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azzagfan
04-21-2007, 10:16 AM
This type of thread may have been posted in the past, but it's good for Zag discussion while there are no games being played. What is your all-time Zag starting five and why?
Here's mine:
1 - Matt Santangelo - This is the guy that elevated Zag Hoops to a new level
2 - Ryan Floyd - Walk on, small-town local guy, all heart
3 - Matt Stanford - The first run and jump guy I can remember as a Zag fan and was member of team (1994) that should've been first GU squad at the Big Dance
4 - Mark Spink - 1999 2nd round game against Stanford and Madsen and Young, that game explains why I loved this guy
5 - Cory Violette - Heart and soul of the teams he played on, loved the way he played

brasszag
04-21-2007, 10:27 AM
I'd agree with one of your choices (ignoring any post-GU career)

PG - Santangelo is The Man

SG - Frank Burgess - The greatest pure scorer ever to come through town

SF - Adam Morrison - The will to win, and the 2nd best pure scorer

PF - JP Batista - Easy money down low

C - Casey Calvary - The one man wrecking crew - backboards beware

and...

6th man - David Pendergraft

4EVERaZAG
04-21-2007, 11:37 AM
PG Stockton-argubably one of the greatest point guards of all time
SG Burgess- tremendous scorer
SF Morrison-always there when we needed a big shot
PF Violette-loved his heart
C Turiaf-No Zag played with more passion

KNIGHT22RIMROKR
04-21-2007, 10:00 PM
Calvary
Adam
Blake
Dickau
E. KNIGHT 22

MickMick
04-21-2007, 11:11 PM
Calvary - Perhaps the best Zag athelete ever (sorry Errol Knight...I loved your game too). The guy could leap out of his shoes and had tremendous hand/eye. Was up and down the court faster than all other big men. It took a 3 man rotation to keep up with that greyhound. Part of the historic Elite Eight squad that put Gonzaga on the map. If you ever wondered what Pendo would be like if he was gifted with Errol Knight type physical skills....Calvary would be the the result. My favorite Zag ever.

Morrison - I cried with him. We really had that UCLA team beat. What happened? I am still stunned. Will to win is unmatched. Captured America with his tremendous MVP showing at Maui...not only proving that the Pre Season honors were legit, but that he was also the front runner for player of the year. Led the nation in scoring from the beginning until the end...need I say more?

Frahm - The bigger the game, the better he played (Name another Zag that wasn't on that elite eight squad that you can describe that way...no melt down with Frahm). Made one huge shot after another in that captivating run.

Santangelo - So many great point guards in GU history...but this one took them to the elite eight. It took the eventual National Champs to stop that incredible run.

Batista - Never out of position...on both ends. From 5 feet in, he just didn't miss (money!). Super soft hands to recieve the pass. Great free throw shooter for a big man. Big wide body was next to impossible to move around. Loved his game.


Off the Bench - Pendergraff. He commited to become a Zag as a sophmore in high school. He never wanted to be anything other than A Zag. He bleeds Zag blue. I want my studs on the floor to look over at him waving that towel on the sidelines....knowing that he is as much of a fan as he is a teammate. And he isn't just the cheerleader. The guy brings attitude, energy, and hustle.....every night. The KNOW they picked the right school with him on their team.

cobberzag
04-22-2007, 08:14 AM
PG- Blake Stepp
SG - Dan D.
SM - Ammo
PF- Cory Violette
C - Ronny T.

I know Coach Few and staff would agree with this line up.

gamagin
04-22-2007, 08:53 AM
2. Herm Brass
3. Jean Claude Lefevre
4. Jerry Vermillion
5. Frank burgess

GU69
04-22-2007, 09:12 AM
2. Herm Brass

Herm Brass played basketball too?

It seems like any list like this has to start with Burgess and Stockon. Leaving them off is pretty short-sighted.

brasszag
04-22-2007, 09:19 AM
It seems like any list like this has to start with Burgess and Stockon. Leaving them off is pretty short-sighted.

I'll certainly agree with you on Burgess, but if we're talking college, I think Santangelo edges out Stockton at the "true" Point Guard slot. Yeah Stockton had a better pro career by far - however, going by what they did with the Gonzaga on the front of their uni, I'd take Matt any day.

gamagin
04-22-2007, 09:37 AM
Yes, Herm Brass played basketball, was captain one of those years.

I knew him well, played with his kids.

But mostly I remember the pix in the main admn hallway in which he's standing there holding a basketball. It looks more like a medicine ball.

He was also considered a star in football & baseball and, I believe, & was on the track team, too.

azzagfan
04-22-2007, 10:30 AM
My intent was that would be each person's own personal favorite Zag players, not necessarily a representation of the best Zags at each position. I do not believe Mark Spink was the best 4 man in Zag history, but he was my favorite Zag 4 man.

azzagfan
04-22-2007, 10:45 AM
For instance, Frank Burgess is surely one of the greatest Zags of all-time, but I'm 30 years old and never saw him play. So, he didn't make my list.

applezag
04-22-2007, 11:05 AM
Best team:

Dickau
Stepp
Frahm
Calvary
Ronny

Best players at positions:

PG: Dickau
SG: Frahm
SF: Morrison
PF: Turiaf
C: JP

It's hard to go by position with our guys because there have never beenany absolutes with any position. I don't know if there has ever been a Zag that played only one position on the floor--they all at least move between two spots. Especially with the posts. Often the PF/C spot is interchangable, and often it just depends on which side of the floor the ball came down.

SunDevilGolfZag
04-22-2007, 02:23 PM
Five best I've seen are Stockton, Turiaf, Morrison, Dickau, and Calvary. I watched Stockton play in college. He was obviously great at that time, but largely under the media radar. Based just on his college ability, I would pick him first over anyone who has played for the Zags since his time.

Just_An_Old_Zag
04-22-2007, 02:34 PM
PG---Dan Dickau---All American, Left Quiche U to come to GU & the Dickau song is my fav.

SG--Jim DeWeese--Shutdown Defensive Guy, also I went to school with him and lived in the same dorm for two years...I'm a homer

F- MO--Rock Star Status

F- Casey--Cinderella the slipper still fits

C- I can't decide between JP or Ronny...so disqualify me..

6th man---David P.--the rooster from brewster...him and casey define Zag ballers to me

zagco
04-22-2007, 02:45 PM
Stockton
Stepp
Burgess
Calvary
Morrison

Crap, who cares what position they played! Put any one of them at the point and let the others freestyle!

KNIGHT22RIMROKR
04-22-2007, 03:41 PM
It's been fun to read all the different opinions. This school just continues to produce great players enjoying Monstrer Careers.
I based my picks on: How far each player went in the NCAA Tournament, Career Games won/lost and Most fun to watch.
It was very difficult to leave Pendo off my list, Pendo,,, you just can't write a story like this, It's fun to watch, can't wait until his senior season.
Most Fun To Watch, It was close between Calvary and Knight,,,
Knight was never the best on the floor, but if we were choosing sides and I had the first pick, 22 every time......
A Healthy E. Knight 22! Watching him press on DFense, Blocking shots, or his high flying RIMROKR DUNKS--
THAT WAS EXCITING STUFF......
Thanks for the thread, I enjoyed it
looking forward to Final Four in 08

sittingon50
04-22-2007, 08:15 PM
I love Errol too, knight; but if he tried to get to the rim against Casey he would have been laid out.

I've missed a handful of GU games since '92. One of 'em was an exhibition against the Old Dogs in K1. The NBA was on strike & Stockton was playing. The guy I usually sat next to told me that Stockton had a breakaway & Casey caught up & put him into the wall!

Talk all you want about Ammo's competiveness but, IMHO Casey had it in Spades.

KNIGHT22RIMROKR
04-22-2007, 08:29 PM
Yes, Calvary could punish people! And Rims, Backboards..
It was fun to watch..

Zag79
04-22-2007, 09:16 PM
dickau
santangelo
morrison
ronny
calvary

roxdoc
04-22-2007, 09:55 PM
How about an all-time competitive team (never mind position). A tough team that coud compete with anybody in a dark alley!

Calvery
Spink
Pendo
Morrison
Pargo

skan72
04-22-2007, 10:00 PM
I came to a summer camp awhile back when Knight was playing, and all the guys were scrimmaging and Knight was a slayer offensively, threes, penetration, midrange, everything, you name it he did it. How come he never showed that otherwise? A mental thing? He had a role on the team? Or was scrimmaging just not the same as a game...which is obvious, but I'm still curious...?

roxdoc
04-22-2007, 10:54 PM
Knight was injured most of his senior year. In addition he was playing on a team that was a 2 man offense (Ammo/JP). In spite of that he did have his offensive moments - some real key ones. But his main use was as an outstanding defender. Its just too bad he didn't have a healthy senior year. He's been missed! LG looks like he might be able to fill that role IF he just can get healthy!

Russell Bevan
04-23-2007, 06:51 AM
PG: J Stockton
SG: R Frahm
Wing: A Morrison
PF: C Calvary
C: R Turaif

Next five:
PG: M Santangilo
SG: D Dickau
Wing: J Brown
PF: C Violett
C: JP Batista

The three guys who have to be mentioned:
Pendo
M Spink
Spradley

a13coach
04-23-2007, 07:59 AM
PG: J Stockton
SG: R Frahm
Wing: A Morrison
PF: C Calvary
C: R Turaif

Next five:
PG: M Santangilo
SG: D Dickau
Wing: J Brown
PF: C Violett
C: JP Batista

The three guys who have to be mentioned:
Pendo
M Spink
Spradley

While I agree that Brownie should be on these all-time lists, I think even he would laugh at him being put as a wing.:D

Russell Bevan
04-23-2007, 08:56 AM
While I agree that Brownie should be on these all-time lists, I think even he would laugh at him being put as a wing.:D


Coach,

I'm with you, I should have at least put him as a forward, I just had to work him in.

tu amigo,
Russell

tyra
04-23-2007, 09:52 AM
I know it was AFTER he was at Gonzaga but I have just never believed people "get" the NBA ASSIST RECORD of John S. (which is why I could not imagine him being left off the All Time GU list). He has 15,806 career assists. The next nearest is 10,334. The closest current player (Gary Payton, definitely toward the end of his career) is 8,836. What does this mean? It means it is as close to an unassailable record as there is in professional sports. This is -- if you will -- Cal Ripken like. No one will ever break this record. John S. was simply the greatest "find the open man" player ever to don a uniform. In this day and age where individual scoring is valued above all else and at the expense of all else (Note to Kobe: If you score a hundred points but your team loses, your season will end early.), John Stockton is a giant. No matter how many GU players go on to play in the NBA (and more and more will), I don't believe that any one will ever better reflect on Gonzaga, or better represent what we would like Gonzaga to be in peoples' minds. And I haven't even begun to talk about what a class act he is as a person.

Russell Bevan
04-23-2007, 11:43 AM
tyra,

You have to remember that many of the people on this board have only watched Stockton on ESPN highlights or the History Channel.

Russell

D Hark 2003
04-23-2007, 11:44 AM
1st Team
PG: Stockton; Hall of famer, top 50 greatest ever
SG: Frahm; lights out big game shooter, dont underestimate his athleticism, he will dunk on you
SF: Morrison; all time ugliest stache but lead nation in scoring
PF: Calvary; athleticism and passion are unmatched at his position, plus the tip in against florida that took team to elite 8
C: Turiaf; greatest all time afro, and best center to go thru Guard U.

Sixth Man: Errol Knight

VanZagar
04-23-2007, 02:28 PM
John Stockton
Gary Lechman
Adam Morrison
Rony Turiaf
Rich Frahm

sonuvazag
04-23-2007, 02:41 PM
Stockton
Satangelo
Dickau
Stepp

and AMMO for low post presence.

MickMick
04-23-2007, 04:37 PM
Stockton
Satangelo
Dickau
Stepp

and AMMO for low post presence.

Wow...looks like Villanova from 2 years back. Four guards and a 6' 8" scoring machine? I guess there is a reason they call it guard U.

SunDevilGolfZag
04-23-2007, 06:44 PM
Jeff Brown was the first Zag, to my knowledge, to be named to the preseason Playboy AA team (I think I still have the issue around somewhere). That at least makes him 6th man on my all-time team

loyalviking
04-23-2007, 07:15 PM
I would have to go with the following:

1) Blake Stepp -- My coach on the floor as well as WCC Player of the Year. Manage the game and drop bombs.

2) Richie Frahm -- Lights out from distance and serious hops

3) Ammo -- "obvious"

4) Casey Calvary -- A 4 that can bang, board, block shots and step out and hit the "3".

5) JP Batista -- Very, very good low post presence who averages a double-double.

Now that's a coaches dream!

gamagin
04-24-2007, 12:46 PM
I'm going to do a mid-thread trade. I don't believe this exact combo has been selected yet.

1. Stockton
2. Burgess
3. Dickau
4. Turiaf
5. Ammo

For this change, I trade in Jean Claude Lefevbre; Herm Brass and Jerry Vermillion plus two Casey Calvary and Norb Trauba trading cards. sans the gum.

TuckC
04-24-2007, 01:25 PM
TEAM WISE
PG Dickau
SG Morrison
SF Burgess
PF Calvary
C Batista

Zag79
04-26-2007, 12:05 AM
not to trounce a fun thread, but stockton IN COLLEGE if this is the way the threads going wouldnt be on the list IMO. nba wise, top 50 all time. 4 tos a game woulda had people on this board losing all their hair. ;) santangelo and dickau at 1 and 2, morrison at the 3, casey 4 and jp or ronny 5. perfect Gonzaga college career team. :D

sonuvazag
04-26-2007, 08:41 AM
Are you saying, 79, that Dickau is above the conversation?:D

Here is a statistical comparison of college careers:

Assists per Game
Stockton 5.18
Santangelo 5.10

Turnovers per Game
Santangelo 2.68
Stockton 2.77

Assist to Turnover Ratio
Santangelo 1.90
Stockton 1.87

Total Games
Santangelo 131
Stockton 107

Points per Game
Santangelo 13.7
Stockton 12.5

Minutes per Game
Santangelo 33.2
Stockton 31.5

Conclusions
Santangelo is slightly superior in most categories, but clearly there is room to include both in the debate. Because Stockton was drafted 16th overall in the 1984 draft and Santangelo was left out of the 2000 draft, one could suggest that in the eyes of unbiased scouts, Stockton "looked" like the better player even at the college level.

Stockton only played 9.6 minutes a game in his freshman year, but averaged just less than 39 minutes for his remaining three seasons. In those seasons his turnovers per game were higher but so were his minutes.

Santangelo had a superior career in terms of consistent production through four seasons. Stockton's best stats were in his senior year (20.9 points and 7.2 assists per game.) None of Santangelo's seasons compare to Stockton's senior year.

You can see in my no-forward-in-the group lineup that I have included both. My only regret was not being able to include Frahm and Burgess and Rillie and McPhee and Condill and ... . If I had to choose one between Santangelo and Stockton, I would choose Stockton because there was more upswing in his career. But you already knew that, 79, didn't you?

Sources:
John Stockton (http://basketball-reference.com/players/s/stockjo01.html)
Matt's 1999-2000 stats (http://gozags.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/archive/052500aac.html)
Matt's first three seasons (http://gozags.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/santangelo_matt00.html)


Coach Norman Dale: I've seen you guys can shoot but there's more to the game than shooting. There's fundamentals and defense.

roxdoc
04-26-2007, 10:57 AM
So many truly great players in the Gonzaga tradition. Just when you think you have 5 terrific people, then more you can't ignore come to mind! - if not there already there, sounds like the foundation for a "storied" program!

Gamagin - Norb Trauba! Holy Cow! Now you are talking my generation!

D Hark 2003
04-26-2007, 11:15 AM
Sonuvazag, very good points... to those that believe Santangelo to have had a superior collegiate career to Stockton, you might also want to consider the fact that Santangelo had far superior talent around him to work with, he had Frahm who has played in the NBA, and dont forget about the contributions of Quentin Hall, both Hall and santangelo were running the show kind of like pargo and raivio, so i think if stockton had the players around him that Santangelo did he probably would have averaged around 20 points and 12 assists his senior year.... Stockton also is very good on defense he got a ton of steals in the NBA, i dont know what his college numbers were in terms of steals, but i think its safe to say that stockton would be a better choice than Santangelo, a guy that never played in the nba, in an era when the NBA is much weaker than it was in the late 80s and early 90s when stockton dominated...

sonuvazag
04-26-2007, 11:17 AM
Gamagin - Norb Trauba! Holy Cow! Now you are talking my generation!

Care to enlighten the rest of us with stories of Norb and others?

Zag79
04-26-2007, 11:11 PM
great post sonuva... i should have expected that. ;) my only rebuttels are as follows:
santangelo played a harder schedule, and he played with better players. if he was a one man show ala stockton his numbers would have been much better. but sharing the ball with casey, richie, axel, etc can only bring your scoring punch down. i would say dickau was a better "zag college only edition" than stockton too.


Sonuvazag, very good points... to those that believe Santangelo to have had a superior collegiate career to Stockton, you might also want to consider the fact that Santangelo had far superior talent around him to work with, he had Frahm who has played in the NBA, and dont forget about the contributions of Quentin Hall, both Hall and santangelo were running the show kind of like pargo and raivio, so i think if stockton had the players around him that Santangelo did he probably would have averaged around 20 points and 12 assists his senior year.... Stockton also is very good on defense he got a ton of steals in the NBA, i dont know what his college numbers were in terms of steals, but i think its safe to say that stockton would be a better choice than Santangelo, a guy that never played in the nba, in an era when the NBA is much weaker than it was in the late 80s and early 90s when stockton dominated...

i repeat, if matt didnt have the above named players he could have scored 20+ a game as well. and my post is only is rebuttel to the original thread, about 5 starting zags in college. obviously overall a top50 all time nba'er wins. but speaking of stats, d-rs stats are as good as stockton, stepp, dickau, and santangelos. even better in many categories. ;)

roxdoc
04-27-2007, 07:15 AM
Norb Trauba was a BB star at GPrep in 1956. May have been a classmate of Gamagin who can take it from there.

sonuvazag
04-27-2007, 07:51 AM
i repeat, if matt didnt have the above named players he could have scored 20+ a game as well. and my post is only is rebuttel to the original thread, about 5 starting zags in college. obviously overall a top50 all time nba'er wins. but speaking of stats, d-rs stats are as good as stockton, stepp, dickau, and santangelos. even better in many categories. ;) From here our arguments will be circular. Matt's freshman stats are impressive, but his senior stats are not much better. Consistent or non-improving? John played against lesser competition and had lesser teammates... Santangelo took GU to it's highest ever tourney finish and he had better teammates... do better teammates make it easier or harder for a point guard to look good? Same inconclusions.

If it makes you feel any better, I will include DRav on my bench with Frahm and QHall. I'm still debating on whether to inclued Ronny, Casey, and JP. Do I need big men? Are rebounds and defense and easy baskets important? Or is it just outside shooting, passing, and 3's? :D


Norb Trauba was a BB star at GPrep in 1956. May have been a classmate of Gamagin who can take it from there.

Prep? I'm going to have to look closer in the trophy case next time I visit.

ZagNut08
04-27-2007, 08:03 AM
Santangelo
Morrison
Burgess
Turiaf
Batista

Never saw Burgess play, but with the scoring record and hearing stories of how good he was I gotta throw him on there. I realized JP and Turiaf played together while I was at GU...but I like it because JP is one of if not the best inside scorer. Turiaf offsets his weaknesses by providing hustle, blocks, and emotion on the court.

gamagin
04-27-2007, 01:37 PM
bar none. There can't even be an argument. (yeah, sure !)

the de facto best all time GU bkb team is the one that made it to the elite eight.

we haven't been there before nor since, so this has to be the team.

Look no further.


--
p.s. I have been gone a couple of days and got more feedback about my Norb Trauba throwaway sentence than my (second attempt at a) team selection or my nobel prize (just kidding!). so it goes.

I watched him at Prep and GU and he had an incredible attitude (on court, anyway) that every coach would like to have -- on the other team. He would be the other team's MVP too many nights, ruining the mo and the chemistry and the game. He was spoiled and self centered, too, and not that good. In his case, he was cursed with potential and little if any desire to work hard at it and most certainly not for the team. He was about 10 years ahead of me and I was a ballboy, had brothers who were his classmate and got just enough of a look to remember him well. From a kid's perspective, of course.

I'm sure he has some weak explanation for his behavior. I hope he had a good life. I'm sure it wasn't in sports.

Anwyay, when I was throwing out names, and trying to remember some of those who stuck out in my memory, Norb jumped out.

best regards,