EVERY ONE of us to stand up and cheer them on!

Believe That!

I don't think anyone is saying that they are going to stop cheering for the Zags. And I also don't think it is wrong to adjust expectations to match the success of this program.

alaskazagnut
03-09-2010, 10:36 AM
Jazz,
I can see why you are angry. You set your goals high for our basketball team, which most of us do. We all want them to make it to the Final 4 and perhaps challenge for the National Title at some point in our lives. I love our team dearly, it hurts every time they lose. The future of this program is in good hands, the best is yet to come. I just know it. Who knows, it may be this year, the season is not over yet, and this team is capable of putting together a few good games (I know it is hard to believe this, after last night’s game). Have faith and believe. Go Zags!

Philly, You did not set your goals high. Looks like the team tends to do the same. People keep saying next year. Next year. No!!!

This year. This year!!

alaskazagnut
03-09-2010, 10:41 AM
Dealing with the front loaded schedule and subsequent letdown in conference play is a subject that we've discussed before. The WCC is not improving (if anything it is getting worse, certainly has dropped off from the early part of the decade), so we have to find other ways to stay sharp. More focus and intensity would be nice, but scheduling also helps.

With that mind, does anyone know why we played South Carolina Upstate and Cal State bakersfield the last two seasons down the home stretch?

Because of the bye we got in WCC Tourney play. Now they schedule poor RPI nonconference patsies because we complained about poor RPI in-conference teams in the first round of the Tourney. Pepperdine RPI 305, SC Bakersfield RPI 317.

I'll take the Bye.

Is there any rule barring WCC challenge game? Why couldn't we have challenged St Mary's to a game instead of SC Bakersfield. Talk about cool and play anyone anywhere!!

speed21
03-09-2010, 10:57 AM
FIRE MARK FEW!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He is terrible, gets outcoached almost every game!!

HIRE ERNIE KENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OR

LORENZO ROMAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

zagfan08
03-09-2010, 11:00 AM
A quick note about the SOS discussed earlier. If Gonzaga wouldn't play terrible teams as their cupcakes I believe it would be much higher. We play elite non-conference competition, but instead of bad teams we tend to schedule awful teams like IPFW (RPI 224), Eastern Washington (274), CSU Bakersfield (317), Mississippi Valley State (324), and Augustana. I understand you want a couple games to work on stuff before a road trip, after finals, or after a stretch of difficult competition, but scheduling teams expected to finish around 150-200 would be ideal. The WCC hurts us enough when it comes to SOS and RPI (as well as many more areas), we need to help ourselves as much as possible out of conference.

speed21
03-09-2010, 11:02 AM
I would love to get be a Division 1 coach and be outcoached almost every game and still win 80% of my games!

lothar98zag
03-09-2010, 11:17 AM
Some truth to Jazz's post. Bouldin said, in part, on radio this morning that Zags lost sight last night of what they were after this season.

Huh?!!!? Don't like that at all.

Was there more to this comment? What station? Is the interview archived somewhere on the web?

lothar98zag
03-09-2010, 11:27 AM
A quick note about the SOS discussed earlier. If Gonzaga wouldn't play terrible teams as their cupcakes I believe it would be much higher. We play elite non-conference competition, but instead of bad teams we tend to schedule awful teams like IPFW (RPI 224), Eastern Washington (274), CSU Bakersfield (317), Mississippi Valley State (324), and Augustana. I understand you want a couple games to work on stuff before a road trip, after finals, or after a stretch of difficult competition, but scheduling teams expected to finish around 150-200 would be ideal. The WCC hurts us enough when it comes to SOS and RPI (as well as many more areas), we need to help ourselves as much as possible out of conference.
+1

There are plenty of teams in the 150-250 RPI range that are marginally better than the bottom feeders GU usually ends up playing.

lothar98zag
03-09-2010, 11:29 AM
Last time this happened, losing in the WCC tournament, the Zags lost their next game to Davidson. So recent history does not prove what you are saying to be true.

I am confident that this team is more than capable of a run to the Sweet Sixteen, but just to comment on the last time this same situation presented itself, the outcome was not as you explained.
GU has received 2 at-large bids to the tourney -
2003 - Lost 2nd Rd to AZ
2008 - Lost 1st Rd to Davidson

fwiw

FuManShoes
03-09-2010, 11:32 AM
Question for Jazz: Would you have started this thread had the Zags won by 20 last night?

My point is that while the overall conclusion that the Zags do not seem to get better as the season wears on may be true, last night's game didn't prove or disprove that. It was just one game, and plenty of times before the Zags have crushed their league brethren in the tourney.

But the bigger question is provocative point, a possible "fatal flaw" in the Zags' rare recipe for success and consistency. I think in private Few probabaly would concede that his recruiting, system and scheduling take advantage of early opportunities for "signature" wins when marquee opponents on the docket are not playing their best ball, and that (usually) helps the Zags' resume. But that it is what it is, and it's also something that a lot of mid majors are staring to learn based on GU's success. I think it's undeniable that the Zags won some games early that few of us expected them to win given the new faces and roles. That was impressive, and a credit to this program and Few's coaching ability.

Now, does Few do enough to enhance the Zags' chances for success later in the year? Maybe, maybe not. He played Kelly, GJ and Manny early, probably in an attempt to season them and enhance their chances of being of value later on. He then tightened the rotation when it became clear few of those guys were ready to contribute. But he did work Kong into the rotation once his conditioning allowed it and has played Foster more. Should he have left them out there more and maybe suffered a few losses with an eye toward also resting the starters? Maybe. I think Few leans on his offensively-gifted upperclassmen and is loath to sit them even if in the long run it may have been best. Would that have prevented Bouldin's injury- and fatigue-induced slump and made Kelly and Kong bigger pieces of this puzzle? Again, we don't know.

ZagMan in Philly
03-09-2010, 11:33 AM
Philly, You did not set your goals high. Looks like the team tends to do the same. People keep saying next year. Next year. No!!!

This year. This year!!

Yes, at the beginning of THIS year, I did not think we could get to the Elite 8, since we lost a few seniors, and have so many new comers. I think we are exactly where I thought we would be. Win the regular WCC season crown with maybe 2 or 3 losses, get to final of the WCC tourney, win or lose there, get about a 7th or 8 th seed in the NCAA, and hope for the best.

Now, next year my expectations maybe higher....we all want to go to the Final 4 every year, But we have to be realistic too with the expectations of the team that we have that year.

Oakland Gael
03-09-2010, 11:41 AM
SMC, the perennial loser to us for ELEVEN YEARS IN A ROW (including this year, we are the WCC champs, & 2-1 in the series), taught us that lesson this Monday night.


http://cdn2.sbnation.com/photo_images/475130/39212_WCC_Saint_Marys_Gonzaga_Basketball.jpg

zagporvida
03-09-2010, 11:44 AM
Every time the zags have a let down (lose in the conf tourney or early out in the ncaas'), half of the bandwagon fans are on verge of jumping off, its unreal. If we are true zag fans, this is the time to show it, its not time to talk about why we have let down's, get out coached, and a bunch of other crap. This is the time to show support. This team has exceeded expectations and is capable of making a big run. We lost, deal with it. If we are one and done in the NCAA's, we still had a great season. Gonzaga has a GREAT program and everything we have accomplished this year is great regardless on how the season ends. After reading half the posts in this thread it sounds like this season has been a failure.

We need to support the team and quit Bit@*in about their losses. It happens, no one is undefeated this year.

Just my 2 cents

I couldn't agree with you more. How many fans right now would love to know that their teams are a lock to get in the NCAA's and have the kind of year we have had. I love our Zags and I have ever since I have been associated with GU. Which just so happens to be when we were happy to get to 10 wins a season.

Robzagnut
03-09-2010, 11:44 AM
I know people hate the Huskies, but one reason they load their schedule early in the season with cupcakes is the simple fact that they do not have many opportunities to "out talent" the teams in the Pac10. They have to play talent that is more comparable to the talent on their team, during their conference schedule. While the Zags have it backwards in their league. The teams that they play in their season that have comparable talent are played in the OOC. It does not mean that the Zags are not as good as the Huskies, they are nine times better (9-1 over the last ten games), it just means that there may be some disadvantage to playing in the WCC now that the Zags are as talent loaded as they are.

I have the same argument with a friend who is a Husky fan every year when I see the same UW cupcake schedule (all at home).

UW's scheduling is a joke and they make up that 'Pac-10 is already tough' excuse every year, because they have no other excuse. The only reason UW had Texas A&M on their schedule is because they were required to do it as part of the Big 12/Pac 10 challenge, otherwise another cupcake for Romar... at home. Look at the Big 10, Big East and ACC teams. They all go out and play decent OCC schedules and their conferences are always tougher top to bottom than the Pac-10.

The reason is, and we all know it, including you.

UW needs those cupcakes games to pad their record. 20-8 looks much better than 17-11. If they schedule decent oponents they know there's a good chance they'll lose and 17-11 puts them on the bubble. It's worked well in the past, but a few years a go Syracuse got spanked for playing a cupcake schedule and the committee sent them the same message and left them out of the tourney... "Play somebody, anybody, in you OCC." St. Marys got sent that same message last year with a 25-5 record. UW is on the bubble this year and I bet the committee is going to send them the same message.

Then, Romar finally might get it.

McZag
03-09-2010, 11:46 AM
I don't think anyone is saying that they are going to stop cheering for the Zags. And I also don't think it is wrong to adjust expectations to match the success of this program.


The myth about good programs is that they warrant the same high expectations every year-i.e. Carolina.

This years group is young, inexperienced and still finding their identity.

Expectations for this group have to be kept in check.

lothar98zag
03-09-2010, 12:07 PM
Hey Oakland Gael, GU has the same sign...

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08E88wJ2lz6af/x350.jpg



So #1 of "WCC Champions" signs:
GU 1
SMC 1

tie


How about 16 game WCC record?
GU 13-3
SMC 13-3

still a tie


Shall we go to the Head-to-Head results or do you want to stop here?

Oakland Gael
03-09-2010, 12:25 PM
Lothar I have no beef with you. I just couldn't help reacting to gamagin's comment.

I think winning the regular season championship is commendable, but the WCC championship IMO is detemined by the tournament. I'd say the majority of objective people would say the same thing. That's why the regular season champs don't get the auto-bid. We'll both have banners to hang next year, but I'd rather have ours. Some people here no doubt will disagree, but hey I've read stupid posts by both teams' fans here and on our board.

Your picture shows what we all already know, the Zags have many WCC crowns, but this year its the Gaels who are the champions.

Good luck in the tourney. I'll be pulling for a Zags sweet sixteen or better. Hopefully the Gaels we can get there too.

lothar98zag
03-09-2010, 12:32 PM
Lothar I have no beef with you. I just couldn't help reacting to gamagin's comment.

I think winning the regular season championship is commendable, but the WCC championship IMO is detemined by the tournament. I'd say the majority of objective people would say the same thing. That's why the regular season champs don't get the auto-bid. We'll both have banners to hang next year, but I'd rather have ours. Some people here no doubt will disagree, but hey I've read stupid posts by both teams' fans here and on our board.

Your picture shows what we all already know, the Zags have many WCC crowns, but this year its the Gaels who are the champions.

Good luck in the tourney. I'll be pulling for a Zags sweet sixteen or better. Hopefully the Gaels we can get there too.
If the results had been reversed this year, I'm pretty sure your argument would change, but whatever.

Enjoy yourself - especially on Sunday.

Oakland Gael
03-09-2010, 12:42 PM
I'd be proud of a Gaels regular season championship no doubt, but if you say the Zags are WCC champs this year then we'll just have to agree to disagree I guess. Cheers:cheers:

dpouley
03-09-2010, 12:43 PM
UW's scheduling is a joke and they make up that 'Pac-10 is already tough' excuse every year, because they have no other excuse. The only reason UW had Texas A&M on their schedule is because they were required to do it as part of the Big 12/Pac 10 challenge, otherwise another cupcake for Romar... at home. Look at the Big 10, Big East and ACC teams. They all go out and play decent OCC schedules and their conferences are always tougher top to bottom than the Pac-10.

The reason is, and we all know it, including you.

UW needs those cupcakes games to pad their record. 20-8 looks much better than 17-11. If they schedule decent oponents they know there's a good chance they'll lose and 17-11 puts them on the bubble. It's worked well in the past, but a few years a go Syracuse got spanked for playing a cupcake schedule and the committee sent them the same message and left them out of the tourney... "Play somebody, anybody, in you OCC." St. Marys got sent that same message last year with a 25-5 record. UW is on the bubble this year and I bet the committee is going to send them the same message.


LOL.

How is anything that you said that much different than what I said? Aside from the obvious negative slant that you put on the UW's scheduling practices?

The majority of major conference schools schedule their OOC exactly the same way that the UW does. Anything else you are trying to argue is absolutely false. Gonzaga got a victory against Wisconsin because of their involvement in the Maui invitational. If you are going to discount the Texas A&M game, are you going to discount the Wisconsin game?

Year in and year out the UW has a much better SOS than Gonzaga, so any argument that you are getting into with your Husky friend that tries to portray the fact that this is not true, you are LOSING.

ZagLawGrad
03-09-2010, 12:45 PM
Huh?!!!? Don't like that at all.

Was there more to this comment? What station? Is the interview archived somewhere on the web?

Heard it on KJR 1510 around 7 am or so---one of the news clips---I thought it was Tom Hudson doing the interview. Don't know if there is a link. But certain words got my undivided attention---"we lost sight"....

lothar98zag
03-09-2010, 12:48 PM
I'd be proud of a Gaels regular season championship no doubt, but if you say the Zags are WCC champs this year then we'll just have to agree to disagree I guess. Cheers:cheers:
Both teams are WCC champs.

ZagLawGrad
03-09-2010, 12:51 PM
2 out of 3. Pretty simple math confirms the champs.

marczagfan
03-09-2010, 01:03 PM
Lothar I have no beef with you. I just couldn't help reacting to gamagin's comment.

I think winning the regular season championship is commendable, but the WCC championship IMO is detemined by the tournament. I'd say the majority of objective people would say the same thing. That's why the regular season champs don't get the auto-bid. We'll both have banners to hang next year, but I'd rather have ours. Some people here no doubt will disagree, but hey I've read stupid posts by both teams' fans here and on our board.

Your picture shows what we all already know, the Zags have many WCC crowns, but this year its the Gaels who are the champions.

Good luck in the tourney. I'll be pulling for a Zags sweet sixteen or better. Hopefully the Gaels we can get there too.


Both the regular season and tournament are true accomplishments...and we should not take anything anway from the gaels win last night, they earned it. If the gaels are not an 8 or 9 seed, they have a good shot at landing in Spokane and if that is the case they will have a lot of "home" court support in the arena from us zag fans.

The zag fans and wcc fans now have 2 teams to cheer for in the tourney, I will just cheer a little harder for the zags.

Oakland Gael
03-09-2010, 01:11 PM
2 out of 3. Pretty simple math confirms the champs.

I guess Zags should get the auto-bid then. Back to the bubble for the Gaels.

Lothar's opinion is at least plausible and a matter of debate. ZagLawGrad is just delusional.

Reply to this post if you wish, but this is your board so you can have the last word.

Again, good luck.

lothar98zag
03-09-2010, 01:18 PM
I guess Zags should get the auto-bid then. Back to the bubble for the Gaels.

Lothar's opinion is at least plausible and a matter of debate. ZagLawGrad is just delusional.

Reply to this post if you wish, but this is your board so you can have the last word.

Again, good luck.
The auto bid isn't given to the WCC tourney winner because the conference decided the tourney winner was the best team in the WCC that season.

Both teams are champs. If you want to break the "tie" and pick one or the other, head to head is an obvious place to go next for a lot of people. You on the other hand think differently. So be it. Just don't expect to change the mind of Zag fans on a Zag board.

ZagLawGrad
03-09-2010, 01:20 PM
.. ZagLawGrad is just delusional...

Actually, Lothar is the delusional one. We just like to disguise things a bit.

Good luck. SMC will need a lot of it IMO. But work on that math a bit. The numbers don't lie.

lothar98zag
03-09-2010, 01:22 PM
Actually, Lothar is the delusional one.
Shhh

Robzagnut
03-09-2010, 01:22 PM
The majority of major conference schools schedule their OOC exactly the same way that the UW does. Anything else you are trying to argue is absolutely false.

Incorrect. The majority play home and home against tougher schools. UW 'only' plays cupcakes, all at home.



Gonzaga got a victory against Wisconsin because of their involvement in the Maui invitational. If you are going to discount the Texas A&M game, are you going to discount the Wisconsin game?

Wisconsin chose to go to Maui to play 3 tough teams. It's an AD and coaches choice to go to these type tourneys. The conference vs. conference games are setup by the conferences and the teams have no choice.

titopoet
03-09-2010, 01:37 PM
LOL.The majority of major conference schools schedule their OOC exactly the same way that the UW does. Anything else you are trying to argue is absolutely false. Gonzaga got a victory against Wisconsin because of their involvement in the Maui invitational. If you are going to discount the Texas A&M game, are you going to discount the Wisconsin game?

Actually, it is the majority of lackluster BCS schools do that. MSU, Kanas, Tenn, UConn, Duke, UNC and even UCLA go out a play a good OOC like Zags. The difference was the OOC of each school. You are right that GU got an invite to Maui, but add to that they played Illinois at the Bull's home. Do you think that if UW played in Big East, they would be anything but a cellar dweller? Big 12? Big Ten? If UW is going to make a move, they are going to have to go out play a better OCC. These schools find themselves on ESPN. If they did not play such a weak OCC, maybe they would not be a bubble team hoping other teams lose to go dancing.

gamagin
03-09-2010, 01:37 PM
I'd be proud of a Gaels regular season championship no doubt, but if you say the Zags are WCC champs this year then we'll just have to agree to disagree I guess. Cheers:cheers:

where in this ap story does it say you are WCC champs ? You are not. You are tourney champs. the trophy for winning the tourney is the auto bid. there's a history behind that which I don't recall, but the tourney, I believe, was designed, to extend the season a bit before the NCAA bid brought its usefulness to life. But to win the tourney is not to win the league championship, necessarily.

see for yourself:

LAS VEGAS (AP) - Mickey McConnell matched his career high with 26 points, Ben Allen added a career-best 20 and Saint Mary's upset No. 18 Gonzaga in an 81-62 victory Monday night in the Zappos.com West Coast Conference tournament title game.

Jorden Page scored 11 points and Omar Samhan had nine points and seven rebounds for the Gaels (26-5), who earned the sixth NCAA tournament berth in the small Bay Area school's history with a remarkable shooting performance against the top-seeded Zags (26-6), the 10-time regular-season WCC champions.

McConnell and Allen hit four 3-pointers apiece, propelling the Gaels to a first-half lead before an electric 18-7 run down the second-half stretch.

Saint Mary's won the WCC tournament for just the second time since it began in 1987, beating Gonzaga for the first time in 10 tourney meetings.

Steven Gray scored 16 points and Matt Bouldin added 14 for Gonzaga, which had won nine of the last 11 WCC tournaments. Elias Harris managed just eight points on 3 of 13 shooting, and the Zags couldn't match Saint Mary's second-half rally.

The Zags likely are still headed back to the NCAAs, but they won't get the WCC's automatic bid for just the third time in 12 years.

Saint Mary's lost 83-58 to Gonzaga in last year's tournament title game at the Orleans Arena, and subsequently were denied an at-large NCAA berth. But even after losing stars Patty Mills and Diamon Simpson from last year's 28-7 team, these Gaels rebounded from two decisive regular-season losses to the Zags with one of the more remarkable games in school history.

Click here to find out more!



The players frantically embraced each other at center court after the final buzzer, with several dozen fans storming the court to celebrate together. The fans eventually cleared off the court for the trophy presentation, and McConnell jumped over press row to hug his parents before accepting his tournament MVP award.

Saint Mary's has been the closest thing to a rival to Gonzaga for WCC supremacy in recent years, with the East Bay school putting together a string of entertaining teams led by coach Randy Bennett and a string of Australian players, including high-scoring point guard Mills, who failed in his attempt to jump to the NBA this year, and current players Allen, Page and Matthew Dellavedova, who had seven points and six assists.

While the Zags' thousands of traveling fans drowned out the smaller Bay Area contingent before the game, Saint Mary's had a remarkable start. McConnell hit a high-arching 3-pointer from well behind the NBA line to put the Gaels up 12-7 early, and they never trailed in the half while taking 10 more shots than Gonzaga and making just two turnovers.

Saint Mary's led despite getting no points from Samhan or Dellavedova, but Demetri Goodson put the Zags ahead on the first possession of the second half. Saint Mary's moved back ahead 46-40 on McConnell's layup with 12:05 left, and Samhan didn't end up hurting the Gaels when he got a technical foul on the next possession for shoving Robert Sacre out of his way.
#

cbbfanatic
03-09-2010, 01:37 PM
Wow, I should make my posts similar to the OP in march instead of july or november... Much better reception

cbbfanatic
03-09-2010, 01:41 PM
Actually, it is the majority of lackluster BCS schools do that. MSU, Kanas, Tenn, UConn, Duke, UNC and even UCLA go out a play a good OOC like Zags. The difference was the OOC of each school. You are right that GU got an invite to Maui, but add to that they played Illinois at the Bull's home. Do you think that if UW played in Big East, they would be anything but a cellar dweller? Big 12? Big Ten? If UW is going to make a move, they are going to have to go out play a better OCC. These schools find themselves on ESPN. If they did not play such a weak OCC, maybe they would not be a bubble team hoping other teams lose to go dancing.

That is a "glass house" question if I've ever seen one. How many ncaa bids in the last decade do you think gu would have earned if they played in the big east, acc or big 12?

webspinnre
03-09-2010, 01:45 PM
Next year, or 5 years from now, if someone asks you who the conference champion was, what is the answer going to be? Or to put it another way, if I asked who the conference champion was in 2003, what would you tell me?

dpouley
03-09-2010, 01:46 PM
Incorrect. The majority play home and home against tougher schools. UW 'only' plays cupcakes, all at home.

This year: UW played Texas Tech(road) Texas A&M (home) and Georgetown on a neutral site.

Last year: UW played Kansas and Florida (the two previous National Champs)

Two years ago: pre-season NIT, Utah, Syracuse and Texas A&M and Oklahoma State(road) and Pittsburgh(home) and LSU (road)

Three years ago: Gonzaga, LSU(home) and Northern Iowa and Pittsburgh (road)

Four years ago: Gonzaga, Air Force(home) and New Mexico(neutral)

Should I keep going?



Wisconsin chose to go to Maui to play 3 tough teams. It's an AD and coaches choice to go to these type tourneys. The conference vs. conference games are setup by the conferences and the teams have no choice.

The UW is playing in the Maui Invitational in 2010. What happened there?

And the UW this year was one of the Pac10 teams to play two teams from the Big 12. Texas Tech and Texas A&M, one on the road one at home.

sonuvazag
03-09-2010, 01:47 PM
That is a "glass house" question if I've ever seen one. How many ncaa bids in the last decade do you think gu would have earned if they played in the big east, acc or big 12?
10. Their seeding has been consistently above the cutoff for at large bids.

GoZags
03-09-2010, 01:48 PM
Cal needs to stop selling these -- immediately (http://www.calbearsshop.com/xpcal12251012.html#)

Winning the Conference Tournament is huge -- with it come the auto bid. But that's what it is -- a Conference tourney. Congratulations to St. Mary's for winning their 2 games and the Conference title (and the auto bid). They will be able to proudly hang a banner.

It's a very good thing that in the Mark Few era, the Zags have played well enough to earn an at large bid the 3 years they did not win the Conference Tourney (and the auto bid).

dpouley
03-09-2010, 01:50 PM
Actually, it is the majority of lackluster BCS schools do that. MSU, Kanas, Tenn, UConn, Duke, UNC and even UCLA go out a play a good OOC like Zags. The difference was the OOC of each school. You are right that GU got an invite to Maui, but add to that they played Illinois at the Bull's home. Do you think that if UW played in Big East, they would be anything but a cellar dweller? Big 12? Big Ten? If UW is going to make a move, they are going to have to go out play a better OCC. These schools find themselves on ESPN. If they did not play such a weak OCC, maybe they would not be a bubble team hoping other teams lose to go dancing.

You named 7 major conference schools, do you consider that a majority?

I think that the Gonzaga fans that claim to know how major conference schools schedule their OOC need to spend some time searching the archives of major conference schools websites so that they do not make arguments that are completely off base.

GoZags
03-09-2010, 01:51 PM
10. Their seeding has been consistently above the cutoff for at large bids.

Disagree. Zags would have missed in '01 and '07 had they not won the conference tourney -- so it would be 10 out of the last 12 (assuming GU is in this year) instead of 12 out of 12.

webspinnre
03-09-2010, 01:52 PM
For what its worth, Kenpom lists the Huskies' non-conference SOS as 121st in the nation. That's certainly reasonable, and better than a large number of BCS schools. Gonzaga is 40, for comparison, and SMC is 106.

titopoet
03-09-2010, 01:58 PM
That is a "glass house" question if I've ever seen one. How many ncaa bids in the last decade do you think gu would have earned if they played in the big east, acc or big 12?

Not really. I was answering the statement of "the majority" play OCC like UW. They don't Syracuse did a few years back and was left our of March Madness. They now play a good OOC and not just cupcakes, same for UConn. To answer your question. We know that GU has won a good many games against the top of those leagues, so they probably have 6 or 7 bids. They may even have done better in the tourney as they would have more protected seeds in those bids. No Davidson at Davidson type of seedings. We also know that UW has not had a good record against those leagues in the same time. 1-2 this year. A close loss to cellar dweller Texas Tech, a blowout loss to Georgetown and a close win to T&M in a "Neutral" game. Not what you call confidence building.

sonuvazag
03-09-2010, 02:13 PM
Disagree. Zags would have missed in '01 and '07 had they not won the conference tourney -- so it would be 10 out of the last 12 (assuming GU is in this year) instead of 12 out of 12.
True. But, I'm going off the idea that Gonzaga won the tourney and if the tourney was not an auto-bid, would they get an at-large. Based on the seeding I say yes, Gonzaga still gets in, though they would be one of the last teams in in 2001.

dpouley
03-09-2010, 03:15 PM
A close loss to cellar dweller Texas Tech, a blowout loss to Georgetown and a close win to T&M in a "Neutral" game. Not what you call confidence building.

Close loss? Blow out loss? Close win?

UW lost to Texas Tech by 7

UW lost to Georgetown by 8

Texas A&M was at home and they won by 9.

That is quite a "discrepancy" that 1 point is the difference between a close loss and a blowout. And then 9 points is back to a close win.

I think you should just refrain from talking about the UW.:D

cbbfanatic
03-09-2010, 03:25 PM
True. But, I'm going off the idea that Gonzaga won the tourney and if the tourney was not an auto-bid, would they get an at-large. Based on the seeding I say yes, Gonzaga still gets in, though they would be one of the last teams in in 2001.

I think you guys are missing what I was getting at --- if gu played big east/acc/big12 level competition throughout conference play, how often would their record have been good enough to get an invite?

I know its extremely speculative, but look at gtown and nd last year, and uconn this year - very talented teams that got kicked around in conference play. Throw gu's roster in a big conference, and about half the years it looks nit-ish --- and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that

kitzbuel
03-09-2010, 03:29 PM
I think you guys are missing what I was getting at --- if gu played big east/acc/big12 level competition throughout conference play, how often would their record have been good enough to get an invite?

I know its extremely speculative, but look at gtown and nd last year, and uconn this year - very talented teams that got kicked around in conference play. Throw gu's roster in a big conference, and about half the years it looks nit-ish --- and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that
Ahh, cbb, your speculation presumes that Gonzaga's recruiting would stay the same. If GU played big east/acc/big 12 it would definitely recruit differently and easily be able to match up with these other conferences.

sonuvazag
03-09-2010, 05:55 PM
I think you guys are missing what I was getting at --- if gu played big east/acc/big12 level competition throughout conference play, how often would their record have been good enough to get an invite?

I know its extremely speculative, but look at gtown and nd last year, and uconn this year - very talented teams that got kicked around in conference play. Throw gu's roster in a big conference, and about half the years it looks nit-ish --- and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that
My speculation is based in something known... how the seeding committee actually rated GU over the past decade. In not one year did the committee seed GU 13-16.... usually the lowest at-large is a 12 seed.

Are you saying its harder for power conference teams to earn at-large bids? I doubt that. Possibly, GU would have been smothered in a power conference, but then again, as Kitz says, wouldn't GU be able to recruit Big East players if it were in the Big East?

But to answer your question I would say 8 or greater out of 10.

MickMick
03-09-2010, 06:11 PM
The knock on the Zag's schedule is a bad one. You cannot look at the scheduling in hindsight.

Next year they get Marquette, Duke, and Kansas State in the CBE. Looks good now, but who knows how they will be measured at the end of next season. They all could have a down year.

If the cards in Maui fell differently, the Zags could have played a currently hot Maryland or Vanderbilt team instead of Cincinatti in the final. Oklahoma had the first pick in the draft last year and a hyped Willie Warren coming in. Illinois has tradition. Davidson is the latest of Cinderellas.

Now we are going to criticize Few's scheduling in hindsight? Few was supposed to know that those teams wouldn't live up to expectations?

I call B.S.

Further, I disagree with much of what Jazz has to say. All hindsight. Someone pull out that pre season prediction thread again please. I would say the WCC coach of the year exceeded most expectations.

MDABE80
03-09-2010, 06:23 PM
Lothar I have no beef with you. I just couldn't help reacting to gamagin's comment.

I think winning the regular season championship is commendable, but the WCC championship IMO is detemined by the tournament. I'd say the majority of objective people would say the same thing. That's why the regular season champs don't get the auto-bid. We'll both have banners to hang next year, but I'd rather have ours. Some people here no doubt will disagree, but hey I've read stupid posts by both teams' fans here and on our board.

Your picture shows what we all already know, the Zags have many WCC crowns, but this year its the Gaels who are the champions.

Good luck in the tourney. I'll be pulling for a Zags sweet sixteen or better. Hopefully the Gaels we can get there too.
Sorry bud....GU won the league..SMC won the tournament. One is body of work...the other is just a few games. Not even close..

sonuvazag
03-09-2010, 06:30 PM
I also don't believe the teams that struggle to win half of their conference games in bcs conferences would waltz undefeated through the WCC.

cbbfanatic
03-09-2010, 06:32 PM
Ahh, cbb, your speculation presumes that Gonzaga's recruiting would stay the same. If GU played big east/acc/big 12 it would definitely recruit differently and easily be able to match up with these other conferences.

my hypothetical is only that you subject the rosters over the last 10 years to the night in, night out rigors of one of the conferences mentioned. in that scenario, which i admit is very speculative and obviously impossible, i do not think GU holds up to the point that they are an ncaa tournament team more than 50-60% of the time. either way, not a huge knock that some of you will infer. look at uconn, louisville, gtown... all have had final four AND nit's recently.

obviously if gu actually played in a good conference, they would get better players.

JPtheBeasta
03-09-2010, 07:49 PM
I think this year BCS wise you could say that, but definitely not most years. The reasons teams seem to not be firing going into the tournament is that we play in such a terrible confrence. All your asking for is upset after upset in the WCC. If we played in say the MWC we could not win conference and still be prepared for the tournament by having 4 super quality opponents. You get caught sleepwalking sometimes in the WCC and lose, but rarely does conference play make us any better. Look at teams in the Big East, Big 12, or ACC, there conference play is what makes up the heavy part of their schedules and it comes right before the big dance. If your playing with that competitive edge during teh regular season, it gets you more prepared for the dance, not after playing in the WCC.

It might wear on a team when the only emotional reward of winning a conference game is from avoiding an upset loss. It's the same dynamic that discourages BCS programs from playing mid-majors; if you win you were supposed to and if you lose everyone questions your heart.

bigblahla
03-09-2010, 08:25 PM
Harris's arc of development is the perfect metaphor for this year. Lottery pick early on? Laughable now. Zags, FF material early on, and now? You tell me.

Hmmmmmmm? Just got back form Vegas, I expected to read some interesting posts and this is the one I opened first. I haven't finished reading this thread but I can't get past the above.

Jazz, I have always appreciated your opinion and at times agreed. However, as stated numerous times by many here on this board you suffer from your own expectations.

Break it down for me Jazz in basketball terms, tell me why in basketball terms.

I'm disappointed in you and your opinion of our Zags.

Go!! Zags!!!

deathchina
03-09-2010, 09:02 PM
All this talk about UW's scheduling is pointless.

It doesn't matter WHAT they do with their non conference..they ALWAYS have a tougher SOS than we do. And usually it's not even close.

This past season their SOS was 56 and ours was 111. Last season theirs was 14 and ours 80. I could go on and on. Year in and year out they play a much tougher schedule REGARDLESS of whether their non conference schedule is weaker.

But it's what you do with the teams on your schedule that matters....

ZagAddict
03-09-2010, 09:10 PM
We'll both have banners to hang next year, but I'd rather have ours. .

Oak Gael... we don't hang WCC banners in our arena. We judge our season based on the NCAA tournament. I guess this is just another difference between our two programs... focusing on the NCAA tournament annually versus treating the WCC tournament as a Super Bowl.

Yes, the Gaels beat the Zags in the WCC tournament this year, but let's stop comparing teams here. It won't end very well for Gael fans in terms of the BIG picture. Take the victory and act like you've been there before... even if you haven't.

Nice introduction on the GUboards... maybe you should contribute on this board before throwing around SMC's Super Bowl victory. What did you expect with your posts?

ZagAddict
03-09-2010, 09:12 PM
Both teams are WCC champs.

But one team has beat the other 2 out of 3 times this season... ;)

ZagAddict
03-09-2010, 09:16 PM
Sorry bud....GU won the league..SMC won the tournament. One is body of work...the other is just a few games. Not even close..

:agreed:

TexasZagFan
03-09-2010, 09:47 PM
Sorry bud....GU won the league..SMC won the tournament. One is body of work...the other is just a few games. Not even close..

No doubt about it Abe, this is the most heated 4-19 rivalry in the country.

Quick request to Gaels fans: tell your mods to take down the spammy websites that hit me immediately after checking into your site. Stay classy Moraga.

TexasZagFan
03-09-2010, 09:57 PM
Actually, Lothar is the delusional one. We just like to disguise things a bit.

Good luck. SMC will need a lot of it IMO. But work on that math a bit. The numbers don't lie.

Here are a couple more numbers that don't lie:

10 straight conference championships
19-4 record over SMC during Bennett's tenure

I'm looking forward to seeing how SMC will react next year while wearing the bullseye on their back in WCC play. Packed enemy arenas, students wearing "Beat SMC" t-shirts, fans storming the floor after beating SMC.


...not in my lifetime. :lmao:

SMC did well enough this year to raise Bennett's stock with a larger school, which will reap the benefits of the Australian connection.

jazzdelmar
03-10-2010, 04:01 AM
Hmmmmmmm? Just got back form Vegas, I expected to read some interesting posts and this is the one I opened first. I haven't finished reading this thread but I can't get past the above.

Jazz, I have always appreciated your opinion and at times agreed. However, as stated numerous times by many here on this board you suffer from your own expectations.

Break it down for me Jazz in basketball terms, tell me why in basketball terms.

I'm disappointed in you and your opinion of our Zags.

Go!! Zags!!!


sorry ur disappointed BB...and sorry u had to sit thru that performance. ok, its simple. in basketball terms. the zags and harris during the first quarter of the season VS the zags and harris the last quarter!!!! blame it on hitting the wall, too many games, ennui, better scouting, bad american cuisine, a slump, but other than his 3 pt shooting and just maybe his foul shooting, harris isnt the player he was 1st quarter. surely u will agree. same with the team. first quarter: cohesive, smart crisp passing, tenacious D; last quarter: do i really have to go on. both harris and the team have vectored down......nothing to do with my expectations, just provable facts.....still disappointed?

bigblahla
03-10-2010, 05:06 AM
sorry ur disappointed BB...and sorry u had to sit thru that performance. ok, its simple. in basketball terms. the zags and harris during the first quarter of the season VS the zags and harris the last quarter!!!! blame it on hitting the wall, too many games, ennui, better scouting, bad american cuisine, a slump, but other than his 3 pt shooting and just maybe his foul shooting, harris isnt the player he was 1st quarter. surely u will agree. same with the team. first quarter: cohesive, smart crisp passing, tenacious D; last quarter: do i really have to go on. both harris and the team have vectored down......nothing to do with my expectations, just provable facts.....still disappointed?

I don't believe in excuses.

The only part of the above post that I agree with is better scouting he's now facing double and triple teams every time he touches the ball and in case you haven't been watching closely it's been open season on Elias in the WCC bang him all you want no blood no foul. The rest is drivel.

A basketball term would be something along the lines of the inability of the point position to consistently feed the post when open. This I would agree with.

For 14 of the last 16 games we have played teams who know us, hate us with a passion and their season is made if they beat us.

I consider the conference the tough part of the schedule. WCC teams know our tendencies, we can't always beat them on just athleticism and our inexperience as a team shows nothing more nothing less, unless you factor in the injuries but most teams have them this time of the year and that's where luck plays a roll.

Should this team be undefeated? At the start of the season is that what you thought? We are 26-6 that's horrible isn't it. ;)

Looking at our entire body of work for the season and considering where we started before Krazy in the Kennel personally I think it's been a great year and now we get our desert a ticket to the The Dance and something tells me there are 275+ teams who would like to trade places with us anytime.

Go!! Zags!!!

jazzdelmar
03-10-2010, 05:28 AM
I don't believe in excuses.

The only part of the above post that I agree with is better scouting he's now facing double and triple teams every time he touches the ball and in case you haven't been watching closely it's been open season on Elias in the WCC bang him all you want no blood no foul. The rest is drivel.

A basketball term would be something along the lines of the inability of the point position to consistently feed the post when open. This I would agree with.

For 14 of the last 16 games we have played teams who know us, hate us with a passion and their season is made if they beat us.

I consider the conference the tough part of the schedule. WCC teams know our tendencies, we can't always beat them on just athleticism and our inexperience as a team shows nothing more nothing less, unless you factor in the injuries but most teams have them this time of the year and that's where luck plays a roll.

Should this team be undefeated? At the start of the season is that what you thought? We are 26-6 that's horrible isn't it. ;)

Looking at our entire body of work for the season and considering where we started before Krazy in the Kennel personally I think it's been a great year and now we get our desert a ticket to the The Dance and something tells me there are 275+ teams who would like to trade places with us anytime.

Go!! Zags!!!


i wasnt offering an excuse....and your characterization of my post as largely "drivel" is self-defining. lets agree to disagree.

montanazag88
03-10-2010, 05:59 AM
Jazz is just pointing out what any honest, basketball experienced mind admits to himself after faithfully following the Zags progress for more than a decade.

If you haven't played the game competitively, you will never understand his comments. Consistently, each year, the Zags have waned late in the season. The loss to SMU could have happened to any team, but the subtle truths beneath Mark's growing legacy of one of college basketball's all-time greatest coaches do not lie. The troubling trends include:

- Late season lack of play execution
- deteriorating offensive rebounding (where Harris used to score)
- deteriorating guard play (Matt may be injured, but he's focused on the refs, not his team, an Adam Morrison syndrome that kept the Reddick/Morrison race close. AND Goodson still driving recklessly to the rim wasting shot clock time and confusing the offense)
- Excessive individual play making - most teams begin to master the pick and roll against switching and double teaming defenses at the end of the season, but the Zags seem to get worse (SMU has it down) and most tend to play as a team more so than early in the season - Zags are one-on-one solution oriented and that's a tourney killer.
- Perimeter defense is not improving (most teams get better at defending the 3, the Zags seem to be oblivious to the idea of guarding the "hot hand.") This is a tourney killer.
- Big men tend to get worse at kicking out for the 3. Zags rarely have that option, yet their opponents clearly exploit the Zags lack of defending the same.

There ARE positives about this version of the Zags compared to years past.
- Early season team play.
- Defensive pressure - Zags used to guard ten feet away.
- Balances scoring
- Success with an extremely young team

Mark is the MAN for GU and he continues to evolve into a better coach each year, but fans are right to point out these weaknesses on this board in support of things getting better, otherwise they would not be fans. Why? Like it or not, this program wants a final four. I can't believe anyone is suggesting otherwise. Nobody would even ask a player that question. In that spirit...Jazz has nailed this one and I suspect wants the final four more than anyone on the board.

Now, let's hope this version of the Zags regroups and addresses the knucklehead play of late, getting back to their early season selfless approach to the game.

bigblahla
03-10-2010, 06:10 AM
[QUOTE=jazzdelmar;548401]i wasnt offering an excuse....and your characterization of my post as largely "drivel" is self-defining. lets agree to disagree.[/QUOT

I agree with you on our point guard situation but you make me feel that this is more about you and your opinion than the Zags.

You ever actually lace them up or are you just another wannabe?

Go!! Zags!!!

jazzdelmar
03-10-2010, 06:12 AM
[QUOTE=jazzdelmar;548401]i wasnt offering an excuse....and your characterization of my post as largely "drivel" is self-defining. lets agree to disagree.[/QUOT

I agree with you on our point guard situation but you make me feel that this is more about you and your opinion than the Zags.

You ever actually lace them up or are you just another wannabe?

Go!! Zags!!!



back off BB.....dont make it about you & me

bigblahla
03-10-2010, 06:20 AM
[QUOTE=bigblahla;548416]



back off BB.....dont make it about you & me

Never been about us Jazz, you think way to much of yourself, I've agreed with you more times than not but if you want to make it about us threaten me again I'm in Spokane, PM me, I'll pick you up at the airport and we can settle this man to man. You are a man right? I'm calling you out you died in the wool band wagon riding ,complaining ,#####ing, ####y.

Are you happy now?

Go!! Zags!!!

Once and Future Zag
03-10-2010, 06:48 AM
For 14 of the last 16 games we have played teams who know us, hate us with a passion and their season is made if they beat us.

Has any team anywhere else ever had the court rushed twice on them in a conference season?

We didn't just make their seasons, those wins were the high points of the decade at War Memorial and Gersten.

LongIslandZagFan
03-10-2010, 06:56 AM
Jazz... your expectations are too high for any team save 1 or 2 each year. Your expectations are that they are going to be like Kansas is this year or UNC was last year. Guess what? It was NEVER going to happen this year. IMHO this team has exceeded my expectations for the most part.

So lets summarize, we need to lose Few since he obviously doesn't know how to coach and we should yank the schollies of many players and go give burger boys money under the table like the top tier schools do just so the Zags can meet your expectations.

I, personally, would want no part of that.

deathchina
03-10-2010, 07:10 AM
"So lets summarize, we need to lose Few since he obviously doesn't know how to coach and we should yank the schollies of many players and go give burger boys money under the table like the top tier schools do just so the Zags can meet your expectations."

I don't think the excuse should be that we aren't winning more games or having more success in the tournament because we aren't willing to go there....Everyone on this board is proud we run a pretty clean program but what makes you think all the elites are dirty?

Just curious.

LongIslandZagFan
03-10-2010, 07:24 AM
"So lets summarize, we need to lose Few since he obviously doesn't know how to coach and we should yank the schollies of many players and go give burger boys money under the table like the top tier schools do just so the Zags can meet your expectations."

I don't think the excuse should be that we aren't winning more games or having more success in the tournament because we aren't willing to go there....Everyone on this board is proud we run a pretty clean program but what makes you think all the elites are dirty?

Just curious.


You are right Coach Cal runs a clean program. I'd love to know how many player family members "work" for KU, Kentucky and etc. That is the new way to pay players, hire a parent. Burger boys typically expect to be "taken care of". If it isn't the school doing it, it is the boosters finding ways. When I worked at St. John's back when they were good, you knew kids like Omar Cook and Eric Barkely were as dirty as they got. Barkely was from the projects, his family barely could put food on the table, yet he was driving a brand new Ford Expedition to school. Geee.... wonder how he got that.

DixieZag
03-10-2010, 07:39 AM
LIZF -- The voice of reason and realistic expectations. Thank you for weighing in on this thread. Jazz has some undeniable points, but those are trees and the program is the forest. We would not be having this discussion if we beat SMC by one point. SMC beat us. Nothing wrong with that, as much as we "hate" them, everyone of us knows we will be cheering for them in the tourney. And it is not like Pepperdine came from nowhere and beat us, a damn good team will be one of two in the tournament and I would like to think it would be that way if we had won also.

But, the very fact that Gonzaga, with the relatively small budget compared to lets say. . . Texas, will get an at large bid with probably about the same seed as Texas says everything about the state of the program. We may never go the FF, ever, but the program has done so much for my alma mater it is ridiculous. A simple comparrison to class size and admission standards to before "the run" says plenty about the basketball program. That is the forest. Tough to see after a draining loss. But also THE time to back our guys.

Its March, our team is in the big one, GO Zags, you have exceeded our expectations this year and we will proudly cheer you on.

speed21
03-10-2010, 07:52 AM
[QUOTE=Oakland Gael;548045]Lothar I have no beef with you. I just couldn't help reacting to gamagin's comment.

I think winning the regular season championship is commendable, but the WCC championship IMO is detemined by the tournament. Quote]

So your saying that the really champion is determined over a 4 day period and not over a 2 and a half month period? When a team has 3 conference wins and is the 8 seed in their conference tournament but gets hot for a fews days and wins their conference tourney they are the real champions?

Andy Katz brought up a good point about a week ago, when he said that in these mid-major conferences, the regular season champion should get the auto-bid. They're truly the best team and have the best chance of upsetting a team in the tournament.

Robzagnut
03-10-2010, 07:54 AM
This year: UW played Texas Tech(road) Texas A&M (home) and Georgetown on a neutral site.


Texas Tech = another cupcake (at home), thanks for the confirmation.

Georgetown = Neutral location, again no home and home.

Texas A&M = required Big 12 match-up game, Romar would have weaseled out if given a choice.

Bottom line.

13 games at home. 2 games on the road, which they lost. Romar is actually smart staying at home, playing cupcakes, so he doesn't lose.

Case closed.

sonuvazag
03-10-2010, 07:55 AM
This particular season has defied my expectations as a whole and, at times, defied my expectations at the end of games where I assumed all was lost.

I don't know how this team will win a bunch of tourney games, but it doesn't mean they won't.

ZagMan in Philly
03-10-2010, 08:01 AM
I don't know how this team will win a bunch of tourney games, but it doesn't mean they won't.[/QUOTE]

It is going to be a wild tournament this year...perhaps we will win a few games.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/09/AR2010030903557.html

kyle dixon
03-10-2010, 08:05 AM
Wow, this thread has encompassed everything. UW scheduling, Few should get fired, St Mary's is the best program ever after winning a two game tourney. Alot of great points being discussed....

FieldHouseFishHouse
03-10-2010, 08:30 AM
I don't think anyone is saying that they are going to stop cheering for the Zags. And I also don't think it is wrong to adjust expectations to match the success of this program.
+1
I'm a fan to the end, and a critic to the end as well.
If you don't want to read about this team's problems, don't log on to this board.

deathchina
03-10-2010, 10:22 AM
"You are right Coach Cal runs a clean program. I'd love to know how many player family members "work" for KU, Kentucky and etc. That is the new way to pay players, hire a parent. Burger boys typically expect to be "taken care of". If it isn't the school doing it, it is the boosters finding ways."

Yeah, but to lump all elites and burger boys together is bit much. And so is the assumption that the only reason Gonzaga doesn't have multiple final fours is because we aren't paying people under the table to come play.

If we start bringing in Mcdonald's AA's I bet we lay off all the "we don't want these one and done kids" and "rankings don't mean anything" talk...

GonzagaSwagga
03-10-2010, 10:27 AM
LIZF -- The voice of reason and realistic expectations. Thank you for weighing in on this thread. Jazz has some undeniable points, but those are trees and the program is the forest. We would not be having this discussion if we beat SMC by one point. SMC beat us. Nothing wrong with that, as much as we "hate" them, everyone of us knows we will be cheering for them in the tourney. And it is not like Pepperdine came from nowhere and beat us, a damn good team will be one of two in the tournament and I would like to think it would be that way if we had won also.

But, the very fact that Gonzaga, with the relatively small budget compared to lets say. . . Texas, will get an at large bid with probably about the same seed as Texas says everything about the state of the program. We may never go the FF, ever, but the program has done so much for my alma mater it is ridiculous. A simple comparrison to class size and admission standards to before "the run" says plenty about the basketball program. That is the forest. Tough to see after a draining loss. But also THE time to back our guys.

Its March, our team is in the big one, GO Zags, you have exceeded our expectations this year and we will proudly cheer you on.
+1
One of the best posts i've seen on this board. Finally got back from Vegas and sobered up enough to really think about this, and you really put it into perspective here.

Be smart, people. Try to remember how you felt before the season, and try to understand that empires aren't built overnight (when you're talking about empires, a 10-year stretch can be considered "overnight").

I'm a lot happier today than I thought I would be back in early November.

LongIslandZagFan
03-10-2010, 10:30 AM
"You are right Coach Cal runs a clean program. I'd love to know how many player family members "work" for KU, Kentucky and etc. That is the new way to pay players, hire a parent. Burger boys typically expect to be "taken care of". If it isn't the school doing it, it is the boosters finding ways."

Yeah, but to lump all elites and burger boys together is bit much. And so is the assumption that the only reason Gonzaga doesn't have multiple final fours is because we aren't paying people under the table to come play.

If we start bringing in Mcdonald's AA's I bet we lay off all the "we don't want these one and done kids" and "rankings don't mean anything" talk...

Has Self employed the parent of a player on his staff while the student was there? Yes. Is that in and of itself a form of payment, without a doubt in my eyes. MANY MANY MANY BCS teams employ this little loophole.

I doubt we ever land a burger boy... ever. I am OK with that.

lothar98zag
03-10-2010, 10:58 AM
Now we are going to criticize Few's scheduling in hindsight?

I'll continue to criticize the # of 300+RPI teams GU schedules until it changes. I'll do it in foresight, in hindsight, & in nowsight. Those teams are easier to predict than figuring out which BCS teams will be top 25 vs top 100 vs 100+.

but that wasn't the main point of your post, so nevermind.


...Andy Katz brought up a good point about a week ago, when he said that in these mid-major conferences, the regular season champion should get the auto-bid. They're truly the best team and have the best chance of upsetting a team in the tournament.
If a conf did that, the tourney wouldn't have as much meaning & ESPN would probably not show it - costing the conf some good exposure. Not to mention they'd bring in less $ at the event if teams weren't playing for something. Even though Katz point is a good one, it's just not going to happen.

overthehill
03-10-2010, 12:38 PM
There have been many comments on the board at various times about how teams in the past have done as well or better with less skilled players. I would not say that they have done better, but they certainly went farther than expected. In my opinion that is because of two things: very good coaching and good athletes.
When I say good athlete I don't mean a great athlete. I mean one who is talented but won't be on the whose-who list. The thing that he does have are a desire to not settle for being as good as he is, but desires to always be better. He is also, most importantly, a player who has a passion for being a smart ball player above all else.
Our decade started with very good coaching and good ballpayers who had these qualities.
Now, I see that we still have very good coaching and we now have great athletes. The challenge is that most great athletes do not put a premium on dedication to getting better or playing smarter.
When I saw players in the past who had very good fundamentals and strong skill sets, they were able to pass,rebound,post and shoot freethrows very well. Now I see a noticeabley lower level of fundamentals and skill sets. A more athletic athlete such as we have now could perform better in terms of end results if he is incresing in his skills. If he does not improve his skill sets, he is only a great athlete who is a good ballplayer, and the coach can only do so much to motivate a player to mature.

gamagin
03-10-2010, 12:56 PM
When I worked at St. John's back when they were good, you knew kids like Omar Cook and Eric Barkely were as dirty as they got. Barkely was from the projects, his family barely could put food on the table, yet he was driving a brand new Ford Expedition to school. Geee.... wonder how he got that.

Thrifty ?

deathchina
03-10-2010, 02:26 PM
Has Self employed the parent of a player on his staff while the student was there? Yes. Is that in and of itself a form of payment, without a doubt in my eyes. MANY MANY MANY BCS teams employ this little loophole.

I doubt we ever land a burger boy... ever. I am OK with that.


Look, I know how shady the whole Mario Chalmers thing was at Kansas with his dad. I recall Chris Duhon's mom getting a job at Duke while he was there. I know many teams stretch the rules in one way or another, some more than others....I'm sure we have bent a rule in the past as well.

I guess my point is that we shouldn't just think "well, if we're ever gonna improve the program we have to cheat". That's a really really defeatist attitude to take, and I refuse to believe that every team that has won a NC or been to a final four is more crooked than ours. Are you saying the program is at it's absolute possible pinnacle without resorting to cheating?

odeasmcgu
03-10-2010, 04:14 PM
Just got done reading the whole thread. Very interesting. Just some comments on each individual subject:

(1) The subject of Gonzaga downturn this season. I think any team would get a tired from the schedule that GU has played this year. I mean look Michigan State, followed by the Maui, then Illinois, Duke, and Oklahoma pretty much in a row is tough. Also fact is GU does get everyone's best shot in conference play and for most of the teams, it is their only shot against a top 25 program on their home court. A couple things I don't understand though is that this should have used their bench better. If you compare SMC to GU, GU is 9 deep. SMC is only seven deep. I don't understand why Few didn't play Kelly and GJ more. Olynck is so much better than Foster. I would have liked to see the depth of your team come out. And its not like Few was trying to redshirt Kelly or GJ. That is one thing I dont get.

(2) Coach Few and Bennett: Those who don't like Few just don't get it. This guy is one of the most sought after coaches on the west coast. You need to have some perspective. This team was supposed to suck, relatively speaking. I remember people were saying they would be happy with a top 50 team. But look what Few has molded. This team has been in the 25 for most of the year. BTW are you going to call Rick Barnes at Texas a bad coach. Didn't his team have a pseudo mid year meltdown. As to the Bennett rumors, its not going to happen. Bennett loves the Bay Area, he is paid well, and has a great team coming back next season. SMC has all of its guards coming back as well as Stephen Holt who is regarded as the top PG on the West Coast by ESPN. We also get 6-10 Kenton Walker coming in (transfer from Creigton) and Rob Jones (all conference in the WCC two years ago) coming to man the front. Also, Oregon wouldn't want another SMC coach (Kent coached us before he went to Oregon).

(3) WCC Championship and rivalries: Gonzaga won the regular season crown, enough said. And banners are not hanged at SMC for this. As to the rivalries issue I keep saying GU IS NOT OUR RIVAL. To some on this board, maybe you think SMC isn't worthy of being your rival but guess what SMC DOESNT CARE. We have no history between each other. GU is a latecomer to the WCC landscape. SMC and SCU have been together been playing for over a century and are original members of the WCC (formally the WCAC). GU doesn't really have rivalries. And no Wazzu and UW aren't your rivals. They are each other's.

(4) Scheduling: GU should be happy with their schedule. GU is the only mid major in America who gets Wake to come onto their homecourt, or get Oklahoma in a pseudo homegame. Also very few teams get a crack at Duke on a neutral court. Dont you want a few patsy games so you don't get tired out. Few deserves credit for the schedule. It is a true feat to get the games you get.

NotoriousZ
03-10-2010, 05:58 PM
Just got done reading the whole thread. Very interesting. Just some comments on each individual subject:
...
(3) WCC Championship and rivalries: Gonzaga won the regular season crown, enough said. And banners are not hanged at SMC for this. As to the rivalries issue I keep saying GU IS NOT OUR RIVAL. To some on this board, maybe you think SMC isn't worthy of being your rival but guess what SMC DOESNT CARE. We have no history between each other. GU is a latecomer to the WCC landscape. SMC and SCU have been together been playing for over a century and are original members of the WCC (formally the WCAC). GU doesn't really have rivalries. And no Wazzu and UW aren't your rivals. They are each other's.
...

I just got done reading through this thread also and since yours is the last one I saw I'll comment on it first.

(1) SCU is your rival, is that what your saying? Have a great time with that one. How long do we have to be in this league before we're not a "latecomer" in your eyes? I'd like to think that we've developed a rivalry with SMC, one that be can be sustained if Bennett doesn't leave and they keep their Austrailian pipeline.

(2) With regards to Harris: it would not surprise me in the least to find out after the season that he's been dealing with an injury of some sort. It seems to me like he hasn't been himself since the game at SMC. I don't want to make excuses for him, but that's what I'd bet is going on.

(4) No comment on the whole UW sceduling thing, my opinions should be obvious to anyone who reads this board.

(3) I'll take the side of "We will win at least two games in the tourney." Matt's been off his game for 3-4 games now and that's not Matt Bouldin. He's going to finish like we know he can. The many days of rest will help this team heal up and Few will get them ready for success.

dpouley
03-10-2010, 08:21 PM
Texas Tech = another cupcake (at home), thanks for the confirmation.

Georgetown = Neutral location, again no home and home.

Texas A&M = required Big 12 match-up game, Romar would have weaseled out if given a choice.

Bottom line.

13 games at home. 2 games on the road, which they lost. Romar is actually smart staying at home, playing cupcakes, so he doesn't lose.

Case closed.

Its a struggle for you isn't it? That's okay, not everyone can read simple facts and then understand what they mean.

bigblahla
03-11-2010, 05:18 AM
[QUOTE=bigblahla;548416]back off BB.....dont make it about you & me

NEG REP: that's really uncalled for Jazz did nothing to "threaten you" Weaksauce.

Woke up to this. Gosh I must have read it wrong and took it wrong.

We all have opinions but I'm a Zag fan and get real tired of the unrealistic expectations and negative Nancys that think they are offering a better way when all they're doing is complaining.

I read jazz and agree as much as disagree but I was in Vegas saw our team and the condition they were in and made up my mind I'm not sitting back and let all you died in the wools rag on them just because you can. So Neg Rep away Nancys because there are more good Zag fans who will give me greenies because they're tired of you too!

This has never been about me and Jazz, I'm just not taking his crap.

Go!! Zags!!!

NYCZAG
03-11-2010, 05:58 AM
It must be the NYC water jazz but I agree with alot of what you say-In saying that it's what it is-Young team with a point guard who isn't a scorer -bouldin is hurt or asleep-Harris hit the freshman wall-Sacre is just developing-SG is sporatic-But they provided so much fun this year already for a team that wasn't suppose to do anything-They are on the board to play Marquette and if they won that Kansas state-Lunardi speaking ofcourse-Cest la vie!-

LongIslandZagFan
03-11-2010, 06:45 AM
Look, I know how shady the whole Mario Chalmers thing was at Kansas with his dad. I recall Chris Duhon's mom getting a job at Duke while he was there. I know many teams stretch the rules in one way or another, some more than others....I'm sure we have bent a rule in the past as well.

I guess my point is that we shouldn't just think "well, if we're ever gonna improve the program we have to cheat". That's a really really defeatist attitude to take, and I refuse to believe that every team that has won a NC or been to a final four is more crooked than ours. Are you saying the program is at it's absolute possible pinnacle without resorting to cheating?

You call it stretching the rules, I call it cheating via a loophole. Whatever. I am saying that the playing field isn't level, had never been level, will never be level and the power conferences will always strive to make it stay that way. Does that mean the Zags can't win a NC or get to the final 4? No, it doesn't mean that at all. Heck GW showed us a legit team can get there. In terms of players, however, the Zags will never get to the next level of talent without bending rules, and IMHO that would be compromising their integrity. But while you like to wear rose colored glasses regarding the shadiness of it all, I prefer to be a realist about it.

Robzagnut
03-11-2010, 08:14 AM
Its a struggle for you isn't it? That's okay, not everyone can read simple facts and then understand what they mean.


You've obviously haven't read the book, 'How to Lie with Statistics'. You can take just about any statistic and make it look anyway you want it to look, which is what you have done with the UW schedule. The facts don't lie, Romar is a chicken and refuses to play on the road until forced, and loves to play cupcakes. Which is why his teams suck on the road, because there's a trickle down affect and they're unprepared.

LongIslandZagFan
03-11-2010, 08:40 AM
You've obviously haven't read the book, 'How to Lie with Statistics'. You can take just about any statistic and make it look anyway you want it to look, which is what you have done with the UW schedule. The facts don't lie, Romar is a chicken and refuses to play on the road until forced, and loves to play cupcakes. Which is why his teams suck on the road, because there's a trickle down affect and they're unprepared.

Amen! Trust me, my job requires me to extract statistical information for reports. Trust me, you can make any stat look any way you want.

Robzagnut
03-11-2010, 09:02 AM
Its a struggle for you isn't it? That's okay, not everyone can read simple facts and then understand what they mean.


The only simple fact...

The facts don't lie, Romar is a chicken and refuses to play on the road until forced, and loves to play cupcakes at home. Which is why his teams suck on the road, because there's a trickle down affect to his players and they're unprepared for tough road games.

Nobody watches UW games and they're a NW program, because they don't play anyone until they get to Pac 10 games and those are only on Fox. Case in point:

My niece is a UW grad and she told me a story about when she was in Florida earlier this year. Two people saw her with a purple Washington t-shirt and started talking to her.

Them, "Hey, Washington. That's where Gonzaga is at."

Her, "Yes, and UW is in Seattle.

Them, "Gonzaga sure has a good basketball team."

Her, "UW has a good team too."

Them, "We sure like watching Gonzaga play. They are a scrappy bunch."

Her, "But UW..."

She said she was getting frustrated, because all they wanted to talk about was Gonzaga and didn't realize that UW was good in basketball too (but nobody knows it).

I thought it was cool that when people see a purple Washington shirt, they think Gonzaga. UW needs to hit the road, play some tough schools at their place and people might eventually notice them.

1973Zag
03-11-2010, 09:30 AM
My personal humble explanation(at least partial) for many of the discussed problems with our players,fans,coaches,strategies,mojo, etc.,etc.---We mastered the role of being the unknown hunter, and haven't adapted to being the big time team being hunted. It's a different role, with much more pressure-higher expectations-scrutiny-national press and fan base watching every move (look at the change in our board)-and mind frame. Now we can't 'sneak up on the big guy', we must crush the inferior. Not 'make' the tournament, but 'start' with the tournament. Not brag about OOC wins, expect them, on and on. It is fantastic to make the big time, didn't think it was even possible with our small school(that now includes our Women's team!) but now we must take the next step mentally-coaches,players and fans included.

dpouley
03-11-2010, 10:48 AM
The only simple fact...

The facts don't lie, Romar is a chicken and refuses to play on the road until forced, and loves to play cupcakes at home. Which is why his teams suck on the road, because there's a trickle down affect to his players and they're unprepared for tough road games.

Nobody watches UW games and they're a NW program, because they don't play anyone until they get to Pac 10 games and those are only on Fox. Case in point:

My niece is a UW grad and she told me a story about when she was in Florida earlier this year. Two people saw her with a purple Washington t-shirt and started talking to her.

Them, "Hey, Washington. That's where Gonzaga is at."

Her, "Yes, and UW is in Seattle.

Them, "Gonzaga sure has a good basketball team."

Her, "UW has a good team too."

Them, "We sure like watching Gonzaga play. They are a scrappy bunch."

Her, "But UW..."

She said she was getting frustrated, because all they wanted to talk about was Gonzaga and didn't realize that UW was good in basketball too (but nobody knows it).

I thought it was cool that when people see a purple Washington shirt, they think Gonzaga. UW needs to hit the road, play some tough schools at their place and people might eventually notice them.

Nice to see that your niece has the opportunity to travel, Florida is a nice state. And I am pretty sure that I do not care in the slightest about some third hand, word of mouth story that your niece told you.

As far as the original subject of scheduling, you have yet to prove that the majority of major conference schools choose to schedule any differently than the University of Washington does.

webspinnre
03-11-2010, 11:44 AM
Clearly people didn't read earlier in this post where I nonconference RPI and UW is middle of the pack (140 or so), ahead of a number of BCS schools, behind some others.

dpouley
03-11-2010, 03:14 PM
Clearly people didn't read earlier in this post where I nonconference RPI and UW is middle of the pack (140 or so), ahead of a number of BCS schools, behind some others.

EXACTLY.

Rob?

odeasmcgu
03-11-2010, 03:41 PM
Im not saying anything bad about GU in my last post. All I'm saying is SCU and Saint Mary's have been playing each other for almost a century. When the two teams had football they played for the Little Big Game trophy and have been rivals since the early 1900s.

Robzagnut
03-12-2010, 07:36 AM
EXACTLY.

Rob?


All at home?