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allnet59
01-21-2010, 09:05 PM
I had the opportunity to go to the game tonight and i walked out wondering how Robert Sacre can play over twenty minutes and not score a single point from either the floor or the charity stripe. He really looked slow on his feet and didn't seem to even begin to use his size to position himself for a entry pass. He started out the season like everyone expected for all the hype and has slowly disappeared for all but one game of late. I really noticed even his teammates have lost some confidence by not working harder to get him the ball in the low post. And especially tonight given his size advantage. Hey even Will the Thrill gets into the game for just a few minutes and makes a wonderful turn around jump shot from eight feet and then gets pulled for almost the rest of the game, i say give him some more minutes and may be it will light a fire under him. I can certainly appreciate his three assists tonight but this team needs him to really score around ten points a game down low to take the pressure off the outside game if they want to be as successful as they can be. Just an observation

NovaZag
01-21-2010, 09:26 PM
Agreed. He had some good looks, but isn't hitting the shots like he did two months ago. He didn't even get to the free throw line. There needs to be a better effort to get him the ball, to reestablish his presence as a scorer. He also needs to demand the ball and reassert himself into the game.

CDC84
01-21-2010, 09:29 PM
It has to do with Rob being out of the flow of the game too much due to his inability to stay out of foul trouble.

I am starting to believe that if Rob collects a couple of fouls in a WCC game in the first half, Few should just leave him in there. Let him learn how to deal with it. He's never going to learn to stay out of foul trouble if he's sitting all the time. It's overly protective at times. If he picks up two more quickies and has to sit with 4 fouls, so be it. It's not like the competition is Kentucky and Kansas. It's not like Gonzaga must have him to beat a team with a losing record.

allnet59
01-21-2010, 09:49 PM
Given his foul troubles so early into the game maybe he would benifit by not starting and coming off the bench at the first tv timeout. I can agree that the ticky tack fouls he seems to get called for must really detour his aggression and he simply drifts away offensively. Given his natural size playing against a smaller opponent down low i wish he would just pivot to the basket without a dribble and either shoot or use a cross over step sometimes to create a shot. Hey a couple made free throws after being fouled work just as good as a nicely placed jump or hook shot. I wish him luck.

jeremymccreary
01-21-2010, 09:55 PM
I totally agree.... I have no clue why they are going away from getting the ball to SAcre on the block... early in the season they were going to him NON STOP!!! Gray and Bouldin had a couple of below average games and since I've seen a tremendous amount of on ball screens to free them up...

Tonight you could tell the starting cast wasnt used to playing with Will.... they still played a lot better WITH him on the court.

Gonzaga with Foster, Gonzaga 12, Pepperdine 4
Gonzaga without Fosster 74 Gonzaga, 75 Pepperdine

That being said..... I would be extremely surprised if the starting 5 plays on the same team as Foster in practice. the lob to Foster by Gray in the 1st half is why..... I think the lob pass almost went over the backboard.. Also.... a lot of plays seem to be going to Harris on a clear out.... I LOVE IT... although Sacre on a post is nice. If the coaching staff plans on relying on Bouldin and Gray to carry the team..... Sacre needs reduced minutes... and I think the coaching staff realizes Foster needs more minutes. IMO that's why Foster was in at the 16 minute mark. I think they will slowly start putting him in before Olynek....

jeremymccreary
01-21-2010, 09:58 PM
dont get the calls in the WCC.... getting tired of watching officials give the benefit of the doubt to the other team 99% of the time.

Sacre doesnt look like the same Sacre from games 1-8 or so...

allnet59
01-21-2010, 10:18 PM
Malastein i totally agree with you on the scouting of Sacre and unfortunatly Robert seems to always to turn to his right and then takes a dribble to set up a hook shot or short jumper. By then the double team has crowded him down low with no where to go. He's still young and has alot to learn but even Kelly seems to work harder down low for position on both ends of the court being a true freshman. I'm sure the coaching staff would like to see more production from Robert even if he does foul out of a few games. Samhan can't jump a lick but desires the ball when down low and Rob has way more talent then that guy. Just get it done big fella!

allnet59
01-21-2010, 10:20 PM
errrrrr i meant he turns to the left:confused:

tinfoilzag
01-21-2010, 10:21 PM
Rob is starting to recognize the double team. Once he becomes comfortable with that then he will be able to recognize single coverage and abuse it.

He still has a little too much panic in his game right now with the double team and it shakes his shooting confidence.

TM27
01-21-2010, 10:36 PM
his passing "out" has improved drastically over the last 10 games. He had a couple really nice looks tonight but they didnt drop. If he can make a similar jump in development this offseason (vs last offseason) he will have two or three more moves and be a monster next year.

CDC84
01-21-2010, 10:46 PM
I totally agree about Rob's better handling of the double teams. Elias too. What GU is starting to do is send cutters to the rim when opponents do that, and it's leading to easy layups.

As much as it would have been nice to have had Rob on last year's team, it's also nice to know that he's got 2 more years of eligibility after this season. He's still a work in progress.

Ezag
01-21-2010, 11:10 PM
While i agree that his passing out in double teams has improved 110%, seems like by the same token, the rest if his game has taken a step or two back.

I thought Will looked more comfortable in there and
should get more time.

alaskazagnut
01-22-2010, 12:47 AM
are in classic sophomore slumps. They have flashes of their potential but they aren't experienced enough to unify knowing what to do and have the confidence to carry it out real time, game time, on national TV. They still don't have the confidence needed to be consistently productive and they are having their minutes decreased accordingly.

Sacre needs to stop hesitating and dribbling meanwhile, letting the opponents set up their defense or simply double team him and crowding him out of his shot. He is strong enough to get his favorite spot to shoot from, get the pass and shoot in one smooth powerful movement. Be it a fade jumper, baby hook shot or a slam dunk. From that spot he should be able to hit the baby hook or go up for the slam with his eyes closed. Once he gets the confidence that he can control "his" spot, I believe he will score 20 and 10 every game. But he is still a sophomore who needs to practice "his" post moves until it is made perfect. This was just a bad game for Robert. However if he doesn't get insanely pumped up from getting face patted by Bell's junk, then nothing will. He just needs to believe in his ability and put the "brown thingy in the round thingy".

I'm more worried about Meech. A guard can't have a 56% FT ave and they must have a positive assist/TO ratio. He had ZERO assists tonight, 1 TO.

Birddog
01-22-2010, 04:22 AM
Samhan can't jump a lick but desires the ball when down low and Rob has way more talent then that guy
allnet, if that were the case then there would be no need for this discussion. Like him or not, Hamsan has a lot more talent than Sacre. This is a case where the figures (stats) don't lie. He may be "yummy" to some, but Sacre's progress has been frustrating to many fans and I suspect coaches. He could really use a session at the "Pete Newell Big Man camp" this summer coupled with some more pounding from Casey. Put me in the disappointed camp. It's esp hard to take after his really impressive start of the season. I imagine Rob is pretty bummed as well.

allnet59
01-22-2010, 05:54 AM
Birddog well said and i should have said Rob has more natural athletism but still lacks some basic moves down low compared to Samhan. Confidence and pure desire are two things you can't coach and it has to come from within. You have to feel a bit bad for Will the Thrills situation given his short minutes and the fact Rob isn't producing as well as expected. When Few pulls Will out he always looks dejected and i hope he gets a few more minutes to hone some of his skills as well. Good luck Zags

gozagswoohoo
01-22-2010, 06:05 AM
Hey, look at the bright side, he made Sportscenter's Top 10 Plays!!

Reborn
01-22-2010, 06:13 AM
allnet, if that were the case then there would be no need for this discussion. Like him or not, Hamsan has a lot more talent than Sacre. This is a case where the figures (stats) don't lie. He may be "yummy" to some, but Sacre's progress has been frustrating to many fans and I suspect coaches. He could really use a session at the "Pete Newell Big Man camp" this summer coupled with some more pounding from Casey. Put me in the disappointed camp. It's esp hard to take after his really impressive start of the season. I imagine Rob is pretty bummed as well.

Exactly my sentiments. Rob missed 4 or 5 shots that we easy shots he can make. And the thing about his fouls is that they are all "stupid" nicky nacky fouls that he doesn't NEED to make. Save your fouls to put a "hurt" on someone when they drive to the basket. Rob makes no attemp to block shots 90% of the time.

On the bright side. Rob is beinning to hit cutters for layups and that is very good.

Reborn
01-22-2010, 06:21 AM
[QUOTE=Malastein;520321Some of Harris' lanes are a direct result of the secondary post defender knowing they've to deal with big Rob. [/QUOTE]

I've got to disagree with this one. If what Malestein says is true,than why is Harris being double and tripple teamed? If Sacre played with the intensity of Harris there woud be no need for this thread. Sacre lacks FIRE inside a lot of the time. He has sometimes, and doesn't at others. Players like Harris, Matt and Steven have in every game now. That's why we are winning all these games. Not because of Robert Sacre. Sorry!!! Will has way more FIRE than Rob. And Rob wants to be a leader????????

allnet59
01-22-2010, 06:52 AM
REBORN great post! Robert played his butt off early on in the season against non conference foes who where much bigger nd more aggressive and he held his own and you would have thought he was going to have a break out year. Maybe with Harris coming into his own and being the go to guy with his ability down low Rob doesn't feel the need to shoot as much who knows. I just see a guy with way to much ability playing to soft on both ends of the floor. For whatever reason . lack of confidence, foul trouble or whatever his teammates are going to need more production either scoring, or rebounding and getting to the free throw line if they want to make a long run into the tourny. Maybe he's the kinda guy that gets to amped up at the beginning of games and should come off the bench. I know he's only going to get better over time but i hope its this season and soon! Good luck Robert!

cjm720
01-22-2010, 07:20 AM
I've notice the past few games that Sacre's little fade away little jumper from close (the one that amazed us all at MSU and the first part of the season) has a little hitch to it now. As in, there's a little pause in his motion, right before his release.


Edited to add: I don't think Sacre lack fire, he just knows his role as a score is behind Harris, Bouldin, and Gray. Unfortunately, it may take him out of the game offensively a bit, but its not a reflection of his zeal for the game. Bobby's got some fire folks, we've all seen it!!!!

Xin Loi 67
01-22-2010, 07:41 AM
A 7' player still needs to get off his feet. If he continues to stay on the deck, these atheletic 6'-8" guys will put their waistbands in his face.

On the other hand 7'-5" if played in someones face is very hard to overcome by any player. MO

gamagin
01-22-2010, 07:51 AM
he either has his head in the game or he doesn't. Moving him around like pieces in a chess match seems futile. Allnet, I agree w/you & your observations.

RS has his bright moments but they are dimming. Teammates too often do not trust him as much as they used to because he hasn't earned it, he isn't looking, he isn't moving. He has even lost the job of going for the tip to Harris.
Harris is doing double duty most of the time because Big RS is standing around. way too much.

The frustrating part of watching him is he seems to have all the tools, athleticism, hops and (most important, imo) when his confidence is there, he looks, acts, shoots & saunters around, like a pro.

The same could be said for Meech. The fact is they are, for reasons I do not know, playing with less and less confidence.

Whether that is the pressure they put on themselves, from the coaches, the competition or the bench, or all four, I do not know.

My guess, too, is many of us began the season believing both of them worthy of their starts and their p.t. and now need to dial back the expectations we had and realize they are still really, really green & greatly in need of everyone's patience while they build up more experience.

Or while others on the team step up and challenge for those positions and that p.t.

Thank god Harris is there to cover for RS and MB is there to cover for Meech. Or we'd be in deep caca.

Go TEAM Zags !

Robzagnut
01-22-2010, 07:52 AM
Just an off game for him. It happens.

He missed his shots and the guards were working the ball into Harris on the other side because:

1. Harris was successful and a beast down low

2. His German coach was in the stands and obviously he wanted to put on a show

cjm720
01-22-2010, 07:58 AM
Hey, look at the bright side, he made Sportscenter's Top 10 Plays!!

I missed this. Which play?

gozagswoohoo
01-22-2010, 08:02 AM
I missed this. Which play?

#4 on the Top 10 plays....the one where Bell yam-jobbed right over top of him. hehe (I never said it was a favorable play for Sacre).

:-)

bballbeachbum
01-22-2010, 08:04 AM
he either has his head in the game or he doesn't. Moving him around like pieces in a chess match seems futile. Allnet, I agree w/you & your observations.

RS has his bright moments but they are dimming. Teammates too often do not trust him as much as they used to because he hasn't earned it, he isn't looking, he isn't moving. He has even lost the job of going for the tip to Harris.
Harris is doing double duty most of the time because Big RS is standing around. way too much.

The frustrating part of watching him is he seems to have all the tools, athleticism, hops and (most important, imo) when his confidence is there, he looks, acts, shoots & saunters around, like a pro.

The same could be said for Meech. The fact is they are, for reasons I do not know, playing with less and less confidence.

Whether that is the pressure they put on themselves, from the coaches, the competition or the bench, or all four, I do not know.

My guess, too, is many of us began the season believing both of them worthy of their starts and their p.t. and now need to dial back the expectations we had and realize they are still really, really green & greatly in need of everyone's patience while they build up more experience.

Or while others on the team step up and challenge for those positions and that p.t.

Thank god Harris is there to cover for RS and MB is there to cover for Meech. Or we'd be in deep caca.

Go TEAM Zags !

and we'll need them both, Meech and Rob, playing with confidence to be our best in March, and they will get more opportunities clearly. what do they do with them? right now, it's not good enough, all can see, and they'd be the first to tell you I think

alaskazagnut discussed in another post their classic sophomore slumps they are going thru, with confidence issues. that seems very clear and totally agree. Confidence, you can't fake it, you can only earn it by proving you can do it, to yourself and to your teammates.

so, it's good to have options, and Few went to them last night, like Manny down the stretch for Meech, this after Meech's best game of the year vs. USD. And going to Will early in the game, who also delivered.

Time to develop/redevelop confidence is still there, but the urgency ratchets up every game. Tomorrow's performances for these two could be critical to get them going, confidence wise.

but it's good to have options. I'd bet practice is very spirited today.

bballbeachbum
01-22-2010, 08:18 AM
It has to do with Rob being out of the flow of the game too much due to his inability to stay out of foul trouble.

I am starting to believe that if Rob collects a couple of fouls in a WCC game in the first half, Few should just leave him in there. Let him learn how to deal with it. He's never going to learn to stay out of foul trouble if he's sitting all the time. It's overly protective at times. If he picks up two more quickies and has to sit with 4 fouls, so be it. It's not like the competition is Kentucky and Kansas. It's not like Gonzaga must have him to beat a team with a losing record.

that. and if Rob knows that will be the case, going into the game, then perhaps that mental shakeup in his approach may help him not collect any fouls early, you know? these types of subtle maneuvers can help get players going

hooter73
01-22-2010, 08:25 AM
I agree it is the sophmore slump and a summer camp will help big time. On the other hand I think he needs to take a lesson from Harris and just hard nose bull his way into getting a basket. That is a fire/intesity thing that Rob has visabily cooled off from. Possibly due to Harris' sucess. Not a jealous thing or whatever but just not needed for him to do it to make the team win. He has got to start getting the rebounds though.

One thing I noticed last night is that he does throw the smart foul in there still. His denial that put samhan on the deck and again against peperdine, if those dunks had have gone down, the psychology of both teams changes and the crowd too. Denying a big highlight reel dunk is something that he is either seeing and stopping or its just a good coincidence idk.

sittingon50
01-22-2010, 08:36 AM
I see the bus is circling Rob's residence. Guess that means Meech can sneak out & go to class now.

Jedster
01-22-2010, 09:04 AM
Good one sittingon 50!

I posted in the other thread "Coach G is mad" that there has been a change in the offensive priority of this team from the beginning of the year. Teams adapted to our constant effort to get the ball into Rob and have adjusted. We've adjusted too and now our #1 inside presence is Elias. He is much more mobile, athletic and has a much better developed repetoire than Rob right now. He can shoot from outside the lane, drive, or catch it inside and back down his defender. Rob is now the #4 offensive option on this team behind Elias, Matt and Steven. At the beginning of the year that wasn't the case. Rob has work to do in developing his repetoire and it will come. For those comparing him to Samhan, Samhan is a senior. He wasn't the same player as a sophomore. Rob will grow and develop those skills.

With that being said, I would like to see Rob get more rebounds. He needs to work on getting in better position and boxing out. With his size, he should be doing a much better job on the boards. IMO I don't want to see Rob fixate more on blocking shots, I'd rather see him focus on rebounding. If he is trying to block shots, that will take him out of position for rebounds and will hurt the team.

I think we tend to forget how nervous we were at the start of the year with our lack of experience and many question marks we had on this team. We did have a lot of optimism, but I would think the way this season has progressed is way outside of our normal expectations. We tend to forget that we have a number of young players (Rob included) who have never been starters before at the college level and are growing and adjusting into that role inside a complex system. It will take time and it will be ugly at times. There is a HUGE difference to coming off the bench and playing 5-10 minutes a game and starting and being expected to contribute at a high level for 25-30 minutes a game.

karloslonn
01-22-2010, 09:32 AM
i've noticed that he's just not aggressive enough. as big and strong as he is he should have way more drop step dunks and trips to the foul line. Instead, what he does 90% of the time is fades away or shoots a hook. Both of which are nice to have in your arsenal but damn, in the words of the great Bill Walton, "Throw it down big man"

bballbeachbum
01-22-2010, 10:25 AM
last night, on his first move to the hoop, it was a nice drop step that cleared his path to the rim, then instead he half-faded that chippy and missed off the glass. that can be addressed. my take is he's a little hung up on quick leapers right now, or on not being one. thing is tho, he did everything well in that first move of his last night except for the attacking of the rim part.

he's so big that once he seals with the drop step, even a quick leaper will have to go thru him for the ball as long as Rob goes strong...foul. He was doing it earlier in the year, we know he can. He has been forced to adjust his game on many levels, too, which he is doing imo, and this is another he can retool; his confidence going to the rim STRONG

Nobody is up there with you big guy when you go...Power and take it hard!!! Throw it down big man!!!!

You know we're all with you, Rob. You can do it, man.

GO TEAM ZAGS!!!

allnet59
01-22-2010, 10:28 AM
DITTO to that last post. You can DO IT robert!

Jedster
01-22-2010, 10:30 AM
last night, on his first move to the hoop, it was a nice drop step that cleared his path to the rim, then instead he half-faded that chippy and missed off the glass. that can be addressed. my take is he's a little hung up on quick leapers right now, or on not being one. thing is tho, he did everything well in that first move of his last night except for the attacking of the rim part.

he's so big that once he seals with the drop step, even a quick leaper will have to go thru him for the ball as long as Rob goes strong...foul. He was doing it earlier in the year, we know he can. He has been forced to adjust his game on many levels, too, which he is doing imo, and this is another he can retool; his confidence going to the rim STRONG

Nobody is up there with you big guy when you go...Power and take it hard!!! Throw it down big man!!!!

You know we're all with you, Rob. You can do it, man.

GO TEAM ZAGS!!!

+1

hooter73
01-22-2010, 11:17 AM
Guys with strength and size like Rob or even just size like Will have no reason not to absolutely throw down a dunk every time. Its a high percentage shot and they dont play many teams that can contest it.

titopoet
01-22-2010, 11:59 AM
The post is like QB in football. QB, no matter how talented, need an offensive line. No matter how good the post, he needs to be fed the ball when he gets position. That is not happening. Matt missed him at least four times last night. The wings and guards need to feed him.
They need to Return the favor as while he did not score, when he was doubled, he found the slashing guard. Three assists and three other times the guard ended up on the foul line. Matt as the primary playermaker only had 2 assists (one less than Sacre and Kong). He need to reward the big fella and feed him the ball.

Scotto
01-22-2010, 02:16 PM
Rob is a soph who is starting and playing about 25 minutes a game. He is bound to be inconsistant. There will be peaks and valleys. You Monday Morning coaches need to relax a bit. Go for a walk and get some fresh air.

BRAY88
01-22-2010, 03:06 PM
Rob is a soph who is starting and playing about 25 minutes a game. He is bound to be inconsistant. There will be peaks and valleys. You Monday Morning coaches need to relax a bit. Go for a walk and get some fresh air.

Haha well said..

jim77
01-23-2010, 12:27 AM
The post is like QB in football. QB, no matter how talented, need an offensive line. No matter how good the post, he needs to be fed the ball when he gets position. That is not happening. Matt missed him at least four times last night. The wings and guards need to feed him.
They need to Return the favor as while he did not score, when he was doubled, he found the slashing guard. Three assists and three other times the guard ended up on the foul line. Matt as the primary playermaker only had 2 assists (one less than Sacre and Kong). He need to reward the big fella and feed him the ball.

He's got to work harder to help his cause. He also needs to quit drawing reach-in fouls. Those are the type guards draw....Samhan getting knocked on his A$$ is the type centers draw. Rob needs to start man handling the paint ..PERIOD. He needs to put the energy in that Elias does. I agree with CDC in that the coach should let him play in the WCC with fouls. He should be having a field day with the type of attention that Elias is attracting.