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ronh_pm
02-27-2010, 07:12 PM
To me it comes downs to this. If Portland wins and takes a piece of 2nd, Omar is out.

I'm sorry, but leading your team to a conference title is more of an accomplishment than leading your team to a tie for third.

CB4
02-27-2010, 07:22 PM
SMC Conference losses - Samhan's stats

vs. GU - 31 Pts, 12 Reb, 1 Stl, 2 Blk

@ GU - 21 Pts, 11 Reb, 1 Ast, 1 Stl, 1 Blk

@UP - 18 Pts, 14 Reb, 1 Stl, 4 Blk

Season averages - 21.1 Pts, 11.2 Reb, 1.1 Ast, .4 Stl, 2.9 Blk

Numbers talk.

TM27
02-27-2010, 07:32 PM
I agree....john Bryant, and envious Keating like coaches disagree. Remember when Few lead the team to an undefeated WCC season...and was rewarded with Coach of the Year honors last year? Curious if a WCC coach has ever done that and not gotten the award?

I hope they share the award; however, I am worried Samhan will win it outright.

heavyzag
02-27-2010, 07:32 PM
Omar wins WCC honors hands down. I love Matty he is my favorite Zag of all time. Omar has brought it every game this year

SunDevilGolfZag
02-27-2010, 07:38 PM
maybe not in Spokane where big Will made him look like a fool and his team lost :p

ronh_pm
02-27-2010, 07:53 PM
SMC Conference losses - Samhan's stats

vs. GU - 31 Pts, 12 Reb, 1 Stl, 2 Blk

@ GU - 21 Pts, 11 Reb, 1 Ast, 1 Stl, 1 Blk

@UP - 18 Pts, 14 Reb, 1 Stl, 4 Blk

Season averages - 21.1 Pts, 11.2 Reb, 1.1 Ast, .4 Stl, 2.9 Blk

Numbers talk.

I'm not too sure Bouldin could not have put up those numbers if he was asked to; He takes 5-6 more shots a game and he is scoring 19-20 instead of 16.

The award is presented to the most outstanding basketball player, not the highest scorer and though of course I have seen a lot more of Bouldin than I have Samham, outstanding to me is carrying a team of freshman to the conference title.

Of course they probably will forget to send me a ballot ;)

sircreate
02-27-2010, 08:37 PM
oh? like carrying a team of 7 with 3 true freshman? well too second place anyway.

mgadfly
02-27-2010, 09:06 PM
I think Gonzaga has a lot more talent than Saint Mary's. I also think that, although winning should count for something in individual awards, I don't think that there should be that much difference between 1st and 2nd place, with both teams NCAA Tourney bound, winning 20+ games, etc...

Thus, when I look at the stats I have to say that Big Stupid should get the award (which saddens me to no end since MB is one of my top 5 favorite Zags of all-time).



Who should win the National Player of the Year Award? I don't think it should go to the best player on the team that wins the national championship unless that player happens to have the stats to back it up. I also don't think the Award should go to Sherron Collins or Cole Aldrich just because they have their team in the #1 spot right now.

FieldHouseFishHouse
02-27-2010, 09:23 PM
Is GU the best team in the conference? Yes. Is MB the best player on the best team in the conference? Yes.
But POY is not a team award. The best team is awarded the conference title, which is the biggest trophy out there.
The biggest player with the fattest stats gets POY, and this year that is Samhan.
I'm not saying that I really agree with this philosophy, but that is the way it has been in the WCC recently, and I think that's the consensus among the coaches.

PS. Players also get bonus points from some coaches for NOT being from Gonzaga.

FieldHouseFishHouse
02-27-2010, 09:25 PM
maybe not in Spokane where big Will made him look like a fool and his team lost :p

Seriously? 21 and 11 looks like a fool?
Let me be a fool at the pickup game this weekend.

ronh_pm
02-27-2010, 09:47 PM
The biggest player with the fattest stats gets POY, and this year that is Samhan.
I'm not saying that I really agree with this philosophy, but that is the way it has been in the WCC recently, and I think that's the consensus among the coaches.

PS. Players also get bonus points from some coaches for NOT being from Gonzaga.

Ok I'll live with it. But for the record then, Bouldins name should not even come into the discussion as his stats are a woeful #5.

1. SAMHAN, Omar-SMC SR 28 227 0 136 590 21.1
2. BELL, Keion-PEP SO 29 188 38 135 549 18.9
3. LOWHORN, Dior-USF SR 27 175 21 127 498 18.4
4. VINEY, Drew-LMU SO 27 156 56 94 462 17.1
5. BOULDIN, Matt-GON SR 27 142 52 101 437 16.2
6. HARRIS, Elias-GON FR 28 152 18 99 421 15.0

edit: I guess it comes down to just not liking a guy. He put up 33 tonight...grrr..Gotta live with it I guess.

sittingon50
02-27-2010, 11:01 PM
Omar will win it.

FieldHouseFishHouse
02-27-2010, 11:08 PM
Ok I'll live with it. But for the record then, Bouldins name should not even come into the discussion as his stats are a woeful #5.

1. SAMHAN, Omar-SMC SR 28 227 0 136 590 21.1
2. BELL, Keion-PEP SO 29 188 38 135 549 18.9
3. LOWHORN, Dior-USF SR 27 175 21 127 498 18.4
4. VINEY, Drew-LMU SO 27 156 56 94 462 17.1
5. BOULDIN, Matt-GON SR 27 142 52 101 437 16.2
6. HARRIS, Elias-GON FR 28 152 18 99 421 15.0

edit: I guess it comes down to just not liking a guy. He put up 33 tonight...grrr..Gotta live with it I guess.


If you are looking at "conference only" stats, Bouldin is actually tied for 5th with Bell, with Harris ahead of him by a 0.4 ppg. But this is a pretty narrow view of statistics.
Bouldin has pretty good all around numbers that put him higher than 5th when considering the best players int the leauge. Other than scoring, he is
20th in rebounding (top 5 among guards),
13th in fg% (3rd among guards),
4th in assists,
2nd in ft%,
15th in steals,
2nd in assist/turnover ratio,
and 3rd in minutes played.
He brings a lot to the table other than scoring the basketball. The fact that he produces those numbers alongside Harris and Gray does mean something, and the "best player on the best team" factor should be used as a tiebreaker when awarding individual honors.
BUT, Samhan is just raking in the stats, there is no way around it. Not just leading in major catagories, but dominating.
1st in points (4.3 ppg ahead of Lowhorn)
1st in rebounds (2.6 rpg ahead of Sikma)
1st in blocks (0.9 bpg ahead of Sacre)
add to that 5th in fg%, 14th in ft%, 7th in minutes played. Plus he is arguably a bigger defensive presence that Bouldin, and a strong team leader as well. Not to mention (ok I will mention) SMC is not exactly a bottom feeder in the WCC, they are sniffing an at-large this year.

I hate the guy too, but the numbers are what they are. Samhan #1 (no doubt), Bouldin a solid # 2, Harris arguably #3.

sittingon50
02-27-2010, 11:27 PM
The WCC POY is for league games only.

Each Coach nominates one player ONLY from their team for each award.

Pretty sure Matt will be nominated by Mark as Gonzaga's POY candidate.

Elias will be nominated (& win) Newcomer of the Year & will also make all Frosh team.

Few should win COY. Can't imagine who else it would be.

mgadfly
02-28-2010, 12:29 AM
The Contenders for WCC Player of the Year

Heister and Ehlo, apparently bored with a game that hovered in the 5 to 10 point range, prattled on about the all important topic of who will win the West Coast Conference Player of the Year Award. It was no surprise to come to the Gonzaga Message Board and discover not one, but at least two topics discussing who would win the WCC POY and why Matt Bouldin deserves it. That’s to be expected on a GU Board, but who should win the award?

The favorites:

Omar Samhan 6’11” 265 lbs Sr., Saint Mary’s
He leads the Conference in points (21.2), rebounds (11.0), and blocks (2.9) per game. Coming into tonight’s game against LMU he had 8 straight double-double games. He has flirted with triple-doubles several times this season, first on December 30th when he went for 23 points, 11 rebounds, and 9 blocks in only 20 minutes of play against Howard University. On February 4th he posted 22 points, 12 rebonds and 8 blocks against Santa Clara and was close again the following game finishing with 24 points, 10 rebounds, and 7 blocks against San Francisco. Against Saint Mary’s toughest competition he has really shined, contributing 25 points and 19 rebounds against Vanderbilt, 22 points and 17 rebounds against Utah State, 31 points and 12 rebounds against Gonzaga (Jan. 14th) and 21 points and 11 rebounds against GU on February 11th.

He is one of the best rebounders in the country pulling in 13.8% of his offensive rebounding opportunities and 25.7% of his defensive opportunities. He rarely turns the ball over (12.6 TORate), blocks shots at an extremely high rate (7.8 %), and gets to the free throw line where he converts at a healthy 74% clip. On the all-important efficiency rating (ORTG) he has a very high 115.6 score.

Other than his loud mouth and irritating ability to get under opposing fans skin, he is a complete post player with little to no weakness.


Matt Bouldin 6’5” 224 lbs Sr., Gonzaga
Matt Bouldin isn’t a double-double machine like Omar Samhan; in fact, MB only has one this entire season (15 points, 12 rebounds in a loss at USF). But they do have something in common. While Samhan lost two rare talents (Simpson and Mills) along with a host of other supporting players (Hughes, O’Leary, Smith and Walker), Bouldin lost Daye, Pargo, Heytvelt, Downs, and Ira Brown to graduation or the NBA. It is debatable who had more of a known quantity to work with coming into the season. Bouldin had Gray and seldom used reserves Demetri Goodson and Will Foster. Samhan returned with Wayne Hunter, Mickey McConnell and seldom used reserves Clint Steindl and Ben Allen. It was Bouldin, behind his 16.2 points, 6.0 rebounds, 4.0 assists, and 1.6 steals that led his team to a Conference Championship while defeating Saint Mary’s head to head twice.

The always-in-control Bouldin has a high assist rate (21.9) and low turnover rate (16.5). He is one of the better defenders in the league with the strength to d-up bigger players and the knack for getting in the passing lanes or stripping opponents for steals. Most importantly, he is the most efficient contender for POY with an ORtg of 119.9 (87th ranked nationally) fueled by his ability to convert from the charity stripe (86.7%), from three point range (39.4%), or when working inside by posting up or driving to the rim (55% 2FG shooter). He may not take the same volume of shots as other players, but he makes up for it by being efficient.

The case for Bouldin is made by pointing out that his team won the conference, he is incredibly efficient as a scorer and passer, he has the versatility to play point guard, and the strength to defend Dior Lowhorn man to man (as he did tonight). If he has a weakness, it is that he doesn’t have unbelievable defensive stats, and doesn’t rebound like a post or get the minutes at point to really rack up the assists numbers (though he ranks highly both in conference and nationally). Put him on a lesser team and give him the green light and he might earn POY honors. But I’m pretty confident he’d trade that for yet another trip to the dance.


The Pretenders:
Keion Bell, Pepperdine, 6’3” 200 lbs So.
18.9 points, 5.3 rebounds, 3.3 assists. What’s not to like? Well, he takes an incredible 33.8% of the shots while he is on the floor (15th ranked nationally) and he is not efficient at all: 99.2 ORtg. To give some comparisons for a GU fan, Will Foster is quite a bit more efficient and Demetri Goodson is nearly as good as Bell. Imagine Goodson taking all of our shots. That’s why Pepperdine is 7-22. He is a 75% FT shooter (not bad, not good), 35.5% 3FG shooter (not bad, not good), and inside the arc he is 45.8% (not bad, but not very good at all). Nice looking stats at first glance, but outside of a couple games he shoots way too much and doesn’t make his teammates better.

Vernon Teel, LMU, 6’4” 190 lbs Jr.
14.7 points, 5.5 rebounds, 5.9 assists, and 1.9 steals. I like Teel a lot. I think he is unselfish (20.3% of his team’s shots, cf. to Bell and Lowhorn), gritty player that gets it done on both ends of the court. He isn’t incredibly efficient (105.1 ORtg), turns the ball over a little too much (22.9% even more than the out of control Bell), and isn’t a good enough shooter to really merit strong consideration (66.3% FT, 37.9% 3FG). There really is no reason to exclude him, but there isn’t quite enough reasons to hand him the award either.

Drew Viney, LMU, 6’7” 210 lbs So.
17.1 points, 7.1 rebounds, 2.1 assists, 1.1 blocks. Viney is another player that has a lot going for him but not enough to compete with Bouldin or Samhan. He can score, and relatively efficiently (110 ORtg, 83.2% FT, 41.6% 3FG). He plays good defense blocking shots (3.3%) and getting steals (1.9%). He takes care of the ball and dishes out assists nearly twice as often as Samhan or Lowhorn. He is also ONLY a sophomore, which has me worried for the next two seasons. In the end, he probably isn’t the best candidate on his team, and he doesn’t have the overall numbers to match Samhan or the efficiency numbers to match Bouldin. Plus, although his team has surprised everyone, he doesn’t win as often.

Dior Lowhorn, USF, 6’7” 230 lbs Sr.
Statistically speaking he is a slightly less efficient version of Elias Harris. However, Lowhorn takes 36.9% of the shots when he is on the floor, which is good enough for a #1 ranking nationally. Predictably, he has an extremely low assist rate (remember Austin Daye and how whenever he touched the ball you knew he was going to take the shot? Or Adam Morrison? Well, those two look like John Stockton in comparison—okay, not really, but both of them had higher assist rates, and Morrison’s was almost double Lowhorn’s). Lowhorn does play defense by blocking shots and getting a fair number of steals. 18.4 points and 6.6 rebounds looks pretty good, and the 110.6 ORtg is even a little better than Drew Viney’s, Lowhorn doesn’t quite have the statistics to take home the POY trophy. If only he had hit 35% of his threes.

Elias Harris, 6’7” 215 lbs Fr.
Last but not least is a German import that I am happy about (unlike Sauerkraut). 15 points, 7.7 rebounds, 1.2 assists. Harris is the second best rebounder (but a distant second) on the list, and he blocks enough shots while coming up with more than his share of steals. He shoots for a good percentage inside (who wouldn’t when if they tried to dunk every time they touched the ball), and is the best three point shooter by percentage on all the players listed. He has a good ORtg of 114.7 (just a tad behind Samhan) that would have been better if he shot better from the charity stripe. Overall, an impressive freshman campaign that makes him a lock for newcomer of the year. However, Samhan was just as efficient on offense but much better on the glass and blocking shots. Harris is a distant second among big men.

So that leaves us where we started. The super efficient floor-leader that turned a group of complete strangers into a Top-10 team that won the conference title and is poised to make a run in the NCAA Tourney. Or the big-mouthed big man that was efficient enough on offense to carry the load for a team on the right side of the bubble while pulling in rebounds and blocking shots at an unequalled rate. If this were a career award I’d give it to Bouldin. If the award was also based on the type of person they were, I’d give it to Bouldin. But if the award is based on what they did on the court this season, I can’t find any way to take it away from Samhan.

Ekrub
02-28-2010, 02:17 AM
What he said ^^^^^^^

seasontixholder
02-28-2010, 02:55 AM
Samhan's numbers are inflated because of the team he plays for. If he were on GU, he would have less compelling numbers. Harris would be taking away some of his touches and rebounds. Samhan is a poor man's Harangody on even a lamer team.

The idea is to reward the player with the most positive impact, and see through the statistical noise. Winning should be the biggest consideration, and the award should be given to the best player on the league's best team, unless - and only unless - the statistics are so balanced that blandness gives it away by default. That is not the case here. If Matt doesn't get rewarded for the last two years, it shows that the league itself not only rewards but enjoys mediocrity.

Crazy
02-28-2010, 03:10 AM
Samhan's numbers are inflated because of the team he plays for. If he were on GU, he would have less compelling numbers. Harris would be taking away some of his touches and rebounds. Samhan is a poor man's Harangody on even a lamer team.

The idea is to reward the player with the most positive impact, and see through the statistical noise. Winning should be the biggest consideration, and the award should be given to the best player on the league's best team, unless - and only unless - the statistics are so balanced that blandness gives it away by default. That is not the case here. If Matt doesn't get rewarded for the last two years, it shows that the league itself not only rewards but enjoys mediocrity.

dumb question isn't it a one year award? And hasn't St. Marys just loss one more conference game?

seasontixholder
02-28-2010, 03:20 AM
That one, seemingly measily loss might keep the Gaels out of the Dance if they don't get an automatic. If the Gaels could have managed a split against the Zags, then Samhan could have made a case for league award. But it takes lack of perspective to give it to a 2-time loser in the biggest games of the year over Matt.

Birddog
02-28-2010, 03:52 AM
My prognostication is that Samhan wins WCC POY, and by a landslide. If GU wins the WCC Tournament, then Bouldin gets MVP of the Tournament.

I think it boils down to all the voting coaches asking themselves who (of the nominees) caused the most damage to their teams when they played each other, and by that standard, Hamsan wins. Few can't vote for Bouldin, so there is one vote for Omar already. I suspect Bennett votes for Bouldin so how do you think Keating et al vote? I don't think Hamsan had a single "off" game in conference, Bouldin had 2 IIRC.

Put another way. If SMC had the equivalent of a GUnit of the game, Samhan would have won every single time. Did Matt?

Crazy
02-28-2010, 04:09 AM
That one, seemingly measily loss might keep the Gaels out of the Dance if they don't get an automatic. If the Gaels could have managed a split against the Zags, then Samhan could have made a case for league award. But it takes lack of perspective to give it to a 2-time loser in the biggest games of the year over Matt.

thats not a one vs one they had played, and to be honest i won't be that sure that bouldin is the best player of the league(definately he is strong but you could say this also about Samham but Matt have it much easier to make it to the dance with his team mates and Co Stars).

And i wouldn't say, that Samham messed it up fpr SMC, i thing he made it that they are close to reach the madness.

seasontixholder
02-28-2010, 04:59 AM
Samhan wasn't even the point of emphasis in either of our games with Saint Mary's. He got his numbers by getting single coverage mostly, something that even our bigs drew. And it's not like he put up Morrison-like numbers and deserved to beat out the best player on the best team because they were so mind-boggling.

People like to jerk off with stats and forget the games themselves. If that's the attitude, let's cancel March Madness and give out the RPI of the Year Award.

75Zag
02-28-2010, 05:15 AM
I've got $50 on HamSan. Hopefully Matt can console himself by taking GU to an Elite 8.

Go Bulldogs! Get Bigger!

mgadfly
02-28-2010, 08:01 AM
Samhan wasn't even the point of emphasis in either of our games with Saint Mary's. He got his numbers by getting single coverage mostly, something that even our bigs drew. And it's not like he put up Morrison-like numbers and deserved to beat out the best player on the best team because they were so mind-boggling.

People like to jerk off with stats and forget the games themselves. If that's the attitude, let's cancel March Madness and give out the RPI of the Year Award.

Oh please. The numbers lie. The games don't matter. He wasn't double-teamed, I say!

So Bouldin's numbers are deflated because of the talent he has surrounding him while Samhan's are inflated because of the lack of talent.

But, Bouldin faced more double teams because apparently teams didn't need to guard the rest of our superior talent, while Samhan wasn't double-teamed and left to rack up points all willy-nilly despite having nobody else good on his team. These WCC coaches must be horrible, you'd think after a guy had ten double-double's, in conference, they'd decide to try to mix it up and guard him a little. Instead, LMU let him go out and score 33 points (Morrison type number there) to go with 8 rebounds and 3 blocks.

WAIT, stats don't matter, scores don't matter, all that matters is the "eye-test" and obviously the most dominant player in the league was Meech (I challenge you to prove me wrong ignoring statistics, scores, wins and losses, and everything else but my own opinion).




Today is a tough day for me though because I root for team Canada in college basketball but now they are playing Team USA for the gold medal in hockey. At least I can be comforted that the USA is the better team since I'm going to ignore any stats like points or goals, wins or losses, etc...

mgadfly
02-28-2010, 08:30 AM
And on the subject of Samhan, from yesterday's SF Chronicle:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/02/26/SPFC1C70N9.DTL


Gonzaga: "Rivalry. They made my college career that much better, just between the wars and battles we've had over the years. They help the conference any way you look at it. ... Both sides have gotten more mature over the years. It started off a little rocky, but I think we both can acknowledge that the other one's pretty good at what they do."

RenoZag
02-28-2010, 08:43 AM
Few ought to be COY but it wouldn't surprise me if Max Good somehow took the honor.

sircreate
02-28-2010, 11:04 AM
Yeah I was thinking the same thing, if Few doesnt get coach of the year the only other possible choice is Max Good.. cause considering what he has accomplished this year even with some injuries is pretty darn good.

My picks:

COY:Few

POY:Samhan

Freshman:Harris

Which actually is a knock to Boudin's chances if you think about it, they arent going to give all 3 to the Zags

Xin Loi 67
02-28-2010, 12:59 PM
Matt made others look good and play better. Others, made Omar look good because of their play. POY or Scorer of the year.

Could Omar hold a spread in any game with 3 scoring starters on the bench? I say no because he feeds off his team. Omar calls for the ball from the play, Matt is directing the play. Sure he is a very strong around the rim in "this conference." He swims in Bouldin's waters he sinks. The depth in comparison as total players is remarkable or do my eyes betray me? As "Court Generals" they have met twice this year. Matt's play and direction were heavily contributable to our winning. When you look back over the past 4 years Matt has always been big against SM and against Omar. Since Bouldin has been at GU, how many times has an Omar led team beaten us? To say Omar did it with less talent is crazy. Play X1: Feed Omar the ball for chip shot. Play X2: ?. Face it folks The WCC is weak at post play and Omar is "Good" (one armed or one eyed man so to speak).

My first questions about anybody include, where has this person been and what has that person overcome to be here. Not the front page but the book. GU with Matt Bouldin as their "Senior Leader" went out and picked fights with the tough guys and our team made up mostly with Rookies took blood in every fight. Where in the hell has SM and Omar Samhan been? When were they brused in battle prior to conference? As I said before they swim in different waters.

That's unfortunate!

MickMick
02-28-2010, 01:21 PM
Strong argument for Samhan. He should probably get the nod.


Coach of the year is a different story. A great coaching job by Few this year. Taking a young team and exceeding everybody's expectations.

In my book, Few is coach of the year. He should have been last year as well.
The argument against him last year was that he had a loaded squad returning.

The Portland coach won it last year and what did he have this season?

A loaded squad returning. What did the reigning "coach of the year" do with his team this season? He certainly didn't dethrone a coach that lost four starters. That is for sure.

Yep....Few should have won it last year and it will be a crime if he doesn't get it this season.

gamagin
02-28-2010, 02:34 PM
I think in the larger view, it was on MB's shoulders that this young, unseasoned Zag team has won the WCC.

Samhan had a fine individual season this year, but so did Matt.

I think the POY goes to MB because he not only had a great year, like Samhan, but led the Zags in shutting out SMC in league & winning the WCC.

But I'm only one vote. And even it doesn't count, so we'll see.

Thomas_Sutpen
02-28-2010, 02:41 PM
Samhan got POY last year. He had a fine individual season again this year, but so did Matt.

Big John Bryant of Santa Clara got WCC POY last year.

While MB arguably means more to his team, the voters will not likely be able to look past Samhan's stats.

I like Few & Harris for coach & newcomer

Argentum
02-28-2010, 03:20 PM
Big John Bryant of Santa Clara got WCC POY last year.


And that's exactly why I think Samhan will win it this year. Top notch stats and a much better finish by his team than Bryant's last year.

gamagin
02-28-2010, 03:33 PM
Big John Bryant of Santa Clara got WCC POY last year.

While MB arguably means more to his team, the voters will not likely be able to look past Samhan's stats.

I like Few & Harris for coach & newcomer

I fixed it. We'll see what happens.

best,

IdahoZagFan
02-28-2010, 05:00 PM
We've said it before and we'll say it again. If this is only about statistics, call it that - best stats - not Player of the Year. POY should be about more than statistics - team leadership and team success included.

Also, we question the idea that the awards have to be spread around just so GU doesn't take more than their share. We would think that most conferences want their very best to represent them - not some spread around award.

Matt deserves to be POY - he is a talented all around player and leader.

Just our opinion - obviously we don't get a vote.

mgadfly
02-28-2010, 06:06 PM
Stats: Samhan
Team Leadership: PG for Conference Champions (Meech)
Best Team Success: Meech & Bouldin


I'm still convinced its Meech after we throw out the stats as useless (something no one here was arguing for when we had Adam Morrison going for player of the year).

JPtheBeasta
02-28-2010, 06:31 PM
Stats: Samhan
Team Leadership: PG for Conference Champions (Meech)
Best Team Success: Meech & Bouldin


I'm still convinced its Meech after we throw out the stats as useless (something no one here was arguing for when we had Adam Morrison going for player of the year).


Didn't Adam share the honor of being the best player in the country? Not sure this is an apples-to-apples comparison here...

seasontixholder
02-28-2010, 07:44 PM
I'm still convinced its Meech after we throw out the stats as useless (something no one here was arguing for when we had Adam Morrison going for player of the year).

Oh, brother. Who said stats are completely "useless"? Wasn't what was said is that there are more primary or additional criteria to be considered, rather than just stats alone? By more than one poster?

It's easy to win an argument when the other people's positions are distorted so blatantly.

Bottom line: Matt had substantial stats, and led his team to the championship and to two wins each over the Gaels and the Pilots. He did it somewhat handicapped, after (and while) facing much stiffer OOC competition that gave little time to rest and recoup.

OTOH, Omar had better stats but lost 3 out of 4 games to his chief in-conference competitors. He failed his team by disappearing in the first half against GU, leading to a deficit which never could quite be overcome while the Zags were in coast mode. In his defense, he didn't fly charter. Ha ha ha ha.

mgadfly
02-28-2010, 08:10 PM
Didn't Adam share the honor of being the best player in the country? Not sure this is an apples-to-apples comparison here...

The argument against Morrison was that he wasn't on as good of team as JJ was. At that time, most of us GU fans loved quoting stats and ignored the argument that the best player on the best team should get the award.

Whether the award is for the country or the conference, I'm not sure what the substantive difference is for purposes of this conversation.

mgadfly
02-28-2010, 08:25 PM
Oh, brother. Who said stats are completely "useless"? Wasn't what was said is that there are more primary or additional criteria to be considered, rather than just stats alone? By more than one poster?

It's easy to win an argument when the other people's positions are distorted so blatantly.

Bottom line: Matt had substantial stats, and led his team to the championship and to two wins each over the Gaels and the Pilots. He did it somewhat handicapped, after (and while) facing much stiffer OOC competition that gave little time to rest and recoup.

OTOH, Omar had better stats but lost 3 out of 4 games to his chief in-conference competitors. He failed his team by disappearing in the first half against GU, leading to a deficit which never could quite be overcome while the Zags were in coast mode. In his defense, he didn't fly charter. Ha ha ha ha.

I don't believe you've quoted a stat anywhere in this entire thread.

You have said:


People like to jerk off with stats and forget the games themselves.

That does seem to me that you are at least implying that we should throw out the stats. Especially when combined with your total lack of statistics to back-up any of your points.


see through the statistical noise. Winning should be the biggest consideration, and the award should be given to the best player on the league's best team

Giving stats fairly short thrift here too.


And dismissing stats one more time:


Samhan's numbers are inflated because of the team he plays for.


Bouldin lost to USF and LMU, teams SMC beat all four times they played.
Bouldin was surrounded by Gonzaga level talent and arguably the third best player in the conference (Harris) and still lost to LMU and USF.
Bouldin's team is one game (not five or six) ahead of SMC.
And contrary to your post, we double-teamed Samhan and so did almost every team in the conference. For one half of one game we tried to play behind Samhan without doubling down to take away their outside shooters.

Bouldin plays for the better team (by one game).
This isn't a Most Valuable Player of a tournament where you try to give it to the best player on the winning team. Winning isn't the most important criteria (or John Bryant wouldn't have won anything and GU would have ten straight POY awards).

This award, Player of the Year, is Samhan's because he is dominant on both ends of the court (on paper AND in the games).

jake
02-28-2010, 08:33 PM
Stats lie somewhat if you're looking at something like the scoring average of Bell of Pepperdine. I'm not so sure they lie with Samhan. I think some want to have their cake and eat it too when you look at Samhan and St. Marys. If his stats are padded because the talent on the team he plays on isn't that great, then to me, that's a nod for Omar because St. Mary's only has one more conference loss than we have. That's why I think he wins it. He has great numbers and he's on a team that's only one game out of first place. I think a great argument can be made for Matt, but in my opinion (and it's only that) some of the arguments against Omar don't really stick. I think both are equally deserving, but I don't buy the argument that Omar doesn't deserve the award.

Frankly, I'm starting to like him more, or at least dislike him less, as time goes on. He's a very good player and in interviews etc. recently he's showing more maturity. He still annoys me at times, but he's not the immature, hot-head he was three years ago.

Therunner
03-01-2010, 04:38 AM
If the POY award is granted to Samhantha, then so be it, the guy deserves it. His stats are terrific, he's a double-double machine, his team's MVP, and has been consistent all year long.

However, if the voters pull the same crap they did last season with the COY award going to a team b/c of a feel good story w/o results, I will officially lose all faith in the system. I still can't believe nor accept how a Coach cab lead his team to an undefeated Conference season and not receive a single award from the voters. Of course, we got the last laugh in the WCC Tourney.

Believe it or not, there are already rumblings the COY award could potentially be awarded to Max Good(LMU) considering his team's turnaround from 8th to 5th place or even Randy Bennett since he was forced to deal with the loss of Patty Mills and Diamon Simpson and still placed 2nd in WCC exceeding most expectations. While they have both done a marvelous Coaching jobs, and deserve recognitions, it should be Coach Few's award this season. The proof is in the pudding--once again.

titopoet
03-01-2010, 05:52 AM
SMC Conference losses - Samhan's stats

vs. GU - 31 Pts, 12 Reb, 1 Stl, 2 Blk

@ GU - 21 Pts, 11 Reb, 1 Ast, 1 Stl, 1 Blk

@UP - 18 Pts, 14 Reb, 1 Stl, 4 Blk

Season averages - 21.1 Pts, 11.2 Reb, 1.1 Ast, .4 Stl, 2.9 Blk

Numbers talk.

True. If it was judge on actual play and results then Matt hands down. Matt could average 25+ points if he did not have better players like Elias, Gray, and Sacre. The fact he does not have to and is more focused on winning (and that number is squarely in Matt's favor, winning bigger games including two against Omar the Ball hog)

Now if you dig into the numbers at bit more then Matt emerges as one of best two players in WCC, (Elias is the other) and Omar emerges as a ball hog, who takes more shot at a less effective rate.
These stats are from the numbers guru Ken Pomeroy www.kenpom.com
Look at Omar's numbers on offensive production:

Offensive Rating
115.6
National Ranking 182

Percentage of Possessions Used
30.9
National ranking 32

Percentage of Shots Taken
32.2
National rank 38

Effective Field Goal Percentage
53.7
National rank 328

True Shooting Percentage
57.9
National rank 278


Now look at Matt's

Offensive Rating
119.9
National rank 87

Percentage of Possessions Used
21.3
Not ranked. (He is not a ball hog)

Percentage of Shots Taken
22.9
Not ranked. (He is not a ball hog)

Effective Field Goal Percentage
56.8
National rank 150

True Shooting Percentage
62.2
National rank 68

What does this mean. Omar takes more shots makes less of them than Matt. Matt is a more efficient and effective scorer, and ranks higher as an offensive player than Omar. Omar is the classic ball hog. The other number working for Matt is 2-0 verse Omar.

Matt involves more of his team, while Omar, the numbers reveal, is a black hole. What emerges looking at these numbers is Matt plays to win, and Omar plays for stats.
The question is should the POY be given to a Ball Hog or winner? If Ball Hog, then Omar. If winner, then Matt.

Matt should be the POY, after all numbers don't lie.

LongIslandZagFan
03-01-2010, 06:07 AM
If I had a vote... it would be for Samhan. Don't like the guy, but he had a very very solid year in and out of conference. You average a double double you deserve to get the POY award. Matt was solid and deserves a serious look... but he had games where it got... well.. ugly. The game in Gersten comes to mind.

I think some need to get past the hatred of Omar and take the Zag colored glasses off every once in awhile. Omar earned it and deserves it.

cjm720
03-01-2010, 06:43 AM
Samham will run away with the award.

Few will be COY.

Harris will be Freshman of the year.

Go Zags...win the WCC Tourney, go deep in the Big Dance!!!!!

tobizag
03-01-2010, 06:55 AM
@titopoet:

i suppose the flipside to those stats would be the following: st mary's recognizes that as omar goes, so their team goes...he's their best player and they are counting on him to carry the team. they give him tons of looks, and he produces.

i still don't think i like seeing guys like this win the award, though. john bryant last year put up similar numbers, and was clearly the only weapon santa clara had. but watching the guy in person, and seeing him travel nearly every possession, i wasn't as impressed with his play as with his numbers. i'm just an idiot fan, i know, but he didn't pass my eye test. matt is the best player in our conference, but omar will win the award for the same reasons john bryant won the award.

ZagLawGrad
03-01-2010, 06:57 AM
MB obviously put his considerable playing time over the past 4 years into a nice package this season. But, it appears at times that some put on blinders to the basketball side of things, and are infuenced way too much by the fact MB is an all-around good and likeable guy (and a Zag). So far as WCC play, Samahan has simply dominated. MB has been good all-around, too, but he has not dominated like Samahan. Samhan is not as likeable as MB, but the basketball side of things is the main topic for POY. Hope for co-POYs.

seasontixholder
03-01-2010, 06:59 AM
What does this mean. Omar takes more shots makes less of them than Matt. Matt is a more efficient and effective scorer, and ranks higher as an offensive player than Omar.

That is why the GU coaching staff made the intentional calculation to guard Samhan one-on-one without stacking our defense against him. Sure, he will get overal gross numbers that might awe/distract the attention of casual fans. But he will do it in a subpar performance rate that heightens GU chances of success. Few and staff considered the Gaels' outside shooters more efficient weapons than Samhan; they were right and GU won twice with that strategy.

Kiddwell
03-01-2010, 07:21 AM
(1) Omar Samhan - POY
(2) Mark Few - COY :)
(3) Elias Harris - Newbie of Year :)

(4) GU - Big Dance :)
(5) Matt Bouldin - NBA Draft, 2nd Round :)


:]

zagirl2k
03-01-2010, 07:35 AM
anyone know when the official announcement is so we can argue the real results instead of just the hypothetical ones? ;)

titopoet
03-01-2010, 07:39 AM
@titopoet:

i suppose the flipside to those stats would be the following: st mary's recognizes that as omar goes, so their team goes...he's their best player and they are counting on him to carry the team. they give him tons of looks, and he produces.


Maybe, but as Notre Dame recently showed, that a ball hog could actually hurt your team. With Luke sidelined, the Irish have put up their most impressive wins and are pushing to make the NCAAs. Something that with Harangody seemed like a remote possibility. It seems there was too much standing around and watching Luke play, rather than playing like a team. Luke goes down and the Irish are better.

Matthew Dellavedova could have been more effective if the offense did not run so much through Omar. Same for the rest of St. Mary's team. We will find out next year, and I would not be surprised if St. Mary is better without Omar.

Robzagnut
03-01-2010, 07:43 AM
HamSand will win and it won't even be close.

I'm also worried that Bouldin has gone very cold from the field lately. GU needs him, but if Grey goes cold too at the wrong time we'll see another Wyoming and out.

bballbeachbum
03-01-2010, 08:25 AM
remember him? an eventual All-American as a senior, the Hoyas were supposed to suck that year, fall back to earth with the departure of so many players. that didn't happen. Coach John Thompson took to calling the Hoyas "Reggie and the Miracles," Reggie's rising tide floating all boats. check his story out below, not identical to Matt and this year's Zags, but plenty of similarities

http://www.hoyabasketball.com/features/top100/r_williams.htm

to wit, a couple of quotes

On almost any other team Williams would have assumed the role of the team's star. The fact that Williams didn't have to be the star of the 1983-84 team helped him grow and mature as a player.

Georgetown returned only two starters and three upperclassmen for the 1986-87 season. For the Hoyas to maintain its standard of excellence, it was not enough for the younger players to grow into their roles. The team needed a leader, and Reggie Williams helped carry this unlikely team into one of its most memorable seasons ever.


Reggie and the Rotations someone also called them :) This Zags team has developed past that kind of total reliance on one player so much (Steven is at least Robin on many nights, sometimes Batman, same could be said for Elias, Robert, Meech and the bench), better than that Hoya team did in comparison imo, but these are both very special kinds of players, special seniors.

Omar may earn POY with his numbers, they are excellent, he's had a great year.

but who would you rather have on your team this year?

marczagfan
03-01-2010, 08:51 AM
With a team filled with seniors last year. Matt was actually our best player in conference play, and I feel, as did a lot of people, that Matt should have won POY last year.

It is hard to dispute Samhan's stats, especially against the Zags. It could go either way and both are deserving, I don't think anyone would argue with Co-Player of the year.

BobZag
03-01-2010, 09:03 AM
COY - Randy Bennett
POY - Omar Samhan
NOY - Matthew Dellavedova or Drew Viney
DPOY- Kwame Vaughn or Dontae Bryant

U Zig, I Zag
03-01-2010, 09:06 AM
COY - Randy Bennett
POY - Omar Samhan
NOY - Matthew Dellavedova or Drew Viney
DPOY- Kwame Vaughn or Dontae Bryant

You are just TRYING to start an internet fight aren't you?
;)

LongIslandZagFan
03-01-2010, 09:09 AM
OK... let me just say I have a strong feeling that the WCC awards will go like this: ;)

Men's side:
COY - Few
POY - Matty B
N(ewcomer)OY - Elias Harris


Women's Side:
COY - Graves
POY - Courtney V
NOY - Katelan Redmon

That would be pretty much a sweep outside Defensive POY.

Kiddwell
03-01-2010, 09:19 AM
COY - Randy Bennett
POY - Omar Samhan
NOY - Matthew Dellavedova or Drew Viney
DPOY- Kwame Vaughn or Dontae Bryant

Quick! Somebody call for an ambulance! :p

:]

Houston Zag
03-01-2010, 09:21 AM
Samham is hands down the best player in the conference this year. POY should be for the conference's best player and not the best player on the best team. Not winning POY doesn't take anything away from Bouldin's or GU's great season either.

LongIslandZagFan
03-01-2010, 10:24 AM
Samham is hands down the best player in the conference this year. POY should be for the conference's best player and not the best player on the best team. Not winning POY doesn't take anything away from Bouldin's or GU's great season either.

I don't think Matt has much to worry about...

Let me reiterate this post:


OK... let me just say I have a strong feeling that the WCC awards will go like this: ;)

Men's side:
COY - Few
POY - Matty B
N(ewcomer)OY - Elias Harris


Women's Side:
COY - Graves
POY - Courtney V
NOY - Katelan Redmon

That would be pretty much a sweep outside Defensive POY.

BobZag
03-01-2010, 10:32 AM
OK... let me just say I have a strong feeling that the WCC awards will go like this: ;)

Men's side:
COY - Few
POY - Matty B
N(ewcomer)OY - Elias Harris


Women's Side:
COY - Graves
POY - Courtney V
NOY - Katelan Redmon

That would be pretty much a sweep outside Defensive POY.

The Defensive POY for the women will be Luella Tomlinson of SMC. She broke records in shot-blocking.

ronh_pm
03-01-2010, 11:26 AM
OK... let me just say I have a strong feeling that the WCC awards will go like this: ;)

Men's side:
COY - Few
POY - Matty B
N(ewcomer)OY - Elias Harris


Women's Side:
COY - Graves
POY - Courtney V
NOY - Katelan Redmon

That would be pretty much a sweep outside Defensive POY.

As it seems to me the POY the year is voted, stats alone will not win it. You have to be a player that a person with a vote, actually wants to vote for.

Was Omar that guy?

lothar98zag
03-01-2010, 11:39 AM
True. If it was judge on actual play and results then Matt hands down. Matt could average 25+ points if he did not have better players like Elias, Gray, and Sacre. The fact he does not have to and is more focused on winning (and that number is squarely in Matt's favor, winning bigger games including two against Omar the Ball hog)

Now if you dig into the numbers at bit more then Matt emerges as one of best two players in WCC, (Elias is the other) and Omar emerges as a ball hog, who takes more shot at a less effective rate.
These stats are from the numbers guru Ken Pomeroy www.kenpom.com
Look at Omar's numbers on offensive production:

Offensive Rating
115.6
National Ranking 182

Percentage of Possessions Used
30.9
National ranking 32

Percentage of Shots Taken
32.2
National rank 38

Effective Field Goal Percentage
53.7
National rank 328

True Shooting Percentage
57.9
National rank 278


Now look at Matt's

Offensive Rating
119.9
National rank 87

Percentage of Possessions Used
21.3
Not ranked. (He is not a ball hog)

Percentage of Shots Taken
22.9
Not ranked. (He is not a ball hog)

Effective Field Goal Percentage
56.8
National rank 150

True Shooting Percentage
62.2
National rank 68

What does this mean. Omar takes more shots makes less of them than Matt. Matt is a more efficient and effective scorer, and ranks higher as an offensive player than Omar. Omar is the classic ball hog. The other number working for Matt is 2-0 verse Omar.

Matt involves more of his team, while Omar, the numbers reveal, is a black hole. What emerges looking at these numbers is Matt plays to win, and Omar plays for stats.
The question is should the POY be given to a Ball Hog or winner? If Ball Hog, then Omar. If winner, then Matt.

Matt should be the POY, after all numbers don't lie.
Glad someone posted these player stats.

Although these haven't been updated to include the past week of games, something to not is -

MB's Off Rating is the best on the team. OS's ORtg is 6th best on his team.

Also, the boards, assists, steals, & blocks are pretty one sided (1 way or the other) on this site & using traditional stats - not sure how that affects the overall voting - i guess it comes down to personal pref, but it is what it is.



And finally if I had a vote, I'd probably split it between the two.