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soccerdud
01-02-2010, 11:21 PM
... and up until this post, i have stayed out of anything controversial, haven't posted anything negative, and have a clean feedback record of nothing but greens (though that feedback record is, admittedly, EXTREMELY limited). i understand that my word probably carries no weight with any of you, but i feel the need to post this anyway.

for starters, i LOVE the basketball knowlege and insider-ish info that is shared on this board. i love the speculation, the excitement of following the recruiting trails, the celebration of the wins and shared agony of the losses. i love, in general, the community of this board.

however, in my short year of reading this board, i have become of the opinion that there is more venom and bile spewn (and, yes, i purposely used very visceral and emotional terms) by the "positive" posters of this board than by the more negative -- though perhaps also more realistic -- posters and the out-and-out trolls combined. this is very disheartening, and (imo) really hurts the value of the board.

here are a few truisms about the more thoughtful, but perhaps less positive posts that appear on here that i hope you will consider when formulating a response:
-- in general, the overriding pain for these posters is seeing the gap between potential and reality... and most of the comments/complaints come out of a desire to reconcile these issues, or a "what-if" sort of dream scenario.

-- when a player is called out for performance on the basketball court ONLY, there is not necessarily any hidden agenda, any personal grievance, or other despicable motivation behind it. often it is simply a result of the above. (p.s. this applies to the team as a whole, as well)

-- expressing a negative opinion does not imply (much less prove) a lack of positive feeling. as an example, any serious zag fan will love meech for his tenacity, his toughness, his personality, and (of course) his heroics from last tourney. saying that one wishes that meech would get a jumpshot or not dribble into traffic so often does not cancel out those feelings, or otherwise count as high treason. many of the people who make these posts (and those who more or less silently agree with them) have complete and unconditional love for our team, and intelligent criticism is not incompatible with such (come on, you all are either parents or have some-- you know how this works).

-- remember that, with the exception of the trolls, we are almost all coming from a place of zag love.

also, the two most over-used phrases on this board are probably "enjoy the win" and "throw(ing) an 18-22 year old kid under the bus." to me, each of these phrases presents unique problems when used to dismiss a serious, thoughtful post.

for starters: "enjoy the win." guess what, whoever earned this response probably did enjoy the win. then they started thinking down the road. same as the coaches do. they win, they celebrate, then they get to work. many posters of all varieties talk about the goal of getting to the final four, but whenever someone dares to actually hold the team up to the standards that such an accomplishment would require, they get booed off the stage. once again, holding the zags up to that level requires an admission of potential-- in my opinion this speaks well of the team, not poorly of it.

yeah, the bus one. sigh... okay, there are definitely some posters who become needlessly personal about some players-- on both sides. where such badness occurs, it SHOULD be called out. however, honest evaluations of (once again) performance on the basketball court ONLY, and mentioning an alternative strategy or substitution pattern, a missing (to be developed/worked on) skill or skillset, or even a tendency that hurts the team (or just plain drives you nuts) is not a personal attack and does not deserve one in return.

lastly, maybe a conversation doesn't have value to you, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have value to anyone else, or shouldn't be taking place.


(note that no part of this post is intended to lend support for clear trolls... they deserve whatever response you feel inclined to give them.

adoptedzag
01-02-2010, 11:35 PM
cosign :)

NEC26
01-02-2010, 11:38 PM
How dare you??? Cant you just enjoy the win????:D

thespywhozaggedme
01-02-2010, 11:43 PM
Good post; rep your way.

Saxon_zag
01-02-2010, 11:48 PM
Agreed 100%. Have some more green bars my friend. I get a whole bunch of neg rep for saying I think all the minutes meech is getting would be better spent spread out a bit more to Arop and Kong. Or just silly responses of people angered at me for even thinking of saying something slightly negative about someones play wearing zag blue.

Some seem to think this board should be just full or pro-zag talk back and forth never saying anything that could even be taken as negative in anyway. We are off to a pretty dang good start here but it still isn't all Roses and Daffodils in zagland. There is always a way to make the team better and this board should be a place to speculate about that. Not go all soccer momish when someone says your favorite player isn't playing that well.

ZagsGoZags
01-03-2010, 01:00 AM
Nice job soccerdud, I wish you would post more often
and I agree with you. Since joining the board I have been a little mystified by the need of the so called positive thinkers to attack the so called negative thinkers. I don't remember who does what, or who is in who's camp or blacklist, I just read the posts but one thing I know it seems like virtually all posters are sincere zag fans. I also agree it seems less often that the so called 'negative posters' call out the so called 'positive posters.'
Maybe I am naive.

ZigZagSoCal
01-03-2010, 03:18 AM
Dead on. Also, with the exceptions of comments made by trolls, overt exaltation may render such intentions trite less we think folks read this forum through fogged glasses.

seasontixholder
01-03-2010, 05:23 AM
Generally, it's only the regular posers and trolls who get reamed. If you get it unfairly once or twice while being honest and candid, suck it up and write it off to communal board maintenance. Otherwise the place gets overrun with jerks, and makes it unreadable for everyone.

ZagHouse
01-03-2010, 06:52 AM
Yesterday, I made an observation that I thought it was odd that one of the bench players didn't appear more excited about the win and wondered if there was a correlation to his recent cut playing time. Based on the comments from some, I guess one can't speculate one this board. I love the Zags, but at the end of the game I was thinking that this didn't fit what I typically see from the bench in close games--elbows locked and players leaping to their feet when a shot is made.

Most of us come to this board to read what Bob, Reno, Reborn, Med or some of the other frequent posters have to say about the boys and how they played, or maybe hear of a potential recruit, or confirmation of an injury--but also to read honest criticism or concerns and dare I say some speculation, "Should Arop start over Meech."

Ziggy
01-03-2010, 07:02 AM
Generally, it's only the regular posers and trolls who get reamed. If you get it unfairly once or twice while being honest and candid, suck it up and write it off to communal board maintenance. Otherwise the place gets overrun with jerks, and makes it unreadable for everyone.

+1

bballguy
01-03-2010, 07:21 AM
Most of us come to this board to read what Bob, Reno, Reborn, Med or some of the other frequent posters have to say about the boys and how they played, or maybe hear of a potential recruit, or confirmation of an injury--but also to read honest criticism or concerns and dare I say some speculation, "Should Arop start over Meech."

I see that this thread does not have the usual suspects responding. What do the veterans have to say?

RenoZag
01-03-2010, 07:28 AM
Soccerdud's post is well-reasoned, fair, and represents the quality of thought MOST MBB posters display. The criticisms are constructive, reasonable, and based on extended observation.

I'm an avid college basketball fan. My enjoyment of college hoops has been enhanced by reading some of the regular posters on this forum who clearly have a better understanding of the technical aspects ( X's & O's) of the game.

Just as there are emotional highs and lows in a basketball game (yesterday!) there are similar waves on this forum. Read any of this year's game threads from start to finish and one can get a sense of that.

The contributors to these Forums are what make it a cut above most of the fan forums I've read over the years. I know a few of these men and women by their names but like most, I only know them by their screen 'handles.' There are some I will never see eye-to-eye with (as there are who would say the same about me) but I don't let them affect my enjoyment of this virtual venue that covers Zags hoops 24/7 all year round.

cbbfanatic
01-03-2010, 07:37 AM
good post.

i think part of it is due to the lack of outsiders that visit this board. i think if this site was affiliated with the boards of other schools, you would see more outsiders around here with more critical, reasonable, objective (choose one) perspectives, to where these "controversial" opinions would not be so controversial, and the dialogue would be more freely flowing.

the "troll" issue is funny, because i've seen people here labeled as trolls (myself included) when all they were doing was expressing an opinion that they had, and not exactly doing so in a "trollish" manner. if you dont think the zags are elite with top 10 talent and mark few is the best coach in the nation, you are a troll...

NYCZAG
01-03-2010, 07:39 AM
Papers-Papers please!-

baitcast
01-03-2010, 07:41 AM
:agreed: :clap: :clap:
Rob

ZagMania
01-03-2010, 07:50 AM
I posted something defending Meech's lack of composure as understandable given the situation at hand at the end of the game and some poster who disagreed immediately stated that this board is ridiculous and you can't say your opinion if it is that a player played negatively.

Those type of posts are driving me crazy. Your posts are still there aren't they? What censorship are people referring to, that someone disagreed with you? Just because this board isn't in 100% agreement that Meech should be sitting or that GJ not cheering loudly may be a concern does not mean you are being censored! Should the people that think Meech still has a valuable role to play bite their tongue? I've started several threads on this board where most people did not agree with the premise of the thread, I did not take it as a slight.

I too get annoyed when people overreact to criticism of the players but I've seen more posts on here just giving reasons why they disagree with altering the starting lineup met with some weird whining about being some sort of victim since not everyone on the board agrees with them.

ZagHouse
01-03-2010, 08:06 AM
I would only take it as a slight when I read some of the comments posted under my rep--and I see someone make a comment about my parents being embarrassed by me. I would expect that on the ESPN board but not here.

FlyZag
01-03-2010, 08:17 AM
Clear, concise, well thought out. Good post.

Hoopaholic
01-03-2010, 08:18 AM
I dont mind the discussion of how a game went, what ifs and areas of improvement people believe that a player may need.

What I get frustrated with, generally I skip reading the threads when gets to this point, is those who automatically think the basketball worlds issues would be resolved by a simple removal of a player, reduction in playing time ect without the full understanding of

1. what it takes to build a PROGRAM (sustainability)
2. what it takes to create and maintain TEAM attitude and cohesiveness
3. what it takes to get college kids to understand, EMBRACE and fulfill their roles, especially as it pertains to item #2 above.
4. what destruction would occur with a college kid if a coach suddenly goes AGAINST what they have defined in item #3


So disecting an indiviudal performance is key to moving forward and improving, but to suddenly demand an about face on the 4 key components in creating a winning team and program seems ridiculous to me and that is when I go tot he next thread as it gets tired and old and no longer informing or helpful

but then again I tend to always evaluate performance (individual and team) from a coaching perspective not simply ZAG FAN/ALUMNI perspective

Reborn
01-03-2010, 08:39 AM
soccerdud. Thank you for a great post. You're pretty darn good with them words. I wish I had that talent. You pretty much said what I wish I could have. I think I do best when I stick to basketball.....I hope to hear from you hear on the board as well. Hey. How's soccer going? I remember coaching it when my sons were like 5 and 6. It was the first sport they played. I didn't know anything about soccer really. Accept to kick it toward the other goal. But I began to teach the kids how to compete at a very early age. As they got little older and were able to get a basketball up to a hoop we then moved into that area and football too. I still like to watch a good soccer game though. Go Zags!!

soccerdud
01-03-2010, 09:18 AM
thank you all for the constructive conversation, and in many cases the kind words.

a couple of things i'd like to mention:
-- i don't think i stated this outright in my original post, but i certainly intimated it; i was never a victim of what i described above. rather it was an observation i made.

-- both the positive and negative posters (for lack of a better way to classify them) jump the gun, get personal, derail valuable and interesting discussions, etc. but when a negative poster does it, they get (fairly or not-- and please note that sometimes it IS fair) essentially crucified in the thread. when a positive poster does it, it really feels like it becomes an excuse for everyone else to pile on. this isn't a one-sided issue, just one where i feel like standards are applied unevenly, depending on disposition and tone.

@zagmania-- this thread wasn't started to address censorship, but rather personal attacks, ganging up on people who have an unpopular view, and derailing what could be an interesting and useful discussion. to be honest, though, censorship DOES occur. i've probably seen a dozen threads (and likely missed even more due to refresh timings) that, for no reason i can discern, were either locked/moved/removed. yes, it's the mod's right and responsibility to do that-- but since you brought up censorship, i wanted to point out that it can and does occur.

it also can occur due to excessive negative repping and anonymous insults through that mechanism. you'll notice you'll never see one of the "positive" posters with red rep for any amount of time, while i've noticed plenty of reasonable and fair posters voice an opinion that wasn't popular and turn instantly red.

@reborn-- again, thanks for the kind words. soccer was the first love of my life, but unfortunately i didn't play it until junior high (i was forced out of football and basketball due to size issues. i was a late bloomer). i eventually tried to walk on at GU, but no go. i ended up a 4-year intramural player. now, almost 5 years after graduation, i still play 2-3 times a week-- but i never got to play as seriously as i would have liked. it is a beautiful game.

edit: @hoopaholic-- i understand man. and when you respond to that kind of post from the perspective you listed, i'm sure it's a valuable contribution. skipping reading a post is also perfectly reasonable... but when people respond to that stuff out of the frustration you acknowledge feeling, that's when the "badness" happens.

gamagin
01-03-2010, 09:24 AM
Agreed 100%. Have some more green bars my friend. I get a whole bunch of neg rep for saying I think all the minutes meech is getting would be better spent spread out a bit more to Arop and Kong. Or just silly responses of people angered at me for even thinking of saying something slightly negative about someones play wearing zag blue.

Some seem to think this board should be just full or pro-zag talk back and forth never saying anything that could even be taken as negative in anyway. We are off to a pretty dang good start here but it still isn't all Roses and Daffodils in zagland. There is always a way to make the team better and this board should be a place to speculate about that. Not go all soccer momish when someone says your favorite player isn't playing that well.

Amazing. I'm going to try again because it seems to be the thrust of this thread: why don't people get along ? Who is "all soccer momish" and who isn't.

Or why are there only two camps fighting each other all the time ?

Anyone who cares about what seemed to have sparked this thread and past ones as well, and it seems many do, should go back and read the game thread for the Ill. game.

read the posts & the exchanges.

Make your own determination. It's all there, imo. Certainly enough to give those wondering an idea of what happened after that game that carried over to the main GUB.

Go TEAM Zags !

Zagdawg
01-03-2010, 09:26 AM
+1

Hooray4Daye&Gray
01-03-2010, 09:34 AM
agree 100% with the original poster. the only thing i don't love about this board is the mysterious 'mods' who lock and delete threads.

threads about bol kong were consistently locked even though it was a unique and fluid situation that was basically the only question mark in the offseason, and thus worthy of conversation.

and then yesterday i noticed a thread that was critical of demetri goodson was deleted altogether.

if anyone is taking this board too seriously, it's the 'mods' who feel like it's their responsibility to decide which types of free speech should be allowed and which shouldn't.

LongIslandZagFan
01-03-2010, 09:48 AM
There is always room for criticism on this board. There are some out there that don't agree... but heck Jazz has lasted this long (even going back to the scout board) ;). I agree that there are times when the pollys go a bit overboard on the neg-nancys. From my many years as being part of this community I have noticed that being negative isn't always being realistic much like being uber-positive isn't being realistic either. But by the same token, there is nothing wrong with taking someone to task if you disagree with their posts. I see nothing wrong with people asking for some proof of their claims.

Case in point... Mr. Gray has been "attacked" often lately, I use that term very loosely because they haven't been anything more than questioning his starting role. I have, in the past, pointed out several valid arguments as to why I felt they were wrong... much like I took people to task for questioning his off the court demeanor. In the end, where are the demands of his benching today? Nowhere to be seen because he was an instrumental part of a win. My point here is that there is nothing wrong with disagreement and FACTUAL discussion.

Here is my suggestions:
If you plan on posting something negative, be ready to back it up with something more than hot air and opinion... do your homework ahead of time and spell it out. That will get you more respect.
If you have issues with a negative post that follows rule 1, you had better be ready to back your comments up as well... do your homework ahead of time and spell it out. That will get you more respect.
Don't get personal, I repeat, don't ever make it personal with another poster. In the end, as the leader of the purple chickens recently stated after a devastating injury to an opposing player, it is just a game.
If you feel the need to neg-rep someone... sign it. Man up and show your face to your victim. They don't see who reps them so do the right thing and show your face or don't send the neg-rep.
Don't EVER personally attack someone verbally if you neg-rep them.Feel free to add more.

MedZag
01-03-2010, 10:03 AM
Here is my suggestions:
If you plan on posting something negative, be ready to back it up with something more than hot air and opinion... do your homework ahead of time and spell it out. That will get you more respect.
If you have issues with a negative post that follows rule 1, you had better be ready to back your comments up as well... do your homework ahead of time and spell it out. That will get you more respect.
Don't get personal, I repeat, don't ever make it personal with another poster. In the end, as the leader of the purple chickens recently stated after a devastating injury to an opposing player, it is just a game.
If you feel the need to neg-rep someone... sign it. Man up and show your face to your victim. They don't see who reps them so do the right thing and show your face or don't send the neg-rep.
Don't EVER personally attack someone verbally if you neg-rep them.Feel free to add more.

Agreed.

Example of how to not express your opinion (paraphrased from an actual post I saw):

Meech makes me want to vomit. His game is garbage. He needs to be nailed to the bench.

Example of how to express your opinion (paraphrased from an actual post I saw):

I'm worried that Meech's game is hurting the team more offensively than he helps defensively. In games against aggressive backcourts (MSU, Wisconsin, Cincinatti, Duke, Illinois) he's posted a total of 4 assists this season to 8 TOs. I think part of the reason that Sacre and Harris have had so much difficulty with the double in the post is that Meech's man can sag off so far since he's a non-threat from the perimeter, allowing the double to come before our bigs can pass. With the offense running through Matt and our bigs so often, I wonder if it would be better to have Arop in the game for some additional length and rebounding.

LongIslandZagFan
01-03-2010, 10:04 AM
Nice Job Med... great examples.

soccerdud
01-03-2010, 10:12 AM
LIZ and medzag, i agree with both of you guys completely. thanks.

ID ZAGFAN
01-03-2010, 10:17 AM
Thoughtful post!

I lurked on this board a year ago and it was so full of vitriol I stopped reading and never became a member.

This fall I came back and it didn't seem quite as bad, so I joined and became an active member.

Since, there have been some really negative posts with personal attacks on players, coaches and other posters, and I just try to ignore them.

Works fairly well. :) When is doesn't I just go to the Foo! :D

ID ZAGFAN

mgadfly
01-03-2010, 10:18 AM
The only thing worse than some of the complainers is some of the complainers about the complainers. I've long contemplated becoming a complainer about the complainers of the complainers, but have done a good job of holding back (until now). So consider this a complaint about the complainers of the complainers... ;)


Seriously though:
If people want to talk about what shirt someone wore in warm-ups, one joke about it is probably okay, but at some point the condescension isn't funny and just detracts from the overall quality of the board.

MJ777
01-03-2010, 10:23 AM
Anyone who cares about what seemed to have sparked this thread and past ones as well, and it seems many do, should go back and read the game thread for the Ill. game.

I did not read the game thread but can imagine what is on there. I do not post on the game threads anymore because when I did way back when on the Scout board I tended to let my emotions get the best of me and post stupid comments about one particular moment in time for a player or the team(referring to such moments as a bad pass, a travel, a bad shot, etc.). Now I just watch the game and (try to) vent in private. I have to ask for devine forgiveness for the things that I think and say during the game as I do not really mean them toward the beloved Zags.

I do not have much of a basis (as most fans don't) for which to criticize talented DI athletes or coaches. I was a very limited Bball player. In my youth I was good for a few rebounds, some tough D and lots of fouls, and that was just when I played with friends as I never played organized Bball.

Constructive criticism and speculation that one player might be a better option than another is fine and makes for good discussion, but personal attacks are over the line.

GO ZAGS! :)

SpudDawg
01-03-2010, 10:24 AM
Yes, good examples, MedZag, in response to a nice post from LIZF that helped frame this discussion. And thanks to soccerdud for getting this particular ball rolling.

Look, all of us on this board -- Negative Nancy, Pollyanna, Debbie Downer, whatever -- are guilty of taking ourselves too seriously at one time or another.

It's all opinion, no matter how much we think we "know" about basketball in general or specifically about playing at the highest level of D-1 college hoops like the Zags.

OK, "back in the day" I played on a couple of teams that won some city rec-league championships. Whoop-de-doo. That doesn't make me some kind of expert. Bottom line is I'm nothing more (or less) than a fan screaming at the TV just like all the other armchair quarterbacks. (OK, wrong sport but you get my meaning.)

This is NOT a criticism of anyone. Just a little perspective. It's all groovy, folks.

FuManShoes
01-03-2010, 10:40 AM
Much as I want to agree with Soccerdud on this, because I've also sensed a change in the board, I can't. I agree there's a fine line between being an unabashed Koolaid drinker and turning that into an obsessive optimism that clouds judgement and rains criticism down on anyone who would dare question Few's moves. BUT, lets be honest here: these bench Meech and GJ and Grant are selfish posts are trite. What could possibly be said on the Meech "situation" that hasn't already been said before? What does it matter if a kid doesn't cheer as loudly as his benchmates or tweets that he didn't play? We can't get into their heads. There are no facts other than their presence on the bench, so to me and apparently many others, the whole line of speculation is pointless and maybe even inappropriate because it imputes motives to folks who have no chance to respond.

When it comes from folks who have rarely posted on the board or have only done so by posing "provacative" questions or outright flames directed at players, coaches and other board members, should they be surprised when they are called out, neg repped and all that? Contribute something: a link, an honest question, an observation that doesn't require we read an 18-year-old kid's mind, a funny story, a picture or video. Do that and you will earn some trust and latitude to mention the other. I wouldn't say that's a rule but it seems like a smart way to approach becoming part of a Zags fan community or any community. This shouldn't be the glee club, but I do value my time and the diverse, mostly respectful voices here. Those with short and red-tinted track records won't get much leeway, for they are akin to a freshman backup PG who enters a game and immediatly forces up a shot :)

ZagMania
01-03-2010, 10:48 AM
Soccerdud my comments regarding censorship weren't directly related to your post at all but since this thread is about board commentary I just figured I'd throw my thoughts in here as to what some people have posted rather than derailing the topics of those threads.

As far as censorship I don't really see it too often. I've seen some threads get nuked because they contain personal attacks, but besides that I don't notice it and I check these boards too often for my own good. A lot of posts get moved, even my own, but I think this is done with the best intention to get related posts together and not have several threads on the same topic.

As far as censorship through the reputation system and anonymous insults, if people don't have the cojones to say what they think in fear of anonymous internet tough guys they probably shouldn't be on an internet forum. I've given one negative rep, which I proudly signed, to a husky fan who was being rather facetious with his argument about our relative strength of schedules.

ZagsGoZags
01-03-2010, 10:52 AM
This is a question to Long Island Fan and moderators. Some of you urge people to man up and sign their neg reps and pos reps. What is the reason for not programming reps that way, i.e. the handle of the reputation giving person is automatically posted along with the rep given? This is curiosity for me because I have never given a neg or positive rep to anybody, I don't know how. I have checked my User CP occasionally after somebody brought that up a few months ago.

Would that make disagreements more personal and possibly create conflicts that otherwise might not come to light?

mgadfly
01-03-2010, 10:56 AM
BUT, lets be honest here: these bench Meech and GJ and Grant are selfish posts are trite. What could possibly be said on the Meech "situation" that hasn't already been said before? What does it matter if

Not everyone has 1500 posts here and reads every thread. Some repetition should be expected and accepted. How many times have we discussed the same thing over and over and over again, but when it is something a lot of us disagree with, instead of either (a) not bothering to participate in that discussion or (b) participating in a respectful manner we instead opt for (c) talk down to and make fun of someone for posting a topic that we disagree with and/or have already discussed. That's not helpful at all, in my opinion.

Second, nothing on this message board really matters all that much and who are we to judge another's post as somehow not worthy, and instead of ignoring it, ridiculing the poster? If someone says PLAYER X, doesn't seem happy with his minutes, and you feel that conversation has already finished, DON'T POST in that thread. Making several comments about that thread and making it an ongoing joke, because someone dares to start a thread about something most of us don't care about, is juvenile, hurtful, and not really needed at all.

ZagMania
01-03-2010, 11:16 AM
Would that make disagreements more personal and possibly create conflicts that otherwise might not come to light?

Not a moderator but I don't think the moderators have control over programming of this forum, it is a vbulletin board. I am not sure if vbulletin built in an option for regular users to be able to see this, though it wouldn't be hard to add.

Ezag
01-03-2010, 11:21 AM
I agree with almost all thoughts on this and good thread soccerdud. I agree 100% with what you said.

Not every thread is going to be insightful and well thought out. Sometimes, emotions get the best of people and stupid things get said. Nonetheless, as already pointed out, not much of anything we say on this message board is worth anything in the grand scheme of Gonzaga basketball. We're just all backseat coaches expressing our opinions, praises and yes, sometimes, frustrations.

As negative as some people say this board at times, this board has never been as harsh as most of the major forums out there after their team loses.

soccerdud
01-03-2010, 11:22 AM
ah, you edited your post fuman-- right as i was trying to quote a bit of it for a response.

two things to note:
-- my original post wasn't a blanket defense of all negative posts. rather it was a set of thoughts i was hoping people would keep in mind when reading an opinion that disagreed with their own. particularly, in this case, addressing a few of the misconceptions that i feel some people have of negative posts and posters. it was not intended to defend flames.

speculation is, obviously, a tricky subject. where it's well thought out, supported, etc, i would hope that responses to it (whether in agreement or contention with it) would meet the same standard.

i agree with mgadfly regarding repetition-- some people miss the conversation the first time. this is one of those cases where linking to a previous thread is an excellent (and helpful!) response... and may prevent rehashing the same thing over and over again.

however, in your original post you said something that i couldn't disagree more with. you have edited it out, so i will respect that and not address it.

@zagmania, i generally agree. as i said, i've seen maybe one a month that i thought was questionable censorship. i would agree that it doesn't happen too often. i was just saying that it isn't unheard of.

i also agree about showing resilience to anonymous people who say mean things about you on teh intrawebs. however, this is a little different in that being negatively repped affects your ability to respond in kind (i.e. you can't give rep when you're red, i believe), affects people's initial impression of you (even if they have never read a single post), and can even prevent you from continuing to post, though i have no idea how much it takes to get "banned."

CaseysShatteredBackboard
01-03-2010, 11:42 AM
good post.

i think part of it is due to the lack of outsiders that visit this board. i think if this site was affiliated with the boards of other schools, you would see more outsiders around here with more critical, reasonable, objective (choose one) perspectives, to where these "controversial" opinions would not be so controversial, and the dialogue would be more freely flowing.

the "troll" issue is funny, because i've seen people here labeled as trolls (myself included) when all they were doing was expressing an opinion that they had, and not exactly doing so in a "trollish" manner. if you dont think the zags are elite with top 10 talent and mark few is the best coach in the nation, you are a troll...

This is exactly what has kept me from posting here. I've read religiously as well but never made an account because I don't know what I'd be able to discuss here. Sure, it's nice to celebrate a win together, but I post on message boards to discuss how to improve.. there are several ways our guys can improve and i dont see any problem with talking about players mistakes.

this is why i post on so many other message boards but not here. if you look around, there are boards everywhere where people talk about their weakspots on there team, but here, it's like breaking the law.

Anyways, I thought now would be a great time to join, as this issue is now being expressed. GO ZAGS!!!!

UberZagFan
01-03-2010, 12:27 PM
The only thing worse than some of the complainers is some of the complainers about the complainers. I've long contemplated becoming a complainer about the complainers of the complainers, but have done a good job of holding back (until now). So consider this a complaint about the complainers of the complainers... ;)


Uber has no disagreement with the OP, but really is with mgadfly on this. This board has more posts that essentially are nothing more than rants about other posters' ranting too much than any board around.

We really need a rating system based upon whether 1) a post is about MBB or is 2) a post about another poster b*tchin' too much or is 3) a post about how other posters who b*tch about those that b*tch too much. That would be much better than the five star system.

FWIW, you all can be Uber's bitc. . . .nevermind.

p.s. Uber thinks Meech should be coming off the bench with Arop/Kong playing; Meech subbing for Matt & Gray. . . but then again, Uber thought that before the season started.

Angelo Roncalli
01-03-2010, 12:50 PM
This is a question to Long Island Fan and moderators. Some of you urge people to man up and sign their neg reps and pos reps. What is the reason for not programming reps that way, i.e. the handle of the reputation giving person is automatically posted along with the rep given? This is curiosity for me because I have never given a neg or positive rep to anybody, I don't know how. I have checked my User CP occasionally after somebody brought that up a few months ago.

Would that make disagreements more personal and possibly create conflicts that otherwise might not come to light?

LIZF has greater technical knowledge about the software than I, but to my knowledge there is no way to change the rep options to show the person receiving rep the screen name of the person giving the negative or positive rep. Similarly, there is no way I know of to determine who has given star ratings to threads.

There have been people who have been leaving neg rep comments for people and signing other poster's names...that will earn you a ban of some duration...

GUDan07
01-03-2010, 01:08 PM
many posters of all varieties talk about the goal of getting to the final four, but whenever someone dares to actually hold the team up to the standards that such an accomplishment would require, they get booed off the stage. once again, holding the zags up to that level requires an admission of potential-- in my opinion this speaks well of the team, not poorly of it.

Well said. I totally agree with everything you said. I love how some of the people on this board that are most guilty of this are giving you props for this statement. Making honest observations about the shortcomings of this team and its players does not mean that you are any less passionate than anyone else. If the team is playing well, say it. If they're playing poorly and blowing 21 point leads, say it.

FuManShoes
01-03-2010, 01:26 PM
But I feel this example of a post was out of line...


It's gotten to the point on this board where the super zag homers who don't want to say anything critiquing anyone in a zag jersey will find the smallest things that a player did to justify his playing time. Yes meech did a nice job to get the tie up at the end but all in all he was a negative player for this team today.


It contains a personal attack on a few posters as well as a personal attack on a player. There is NO basketball value or discussion value whatsoever to it. ...

I don't see a personal attack in that example. Saying Meech was a negative player for the team may be harsh and oversimplistic, but it isn't personal. I think it could be read as, "Meech did more harm than good out there." That doesn't seem personal. The super Zag homer thing isn't really a personal attack either. It's a bit of a whine or jab at those who went out of their way to defend Meech's contrinution, but it isn't personal. I agree it doesn't have basketball value but arguably little of what's posted here, including this very interesting thread, has basketball value. It's just men and women with Zag obsessions sounding off -- sometimes being nice about it, sometimes not.


http://www.clubfuji.com/Ash/a%20InternetToughGuy.jpg

JeffyJeff
01-03-2010, 02:24 PM
I've been following this board for a long time now and am a very infrequent contributor. I appreciate the sentiment of this thread, but if you ever need a reminder of what makes this forum so great, go spend some time on unmoderated message boards... for example, the "conversation" thread for the recent Gonzaga v. Illinois (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/conversation?gameId=300020356) game on ESPN.com.

Whenever I get a wee bit frustrated by anything I see here, I go spend a few minutes reading the vitriol on a thread like that. I quickly come running home, glad for this forum and any perceived warts.

Saxon_zag
01-03-2010, 02:25 PM
Noted and respected FU. Agree that this thread does not have basketball value.

I would like more opinions on this. Defining a personal attack might help in understanding and then again might be impossible to do.

Fu sees the above diffferntly then I do and I bet we all have a slightly different point of view.

I think if a person is labeled by name or hinted at by the type of post they do is the same thing as a personal attack (be it one or many).

Is there such a thing as a "super zag homer"?

Is there really such a thing as a "a negative player"?

What is common about calling a person a D#ckweed, Sh#thead, Negative Player or a Super zag homer (or groups of people) is that none of them are based on reality, but instead an implied derogatory peronality trait of a player or a poster.


Me saying something about "super zag homers" is not a personal attack at anyone... Especially when I don't spout off any names associated with that.

I believe calling meech a "d#ckweed" would be inappropriate and you can't put that in the same boat as me calling him a negative player. Just as FU said all I meant was that he did more harm than good out their and I don't want to turn this thread into some other topic about meech so I will just leave it at that and if you want to discuss if further it could be through pm's.

Caseysshatteredbackboard makes a good point as it seems like a lot of the "regular" posters would rather just post about the positives and celebrate all day and just brush off a possibly not as "regular" or new poster even if they can bring up a solid point about a negative or something the team may be able to improve upon. The board can almost seem like there is some "cliques" at times.

bballbeachbum
01-03-2010, 02:49 PM
the idea that you can't say negative things on this board about the team, a player, or a coach without getting slammed is just not accurate to me, and as LIZF and MedZag show, is not the real issue: it's how you say it that does, in fact, matter.

I could list soooo many posters who are anything but polly, yet do not offend ever in their critiques. There are other posters who seem to get a thrill out of offending and walking that line, often...negative instigators for lack of a better term. Those two types of posters are very different to me, and has nothing to do with saying pos or neg things about the team, a player, a coach or another poster.

Is that who we are defending here? The negative instigator poster? I hope not, because I would disagree then with this thread's intent. Otherwise, let's stick to the golden rule, I agree with you JeffyJeff, and gamagin's invitation to read yesterday's game thread still stands; it's informative.

ZagDaddy
01-03-2010, 03:16 PM
I've been around this board since fairly early in its Scout days and I read and/or participate in other boards ranging from sports and politics to things as odd as diet and nutrition. What I observed here is not really very different from what I've seen at all the others.

It seems to me that message boards serve multiple functions but I've noticed 3 core functions: 1.Cheering which I suspect is driven by posters wanting the camaraderie of a group. 2.Analysis where folks like to pick apart events within the topic for improvement and 3.Steam Blowing. There's probably others as well but these seem to show up everywhere. (If someone needs an idea for a Master's thesis, message board psychology and group behavior might be interesting.)

In my opinion, they're all legitimate and serve their respective purpose but they always seem to have trouble coexisting on boards. Personally, even the steam blowing posters don't bug me. If typing anonymous posts on a message board helps a guy blow off steam after a frustrating game, it's okay with me. Beats a lot of other options.

Perhaps message boards are not designed correctly? Maybe every board (like Zag Men's B'ball) should be broken into different boards--one for those who just want to cheer, one for those who want to analyze and one for those who want to holler. Then folks could get what they look for from a board and they never have to see what they don't like from a board.

Maybe that's just silly talk but I'm not going to care if anyone wants to say I'm one dumb *&%. I'm too old to get my feelings hurt by anonymous posts on a message board.

soccerdud
01-03-2010, 03:46 PM
Is that who we are defending here? The negative instigator poster? I hope not, because I would disagree then with this thread's intent.

i tried very hard to make the thread's intent clear in my initial post, and i have attempted to clarify since. if you are not sure about the answers to those questions, i would suggest re-reading my previous posts. your call on whether it's worth that, though.

outside of responding to the censorship issue (which i should have left alone-- it is extremely rare, usually extremely minor, and entirely outside of my original purpose-- though i understand why zagmania brought it up), i have tried to stay on topic with my posts. i am now seeing counter-arguments or attempted counter-arguments that state:
-- the other side does it, too (yes, i know. i stated as much)
-- this board is still head-and-heels above other boards (yes, i know. i stated as much)

however, to me, neither of these change the initial issue i raised-- essentially that well-written, thought out, and reasonable but critical posts are often met with disproportionately vitriolic responses. i hoped that my initial post would give some posters food for thought before responding in that manner.

the above is not intended to imply that the positive camp does not have good responses and good posters, just that it does happen and that being in that camp has often allowed people to get away unchallenged with bad behavior that the other side would be reamed for.

nor is it intended to imply that this does not happen on the other side, but in my experience the board does a much better job of self-policing the over-reactions of the "negative nancies" than the "pollyannas".

personally, i think the best takeaway from this thread is the list posted originally by LIZF:



If you plan on posting something negative, be ready to back it up with something more than hot air and opinion... do your homework ahead of time and spell it out. That will get you more respect.
If you have issues with a negative post that follows rule 1, you had better be ready to back your comments up as well... do your homework ahead of time and spell it out. That will get you more respect.
Don't get personal, I repeat, don't ever make it personal with another poster. In the end, as the leader of the purple chickens recently stated after a devastating injury to an opposing player, it is just a game.
If you feel the need to neg-rep someone... sign it. Man up and show your face to your victim. They don't see who reps them so do the right thing and show your face or don't send the neg-rep.
Don't EVER personally attack someone verbally if you neg-rep them.

bballbeachbum
01-03-2010, 04:01 PM
i tried very hard to make the thread's intent clear in my initial post, and i have attempted to clarify since. if you are not sure about the answers to those questions, i would suggest re-reading my previous posts. your call on whether it's worth that, though.:

You made your intent clear soccerdud. I have read your posts and every post on this thread today, like most other posters I would think, and some posts more than once.

23dpg
01-03-2010, 04:29 PM
My view on posting something has always been; write about someone the way you would talk to/about them if they were standing next to you.

Would you call someone garbage? an idiot? worthless? if you had to do it face to face?

Look, I lean toward the "pro-Zag no matter what happens" crowd. I do however roll my eyes when I read some of the over-the-top comments about the team or recruits. But I find more harm in the rude and offensive side of the debate. Player X is not garbage, he may just not be good enough to be playing in your mind. You may be right but Coach Few respectfully disagrees.

ID ZAGFAN
01-03-2010, 04:37 PM
My view on posting something has always been; write about someone the way you would talk to/about them if they were standing next to you.

Would you call someone garbage? an idiot? worthless? if you had to do it face to face?

Look, I lean toward the "pro-Zag no matter what happens" crowd. I do however roll my eyes when I read some of the over-the-top comments about the team or recruits. But I find more harm in the rude and offensive side of the debate. Player X is not garbage, he may just not be good enough to be playing in your mind. You may be right but Coach Few respectfully disagrees.
+1
:)

ID ZAGFAN

Saxon_zag
01-03-2010, 06:03 PM
I always thought it was funny the whole "Would you do this if your grandmother was watching" type of thing. Although I totally get what you're saying it just sorta makes me laugh. There is a lot of things i wouldn't do with my grandmother watching but i do anyway. lol

CaseysShatteredBackboard
01-03-2010, 07:09 PM
I've been around this board since fairly early in its Scout days and I read and/or participate in other boards ranging from sports and politics to things as odd as diet and nutrition. What I observed here is not really very different from what I've seen at all the others.

It seems to me that message boards serve multiple functions but I've noticed 3 core functions: 1.Cheering which I suspect is driven by posters wanting the camaraderie of a group. 2.Analysis where folks like to pick apart events within the topic for improvement and 3.Steam Blowing. There's probably others as well but these seem to show up everywhere. (If someone needs an idea for a Master's thesis, message board psychology and group behavior might be interesting.)

In my opinion, they're all legitimate and serve their respective purpose but they always seem to have trouble coexisting on boards. Personally, even the steam blowing posters don't bug me. If typing anonymous posts on a message board helps a guy blow off steam after a frustrating game, it's okay with me. Beats a lot of other options.

Perhaps message boards are not designed correctly? Maybe every board (like Zag Men's B'ball) should be broken into different boards--one for those who just want to cheer, one for those who want to analyze and one for those who want to holler. Then folks could get what they look for from a board and they never have to see what they don't like from a board.

Maybe that's just silly talk but I'm not going to care if anyone wants to say I'm one dumb *&%. I'm too old to get my feelings hurt by anonymous posts on a message board.


Oh ZagDaddy, you nailed it perfectly. We all need to take a step back and look at this place for what it truly is. A message board.. A Place for people to discuss Zag ups and downs, great times, bad times, amazing play, struggling play, OPINIONS, and anything else, as long as it's Zag related. A place to blow off steam after a loss, or a bonehead play, and a place to celebrate and congradulate.

I think some take it too personally. When someone says something negative about a player, I say discuss it, instead of attacking the poster. If you agree, agree. if you disagree, give your reasons why. Unless it's mean spirited or just plain mean, there is NO problem with it.

I think this place is a TAD bit over patroled by the mods, NO offense.. And a lot of people come to the defense of the players and coaches too much. Again, MESSAGE BOARD. a place to blow off steam and discuss!

I have had several times this season with Meech, and Sacre.. I was screaming at Meech a few times against Illinois, but when he got that jump ball at the end of the overtime, I was screaming "NICE PLAY MEECH, GREAT HUSTLE." That was one of the best wins we've had... I had tears in my eyes at the end I was so proud of them, and so proud to be a Zags fan. But after the game was over, I was wanting to discuss some things I saw Meech doing that I didn't agree with. I don't think there is anything wrong with that, and I thought that was why we had these boards! Anyways, sorry for my rant, but I couldn't stop typing. GO ZAGS!!!

CaseysShatteredBackboard
01-03-2010, 07:12 PM
My view on posting something has always been; write about someone the way you would talk to/about them if they were standing next to you.

Would you call someone garbage? an idiot? worthless? if you had to do it face to face?

Look, I lean toward the "pro-Zag no matter what happens" crowd. I do however roll my eyes when I read some of the over-the-top comments about the team or recruits. But I find more harm in the rude and offensive side of the debate. Player X is not garbage, he may just not be good enough to be playing in your mind. You may be right but Coach Few respectfully disagrees.

Again, this is about blowing off steam sometimes IMO. I don't agree with calling any players garbage or worthless, BUT just discussing some mistakes they make, or make on a regular basis is ok in my opinion.. I wouldn't say anything negative about any players games to their face, but why can't I discuss it on a message board as long as I'm being respectful? This is what this place is for.

LongIslandZagFan
01-03-2010, 07:57 PM
This is a question to Long Island Fan and moderators. Some of you urge people to man up and sign their neg reps and pos reps. What is the reason for not programming reps that way, i.e. the handle of the reputation giving person is automatically posted along with the rep given? This is curiosity for me because I have never given a neg or positive rep to anybody, I don't know how. I have checked my User CP occasionally after somebody brought that up a few months ago.

Would that make disagreements more personal and possibly create conflicts that otherwise might not come to light?

To the best of my knowledge, it is not possible for the average user to see it with the system we use. Even if it were, it is something that I believe the superadmins at SR would have to change. I'll research it, because I think it is a good suggestion.

krozman
01-03-2010, 08:20 PM
Maybe every board (like Zag Men's B'ball) should be broken into different boards--one for those who just want to cheer, one for those who want to analyze and one for those who want to holler. Then folks could get what they look for from a board and they never have to see what they don't like from a board.
.

That would fail miserably even if attempted. Besides, I don't come here to get a pat on the back for something I already know. I come to challange and be challanged about opinions and ideas. You are right about one thing, though, this discussion has happened 100 times before, and it will happen 100 more times in the future. The trolls, the mothers who cry when anything negative is said, and the others, all must co exist. We complain, but admit it, we wouldn't have it any other way.

Zag79
01-03-2010, 09:23 PM
If you plan on posting something negative, be ready to back it up with something more than hot air and opinion... do your homework ahead of time and spell it out. That will get you more respect.

If you have issues with a negative post that follows rule 1, you had better be ready to back your comments up as well... do your homework ahead of time and spell it out. That will get you more respect.

Don't get personal, I repeat, don't ever make it personal with another poster. In the end, as the leader of the purple chickens recently stated after a devastating injury to an opposing player, it is just a game.

If you feel the need to neg-rep someone... sign it. Man up and show your face to your victim. They don't see who reps them so do the right thing and show your face or don't send the neg-rep.

Don't EVER personally attack someone verbally if you neg-rep them.

LOVE IT! check your stats and numbers before spouting off your biased, unfactual negativity toward a player based more off of his looks, playing style, etc than truth. great post LIZF.

ZagDaddy
01-04-2010, 04:22 AM
That would fail miserably even if attempted. Besides, I don't come here to get a pat on the back for something I already know. I come to challange and be challanged about opinions and ideas.

Yes indeedly do! And that's my point. I think it's important to accept all the functions message boards serve. Just wanted people to think about what a message board is all about and how awful it would if it was one dimensional. :)

bartruff1
01-04-2010, 04:51 AM
I come here for the information and quick links....to think that anyone in here knows more about the team or how to win than Few is difficult to believe. I assume he puts those players in the game and at the times when they can contribute to a win . His record speaks for it's self.

CaseysShatteredBackboard
01-04-2010, 05:53 AM
I come here for the information and quick links....to think that anyone in here knows more about the team or how to win than Few is difficult to believe. I assume he puts those players in the game and at the times when they can contribute to a win . His record speaks for it's self.

Ohh so we can't discuss the struggles at all? OK I get it....

I think we all trust Few, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss things.

seasontixholder
01-04-2010, 05:56 AM
Watching the Zags (and the opposing teams) is for pleasure and diversion, not constant nagging and obsession. For that, go to Dawgman. This is an upscale classy place.

bartruff1
01-04-2010, 06:49 AM
Ohh so we can't discuss the struggles at all? OK I get it....

I think we all trust Few, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss things.....not at all....discuss away...I would like to add that IMHO you should not say things you would not say to a person's face...I don't buy analogies as conclusive.

FuManShoes
01-04-2010, 06:59 AM
Ohh so we can't discuss the struggles at all? OK I get it....

I think we all trust Few, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss things.

This is the problem a lot of us have here: the ease and willfulness with which things are misinterpreted. I have no idea how you read Bartruff's post as a call to cease discussion of X's and O's. I read it as a simple satement that Bartruff doesn't necssarily look for that and a pretty logical statement that the highly paid, 80-percent victorious coach probably knows what he is doing. To those who keep insisting there's some gag order here, please stop creating red herrings and playing the martyr card.

From my perspective - and maybe it's what Bartruff was alluding to - the burden of proof lies with critics of the Zags, not with Few and the gang. Their accomplishments speak for themselves. If one thinks the Zags should be doing something different, you'll have to do some convincing and back it up if you hope to earn green dots or whatever else you're looking for (a pat on the back?). That only seems reasonable since in the eyes of most, Few & Co. largely get it right and whatever flaws may exist are usually self evident and likely have been discussed (which a search of the message board would reveal).

Hoopaholic
01-04-2010, 08:06 AM
I suspect we are seeing a confliction of "age" in regards to approach on this board. I suspect the "older" generation tend to be a bit more reserved in negative posting, while the younger generation tend to be comfortable with detailed explanation of their positions no matter who it may offend...but that is my experienced "guess"



What I dont understand is why some will CONSTANTLY bemoan bad plays by a single player but NEVER speak about bad plays of other players ..to me that makes me raise an eyebrow as to motive behind the flaws being pointed out....it is those posters who I tend to breeze over their posts because I am uncertain as to their motive

I do LOVE being challenged on my positions, my observations and my perspectives and that is one my primary reasons for being on this board....by the negative, personal attacks that are constant, singled toward a specific player after every game gets old for me

soccerdud
01-04-2010, 08:44 AM
LOVE IT! check your stats and numbers before spouting off your biased, unfactual negativity toward a player based more off of his looks, playing style, etc than truth. great post LIZF.

sigh. 2500 reads, and all of them no doubt concluding that the other guy needs to do something different.

i know, i know. it's an internet messaging board. i give. continue on with your regularly scheduled programming.

gamagin
01-04-2010, 09:50 AM
I suspect we are seeing a confliction of "age" in regards to approach on this board. I suspect the "older" generation tend to be a bit more reserved in negative posting, while the younger generation tend to be comfortable with detailed explanation of their positions no matter who it may offend...but that is my experienced "guess"

What I dont understand is why some will CONSTANTLY bemoan bad plays by a single player but NEVER speak about bad plays of other players ..to me that makes me raise an eyebrow as to motive behind the flaws being pointed out....it is those posters who I tend to breeze over their posts because I am uncertain as to their motive

I do LOVE being challenged on my positions, my observations and my perspectives and that is one my primary reasons for being on this board....by the negative, personal attacks that are constant, singled toward a specific player after every game gets old for me

It really does seem to be generational, among other things.

Too many posters come on with little background (translation: haven't read back far enough to get the flavor of things, or to even really understand what's acceptable, tolerable, overworked, and what's not) and just post as if their words were not just fresh, but divinely inspired.

Another poster pushes back and suddenly, (s)he's being picked on. I've not seen this kind of pushback happen (except flames) without a reason. Ask for the reason. I'm betting you will get one quickly.

But, like Jim Rome & LIZF, and the rules on the sticky at the top of the GUB, say, If you have a take, and it sucks, or someone else thinks it sucks, is wrong, personal etc etc., be ready to explain yourself & deal with the consequences. You gotta eat your own dog food if you expect others to partake.

But first, I think those of you who think they are reading the GUB are not really reading the GUB for the big picture it paints and has painted for several years.

I think too many are writing what comes to mind without much thought as to what has been written in the GUB before.

Some, a very few, seem to think every utterance is a thread starter when in fact, it may not even be a complete sentence, much less a complete thought.

So how about we find some common ground here ? Newbies need to do some homework and old farts like me need to perhaps be a little more tolerant. Keep in mind there are limits.

But think about this if you think you are being picked on, maybe you need to work a little harder, or a lot harder, like the Zags, and everyone else, to improve your (GUB) game so we can all make it back to the dance together.

Go TEAM Zags !

cjm720
01-04-2010, 09:53 AM
What could possibly be said on the Meech "situation" that hasn't already been said before?

How about altering game plans to draw out Meech's strengths? Few and Co. has really worked on passing the ball more and moving without the ball to throw off defenders. I like how Meech has passed up the J to drive and draw defenders. I like how Sacre has played stronger and more definitive with the ball. I like how coach has shortened the rotation, allowing the team to gel as a unit better. All have helped Meech and the team. Meech's rebounding and assists were phenomenal against Illinois. He had a few bone head turnovers but so did all the starters.

I gave this thread a one star rating, because I don't like people telling me how I should live my life. I love the GUB for all the recruiting info, analyses, and personal opinions. I obviously have my own opinions and I truly look forward to different viewpoints (we're all different, right). I happen to have an ability to be quite impartial and use this trait to debate my beloved Zags. I get the sense I'm in the minority regarding Meech, but that's cool.

Go Zags!!!

ZagsGoZags
01-04-2010, 10:06 AM
gamagin might be right, there might be a generational nature to the 'negative' posters and the 'glee club' posters. If so, however, I am one of those exceptions. I am over 60 and I consistently recoil when anybody tries to rule other posts as 'out of bounds' or 'haters' or not supportive of our 19 yr old players who might read this. I prefer to just hear individuals and their reasoning. I have seen very few flames or torches on this board, and I would have to be categorized with the "young'uns" who do not hesitate to disagree or dissent from automatic praise for whatever the coaches or players do. I like to hear it all, and think all the rep'ing is like gossip, so I don't do it. (I will confess I felt bad a few years ago when my squares were all red, though).

UberZagFan
01-04-2010, 12:45 PM
Some, a very few, seem to think every utterance is a thread starter when in fact, it may not even be a complete sentence, much less a complete thought.

Word.

gamagin
01-04-2010, 01:15 PM
sigh. 2500 reads, and all of them no doubt concluding that the other guy needs to do something different.

i know, i know. it's an internet messaging board. i give. continue on with your regularly scheduled programming.

What I read is he was repeating & lauding and cheering LIZF's post. I distinctly remember you lauding LIZF's post & content, too. ie: you seem to be in agreement.

So why the sigh and lamentations?

soccerdud
01-04-2010, 02:12 PM
What I read is he was repeating & lauding and cheering LIZF's post. I distinctly remember you lauding LIZF's post & content, too. ie: you seem to be in agreement.

So why the sigh and lamentations?

yes, i absolutely agreed with LIZF's post-- when taken as a whole and applied to everyone. i felt that the response that i quoted specifically pulled one part out, and applied it (rather angrily, it seemed) to a very specific group. if it had been accompanied by "and i will try to abide by #2," or something (or some other indication that we're all in this together, or that the issue at hand isn't a one-sided one), i would have cheered the sentiment. unfortunately, this seemed to be the most common response-- grab a quote about one thing someone else does that bugs you and throw it at them. no introspection whatsoever, and very little attempt to bring the two "sides" closer together. there was certainly no acknowledgement of personal responsibility for a part of the divide from anyone on either side.

as i noted, it always seems to be exclusively the "other guy" who ought to be the one doing something different. i came to the realization that even as much as this board and community may be more mature and functional than most, it's still a message board and some things just aren't going to change. thus, the sigh and lamentation.

FuManShoes
01-04-2010, 02:31 PM
Damn, I'm still confused about who we're talking about, or what the offense is we should be looking in the mirror and apologizing for.

If you're saying board veterans and homers are too tough on newbies whose first or only posts are digs at players or what I would call a "lame" question posed only to solicit a heated reaction, then no, I will not apologize for that. I believe your suggestion is that our reaction to those posters is routinely worse than the posts themselves. I don't believe that. They vent, we vent. Some do it respectfully, some don't. I don't see a pattern.

If you're talking about the inevitable posts that criticize team critics for posting respectful and seemingly well-thought out criticism, observations and hypothetical lineup changes, then yes I can agree we may be too hard on some of those folks, too often falling back on the "just enjoy the win" card. But I believe it's a reasonable reaction given that this is primarily a fan board and not an objective analysts' board. It makes sense that the majority here are VERY excited and emotional after a win and are annoyed when the first thing someone does is come on and critique the players and strategy after a hard-fought win and expect that we should be bowled over by their insight. That's like walking in front of a train and complaining when it runs you over.

But if this thread has revealed anything, it's that there is a wide variety of opinion about the team and about message board etiquette and objectives. The person who makes peace on the internet shall get the keys to the kingdom, or the Second Life version thereof.

sonuvazag
01-04-2010, 02:46 PM
A: Meech sucks.
B: You suck.
A: Waaa! I want my right to post critical comments back.

Sometimes I find my responses to player/coach criticism, though meant to increase dialogue, are interpreted by the originating critics as a gag order or something. Must be because of my awesome rep because I thought I was merely disagreeing with their negative opinion instead of telling someone not to post.

If anything is lacking on this board, it is a sense of humor about itself.

Soccerdud, you came on here and talked about how one group of posters frustrates you worse than another, and then get upset at Zag 79 when he does the same thing. This is irony. This is your chance to laugh now.

Ezag
01-04-2010, 03:10 PM
We're good when we win, we suck when we don't!