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CDC84
02-19-2010, 08:52 AM
I hate to pick on any one player, because I feel it takes more than one player to lose a game, but the facts are just the facts:

MSU = 3/14 FG, 1/8 3PT
Wake = 2/6 FG, 0/3 3PT
Duke = 3/8 FG, 0/4 3PT
USF = 2/13 FG, 0/5 3PT
LMU = 4/14 FG, 2/5 3PT

That comes out to 25% FG, and 12% 3PT.

The bottom line is if Steven is not hitting shots, the Zags lose or really struggle.

Not only do they miss his offense, but it puts more pressure on Bouldin and it gives more freedom for opponents to clog the paint, force double teams, etc.

cjm720
02-19-2010, 08:56 AM
OMG.

Next year could be quite intersting.

GonzagaSwagga
02-19-2010, 08:58 AM
I won't speak for the previous losses, but last night Gray hit his first two 3s and was benched IMMEDIATELY after (he also had 2 assists, 2 steals, and a block at that point). It's hard to stay/get hot when you're sitting down.

gamagin
02-19-2010, 08:58 AM
I hate to pick on any one player, because I feel it takes more than one player to lose a game, but the facts are just the facts:

MSU = 3/14 FG, 1/8 3PT
Wake = 2/6 FG, 0/3 3PT
Duke = 3/8 FG, 0/4 3PT
USF = 2/13 FG, 0/5 3PT
LMU = 4/14 FG, 2/5 3PT

That comes out to 25% FG, and 12% 3PT.

The bottom line is if Steven is not hitting shots, the Zags lose.

Not only do they miss his offense, but it puts more pressure on Bouldin and it gives more freedom for opponents to clog the paint, force double teams, etc.

even than Steven (rhyme intended, but unavoidable).

No inside game (boards, points, blocks, disruption, etc.) = lossses. Past, present, future.

BroncoZAG615
02-19-2010, 09:02 AM
Steven was playing fantastic at the start of the game.

I think he was 2-4 with two made threes. He was also playing great D and had three or four assists in the first five minutes.

Then the subs started and Steven came out and never got himself back together.

If I've learned one thing, it is that when you have Steven Gray playing good, there is NO reason to pull him. He's streaky as hell. Manny came in and played great but we lost Steven after the first five minutes when he went to the bench.

CDC84
02-19-2010, 09:09 AM
The interior guys were not good last night, but again, Steven is supposed to be the team's best offensive wing and sharpshooter. He has to deliver and he hasn't in GU's losses and in several of their tougher games. Otherwise it becomes a situation where LMU can more easily double team the bigs and cut off all easy post entries. Granted, it certainly doesn't help that Sacre continues to have a small forward next to him (Harris) as opposed to a real big man.

Unless the staff can come up with a diamond in the rough combo guard this spring, I think they are seriously going to have to consider moving Harris to the 3, Gray to the 2 and grouping Sacre with Olynyk or Dower in the post.

B-hamZag
02-19-2010, 09:26 AM
I think few is using and mixing up the lineup to much. Its hard to be consistant or to have team chemistry on the floor if its always random. I know we have alot of talent but I dont like the rotations that Few is doing right now. I think I saw this in the San Fran game as well.

BMAN
02-19-2010, 09:54 AM
The interior guys were not good last night, but again, Steven is supposed to be the team's best offensive wing and sharpshooter. He has to deliver and he hasn't in GU's losses and in several of their tougher games. Otherwise it becomes a situation where LMU can more easily double team the bigs and cut off all easy post entries. Granted, it certainly doesn't help that Sacre continues to have a small forward next to him (Harris) as opposed to a real big man.

Unless the staff can come up with a diamond in the rough combo guard this spring, I think they are seriously going to have to consider moving Harris to the 3, Gray to the 2 and grouping Sacre with Olynyk or Dower in the post.


They should move Harris to three next year anyway. He will be a 3 in the NBA and he said he is going to work on his 3 point shot. It doesn't make sense to leave him at the 4 where he is out of position and undersized and have Olynyk and Dower sitting on the bench next year.

cjm720
02-19-2010, 09:59 AM
They should move Harris to three next year anyway. He will be a 3 in the NBA and he said he is going to work on his 3 point shot. It doesn't make sense to leave him at the 4 where he is out of position and undersized and have Olynyk and Dower sitting on the bench next year.

I would agree except what about Arop? I guess it's a good situation to be in, but PT will continue to be an intersting debate next year.

BMAN
02-19-2010, 10:42 AM
I would agree except what about Arop? I guess it's a good situation to be in, but PT will continue to be an intersting debate next year.



I know they will have to get Arop some major minutes. He could come off the bench to back-up Harris and Gray. It will be interesting next year.

allnet59
02-19-2010, 11:16 AM
I can agree with the Steven Gray assumption but Robert Sacre doesn't play nearly to his size and ability. He has to have the weekest set of hands for a big guy i have ever seen. 27 minutes and two points from the charity line. Even Foster scored two points in a seven minute outing and dished out two assists which are two more then the point guard. With the way they handled Harris down low Robert has to step up and be the man in the middle. Will has an even better feel for passing out of the double team to someone wide open then Sacre before the defense slaps the ball out of Roberts week hands. In the last ten years the center on this team has at least gotten to the free throw line because of their desire to bully their way around down low. :mad: I wish Few would have gone to a smaller quicker line up to match LMU's intensity. He put Manny in and he produced and then out he goes to the bench and nothin. Go Figure!

MickMick
02-19-2010, 12:25 PM
I love Matt's game as much as anyone. I have been heaping praise on him for a couple of weeks now.

But if we are going to pick on Gray, then we can go ahead and say that Matt absolutely stunk it up as well. So did Harris. So did Sacre.

Goodson played well.

I personally think it is unfair to single out Steven in this case.

Bouldin4Prez
02-19-2010, 12:59 PM
The one thing that I can say about Gray is that he plays all out at every point in every game. He is always moving on offense, and playing good defense. These are some things I cannot say about all of the other players on the team. If everyone else played with the intensity Gray brought at both ends last night, I feel they would have won.

alaskazagnut
02-19-2010, 01:05 PM
Steven was playing fantastic at the start of the game.

I think he was 2-4 with two made threes. He was also playing great D and had three or four assists in the first five minutes.

Then the subs started and Steven came out and never got himself back together.

If I've learned one thing, it is that when you have Steven Gray playing good, there is NO reason to pull him. He's streaky as hell. Manny came in and played great but we lost Steven after the first five minutes when he went to the bench.


Like I said yesterday. This one is on the coaching staff for thinking we could mess with the rotation far too soon. It sickens me every time we get out of our game for the sake of experimentation or clock management. The frosh kids will get their time. Now is Boudin, Gray, Goodson, Sacre's and Harris's time. Keep it that way until they get in fould trouble. That is what the bench is for. IMO.

maynard g krebs
02-19-2010, 02:50 PM
Throw out the Mich St. game, and Sacre is 8-31 in the other 4 losses, so his bad games do coincide with Gray's to a large extent. Also, in the 3 "quality" losses, Meech was 4-16, while in the 2 "bad" losses, he was 9-14 (64%). So he's offensively ineffective in the big games, but dominates WCC foes with his athleticism. Fun with numbers.

Almost every shooter is going to have games where shots don't fall. Certainly Gray's overall 3% isn't what we'd hoped, but I think the issue is more one of not having any shooting from the pg position to pick up the slack when Gray's shot isn't falling. Nobody is going to be on every night, and when Gray is off the team becomes too easy to guard because of the sort of domino effect that results when opponents can focus elsewhere. Singling out Gray oversimplifies the issue imo.

Reborn
02-19-2010, 03:11 PM
I agree that it was Few's fault for subbing way too much. Guys who were hot at one point (Gray and Arop) were yanked for no reason. I think Steven got upset. After the timeout, when the shotting clock had one second on it, Steven walked back onto the court and walked slowly all the way down to where they were setting up their D to stop them. The camara got a good up close of Gray and to me he looked as if he could have cared less, and I saw that attitude on his face a lot last night. I'm not sure what causes that. I do think he was upset about being yanked early when he was hitting. And why was GJ Villareno in the game ? That to me showed that Few really thought he had that game in the bag. There is something called cohesivenes and team chemistry and it was upset last night. By Mark Few. There are teams Will Foster should not play in, and that he didn't play in last time we played these teams. LMU was one and Pepperdine is another. Will can not guard a 6-7" inch center. Their center killed us last night. I would have put Arop on him.

Thomas_Sutpen
02-19-2010, 03:22 PM
The camara got a good up close of Gray and to me he looked as if he could have cared less, and I saw that attitude on his face a lot last night. I'm not sure what causes that.

Wow, you're quite the mind reader, aren't you? From your living room, no less. Impressive!

Gray's always been a streaky shooter, so I'm not sure why folks are determined to translate this in terms of desire. Do you think when he's shooting well he "cares" more? Could you read that in his facial expressions?

Meech has the stereotypical "game face" more than anybody, but it doesn't seem to help his shooting %.

Nothing like micromanaging every facet of the game after a loss. Carry on.

gamagin
02-19-2010, 03:37 PM
Wow, you're quite the mind reader, aren't you? From your living room, no less. Impressive!

Gray's always been a streaky shooter, so I'm not sure why folks are determined to translate this in terms of desire. Do you think when he's shooting well he "cares" more? Could you read that in his facial expressions?

Meech has the stereotypical "game face" more than anybody, but it doesn't seem to help his shooting %.

Nothing like micromanaging every facet of the game after a loss. Carry on.

nonsense on stilts.

zag944
02-19-2010, 03:41 PM
those are very telling statistics, and I hardly feel like it is "picking on" Gray.

Fact is he is a much more valuable player to our team than I think most people give him credit for. Every player has off nights, and I think it is telling that often his coincide with our losses. He brings a lot to the table.

MDABE80
02-19-2010, 03:46 PM
Just a comment...and STeven's data is accurately displayed by CDC. In this last game, there was PLENTY of bad shooting to go around. Not just Gray but out best guys flagged. ALL of em. Played out of kilter and shot like...well..not so well. Steven does have a tendency to fail in some of the bigger games. Not sure why but he does. No big deal.
He's not being singled out in a bad way... him and big games are rough mixes. He's had some majorly good games too...UConn and Davidson ( in the tournament) come to mind. This season though...it's like CDC wrote. On the bright side though, he looks like he has his stroke back...hope this continues.

UberZagFan
02-19-2010, 03:51 PM
That loss took a team effort. Matty B's 3-12 FG and 0-4 3FG is much to write home about. Neither is Sacre's 0-5.

Hey, the good news is that they were 85% from the line. So much for Uber's theory that the woes from the charity stripe would result in a loss sooner or later. Apparently, they are well capable of losing to a RPI >150 team while hitting their FTs.

vandalzag
02-19-2010, 03:56 PM
One flaw in the theory is that they are clogging the paint and doubling with Steven's man and that is not the case. The defense on him last night was pretty tight, in fact his issues with driving were due to help from other players. There were plays last night where goodson's guy was 20 feet away doubling and making steals or causing TO's. The ball has to be rotated, especially since goodson was having some success going to the hoop.

Many issues with last nights game, one being Goodson with zero assists. Regardless of his role, he is a point guard and has to initiate some offense, that is what is putting too much pressure on Bouldin.

But this was a total player and coach effort. As was pointed out above Steven hits two in a row and sits. Arop has great production in the first half and barely sees the floor in the second half. KO does some good things and then sits for the 2nd half. Our two bigs lposted the most lethargic and unimpressive double figure rebounding game I have ever seen. It would be nice to see the staff shake things up a bit when the team hits is mid game funk(maybe a full court press or run some type of offensive set beyond the isolation pick an roll...here's a thought break out the old crackdown play).
Bottom line the boys tried to play at a C+ effort level and got caught. Should never have happened after the SF loss. Hopefully they will drop the hammer on Pep on Saturday.

GrizZAG
02-19-2010, 10:46 PM
By chance today on the "Fan" in Portland I listened to Brian Scalabrine of the Boston Celtics discussing misconceptions about how the media and public interpret the dynamics of games. He was saying we (general public) and the media focus too much on scoring and the big flashy plays, but he says there are times when a productive scoring player will not score well because of the necessity of a match up and mission that take them out of their normal role. Saying there are a few exceptions..i.e., Kobe & Labron, most end up there regularly.
As it relates to our painful loss last night, I think Few was struggling to find matchups to counter the well planned defense LMU put forth thus creating real havoc with the Zags normal flow. That is what a good coach can do and we have to give LMU's coach credit for pulling it off sorry to say.
My only observation perhaps relevant, maybe not is it looked like when it got down to the wire and we needed to make some ground up quickly, the sense of urgency was not there as the clock ticked away. No way Gray should have been WALKING as he dribbled the ball down on the inbound. We simply didn't find the formula in the stretch.
I think we would all agree that we have been blessed with alot better season than we expected early on this year. If this team can find the gas peddle and keep it down they will go deep.

Xin Loi 67
02-20-2010, 09:26 AM
Like I said yesterday. This one is on the coaching staff for thinking we could mess with the rotation far too soon. It sickens me every time we get out of our game for the sake of experimentation or clock management. The frosh kids will get their time. Now is Boudin, Gray, Goodson, Sacre's and Harris's time. Keep it that way until they get in fould trouble. That is what the bench is for. IMO.

+1

Coach O
02-20-2010, 03:07 PM
Losses bring out the character of players as well as the fans. The "finger pointers" emerge...

The Zags got outworked in every aspect of the game vs. LMU. LMU recoverd more loose balls, they were more active on defense with deflections and by doubling down hard on the post, and they found the open man on offense. If our guards aren't hitting the outside shot when teams are doubling the post, we are in trouble. LMU deserved to win the game. We didn't and it rests on the team's shoulders.

The fact of the matter is that Steven has struggled with his shot most of the season; in wins and losses. He is 14/45 (31%) in the last 10 games. Not too good, but what impresses me about Steven are the other things he contributes even when his shot is not falling. Keep firing away!

This is a fairly inexperienced team besides Bouldin and Gray and as excited we fans are for the WCC playoffs and March Madness, many teams hit a wall of fatigue at this point in the season. Especially young teams. I do hope this is not the case for us, but we will soon find out as the weeks progress.

I am excited to see how Gonzaga responds vs Pepperdine tonight. I am jealous my mom and dad will be in attendance with a short drive over from their snowbird home in Phoenix.

GO ZAGS!