PDA

View Full Version : Touchy Subject...Ref Accountability



GrizZAG
01-03-2010, 01:15 AM
Help me out folks, is there any post game accountability for refs that just are terrible or in some cases certainly appear to try to slant a game? Nothing gets me more (#*^# than seeing that from time to time. It seems coaches and programs should have follow up input that causes some review process for accountability. Maybe there is??

Any help in understanding the process would be helpful. Frankly I have almost started with the NCAA myself a time or two to complain and ask for review of a couple games in particular over the last five years or so... Educate me please.

Has anyone noticed besides myself that when a Zag bangs into a guys chest making a move it is charging, but conversely when an opposing player does the same the foul is called on the Zag defender more often that not? The balance there seems uneven, but admittedly I am one biased fan that luv my Zags.

Am I alone in my observation on the double standard thing?

Fair is good...

zagfan24
01-03-2010, 04:54 AM
I understand your sentiment, though being at the game yesterday was a very good reminder that fans on BOTH sides usually feel as if the refs are against them. You ask an Illinois fan and they missed multiple travels and hooks...I remember more vividly a blown "tipped ball" call and the follow up dunk that shouldn't have been.

The greater point is that Refereeing is an extremely difficult job, and the overwhelming majority are truly doing the best they can. The action is fast and physical, and the decisions need to be made very quickly. They are wrong on occasion, and some refs are worse than others. A select few may be biased, and all refs are human and can certainly influenced by coaches and moreso by the home crowd. Accountability should be had for those that appear to be biased, or simply very bad...and I'm sure ratings and reviews are undertaken at times.

All that said - I have tried to approach the reffing in Zag games like I do the weather in my golf game. It can be good, it can be bad, at times that wind gust can even seem unfair -- but part of the game is overcoming this and playing well regardless. Congrats to the Zag squad for doing just that.

1973Zag
01-03-2010, 05:23 AM
Griz-try my approach: If we win, the refs were good-If we lose the refs killed us. Works every time! Seriously, I love the use of video to correct Mistakes or Time questions, but as long as we use humans to referee, there will be human elements involved(crowd pressure,bias,player and coach attitude paybacks,etc,etc) Overall, I think they do o.k, as is verified on most replays. I wouldn't want the job!

JokerZag
01-03-2010, 05:42 AM
Ref's are held accountable. They have performance reviews like everyone else for which bonus's promotion's, ect. are based.

They all make mistakes and some are better than others. Correct me if I'm wrong but last nights ref's would have been from the WCC? The WCC doesn't have the $ to bring in and retain the top ref. talent. It is what it is...

As a side note...I've been waiting for this subject to be brought up and haven't seen it so here I go : Kelly threw a malicious forearm to the dome of Illini player driving the lane in the second half. Few immediately yanked him and he sat on the bench the rest of the game...where he belonged. We are very lucky because that was a flagrant if I've ever seen one, probably would have cost the game. Hope a lesson was learned.

MickMick
01-03-2010, 07:30 AM
Reading the Illinois board, they feel cheated. Some of them believe the referees had an agenda to get Tisdale out of the game.

My vantage was much different. The calls were inconsistent for both sides. The Zags got some bad calls aganst them as well.

Three that stood out for me:

1) A Zag pass that an Illini defender clearly deflected out of bounds. It should have remained with the Zags.

2) A free two points for Illinois. Was waived off by the referees because a foul occured before hand.....yet the points remained on the score board.

3) The worst flop I have seen this season. Sacre dribbling the ball and brushed up against Tisdale who in turn, fell back like he had just been hit by a semi truck. Very blatant flop that was called as an offensive foul against Sacre.

webspinnre
01-03-2010, 07:59 AM
Reading the Illinois board, they feel cheated. Some of them believe the referees had an agenda to get Tisdale out of the game.

My vantage was much different. The calls were inconsistent for both sides. The Zags got some bad calls aganst them as well.

Three that stood out for me:

1) A Zag pass that an Illini defender clearly deflected out of bounds. It should have remained with the Zags.

2) A free two points for Illinois. Was waived off by the referees because a foul occured before hand.....yet the points remained on the score board.

3) The worst flop I have seen this season. Sacre dribbling the ball and brushed up against Tisdale who in turn, fell back like he had just been hit by a semi truck. Very blatant flop that was called as an offensive foul against Sacre.

This is pretty much spot on. I felt the refs were inconsistent, and was upset about 1 and 2. 3 bothered me, but that stuff happens all the time, and I've gotten better at living with it. I don't believe this whole refs on one team's side business, but do believe that they're humans who make mistakes and sometimes allow themselves to be caught up in an emotional game.

rijman
01-03-2010, 08:10 AM
My dad went to Gonzaga on a basketball scholarship in the 50's and stayed on to help coach Hank Anderson during the Frank Burgess era. He told me many stories of the homer refs back then and phantom fouls that decided the outcomes of games. He talked of an away game that was so badly reffed against the Zags, where they lost, the Gonzaga president who made the long trip to watch the game would not meet with the other schools president after the game to shake hands and vowed the Zags would never play there again (I forgot where they played).

My dad was a die hard Zag fan until he passed and he always thought the refs had it in for the Zags. That sentiment lasted over 50 years.

As far as the ref calls this season, look at the FT attempts to date, Zags 412, opponents 275. I would be hard pressed to confirm my dads conspiracy theory with those numbers.

GrizZAG
01-03-2010, 01:03 PM
Oh yeah, I am on board with the idea of refs being human and it is a very tough job, roger that. I also agree the crowd and coaches have a role in various capacities such as fear and intimidation at times. That look the Illi coach had on the bench was priceless. I think he was looking for a loose chicken to bite the head off of. Great catch by the photogs.
These Zags draw the fouls because they hard charge the basket often, but I still am perplexed by the number of aformentioned #3 type fouls. Our guys bang into another guy it is a charge. Our guys get run into and it is a personal foul on them way disproportionately. I have kept mental track and it isn't just the Illi game, it has been many. Wazzupwiththat eh?
I will ask, would you want to be a ref? Sure as heck not I.

Overview by a Montana Griz of where the Zags are compared to where I thought they would be before it all started this season....

First a heck of a lot better by a ton that I thought they were going to be. No question, what a pleasant surprise. Frankly I was hoping for a .500 record at this point in the schedule. The unkowns turned out to be incredible. Great recruiting!!!
I am perplexed as to what exactly happened with Duke however. Clearly this team came back from that embarrasing loss with attitude and are trying to show they are the team we were thinking they were. Maybe in some strange way that was a serious wake up call.
Wake
I was at the Wake game and like many that were there we did not get to see Harris flagrant, but only a mysterious ejection that was a real bummer. I saw the replay and oh yes, it was ugly. I think with Harris that would have been a W for Zagland.
Spartans
I think that is when we realized just how much talent this team has. Wow, what a showing against a powerhouse early on. I was impressed totally in every way.
Duke
Team confidence was shaken in the big rip Duke made. Both teams looked terrible in the first quarter. I also saw a let down of effort and focus, which in this last Illi game they reloaded and executed beautifully as very tough teams do regularly.
Athleticism...
Hmmm, well Sacre is 7' tall and is lean and mean looking for sure. He gets outrebouned far too often and should be getting more blocks. I know he can improve on his smoothness and quickness with his side hook flip he makes. He should use the glass from the sides on that more often. I know, it was my best shot and very reliable.
Meach detractors...
He is the "H" in hustle on this team. He sets the pace and is very athletic indeed. Sure, if only the three or passing skills etc would be nice, but he will get there, just be patient. His D is the example the others need to watch.
Harris..
We won the lottery, face it. He is so skilled and has a mental focus that is made of steel. Wowzer indeed!
KO..
Smoooooth. He seems a bit in slow motion and what the? What shoe size does that kid have? It looks like he can post up over a 10 foot stretch at times. Interesting foot action. He is the future.
Matt...
The block of the engine. He has been reluctant to drive the basket often as I know he is capable of. He reminds me of Brandon Roy and can move like a cat when he sees the lane. Sweeet player A+ all the way. Love that guy. Nobody has a stronger drive to win games than Matt.
Gray...
Tremendous talent. When that mojo gets going, wow he is an animal. Seems to have off nites that are mysterious. Everybody does, but he is hot and cold. ?? Give him a break on the off nites, he is as talented as any player on that team athletically and they need him.
BK..
I am very excited about this man. It would be nice to get him open on the perimeter more often as he is pure shooter. He will develop into a star..watch and enjoy.
MA..
Similar but unsure of his shooting skills. He will be an ultimate defender rebounder over time. Need to see him more..
Gibbs, Poling, others....
Gibbs need to hold a passing clinic regularly. He is incredible at passing. All these other guys have the talent and will develop. Lets hope more animals evolve out of this gang..
Will...
Is it possible to improve quickness and coordination? With his size if you could get that he should be posting for 20+ a game. Raising his arms more would help.

Compared to the past teams....
Hard to compare because the competition level varies year to year. I give them a real strong chance of going very deep, perhaps deeper in the NCAA than ever. How exciting to watch this young team loaded with raw talent combined with seasoned high level guys.

What works...
Come out and lite it up right off the bat like they did with illi. Be prepared for opponent adjustments and play D like never before.

What is needed..
Free throw confidence..better timing on time outs to stop opposition momentum sooner... Omar Samhan with a bad night. :)

By the way, great forum with excellent inputs and dialog.. Given others are watching this other than us fans, I am pleased to see how classy you all are... Thx

ZagNative
01-03-2010, 01:19 PM
rijman, what a neat post!

mnzag24
01-03-2010, 01:54 PM
As far as the ref calls this season, look at the FT attempts to date, Zags 412, opponents 275. I would be hard pressed to confirm my dads conspiracy theory with those numbers.

Easy explanation...Libbey isn't calling games anymore

JeffyJeff
01-03-2010, 02:37 PM
After muttering several curses under my breath after the Illinois game about how I perceived the referees performed, I jumped on here and, as expected, saw many others were writing posts expressing the same sentiment.

Out of curiosity I then jumped onto a couple of the Illinois forums. There were several similar such threads posted from the Illini perspective. If both sides feel the referees messed up the game, I think a realistic balance has been reached.

lawprof99
01-03-2010, 02:56 PM
Odd find. I googled West Coast Conference Referees and a site came up, by the WCC, showing the refs names who had referred in WCC games, total fouls, and other interesting information. Not sure what it means, but it is interesting.

JokerZag
01-03-2010, 03:05 PM
Odd find. I googled West Coast Conference Referees and a site came up, by the WCC, showing the refs names who had referred in WCC games

Did it include home addresses? Totally kidding.

lawprof99
01-03-2010, 03:14 PM
No addresses, no picture on ref I clicked on. Makes sense.

Angelo Roncalli
01-03-2010, 03:45 PM
The three referees yesterday were Dick Cartmell, Mike Reed and Deron White.

These three are all members of the WCC referee pool; they're also members of the Pac-10 pool.

Cartmell reffed the Eastern game (t'ed up Few), Reed reffed the Davidson game and White has reffed GU games in the past.

Cartmell is from the Tri-Cities and is very highly regarded; he's reffed final four and national championship games.

SunDevilGolfZag
01-03-2010, 03:51 PM
All of the above said, I didn't have any real overall issues with the officiating in the Illinois game. Now, the call for celebrating against the Cougs against the Ducks, and Elias's ejection on an admitted flop against Wake Forest are both another matter. The other stuff (bumping, etc) is referee discretion and abuse of discretion is tough to really pinpoint.

Nevtelen
01-03-2010, 06:26 PM
I'm watching the USD game right now and WOW are the refs bad. They've missed several obvious calls both ways - just completely bungling totally clear calls. I hope it's not indicative of the quality of the west coast refs this season. Blech.

Zag79
01-03-2010, 08:34 PM
refs are always bad, just when the zags are playing you feel like its more personal. but in watching many games, i have come to the realization they just miss alot of obvious ones, and see things differently on every play. consistency doesnt exist for the most part.


Reading the Illinois board, they feel cheated. Some of them believe the referees had an agenda to get Tisdale out of the game.

My vantage was much different. The calls were inconsistent for both sides. The Zags got some bad calls aganst them as well.

Three that stood out for me:

1) A Zag pass that an Illini defender clearly deflected out of bounds. It should have remained with the Zags.

2) A free two points for Illinois. Was waived off by the referees because a foul occured before hand.....yet the points remained on the score board.

3) The worst flop I have seen this season. Sacre dribbling the ball and brushed up against Tisdale who in turn, fell back like he had just been hit by a semi truck. Very blatant flop that was called as an offensive foul against Sacre.

and bingo!!!