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View Full Version : Jamie Dixon=BCS Elitist Jerk; Mark Few=NonBCS Leader



Midwestzag
02-18-2010, 07:56 AM
Below is a quote from Andy Katz's blog:

(comment from former NCAA tourney committee member)... "Do that then a 6-10 team in the Big East with a great player or a great coach is going to get in. You have to reward the teams you think are the most deserving, who performed and live up to their potential. Isn't that what it's all about? If we start looking at the bigger, faster and stronger teams out there with the best reputations, then 14 teams from the Big East would get in. That would leave out a wonderful team like Saint Mary's."


Interesting the committee member would mention the Gaels. Late Monday night, Pitt coach Jamie Dixon said he was watching the Saint Mary's-Portland game and didn't see two Big East teams playing.


And while he's right, Gonzaga coach Mark Few said Tuesday that while those two teams don't have the size or athleticism or the ability to defend like a true Big East team, they are more skilled, especially shooting the basketball, than a number of Big East teams, making it a comparable factor in trying to beat them.


Two thoughts/comments:
1. The BCS crew will always try to screw the nonBCS conferences. Another reason not to expand the tourney;

2. I tire of the grabbing, beat you up, physical style of basketball that many big east teams play and Tenn.and Kansas State. I'll give you bigger, faster, stronger and skilled, but sometimes bigger and faster without the skill does not make for good basketball or even victories. The zags have adapted to the physical demands of top 20 teams; however, I agree with Bilas that there should be some rule changes to decrease banging and grabbing off the ball.

GUZagDenver
02-18-2010, 08:06 AM
Elitist??? Please. The guy is used to watching Big East teams, and is probably a little biased, but his point is valid. I watched SMC play the other night too. They are not an NCAA tournament team. If SMC plays Louisville on a nuetral court tomorrow, Louisville wins by 15, and they aren't going to get a sniff at the tournament.

Why do people on this board feel the need to defend the WCC??? Our conference is terrible. Look at the RPI's that were previosuly posted in another thread. We are a 1 bid league, sorry folks.

bballbeachbum
02-18-2010, 08:15 AM
first must win the WCC tournament, then we're 1 bid, agreed...no carts before the horse please :)

Zagpower
02-18-2010, 08:17 AM
I really like Jamie Dixon and I would agree with him on his comment.

I've been watching alot of Big East games this year and the talent difference between the middle and lower middle level Big East teams and all WCC teams not named Gonzaga is noticeable.

Big East

1) Syracuse
2) Villanova
3) West Virginia
4) Pitt
5) Georgetown
6) Louisville
7) Marquette
8) S. Florida
9) Seton Hall
10) Cincinnati
11) Notre Dame
12) Connecticut

That is a loaded conference. Not just by name, but by players. Even the 10th and 12th place teams will be sending multiple players to the Pros. You can't say that about the middle of the WCC.

The talent in the Big 12 is also noticeably better. Not even talking about the top teams like Texas or Kansas but even teams in the middle of the league, many I think would easily place second in the WCC this year.

sonuvazag
02-18-2010, 08:28 AM
LMU beat Notre Dame in South Bend. What other examples of Big East v WCC are there?

23dpg
02-18-2010, 08:31 AM
Gonzaga beat Cincinnati.

ZagInTexas
02-18-2010, 08:49 AM
Below is a quote from Andy Katz's blog:

(comment from former NCAA tourney committee member)... "Do that then a 6-10 team in the Big East with a great player or a great coach is going to get in. You have to reward the teams you think are the most deserving, who performed and live up to their potential. Isn't that what it's all about? If we start looking at the bigger, faster and stronger teams out there with the best reputations, then 14 teams from the Big East would get in. That would leave out a wonderful team like Saint Mary's."


Interesting the committee member would mention the Gaels. Late Monday night, Pitt coach Jamie Dixon said he was watching the Saint Mary's-Portland game and didn't see two Big East teams playing.


And while he's right, Gonzaga coach Mark Few said Tuesday that while those two teams don't have the size or athleticism or the ability to defend like a true Big East team, they are more skilled, especially shooting the basketball, than a number of Big East teams, making it a comparable factor in trying to beat them.


Two thoughts/comments:
1. The BCS crew will always try to screw the nonBCS conferences. Another reason not to expand the tourney;

2. I tire of the grabbing, beat you up, physical style of basketball that many big east teams play and Tenn.and Kansas State. I'll give you bigger, faster, stronger and skilled, but sometimes bigger and faster without the skill does not make for good basketball or even victories. The zags have adapted to the physical demands of top 20 teams; however, I agree with Bilas that there should be some rule changes to decrease banging and grabbing off the ball.

I'm actually shocked that Dixon said that. Coaching, not matter what level in DI, is a fraternity and you don't usually see too many coaches dissing other teams. Normally, they are over complimentary to each other.

I agree that when he was watching SMC-POR, they are not Big East teams. That's not West Coast style basketball. He could watch Pac-10 basketball (even from a couple of years ago) and not seen Big East Basketball. It is widely known that West Coast basketball is more uptempo and skilled (same can be said about SEC hoops), while Midwest and East is more rugged and slower paced. I hope he wasn't trying to take a shot at SMC and POR, because our conference bros are two of the more skilled teams in the country (check the FG and 3-pt FG % they back that up) as Coach Few noted. If it was a shot at SMC and POR, it wasn't a very intelligent one. Just my two cents.

CDC84
02-18-2010, 08:50 AM
I can't disagree with Dixon's basic observation, but the committee's job is not to pick teams who look the best on film or who have the most 5 star recruits. The teams who get in the field need to accomplish something, and if you're in a major conference and lose a lot of league games, you better have a solid non-league resume to make up for it. The problem that St. Mary's has is that they accomplished very little in the non-conference portion of their schedule, so they had very little margin for error in WCC play.

ZagInTexas
02-18-2010, 08:58 AM
I can't disagree with Dixon's basic observation, but the committee's job is not to pick teams who look the best on film or who have the most 5 star recruits. The teams who get in the field need to accomplish something, and if you're in a major conference and lose a lot of league games, you better have a solid non-league resume to make up for it. The problem that St. Mary's has is that they accomplished very little in the non-conference portion of their schedule, so they had very little margin for error in WCC play.

Agreed. Saint Mary's did have little room for error in WCC play and very well may have played themselves out of the tournament on Saturday. I will say that one thing that really stands out for me about SMC's non-conf schedule is their win at Utah State. If you know anything about basketball, then you know that playing at Utah State is one of the toughest things to do in all of college hoops. IMO one of the top 10 toughest places to play in all of DI. There is a reason that they don't get many BCS teams to play there. Traveling to Logan is a b-tch, then you have to face a very good team in front of 11,000 fans that are right on top of you. Two nights before SMC beat Utah State in Logan, the Aggies handed BYU a 10-point loss. IMO, that win is as good as any and shows that they at least deserve to be considered. I for one hope they get in. A good SMC (or any other WCC team for that matter), is good for my Zags!

webspinnre
02-18-2010, 08:59 AM
I'm with CDC - this isn't about which is the better team on paper, its about which team has performed better. I've got no problem with 6 or 7 Big East teams making the dance, but after that its crazy to start arguing about extra ones - if a team can't finish in the top 6 of its own league, do they really need to be in the NCAA tourney? I just can't feel bad for teams that low in their conference, even if on paper they're better.

Zagpower
02-18-2010, 09:01 AM
What I don't like is that teams like St Marys can only play themselves out of the tournament at this point of the season. The middle of the pack BCS teams keep getting chance after chance against top teams to redeem themselves.

ZagInTexas
02-18-2010, 09:04 AM
What I don't like is that teams like St Marys can only play themselves out of the tournament at this point of the season. The middle of the pack BCS teams keep getting chance after chance against top teams to redeem themselves.

Actually, SMC can still playing their way <b>in>/b> the tournament with a win in the WCC Tournament final in LV. ;)

CB4
02-18-2010, 09:07 AM
Few may be right that SMC and Portland are more skilled, but they would get chewed up and spit out in the Big East. Put those teams up against Cincinnati and would get physically beat down.

Nevtelen
02-18-2010, 09:10 AM
I really like Jamie Dixon and I would agree with him on his comment.

I've been watching alot of Big East games this year and the talent difference between the middle and lower middle level Big East teams and all WCC teams not named Gonzaga is noticeable.

Big East

1) Syracuse
2) Villanova
3) West Virginia
4) Pitt
5) Georgetown
6) Louisville
7) Marquette
8) S. Florida
9) Seton Hall
10) Cincinnati
11) Notre Dame
12) Connecticut

That is a loaded conference. Not just by name, but by players. Even the 10th and 12th place teams will be sending multiple players to the Pros. You can't say that about the middle of the WCC.

The talent in the Big 12 is also noticeably better. Not even talking about the top teams like Texas or Kansas but even teams in the middle of the league, many I think would easily place second in the WCC this year.

True that these teams have a lot more lauded recruits than just about any WCC team, but recruits (even pros) do not necessarily make a team great. IMO that's what makes college bball different and better (for me) than the pros - on a given night a group of guys who don't have the athleticism and power of high-level players can come out and beat a so-called 'better' team on any given night.

Also - agreed with Zagpower: BCS teams have every possible chance of catching a decent team on an off night over and over again at this time of the season. Mid-majors just don't have that kind of chance at this late date. Another reason it makes me sick to my stomach seeing teams like UConn get in, who have consistently underperformed for most of the season and then get a couple of big wins on off-nights for some team and probably squeak in even though their overall resume isn't good.

Zagpower
02-18-2010, 09:17 AM
I'm with you Web, I always error on the side of the non-bcs schools.

The argument the BCS boys make is which is a better performace: losing games to the Tops 20 Teams (mostly on the road) or beating a RPI 300 team?

It could still be about performance. I say we performed better in our loss to MSU than we did in several of our wins against weak opponents.
That to me is still judging our play on the court even if it was a L.

When I think of performance on the court, I think of winning the games you should win. How many times were you upset this year? SMC and GU both hold up pretty well by that standard.

GoZags
02-18-2010, 09:18 AM
While it's neither here nor there, it should be noted that Jamie Dixon is very good friends with the Gonzaga staff. I made the mistake of making a somewhat disparaging comment about Pitt's OOC SOS the night before the Zags played down in Tulsa a few years ago.

I was quickly advised (by both Mark and Leon) to lay off Pitt and Jamie -- they're friends of the program. Good friends.

CDC84
02-18-2010, 09:26 AM
What I don't like is that teams like St Marys can only play themselves out of the tournament at this point of the season. The middle of the pack BCS teams keep getting chance after chance against top teams to redeem themselves.

This is why Gonzaga goes out on the road and plays a tough non-league sked. Same thing with Xavier. It's just the way it is. The coaches will never say this in public, but they know that once league play starts, the WCC, for the most part, isn't going to do them many favors.

I mean, there are times when I wish the younger Gonzaga teams could stay at home and play more easy teams, but they really don't have any choice if they want to get in the dance and get a decent seed. Such is life.

The only thing that I wish national commentators would recognize more is that when GU plays USD or Pepperdine, it's not the same as Pitt playing USD or Georgetown playing Pepperdine. The WCC teams are intimately familar with Gonzaga, and because of that, they are able to put up more of a fight and are sometimes able to beat GU. It's also different because while Pitt would never agree to play AT USD, the Zags have to. Generally, when BCS teams visit WCC venues, they either lose or are given a very stiff challenge.

Zagpower
02-18-2010, 09:30 AM
Actually, SMC can still playing their way <b>in>/b> the tournament with a win in the WCC Tournament final in LV. ;)

Good point! :D
I spaced that away.

But the BCS schools can play their way in by winning the conference tourny or just by winning a few league games over top teams.

ZagInTexas
02-18-2010, 09:30 AM
This is why Gonzaga goes out on the road and plays a tough non-league sked. Same thing with Xavier. It's just the way it is. The coaches will never say this in public, but they know that once league play starts, the WCC, for the most part, isn't going to do them many favors.

I mean, there are times when I wish the younger Gonzaga teams could stay at home and play more easy teams, but they really don't have any choice if they want to get in the dance and get a decent seed. Such is life.

The only thing that I wish national commentators would recognize more is that when GU plays USD or Pepperdine, it's not the same as Pitt playing USD or Georgetown playing Pepperdine. The WCC teams are intimately familar with Gonzaga, and because of that, they are able to put up more of a fight and are sometimes able to beat GU. It's also different because while Pitt would never agree to play AT USD, the Zags have to. Generally, when BCS teams visit WCC venues, they either lose or are given a very stiff challenge.

CDC, are you trying to insinuate that the USD coaching staff has intimate knowledge of the GU program??? Outrageous! ;)

Zagpower
02-18-2010, 09:44 AM
A lot of the WCC is playing on the road in front of 500-1500 fans. A road win in the WCC for most teams is not nearly as difficult as winning at Syracuse or Georgetown or Pitt with huge boisterous home crowds that are there for most every league game not just GU.

The game between Louisville and Notre Dame yesterday (the 6th and 11th place teams) had 19,600 fans.

Syracuse had 31,000 at their last game.

While the WCC might sneak up and give them a game or even win on a one-time cross country pre-conference road trip, I don't believe the WCC teams would fair nearly as well this year if they had to play a prepared Big East team that is familiar with their style.

The Big East is also much more balanced. Blowouts are rare and close games have been the norm all year.

Again, I'm not saying it's that way every year, I just believe that this year, there is a world of difference that shows up during on-court play and not just due to hyped prospects or natural bias.

Robzagnut
02-18-2010, 09:45 AM
Politics and positioning.

The guy is fighting for his conference to get an extra bid. Happens every year. Don't see why anyone is surprised by coaches making these statements this time of year.

Midwestzag
02-18-2010, 09:55 AM
While it's neither here nor there, it should be noted that Jamie Dixon is very good friends with the Gonzaga staff. I made the mistake of making a somewhat disparaging comment about Pitt's OOC SOS the night before the Zags played down in Tulsa a few years ago.

I was quickly advised (by both Mark and Leon) to lay off Pitt and Jamie -- they're friends of the program. Good friends.

Ok, I'll retract the "jerk" comment.
My point is that the 2nd and 3rd place teams in the WCC could certainly compete with the bottom half of the Big East and the Middle of most other conferences. Yes, SMC and Portland are not prototypical Big East teams, but that does not mean they couldn't get their share of victories against BCS teams.

The Big East is loaded but we do not need more than 6 of their teams in the NCAAs. If the NCAAs expanded, every BCS conference would be lobbying to get 80% of their league in each year.

U Zig, I Zag
02-18-2010, 09:59 AM
I'm actually shocked that Dixon said that. Coaching, not matter what level in DI, is a fraternity and you don't usually see too many coaches dissing other teams. Normally, they are over complimentary to each other.

I agree that when he was watching SMC-POR, they are not Big East teams. That's not West Coast style basketball. He could watch Pac-10 basketball (even from a couple of years ago) and not seen Big East Basketball. It is widely known that West Coast basketball is more uptempo and skilled (same can be said about SEC hoops), while Midwest and East is more rugged and slower paced. I hope he wasn't trying to take a shot at SMC and POR, because our conference bros are two of the more skilled teams in the country (check the FG and 3-pt FG % they back that up) as Coach Few noted. If it was a shot at SMC and POR, it wasn't a very intelligent one. Just my two cents.

The interesting thing is that when we took it to St. Mary's at home we basically played a BE style of ball. On defense anyway. We used our athleticism to shut down key players and stayed in their grills the whole time. Instead of being a complete grinder like some BE games though it was a good scoring affair because GU can shoot and has some finesse to go along with the brute.

I think SMC would get killed by even the middle of the pack BE teams. Just too physical. Especially on the road in front of 20k. SMC gets rattled in front of 6K.

GU is just on a different level. I think we would be top 1/3rd in most conferences. I would love for SMC/WCC to represent this year but it's not going to happen. It would mean GU losing in Vegas and we can't let that happen, we got to put ourselves first...

d2zag
02-18-2010, 10:02 AM
Is it as simple as if SMC beats Vandy and doesn't lose to Portland they are in the tourney???

TexasZagFan
02-18-2010, 10:07 AM
Few may be right that SMC and Portland are more skilled, but they would get chewed up and spit out in the Big East. Put those teams up against Cincinnati and would get physically beat down.

IIRC, SMC was physically beat down by the Zags last week. IMHO, the emergence of Will has allowed Rob to unleash his fury on his opponents.

GoZags
02-18-2010, 10:22 AM
Is it as simple as if SMC beats Vandy and doesn't lose to Portland they are in the tourney???

IMHO, yes. Although with a win over Vanderbilt -- the Portland loss doesn't hurt as much.

bballbeachbum
02-18-2010, 10:46 AM
IIRC, SMC was physically beat down by the Zags last week. IMHO, the emergence of Will has allowed Rob to unleash his fury on his opponents.

good call...right on time! rounding into a two-headed monster in the post they are, especially if they keep climbing each step in front of them like they have been for many games now

keep stacking them up! You can!!!

titopoet
02-18-2010, 11:10 AM
The only thing that I wish national commentators would recognize more is that when GU plays USD or Pepperdine, it's not the same as Pitt playing USD or Georgetown playing Pepperdine.

Not to mention, they have to play USD and Pepperdine in their home gym. Vandy barely got out of SMC with a W. (then they laid an egg in Maui).

I know Dixon was talking for his league, so I don't hold anything against him. Coaches will always campaign for the leagues. Though to get in a dig on the Big East, he is right about not seeing two Big East teams. No one one had a police record. (Just a Joke, Folks):)

jim77
02-18-2010, 11:41 AM
I seem to remember us playing a darn near perfect game against ST Mary's (at ST. Mary's)and barely pulling it out. We also barely got by a couple of other WCC teams as well....and the season isn't over yet either. I think If ST Mary's wins out and loses to us in the conference tourney, they should go. Why would they mention the WCC anyway? Sounds like their worried. There are other conferences that the BCS teams can steal a bid from. One other thing....the size of the crowds don't matter in the tourney because there usually neutral site.

Most will disagree with me but, every year 5 or 6 teams get screwed in not getting selected. Expand the dance to 72 and leave it there....96 is rediculous.

FlyZag
02-18-2010, 01:08 PM
Digger had an interesting take on the mid major vs BCS dilemma. Rather than wondering if a Butler, St. Maries or Gonzaga could compete with the mid tier BCS schools... He said, could an Illinois or Cincinnati go undefeated in a mid major conference. Since every year these so called inferior mid-majors consistently beat the BCS schools on neutral courts. I had never heard that argument before.

CDC84
02-18-2010, 01:29 PM
Interesting point made in MD's 3 pointers column today:


Lower middle class

When NCAA Tournament selections are made and the inevitable braying begins regarding the at-large bids consumed by BCS schools, remember that even the best mid-majors did not distinguish themselves against high-major opponents.

On neutral courts against BCS opponents, the elite mids mostly wound up in the consolation brackets — including Northern Iowa in Puerto Rico, Saint Mary's in the Diamond Head Classic and Butler in the 76 Classic.

The five mid-majors with the highest RPIs — Butler, UNI, Siena, Utah State and Old Dominion — went 8-6 against BCS opponents. Half the wins came against bottom-feeding teams such as Iowa and Boston College.

If they were to miss on automatics, UNI and Butler would deserve at-large bids. But just as this has not been a vintage season for the Pac-10, the mid-majors haven't been partying like it's 2006.

FWIW - MD doesn't consider Gonzaga to be a mid major program. Hence, their absence from this column.

maynard g krebs
02-18-2010, 02:21 PM
Elitist??? Please. The guy is used to watching Big East teams, and is probably a little biased, but his point is valid. I watched SMC play the other night too. They are not an NCAA tournament team. If SMC plays Louisville on a nuetral court tomorrow, Louisville wins by 15, and they aren't going to get a sniff at the tournament.

Why do people on this board feel the need to defend the WCC??? Our conference is terrible. Look at the RPI's that were previosuly posted in another thread. We are a 1 bid league, sorry folks.

St. Marys' roster looks a lot like the 2000 S16 Zags imo, and they play a lot like them- a savvy, good passing team with deadly 3pt shooters and a quality big man who demands attention and can score on anybody. And they're comparably limited athletically.

They would be a feared double digit seed imo, one that could easily get hot and win a couple. A team no one wants to play, regular season or post.

007Zag
02-18-2010, 02:34 PM
The reality is that the tourney selections (like everything else in life) isn't simple. It's very complex. St. Mary's (like every team in the nation) has/had the chance to win their league. It doesn't look like they'll do it. They're now at the mercy of how many at-large bids will be left after the power conferences get their four or five bids. St. Mary's needs to pray that the runaway favorite from every smaller conference wins their respective conference tournaments. They also can't afford bad teams from major conferences suddenly getting hot and winning three or four games in a row and stealing an auto-bid.

The fact of the matter is it's not a matter of what St. Mary's deserves. Last year's Gaels squad probably deserved a bid a lot more than this one does, but it didn't pan out that way. It'll all come down to how the chips fall bid-wise in conference tourneys. If St. Mary's doesn't like it that way, they need to win the WCC tourney, or at least improve their OOC in the future. I know it'll be hard, but that's the way it is, and it's part of what makes March Madness so incredible.

Xin Loi 67
02-18-2010, 02:47 PM
anymore "Fundemental Changes". I believe this type of a change would cheapen the value and effort needed to be chosen. Watered Whiskey is what is being sold.

CDC84
02-18-2010, 03:52 PM
The argument that is being waged by some of the "expansionists" is that because a 96 team tournament would likely involve first round byes, the regular season wouldn't be rendered meaningless, and the field really wouldn't be watered down. The mediocre teams would just kill off one another before the real tournament begins. I can see their point in a way, but my argument is that 19% of the teams in D-1 basketball right now get in the dance. If you really, really think about it, that's a lot of teams. You really have to mess up to not make the dance. And while it angers me at times when I see low major teams sweep thru their league undefeated but lose a spot in the dance because they can't win 3 games in 3 days on some other team's home floor, that's ultimately a conference problem. They have the choice to send their regular season champ to the dance like the Ivy League does, but these leagues will sell their souls for the chance to get on TV.

RenoZag
02-18-2010, 06:35 PM
LMU beat Notre Dame in South Bend.




I can see why. . .

dpouley
02-18-2010, 09:04 PM
Wait, I have an honest question about this thread.

In the complaint against what Jamie Dixon said, and the fact that some are outraged at what he said, I guess I am wondering...

Do you think that SMC and Portland are up to the level of Big East teams?

I would agree with the thought that Portland and SMC could probably beat some of the Big East teams that are at the lower end of the standings. However, if SMC or Portland were in the Big East as opposed to the WCC both teams would have LOSING records in the Big East. They are not as talented, not as deep and not as skilled. PERIOD.

Gonzaga in the Big East would probably have a winning record, but I would bet that they would not be more than 2 or three games over .500 in the Big East. That Conference is loaded with top to bottom better talent and better coaches (although I think Few would be one of the better coaches in the league). How is that a knock on SMC or Portland?