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View Full Version : Top 12 Zags of the last 12 years: #7



VanillaGorilla
02-23-2010, 08:35 PM
This is where we get to the true greats in my opinion. no offense to the first 5 on this list, but the next 7 are a cut above

12. Jeremy Pargo

11. Derek Raivio

10. Cory Violette

9. JP Batista

8. Richie Frahm
http://guboards.spokesmanreview.com/showthread.php?t=27051


7. Matt Bouldin

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0323/ncb_a_bouldin3_200.jpg

Why heís here: I struggled with where to place Matt on this list. I had him higher for a while, but I donít want to give him credit for awards not yet won (i.e. winning 2nd team all-american and taking us to the sweet 16 might move him up a bit but that hasnít happened yet so he stays here for now). He is quite simply one of the best all around players this program has ever seen. He is 1 point away from joining Blake Stepp as the only Zag in history with 1600 points, 500 rebounds, 400 assists, and 150 steals. Of course you can adjust these numbers to say anything you want. Those milestones are arbitrary; I could increase assists to 600 and exclude Bouldin or increase steals to 160 and exclude Stepp, but I just want to illustrate how strong his all around game is compared with the all timers. He has never really been asked to be a traditional PG but he will still finish 5th all time at GU in assists. This is even more impressive when you consider his first 3 seasons he played with Pargo who is third all time at GU and definitely decreased Mattís time in the PG role. He is the best rebounding guard that we have had in recent memory and obviously he can score it as well. Last year on a team that had a top 15 draft pick and 3 senior studs Matt was clearly the best player on the team and in all honesty should have won conference POY. (Jon Bryantís stats were impressive, but to me at least Matt easily better. A similar fate may befall him this year as well with Omar. If Matt leaves GU without a single POY that would be a travesty.) What is impressive about this is Matt can be the best player in that group without being a dominant scorer. He just played the game the right way and effected the game in so many ways. That team has taken some shots on this board and in other places due to having prima donnas or whatever. I donít know if that is fair or not, but no one could ever accuse Matt of that. Iím sure he would be as happy making the game winning assist as the game winning bucket. This year he has taken his game to another level. He is going to finish with his highest totals in every major category except steals. With Pargo gone and Meech struggling he has been asked to play the PG role a lot more often this season and has responded big time. His handle is ridiculous, he controls the ball so well whether it is behind his back, in traffic or whatever. He has made big strides this year in that area. His vision is unbelievable; he sees things that no wing in the country can see. I hesitate to say he has the best vision/passing on this list. I just think that may not be fair to Blake Stepp, but he is definitely in the discussion. His legacy will come down to how far this team goes in March. Coming into the year there were a lot of questions about how this team would possibly extend this run or how they would cope with the player losses, but as we have all seen this team is even better than last year and the reason in Matt. Sure Elias and Rob have been revelations, but it all revolves around Matt and more often than not he responds. (LMU not withstanding)

Currently 9th all time in scoring with 1,599 (should finish 6th ahead of Stepp); 5th all time in assists (this is where he will stay, there were 200 assists between 4th and 5th before Matt passed Raivio); 3rd all time in steals (good shot to finish 2nd. Stockton is untouchable); 7th all time in FG made (could finish 6th); 7th in 3 pt FGs made (should finish 6th); 9th all time in FT made (will finish 7th)

Why heís not higher: Mostly because heís not done yet. He could definitely add a conference POY and 2nd team all-america honors this year. I think if he keeps playing like he is playing, once the conference tournament is over and the awards are given out I would be comfortable moving him up to 5th, but again I donít want to give credit for things not yet earned. I have read a few people on this board say he is the best all round player we have had or have him top 4. I really disagree with that at this point. I think you kind of get a case of shiny new toy syndrome. He is the latest, but not necessarily the greatest. When you compare his stats to other guards higher in this list he is close, but doesnít quite compare to Stepp and Santangelo. His final ranking on this list will be determined in the tourney. A final 4 run and and he could be #2 a sweet 16 and he is probably 5. 1st round exit and he stays here. He has yet to have great tourney success. 2 first round exits before a sweet 16 last year. Has yet to defeat a single digit seed. As we have seen this team can beat almost anyone and also lose to almost anyone. I would be shocked if this team didnít get up for a tournament game, but after the last two losses I donít think you can discount the possibility of a 1 and done from this team. And that would mean Bouldin stays at #7

SEASON TEAM MIN PTS REB AST TO A/T STL BLK PF FG% FT% 3P%
2006-07 GONZ 27.8 8.9 3.6 3.1 2.0 1.51 .8 .1 2.5 .448 .742 .363
2007-08 GONZ 32.0 12.6 3.7 2.9 2.5 1.18 1.4 .1 1.5 .462 .767 .365
2008-09 GONZ 31.7 13.6 4.1 3.4 1.7 1.98 1.5 .1 1.6 .491 .744 .423
2009-10 GONZ 36.0 16.5 4.6 4.1 2.2 1.83 1.5 .2 2.0 .479 .867 .394

23dpg
02-23-2010, 09:29 PM
Really strong work here.
Excellent so far.

UberZagFan
02-23-2010, 10:17 PM
So many things about this post reinforces Uber's belief that Matt should have red-shirted his frosh year. Just give Uber one more year of Matty B with this core group...



p.s. feel free to use the "return" key a bit more often...

Zags_Fan1982
02-23-2010, 11:01 PM
So who are 6-1???

Martin Centre Mad Man
02-24-2010, 05:55 AM
So who are 6-1???

Casey Calvary, Dan Dickau, Adam Morrison, JP Batista, Blake Stepp, and Matt Santangelo in whatever order they are listed.

Martin Centre Mad Man
02-24-2010, 05:57 AM
Casey Calvary, Dan Dickau, Adam Morrison, JP Batista, Blake Stepp, and Matt Santangelo in whatever order they are listed.

Sorry. JP was listed above.

VanillaGorilla
02-24-2010, 05:57 AM
already had batista at #9. sub in turiaf for him and you have the final 6

LongIslandZagFan
02-24-2010, 05:58 AM
Haven't seen Stepp, Dickau, Turiaf, Santangelo, Casey or Morrison yet. I think that is your 6... What order I would put them in... don't know. I suspect that Dan and Ammo are the top 2 and Ronny #3... but could be wrong.

Keep up the good work Vanilla.

malmer7
02-24-2010, 07:49 AM
Haven't seen Stepp, Dickau, Turiaf, Santangelo, Casey or Morrison yet. I think that is your 6... What order I would put them in... don't know. I suspect that Dan and Ammo are the top 2 and Ronny #3... but could be wrong.

Keep up the good work Vanilla.

on the edge of my seat waiting to see how 1 and 2 turn out... ammo or dickau, dan or adam, the hair or the mustache... ahhh the stress!

Pleasant Peninsula
02-24-2010, 08:11 AM
When you compare his stats to other guards higher in this list he is close, but doesnít quite compare to Stepp and Santangelo.

These are marvelous posts, Vanilla, and I agree with most of what you say.

I do want to point out, though, that raw stat totals can be a little deceiving. The Gonzaga that Matt Santangelo, and even Blake Stepp played at, isn't the same Gonzaga that Matt Bouldin is playing at now, in terms of overall strength of schedule. Gonzaga has stepped up the scheduling big time in the last five or six years, so it is worth considering that while Matt's overall numbers may not be as high as MS or BS, he put those numbers up against somewhat stiffer competition overall.

Pleasant Peninsula
02-24-2010, 08:12 AM
on the edge of my seat waiting to see how 1 and 2 turn out... ammo or dickau, dan or adam, the hair or the mustache... ahhh the stress!

I think Stepp needs to be in that conversation as well, if only because he gave us four years, whereas Ammo, only three and Dickau, a pair.

malmer7
02-24-2010, 09:13 AM
I think Stepp needs to be in that conversation as well, if only because he gave us four years, whereas Ammo, only three and Dickau, a pair.

true, true

Once and Future Zag
02-24-2010, 09:40 AM
Gonzaga has stepped up the scheduling big time in the last five or six years, so it is worth considering that while Matt's overall numbers may not be as high as MS or BS, he put those numbers up against somewhat stiffer competition overall.

Not only scheduling, but also in a more spread out scoring offense - think of all the firepower we had surrounding him from '07 to '09.

That being said, I can't disagree much with the ranking at this time

jazzdelmar
02-24-2010, 09:48 AM
big surprise: for me, 1-3 wd hafta be DD, Ammo and Blake.....with Matt S/CC 4th.....oddly, Ronny has had by far the best post Zag career.....maybe kyle sneaks into the convo :)

lothar98zag
02-24-2010, 10:49 AM
big surprise: for me, 1-3 wd hafta be DD, Ammo and Blake.....with Matt S/CC 4th.....oddly, Ronny has had by far the best post Zag career.....maybe kyle sneaks into the convo :)
Kyle? :)

Since it's a special day for you, I guess I'll let that one go...

lothar98zag
02-24-2010, 10:51 AM
Also, could someone who has the info memorized please list the Zags from the past 12 years that won the WCC POY award (including the year(s) for each Zag is optional). Thanks!




edit: also list the Zags that received All-American honors (excluding Hon Mention, since I believe all conference POY winners are automatically included in the HM list)

bigblahla
02-24-2010, 11:09 AM
How you place the most complete player to come through GU since Stockton at #7 would be questionable to me but this is your list not mine so have at it.

Go!! Zags!!!

lothar98zag
02-24-2010, 03:05 PM
Also, could someone who has the info memorized please list the Zags from the past 12 years that won the WCC POY award (including the year(s) for each Zag is optional). Thanks!




edit: also list the Zags that received All-American honors (excluding Hon Mention, since I believe all conference POY winners are automatically included in the HM list)

found the wcc stuff myself -

PLAYER OF THE YEAR
2009-2010 ????
2008-09 not GU
2007-08 Jeremy Pargo
2006-07 Derek Raivio (co-POY)
2005-06 Adam Morrison
2004-05 Ronny Turiaf
2003-04 Blake Stepp
2002-03 Blake Stepp
2001-02 Dan Dickau
2000-01 Casey Calvary
1999-00 not GU
1998-99 not GU



so fwiw, during the past 11 years (this yr is TBD), 7 Zags have won POY or co-POY during 8 different years. And it looks like all 7 of them will be on this top 12 list.


source: http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/west/sports/m-baskbl/auto_pdf/09-10mbbrecordbook.pdf

(If you ever wanted to know who won the POWeek awards in 1991 or was on the all-conf team in 1974, this is the place to go)

VanillaGorilla
02-24-2010, 05:35 PM
with regards to Bouldin not being higher. If you break down those ahead of him; really who do you put him ahead of? I can see a couple cases (dont want to give away my list ;) ) where it is arguable, but there have been some amazing careers over the last 12 years. I dont think it is a given that he would move up at all, though I think he has a ceiling of #4 on this list

Pleasant Peninsula
02-24-2010, 10:24 PM
I dont think it is a given that he would move up at all, though I think he has a ceiling of #4 on this list

I agree with your premise that you should rate him as low as possible while he is still active, because you don't know how he finishes, and you don't want current events to cloud overall judgments, but I submit that #6 is his basement (I already rank him ahead of Turiaf, no matter what) and his ceiling is pretty damn close to #1.*

*I don't know how much or how little (other than in your JP Batista ranking) you decrease value when someone doesn't play all four years...which is a classic baseball sabermetric peak/career argument....

maynard g krebs
02-24-2010, 10:47 PM
I'm wondering if the screen name of the list's author gives a clue as to who his #1 is. If so, I'd agree.

Pleasant Peninsula
02-25-2010, 08:24 AM
His legacy would be remembered much differently if that historically epic game against Arizona had gone the other way.

Why? He fouled out midway through the second half.

lothar98zag
02-26-2010, 04:40 PM
bump

#6?

gum797
02-27-2010, 08:32 AM
Enjoy the list vanilla, its a classic bar conversation amoung friends. I feel Adam has to be the number one overall, not just for being player of the year, but also because of the pub he gave the program. I love Dickau and Stepp but I think Morrison has to get it. I would be interested in a top 10 all-time zags list from someone who knows a lot of zag history (ie get Burgess, Brown and Stockton in list)

Xin Loi 67
02-27-2010, 01:36 PM
I go along with you on Matt's story isn't over yet. It would have been great if he could have been a wild card on placement until he finished the most important part of his senior year. The frosting isn't on the cake yet.