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Reborn
01-02-2010, 02:42 PM
This dialogue needs to continue I believe because, imo Meech really hurt the Zags again today. He played 30+ min and Arop 4. I just dont get it. Meech can't shoot, made horrible passes, and wasn't guarding his man during the Illinois comeback. And his man continues to sag in the middle on D. There's not a lot more to say beause it's all been said. Oh accept one point. I Ihought that him throwing up that last shot in regulation play was just HORRIBE and ugly.

And don't tell me about his D again. His man, McCaney killed him for 20 poins, most came in the comeback. Meech did do a good job on him at the end. But he was way to short for Meech to guard.

I am pretty frustrate about this. I thinki Arop deserves more. He's been the 9th and 10th man off the bench lately. What does Fewhave against Manny? Manny is also the most unselfish guy on the team, one of the best rebounders, and the loudest and most supportive guy on the bench. Oh well. I just needed to vent. Other than this, I felt Few coached a good game. I feel if Few continues to ignor Manny he's going to lose him. The guy is just too good to only play 4 minutes.

BobZag
01-02-2010, 02:47 PM
Zag vs Zag. Cool.

Have at it.

alaskazagnut
01-02-2010, 02:50 PM
limit his minutes to less than 30 if he is not producing what he should. Kelly or Manny should be first off the bench. Its not punishment for Meech but what is best for the team until he gets more consistent.

The "intangibles" and "fire" can only go so far. He did a fair job on defense today against Paul and Mcamey. But no steals, 3 TO's 4 assists still isn't good enough. Unfortunately Meech is not even 6 ft tall. The shortest guy he guarded was 6'2". However, it is getting to the point where speed and intensity are less important as shooting 40% and making 70% FTs. If he is more liability than asset, he should sit more. I am not opposed to starting Arop over Meech. Why not? This is not bad mouthing Meech or complaining after the win. It is stating my opinion that has been similar for most of the year.

krozman
01-02-2010, 03:32 PM
I agree that he's a liability more than an asset, but unfortunately nobody can possibly replace him and be as ready come March. He does add the ability to move fast, but his halfcourt offensive ball handling brings me pain.

vandalzag
01-02-2010, 03:32 PM
The one thing that the Meech doubters don't consider is that Mark Few likes him on the court to keep the tempo up and wear opponents down. Listen to the experts who say "Trust me, you do not want to run with this team".

He needs practice shots, he also got a couple bad calls against him in this game. The ball deflection out of bounds. Don't forget that held ball where we obtained possesion. If he did not do that, we probably would have lost that game.

Everyone on the team made key play and key mistakes. Even Harris made one when he went for a steal and that lead to a basket +1. Meech is getting all the attention here because the other 4 had great games and he did not.

He does get the ball up the court 99.9% of the time. Some seem to forget that last year we did not do that under pressure.

Meech needs to work on his shot and to continue getting experience. That is why Mark Few has him in there. Are you a better coach then Few?

The held ball was good, but Kong played as much a part as Goodson. Actually Goodson's best play of the game was getting the ball out of his hand and over to Gray before the team could foul him and put him on the line with a 1 pt lead at the end of regulation.

That being said he is playing simply because the alternative is that Bouldin would have to do too much to make this team functional. Goodson does not see the floor nor does he have the change of pace needed to play PG. The only way he is effective is if he is going full speed, and that does not work for a full game.
If you look at his trips to the line today(especially the last foul) he was saved by the refs, since he was completely out of control on all drives to the goal. Right now his game is best suited for spurt play. When he plays for long periods he puts too much stress on the offense.
There is no way a division 1 player should play 30 minutes and not score a point. When he is in the game the offense amounts to him crossing mid court with the ball, handing it to Bouldin or Gray and then running to the corner.
If Few had an alternative, somebody else would be getting his minutes. But he does not, especially against a team that is as physical on the perimeter as Illinois, there was no way Bouldin could have handled all of the PG duties and scored today.

Ezag
01-02-2010, 03:34 PM
I think this is a valid point. Bouldin and Gray can handle the ball. They can run the ball. Arop brings another scorer and damn good rebounder. As good as Sacre played today, he only got 3 rebounds. And we got killed on the boards during the Illinois run.

Meech has limited court vision, limited offense and limited assists for a point guard but he sure can run fast.

Bocco
01-02-2010, 03:44 PM
Here we go again, Zags win, we are now 11-3, Meech has 4 assists, 3 turnovers in today's game, pushed the pace of the game, and here comes another tar and feather Meech thread because he's not scoring.

If Arop, G.J. ..... or anyone else for that matter .... was starting instead of Meech does anyone really think we would have more wins than we have now? Has anyone else shown that they have his ability to push the ball into offensive end of the court as well as Meech?

JPtheBeasta
01-02-2010, 03:50 PM
With his speed, if Meech had a 3-point shot that you had to respect as a defender, he would be SCARY good.

alaskazagnut
01-02-2010, 03:56 PM
No one here is claiming to be better than Few. The game flow and defensive pressure that Meech provides is extremely valuable and it is that alone that has put him over the top for the starting position. But if he gets any worse with his shooting and decision making, he is a liability, even if he runs and guns better than anybody. I would bet money that Few, Ray and Tommy have has similar discussions regarding Meech and his lack of statistical productivity.

ZagNative
01-02-2010, 04:01 PM
After a game, this board is depressing, win or lose. What has happened to this place? It's just grim. Thanks for that, Reborn.

75Zag
01-02-2010, 04:20 PM
Congratulations to the Bulldogs. Parts were fantastic and parts were ugly, but a signature win for the NCAA selection committee to review. We wanted OK and IL victories and we got them.

WCC is looking pretty weak at the moment. As much as I like my 2nd team Portland, they look beatable and so does the rest of the WCC. I would not be surprised by a sweep of the WCC going into the tournament.

And the Phil Knight - Nike (formerly known as Oregon) team just beat the Fuskies, which adds a bit of spice to the stew.

Go Bulldogs! Get Bigger!

PS - Meech had 3 boards and 4 assists. In a 2 point overtime win, he is as responsible for the victory as anybody.

ZagLawGrad
01-02-2010, 04:26 PM
11-3. Current lineup looks pretty good to me.

ID ZAGFAN
01-02-2010, 04:31 PM
+1 :p

ID ZAGFAN

jim77
01-02-2010, 04:34 PM
In case you didn't see the boxscore...Matty had 5 To's. He also had a bunch of near misses. Meech makes Matty better cause it gives Matty a break. Did you see the Illini run out of steam? Some of our guys did too. Know why? Because Meech has them in a track meet half the time. Arop is NOT a point guard. Yes, Manny should get minutes..but NOT at the point. Did Meech get out of control at times? Yes. Don't forget JP was the point last year so Demetri really doesn't have that much experience under his belt. At times Coach Few does bring him out and replace him for a spell. Next year Matty is gone, whoose the point guard then if you don't develop Meech? Let the fella keep doing his thing.....he's like watching a daredevil....always operating at the edge of the envelope :). I for one appreciate his bust a$$ basketball style...I'll say this for the one hundreth time...watch how much we get pressed when he's in the game???? If you've ever been in a game against a guy that wants to run the heck out of you you'll understand just how much it affects the game.....

This team blew a 21 point lead...got down by 8...with 19000 people screaming at them...yet they clawed their way to victory! I'm pretty stoked with their performance...KEEP PASSING! KEEP MOVING! GO ZAGS.

Rangerzag
01-02-2010, 04:55 PM
Here we go again, Zags win, we are now 11-3, Meech has 4 assists, 3 turnovers in today's game, pushed the pace of the game, and here comes another tar and feather Meech thread because he's not scoring.

If Arop, G.J. ..... or anyone else for that matter .... was starting instead of Meech does anyone really think we would have more wins than we have now? Has anyone else shown that they have his ability to push the ball into offensive end of the court as well as Meech?


If someone else started, someone else would be getting tar and feathered.

Horned Frog
01-02-2010, 05:18 PM
In case you didn't see the boxscore...Matty had 5 To's. He also had a bunch of near misses. Meech makes Matty better cause it gives Matty a break. Did you see the Illini run out of steam? Some of our guys did too. Know why? Because Meech has them in a track meet half the time. Arop is NOT a point guard. Yes, Manny should get minutes..but NOT at the point. Did Meech get out of control at times? Yes. Don't forget JP was the point last year so Demetri really doesn't have that much experience under his belt. At times Coach Few does bring him out and replace him for a spell. Next year Matty is gone, whoose the point guard then if you don't develop Meech? Let the fella keep doing his thing.....he's like watching a daredevil....always operating at the edge of the envelope :). I for one appreciate his bust a$$ basketball style...I'll say this for the one hundreth time...watch how much we get pressed when he's in the game???? If you've ever been in a game against a guy that wants to run the heck out of you you'll understand just how much it affects the game.....

This team blew a 21 point lead...got down by 8...with 19000 people screaming at them...yet they clawed their way to victory! I'm pretty stoked with their performance...KEEP PASSING! KEEP MOVING! GO ZAGS.

BEST post in this entire thread - thanks, Jim!

ZagMania
01-02-2010, 05:18 PM
If I had to put out one lineup to get a single bucket on one possession I'd go with Bouldin, Gray, Kong, Harris, and Sacre. However, thats not a basketball game. Tonight especially our guys looked really jet lagged and tired. In the beginning of the game Illinois wasn't pressuring us with our defense and despite our lethargicness we were able to move the ball around and get good looks which we canning. Once Illinois amped up the pressure it led to their big run, every loose ball they seemed to get to first, our passes and looks were a second too late, we were a step off.

I've been in favor of running Matt at the point previously, but looking at this game especially we need Meech to handle the inglorious parts of the game (bringing the ball up the court, harassing the other teams pg). If Matty has to do these things he doesn't make those clutch plays down the stretch and he can't do those things as well as Meech does anyways, and nor can Arop.

Pargo the Destroyer
01-02-2010, 05:30 PM
After a game, this board is depressing, win or lose. What has happened to this place? It's just grim. Thanks for that, Reborn.

This is the best post in this thread. I don't care how many pts meeches guy got, meeches team got the W. End of story.

ZagMania
01-02-2010, 05:32 PM
In the moment I was furious when Meech tried to force the issue at the end of regulation, but the more I take a step back and I think a lot of the posts and opinions are a little harsh.

First the obvious which I'm not sure I've read posted. The Illini just nailed a three to tie it in front of a sold out United Center. The place was a 20,000 sea of orange going absolutely nuts. I'm not sure too many college players would have the composure and awareness to make a great play in that situation. He certainly thought there was less time than there was, and one thing we all love about Meech after WKU is his determination.

Secondly, I get annoyed when people call Meech a veteran although I know its usually in his defense as to why he should be starting. He is a soph that is in his first year with the point guard responsibilities. How many times have we seen Raivio, Pargo, and heck even Bouldin struggle in those last shot opportunities. It is not easy to keep your offensive awareness up in those situations, just see McCamey at the end of OT.

Despite some good shooting our team looked jet lagged and tired today. If Matt has to bring the ball up every possession and chase around McCamey he doesn't make the plays he made down the stretch.

DickausBuzzerBeaters
01-02-2010, 05:48 PM
LOL at this message board.. Everybody is thrilled with the win.. but just because we win doesn't mean we have no flaws and no weak spots.. We didn't win the championship. Isn't this what the message board is for? I swear most of the posters on here are the players themselves, or their parents upset that someone points out a flaw. MESSAGE BOARD, PEOPLE.

Nobody is saying "bad play meech, you're going to do this for the next 3 years and we hate you." Just because he's a sophomore, doesn't mean an error he makes is any less of an error.

This board sucks. No opinion is allowed. You can't say anything "negative". I'm sure I'll probably get banned, but I spend time on the UW, WSU, and Oregon Scout websites, and they actually ALLOW Criticism and discussion about how to improve. Here? If you say anything negative about Gonzaga or a player, you get ripped on.

I'm starting to think this board is run by the White House, and Gonzaga is as protected as Obama. Way to ruin Gonzaga's only board!

jim77
01-02-2010, 05:59 PM
...one last thing. Go watch the last winning bucket by Elias. Notice who he gets the pass from...notice who streaks through the key after making the pass...notice Elias waits just a split second to take advantage of the streaker's disruption in the middle....which was just enough to aid Elias on his shot. It doesn't all show up in the stats.

SunDevilGolfZag
01-02-2010, 06:01 PM
BEST post in this entire thread - thanks, Jim!

+1 for sure

skan72
01-02-2010, 06:02 PM
Ummm. Kelly is no where near capable of bringing the ball up the court especially under pressure. Manny? Don't know. Mark Few has chosen Meech. I got to believe that if you throw Manny at the point he will make too many mistakes coming in this late in the year and then you would be beggin for Meech back in the game.

You have to go with your best options and Mark Few is. Meech will be fine come March and this will be my last post on this subject. Not going to get into it.

I do not believe he was talking about Kelly brining the ball up. I am sure if Meech were taken out and Kelly replaced him that Bouldin or Gray would bring the ball up.

DickausBuzzerBeaters
01-02-2010, 06:03 PM
...one last thing. Go watch the last winning bucket by Elias. Notice who he gets the pass from...notice who streaks through the key after making the pass...notice Elias waits just a split second to take advantage of the streaker's disruption in the middle....which was just enough to aid Elias on his shot. It doesn't all show up in the stats.

Give him the wooden award then.

willandi
01-02-2010, 06:09 PM
I was upset at Meech not passing too, but we won!!!

You are allowed to state your opinion, but remember, these are young men (older children), who, while getting a scholarship, are not professional athletes. You can state your opinion, but cut them a little slack and don't be over-harsh.

Or, if you want, tell us where you work, and what you do, and let us criticize you!!.

And remember, nobody is forcing you to be here!!

I know that my job is very public, and I am judged on my performance by every client. I have, fortunately, come out at well over 50% on the good side ( more in the 98%+ range) but when you are in retail, you can't afford to lose clients. I have to be careful too of how I criticize other competitors, because you can turn off your customer base that way as well.

Just try not to be too vitriolic, and be fair in your opinions, with no personal attacks, and it should be fine, or just learn to ignore the neg rep...it works for uber.

RenoZag
01-02-2010, 06:10 PM
This board sucks. No opinion is allowed. . . Way to ruin Gonzaga's only board!

Try this one, then, DBB

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=130

or :

http://www.slipperstillfits.com/

or:

http://gonzaga-bulldogs-basketball.groups.cbssports.com/mcc/groups/group/8842154

ZagMania
01-02-2010, 06:13 PM
Haha, no one said you can't state your opinion. I'm just stating mine... very :confused:

snebzag
01-02-2010, 06:17 PM
I posted last year "Can Meech Shoot" Thought I might get a brick through the window. He does a good job when under control. Lately he seem's a bit out of control. Manny needs more minutes no doubt. More rebounds, more points if he gets the look from the corner. Let SG or MB run the point with Manny do his thing. I have watched Manny and he is unselfish, runs coaches offense and is very disiplined for a frosh. Yes he has his moments, OK not perfect, but can contribute big time, especially on the glass and atleast as good at the line as DG. if not better.

vandalzag
01-02-2010, 06:20 PM
...one last thing. Go watch the last winning bucket by Elias. Notice who he gets the pass from...notice who streaks through the key after making the pass...notice Elias waits just a split second to take advantage of the streaker's disruption in the middle....which was just enough to aid Elias on his shot. It doesn't all show up in the stats.

Good grief. Other than passing the ball, Goodson had zero impact on the play. In fact as soon as he cut through the lane his man left him and headed back towards the middle of the key. If Harris had gone more north to south than east to west, Goodson's man could have been in position to take a charge. To say that he had any effect on the play is just silly. First, Harris did not even wait to square up on his man, he made a partial pivot to face and then went strong to the basket. The man guarding Harris did not even look at Goodson. Second, Goodson cut to the hoop was too far away from Harris to be effective and he was not even looking for the ball.
Why would the defense be concerned with a player that had scored zero points in the game.

DickausBuzzerBeaters
01-02-2010, 06:21 PM
When Gonzaga plays to their stregths, they rarely get beat.. Meech sometimes disrupts this. When he doesn't, we are very, very good. that's all we ask of Meech, play to your strengths.

alaskazagnut
01-02-2010, 06:33 PM
Jaded and spoiled maybe. I for one am interested in other peoples opinions of Meech and his play during this game, right now, not tomorrow or Monday. I want to hear others opinions today. He scored 1 point. He had energy and fire. He missed 66% of his freethrows. He wore down the other guys till they were cramping. He is a soph still learning. He is a soph with a stellar defensive game. Whatever it is, I want to talk about it now.

I expect to win this game. I expect to win the WCC and I expect to get into the sweet 16. I see some things in this game and others even if they were wins, that could keep us from another elite 8. I want a championship!!! Why wait to share opinions on ways the Zags might improve to win it all.

We all are happy at being 11-3. We are all happy about winning this truly entertaining and important game. We also should be looking ahead to get BETTER!! Some get mad if I say "we should be 12-2 or 13-1". Like I am complaining about being 11-3.We lose games where we are up 15, 18 or 21. We almost lost this one, but we didn't. The talking heads on ESPN talk about the failures and problems, so we can too. I can bet that the team is not going to bask in the glory of this victory and Mark Few will be explaining the pros and CONS of the game starting tonight. So what, if some of us armchair coaches discuss the problems rather than the successes. It is fun talking about where we can get better especially if some of those things are glaring deficiencies. Its kinda like cable TV. If you don't like it, don't read it. The title of this thread says it all and if you don't like the idea of discussing Arop over Meech then don't open up the thread. Simple.

Rio Runner
01-02-2010, 06:46 PM
This situation reminds me of a few years back when Few played Altidor-Cespedes way too much.

No one is questioning Goodson's effort. But he is killing the Zags on both ends of the floor.

DixieZag
01-02-2010, 07:21 PM
I think it is fair to question whether the team plays better with X or Y, that is what sports are about, and there is a VERY legitimate issue here. The thing that is out of bounds is calling out a kid in personal terms, we can all call NBA player X as a whiny overpaid lazy piece of whatever, b/c they are grown men who have chosen to put themselves out and are paid to do so. Not so for college KIDS.

This is not a splitting hairs question. BZ the deepest, level headed voice on the board started a thread stating he didn't like playing 4 on 5 offensively. That is a fair point. IMHO Meech is a liability, your PG can't be the first person a team would foul at the end of the game! It is possible for a coach to "love" a kids heart (and Meech has a big heart in that motor) and sometimes not see the faults. Many of us want Arop in the line up. I do.

But I didn't think that it was possible that this young team would be 11-3, so as they say down here, I ain't gonna be complainin all that much bout nothin'.

Saxon_zag
01-02-2010, 07:42 PM
Give him the wooden award then.

Lol love the sarcasm.. It's gotten to the point on this board where the super zag homers who don't want to say anything critiquing anyone in a zag jersey will find the smallest things that a player did to justify his playing time. Yes meech did a nice job to get the tie up at the end but all in all he was a negative player for this team today.

krozman
01-02-2010, 08:31 PM
In the moment I was furious when Meech tried to force the issue at the end of regulation, but the more I take a step back and I think a lot of the posts and opinions are a little harsh.

.

I think he was the perfect person to take that last shot. His speed to the bucket in transition is a rare talent. It failed semi miserably, but nobody should be critcized for ONE SHOT. If the halfcourt was back and the defense was set, he's one of the last people I want to take the shot, but thats not what happened.

Reborn
01-02-2010, 08:48 PM
After a game, this board is depressing, win or lose. What has happened to this place? It's just grim. Thanks for that, Reborn.

Who's grim, ZN? Not me. I think I am the happiest I have been all year. This was the greatest victory of them all. But that also doesn't mean that I can't have a discussion with people about something that still concerns me. And I doubt that anyone is grim accept you and a few others who can't tolerate a good healthy discussion about something (pros and cons). No one is blasting Few and no one is calling Meech names. He's the one who plays the way he does.

You see and hear what you want to ZN. And I am not trying to ruin anything. There have been probably 10 new threads about the game, and only this one is a thread where people are free enough to speak their minds openly. I thought this was a discussion board. What does that mean to you and others who can't stand any criticism about something.

I wanted to talk mostly about Manny, and how frustrated I am about him not getting to play more as well. I split my post up. Yes I criticized the play of meech. And I believe there is a place for that on a discussion board. To imply that none of those who had criticism did not like this victory is ABSURD. I am glad you came here to speak your mind, and I am glad you have the freedom to do that, and I hope no one tells you to go back to your own thread, and happy place. I want to hear what you think, even about me, and even if I don't like it. I want to assure you that I don't have the power to ruin anyone's happy thuoghts. You are in charge of your own thoughts. I don't try to hurt people. And I certainly don't try to ruin the love on this board for the Zags. And I won't block you and your posts out of my life because we see things differently. nor will I encourge others to do that. But I will encourage others to seek the freedom to discuss things that concern them, and to do it in as good as way as is possible. I like diversity.

I see where BZ also appeared to be offended by my thread. I'm sorry he had to see it the way he did, as if I wanted to create a battle between Meech and Manny, or that I wanted to have one Zag do battle against another. That's what his mind saw in it. Not mine. I wanted to share my thoughts and maybe get a discussion going. I love the Zags as much as you and BZ or anyone else on this board. I guess I just have a different understanding of love than you.

portlandzag
01-02-2010, 09:00 PM
This situation reminds me of a few years back when Few played Altidor-Cespedes way too much.

And me, I thought at the time Few subbed out PMAC at the slightest offense while leaving other guys in through much worse. On the flip side, I used to get irritated with Few for leaving Bouldin in for too long when I felt he was being careless with the ball.

Was I right? Probably not. I have since come to realize that Few has long term objectives that I don't always see game to game. I imagine the same is true with DG. His play was frustrating today, but he'll probably win some games for us before the year is out.

zag4christ
01-02-2010, 09:08 PM
The inappropriate criticism of Meech following today's great win in Chicago is unbelievable. Who pushed the ball the entire game? Who had the guts to go in and get a tieup in OT? Go Meech!!!!

ronh_pm
01-02-2010, 09:20 PM
It seems obvious as hell to me that as Meech starts every game, plays massive minutes every game, and is in the game in every pressure situation, he is doing exactly what the Coach (remember him) is asking him to do. Other than one blowout the Zags have *almost* been unbeatable.

Why would he change?

ID ZAGFAN
01-02-2010, 09:23 PM
+1000

Id Zagfan

Zerogame
01-02-2010, 09:32 PM
Have you ever had a puppy? They are cute and huggable. A little uncoordinated at first, but in no time they mature, donít step on their ears, or sit in their piss. Thatís a college kid. One minute they look and sound for all the world to have it together, the next they do stupid. Cut these kids some slack. The coaching staff use years of wisdom and experience when handling players. You donít yank a kid every time a mistake is made, you counsel and coach.
Itís okay to voice your complaint about a player, but remember they are kids and think how you would feel if you read some of the things written on this board. Lastly, potential recruits read these boards.

jim77
01-02-2010, 09:42 PM
Wanna screw up a team? Have ball handling problems before the play even starts. Theres a reason why pressure at the point of attack is important...cause it messes up the flow of the offense. The fact is MEECH IS the best ball handler on the team...PERIOD. Whats my definition of a good ball handler? Give a guy a bassktball and then send 5 guys after him? I guarantee you Meech is the toughest to pry the ball from. Why? Cause he's by far the quickest.

Here's a senario for ya: Most like me are hoping for a deep run in the dance. What if we come up against a John Wall or other super quick player....who could give either Matty or Steven fits bringing it up the court, not to mention press us. If we get far enough eventually you will need ATHLETES...shall we sit him then when Kentucky or NC show up we can suddenly throw him in? It doesn't work that way. I'll tell ya something else too....if ya wanna screw up a team....joggle you're point between people. If theres one position that needs to be stable...its the point. Plan on having a seasoned point next year? Gray WILL BE the sg....guess who that leaves at point? Meech. Does it mean that Meech should play all 40 minutes? NO. Giibb should see time too.... which means Meech needs to be out there most of the time. I think some people on here think the opposing(athletics) teams will not go after a slower or more vulnerable player...wrong. Matt gets blanketed when he points...SEE DUKE...CINNCY......and wait till the tourney....Meech is far from perfect but he does alot more than meets the eye. Right now, Meech does the dirty work and then hands it off to Matt...which isn't bad cause Matt is a very good playmaker.

This teams biggest problem right now is NOT MEECH.....Its Passing and Movement without the ball....and that part is improving. Am I against mixing it up? Nope. I think Arop is fantastic...I think Kong is too and under certain conditions they will see time....just like they do now. The coach is playing it right IMO.

Baldwinzag
01-02-2010, 10:04 PM
NT

Frazzle
01-02-2010, 10:06 PM
+1 to zerogame's post.
PEople should post whatever you want but don't get so upset when people come to the defense of a 19 yr old college sophmore. As fans we all have opinions. Sometime I cringe reading critical posts because I wonder what the critiqued player must think reading how horrible he is and why he should just get out of the way to make room for someone "better.". I cant imagine it helps him play better.
While I am no stranger to a coach rippin me a new one for doing something stupid, I am pretty sure I would not have appreciated hearing fans say the same thing. Meech is our starting point. Unless and until coach few sees someone doing a better job in practice to take meechs minutes I don't think there is going to be a change. Meech knows he needs to work on certain aspects of his game and I am confident he will figure it out. How
many people that wanted gray to be replaced in the lineup are convinced we would have won today's game without his contributions. Where is the mea culpa thread for Steven.

alaskazagnut
01-02-2010, 10:29 PM
Meech had one point. And from that standpoint and that stand point alone, he should have passed it back from out of the paint. He is supreme at bringing the ball up court, distributing and maintaining the coaches playbook. Meech has a role, he should start, and he should get starters minutes. But IMO, he is cold shooting, and he should've looked behind him to Bouldin for the last shot.

Those who are glowing Meech worshipers, need to open their eyes and see that he is cold shooting. He is cold with jumpers, cold from 3pt land and he is cold from the FT line. He is shooting poorly this year. Period. Those who are Meech haters should chill out and see that he understands and runs the offense very well. Right now there is no complete point guard package on the team and Meech is the best option at point guard right now and he is only a soph. So chill. If he can make 1 more shot out of every 10 he takes he will be a complete package.

Right now he should be a starter, period. Especially if he remembers his role that he excels at right now. Playmaking. He shouldn't force shots, that doesn't work for anyone and is not good for the team. He needs to wait for the open jumpers or pass to the open man until he gets his shot back. He forced the last shot in overtime IMO. No biggie. It happens.

I think people are over-reacting to that last shot. But also people are over-reacting to those who are over-reacting. I might be over-reacting to those who are over-reacting to the over-reactors.:explode:

I might be one of the over-reactors but I believe he has earned and deserves his starting position. However, his shooting this year really worries me. If he can't fix the problem during conference play, we will see some "experimenting" with the starting 5 to get ready for the tournaments.

ZagNative
01-02-2010, 10:32 PM
I had hoped it wouldn't have to come to this, but it's become obvious that Reborn has fallen under the control of the Evil One, and there is no recourse but to call in ....

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff232/ZagNative/Junk/Emoticons/Exorcism.gif

The Exorcist!

This may not be pretty folks. You may want to move well back and make use of your tarp from those old Gallagher shows so no flying blather lands on you.

JPtheBeasta
01-02-2010, 10:53 PM
I have heared many times that the most popular guy on a football team is the backup quarterback. We have a tendency to be more critical of the people we see more of because we have a chance to see more of their shortcomings. Meech is the starting point guard right now. What backup quarterback do we have that would do a better job of filling his shoes? Arop certainly isn't the answer. Matt doesn't have the best handles and would be exhausted at the end of every game if he was the running the point. Gray is much more suited to the shooting guard role. GJ is too aggressive when he comes in and has a shoot first mentality. Grant? I don't think he is quick enough to guard the really atheletic guys the Zags go up against (why didn't he get a single minute the other day, btw? That's a thread unto itself). That leaves Stockton or P-Maag- maybe one of them is the answer for all of the Meech haters out there.

Meech is the fifth option on offense for this team. Any other guy they put out there with the other starters would be in the same boat. I'm disappointed with the slow development of Meech's offense, but he wasn't THE reason we lost to Duke, Wake, or Michigan St. He's simply not in there for his offense. If Few really thought we needed more offense out there he would be playing GJ or maybe Gibbs, for his 3-point shooting.

If you pressed me more on the offense issue, I would say that we need more at times out of Gray, who is clearly the more gifted offensive player, has more experience, and is playing a position intended to score points (the term "shooting guard" evokes the image of scoring points, to me). I love Gray, so please don't get me wrong here. He played great defense on Clay Thompson and look how it made his offense suffer. It seems to be very physically demanding to have a lock-down defensive effort AND score a bunch of points on a consistant basis on the D1 level, but I digress.

On another note, Meech earned the right to make that shot at the end of regulation. Do any of the naysayers here still remember the W. Kentucky game?
Further, it is very hard to know how much time you have at the end of the game when you have the ball in your hands and running full speed up the court. I would rather anyone take a shot than pass the ball to an open man who may not have time to get a shot off. At least we got one up.

Keep it up Meech. Strive to get better, and the Zags will be that much better for it. My filibuster is now over, and I yield the floor...

alaskazagnut
01-02-2010, 11:24 PM
that Meech is THE reason for any of our losses, or that he is a bad player. All of our starters have had lapses in judgement or in their game play.

Unfortunately.....

It is Goodson's turn with the baton in the "Shouldn't Start Anymore" relay race. Sacre had it, Harris grabbed it who handed it to Gray, and now Meech is running with it.

You can quote me on that analogy.

Zag79
01-03-2010, 12:20 AM
give it a break. manny cant bring the ball up, or play shut down d like meech. thats all meech really needs to do. if manny plays for meech, bouldin has to bring the ball up, start the O, break the press, play d on the fastest guard, and be required to score, pass and lead the team?! :lmao: not going to happen. we saw what happens at the end of the oklahoma game when he does that. flat, flat, oh and more flat. thats just too much for matty to have to do when we have a very skilled PG who can accomplish what the coach wants him to for this team. if it doesnt saitsfy every fan who just thinks shooting is going to help us, i beg to differ.

Saxon_zag
01-03-2010, 12:43 AM
that Meech is THE reason for any of our losses, or that he is a bad player. All of our starters have had lapses in judgement or in their game play.

Unfortunately.....

It is Goodson's turn with the baton in the "Shouldn't Start Anymore" relay race. Sacre had it, Harris grabbed it who handed it to Gray, and now Meech is running with it.

You can quote me on that analogy.

Hm when did Harris ever grab it?

There must be 2 batons because i think meech has been holding one all year essentially

WallaWallaZag
01-03-2010, 01:13 AM
i would like to see arop get more playing time as well, but i think it needs to come from a combination of matt, steven, and meech...and probably will happen more against lesser opponents...was surprised he didn't get more run during the early blowout portion of the game. as many have pointed out already, against good teams with athletic guards who can play d, matt can't run the point without getting tired out. matt was pressured into making mistakes in this game as well...he needed meech in their to help take care of the ball handling duties. anyways, yes, it would be nice if meech would shoot better, but he still needs to play even if he doesn't improve his shot this year. not sure of the need to beat a dead horse...everyone knows he can't shoot, so i'm not even gonna worry about it. if it happens he improves, hey, icing on the cake!

alaskazagnut
01-03-2010, 01:43 AM
but Harris was blamed for the loss to Wake and there were some who felt he should lose his starting position because of it. I'm just saying that all of our starters except Bouldin has been in the hot seat for their poor play or their starting position. I'm just trying to have a little fun here.

seasontixholder
01-03-2010, 05:51 AM
When the Illini had their biggest lead, they were toward the end of an adrenaline run that made them all happy and bouncy. Then two things happened. Matt Bouldin began making tough plays, giving the rest of the team a little spark. That resulted in the other key component of the comeback, improved team defense. The Illini's rush wore off and they began to look tired. Rather than making the tough effort to go inside, they began flakking up treys made difficult because of increased Zag effort, especially at the point.

I sorta focused on Meech and every time that I imagined yanking him out for not providing extra offense, he did something positive. Mainly, his effort had a lot to do with tired Illini legs that, even with great fan support, couldn't find the wherewithal to overcome a bunch of bushed Zags.

Meech will start every game and the alternative is not even close. On top of that, he is showing incremental improvement in the assist department against better competition. Work in progress, but progress nonetheless.

willandi
01-03-2010, 06:39 AM
"thanks for telling us how good you are at your job. how about letting people post what they want and stop trying to censor an internet message board?"

I received this along with neg rep on this thread. I also received a P.M. with some very bad starred words, as a name, by a poster that at least identified himself.

I have NEVER tried to censor anyone on this board. I have encouraged posters to use a little sensitivity. There are many ways to say the same thing, and some posters seem to dare anyone to give them neg rep, then freak out when they get it.

The point of my saying I was good at my job was to try to get posters to think how others would react to them, on a forum like this, if they were on center stage and critiqued to no end for every thing they did, not to stop people from posting there opinions.

I know that, if the wife and I are going out, I can say "Wouldn't that top look better with a blouse or wrap over it?" or I could say "Cover up, you look like a tramp."
Which do you think would get better results?

All I have said, and asked, is a little sensitivity, and some common sense about attacking others, never to try and stop dissent or censor ideas. And, if you really want to be free to post YOUR opinions, why are you so vehemenent in attacking me for posting mine? It goes both ways.
And please, when you neg rep, have the cajones to sign your name.

Rio Runner
01-03-2010, 06:57 AM
As I read this thread, it is not soley a criticism of Goodson's play. It is a criticism of Few's decision to give Goodson so many minutes when:

1) Goodson has been a liability in several games this year, and

2) we have people on the bench who can contribute more on both ends of the floor.

Reborn
01-03-2010, 09:13 AM
Thanks for helping to create a great thread, imo. to me a great thread is one where there is actually differing opinions. And we had that here. There were at least 3 differing opinions stated here, and expressed pretty clearly, wthout trying to offend anyone. (well maybe there's an exception or two). :D

I am fortunate to be a part of a community where there is lots of dialogue and differences expressed in an open forum (and it's not on the internete). I can't tell you how many times my opinion on things have changed by listening to others. I truly appreciate people who think differently than I do. Thank you everyone. To me the worst kind of thread is one where everyone thinks alike, and the worst kind of community is one where people keep out other people who are different than them. But again, that's just my opinion. But seriously, I learned that best from our constituion. And also from my higher education at Gonzaga. Maybe that's why it's called a Liberal Arts school.:)

ID ZAGFAN
01-03-2010, 10:04 AM
that Meech is THE reason for any of our losses, or that he is a bad player. All of our starters have had lapses in judgement or in their game play.

Unfortunately.....

It is Goodson's turn with the baton in the "Shouldn't Start Anymore" relay race. Sacre had it, Harris grabbed it who handed it to Gray, and now Meech is running with it.

You can quote me on that analogy.


Great analogy! :D

ID ZAGFAN

bartruff1
01-03-2010, 10:31 AM
Meech's statistics look better (to me) than any of his potential replacements. Few goes to all the games and practices, I think he knows what he is doing.

john montana
01-03-2010, 12:25 PM
We absolutely need meech, but he kills us in the half court offense. Over the last few games I think coach few has done a great job with his minutes. He has played long stretches with meech on the bench, but still had meech in for key situations. Our best lineup against Oklahoma did not include meech but our best lineup against Illinois had meech in there (in large part becAuse jeff Jordan pressured rather than laid off like we have seen.) I like what few is doing with him right now.

But man, do I hope this coming offseason meech develops enough of a jumpshot to keep his defender home.

Bocco
01-03-2010, 01:48 PM
Meech can't shoot, made horrible passes, and wasn't guarding his man during the Illinois comeback. And his man continues to sag in the middle on D.

And don't tell me about his D again. His man, McCaney killed him for 20 points, most came in the comeback. Meech did do a good job on him at the end. But he was way to short for Meech to guard.


Reborn - when you started this thread and posted the above it bothered me.

First I will concede you initial statement regarding his shooting, even more disturbing to me is his free throw shooting. I doubt if we will see any improvement in his outside shot, at least this year, I do think he needs to and can improve his foul shooting.

Second I will disagree on his passing. There were 21 Zag turnovers, 19 of those turnovers came during the time the game went from a 21 pt Zag lead to a 8 pt Illinois lead, Meech was responsible for three, two of those were passes and of those two one was actually tipped out of bounds by an Illinois player. I'll grant you he did make a couple ill advised passes, but to single Meech out is not fair, he was not alone and by no means were his passes (except one of them) atrocious.

Finally and what bothered me the most were your comments about his defense, because watching the game I thought Meech played execelent defense. So I went back and rewatched the game (advantage of having a DVR) 9 of McCaney's 20 pts were scored when Meech was defending him, of those 9 points 2 were free throws (when Meech was called fro a blocking foul), 5 were off screens, and the last 2 were off a catch a shoot. In short your comments about his defense are in error, most of McCamey's points did not come during the first half when the Illini cut a 21 pt Zag lead to 8 pts, and most of McCamey points did not come when Meech was guarding him, and if I remember correctly 9 of his points came when Meech wasn't even in the game.

I can accept your being frustrated with his shooting, especially the last shot of regulation, I can accept being frustrated with his foul shots, I can even accept being frustrated with Arop playing time and believing that he should be getting more. But, please in your frustration do not throw in as fact things that at least in this game are just not true.

krozman
01-03-2010, 03:18 PM
Who would have thought after losing so many last year that we would be 11-3? I was hoping for 9-4.


You were hoping that one of our opponents would just forget to come over and play us? :lmao:

dim4sum
01-03-2010, 05:09 PM
Let's say Meech goes down. What then? Vilarino doesn't move in because although he's more of a scoring threat, he has yet to learn team play--and this team tends to fall to pieces when play gets selfish.
If Grant Gibbs plays you get an element of stability. Gibbs can shoot and lead but the team loses its dynamism with him in there. Less dynamism means fewer points.
Do we haul Hart out of the woodwork. Who knows? He's big enough and CAN shoot the three, or at least he did in HS in Portland.
Another possibility, Meech goes down and Stockton loses his redshirt and plays.
With plays set up for him, he can create--but to a lesser extent, Stockton could easily pop for three threes a game and has the court IQ to draw fouls without making silly drives into a Redwood forest.
With the exception of Vilarino, none have Meech's speed. But in Stockton and Gibbs, you get less glitz and more substance. Vilarino just isn't ready and it is just wild speclation to see Manny at the point. Better yet, it be PG by committee with Gray and Bouldin sharing duties, and whomever subs for them doing the same.
I said earlier that in my book Meech would not start and would in fact be the fourth man off the bench. I still agree with that.

Darth Zag
01-03-2010, 05:22 PM
Let's say Meech goes down. What then? Vilarino doesn't move in because although he's more of a scoring threat, he has yet to learn team play--and this team tends to fall to pieces when play gets selfish.
If Grant Gibbs plays you get an element of stability. Gibbs can shoot and lead but the team loses its dynamism with him in there. Less dynamism means fewer points.
Do we haul Hart out of the woodwork. Who knows? He's big enough and CAN shoot the three, or at least he did in HS in Portland.
Another possibility, Meech goes down and Stockton loses his redshirt and plays.
With plays set up for him, he can create--but to a lesser extent, Stockton could easily pop for three threes a game and has the court IQ to draw fouls without making silly drives into a Redwood forest.
With the exception of Vilarino, none have Meech's speed. But in Stockton and Gibbs, you get less glitz and more substance. Vilarino just isn't ready and it is just wild speclation to see Manny at the point. Better yet, it be PG by committee with Gray and Bouldin sharing duties, and whomever subs for them doing the same.
I said earlier that in my book Meech would not start and would in fact be the fourth man off the bench. I still agree with that.

Imho, it would have to be gibbs or by committee of gray and bouldin. hart strikes me as an off-guard. stockton is so small now that i wonder how he would defend a guy who is well over 6 feet. goodsen might be a terror in the Wcc. my opinion.

cjm720
01-03-2010, 06:26 PM
We won and dominated the first half a good part because of Meech's tempo. Sure he made some bad plays tonight, more than normal unfortunately, but his speed, strength, and "veteran" knowledge was needed against the Illini.

Go Meech, Go Zags!!!

Reborn
01-03-2010, 07:27 PM
Reborn - when you started this thread and posted the above it bothered me.

First I will concede you initial statement regarding his shooting, even more disturbing to me is his free throw shooting. I'm doubt if we will see any improvement in his outside shot, at least this year, I do think he needs to and can improve his foul shooting.

Second I will disagree on his passing. There were 21 Zag turnovers, 19 of those turnovers came during the time the game went from a 21 pt Zag lead to a 8 pt Illinois lead, Meech was responsible for three, two of those were passes and of those two one was actually tipped out of bounds by an Illinois player. I'll grant you he did make a couple ill advised passes, but to single Meech out is not fair, he was not alone and by no means were his passes (except one of them) atrocious.

Finally and what bothered me the most were your comments about his defense, because watching the game I thought Meech played execelent defense. So I went back and rewatched the game (advantage of having a DVR) 9 of McCaney's 20 pts were scored when Meech was defending him, of those 9 points 2 were free throws (when Meech was called fro a blocking foul), 5 were off screens, and the last 2 were off a catch a shoot. In short your comments about his defense are in error, most of McCamey's points did not come during the first half when the Illini cut a 21 pt Zag lead to 8 pts, and most of McCamey points did not come when Meech was guarding him, and if I remember correctly 9 of his points came when Meech wasn't even in the game.

I can accept your being frustrated with his shooting, especially the last shot of regulation, I can accept being frustrated with his foul shots, I can even accept being frustrated with Arop playing time and believing that he should be getting more. But, please in your frustration do not throw in as fact things that at least in this game are just not true.

I think this is your best piece of work to date Bocco. And thanks for the extra work. I could possibly be letting my feelings for Arop affect my thoughts about Meech. This wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong. Peace to all.

Zag79
01-03-2010, 09:13 PM
As I read this thread, it is not soley a criticism of Goodson's play. It is a criticism of Few's decision to give Goodson so many minutes when:

1) Goodson has been a liability in several games this year, and

2) we have people on the bench who can contribute more on both ends of the floor.

we saw the end result of matt missing badly at the end of the oklahoma game after he had to run point and do it all for too long. we need meech to bring up the ball, get it into the scorers hands, and play lock down d. he does all that. with so many scorers hes hardly a liablilty and is the ONLY guy we have who can go from basket to basket for a layup. he will remain the starter, few has very few criticisms in comparison to some posters, and manny even being a phenomenal rebounder and energy boost, cant replace meech. meech getting blamed for a loss or his couple TO's being blabbed about incessantly reminds me of pargo vs uconn last year. he got ripped apart for 2 TO's even though he was easily the main reason we were in the game at all. zzz...

CanadianZagFan
01-04-2010, 05:07 AM
I have read the comments in this thread and put some thought into Goodson and the minutes he gets. As a Canadian I would love to see Arop, Kong and Kelly all get more minutes, but I really had to evaluate things and be a coach (I am an assistant with a small college) and look at whats best. A team wants to peak in March not in January.

Goodson is playing the second least minutes of the starters, only playing more than Sacre...probably due to fouls. His overall f/g percentage is actually higher than Matt Bouldin's. Yes he shoots Free throws at just over 60%, not great and his 3 point shooting is terrible, but overall he has slowly started to improve his game management.

Goodson will be needed, as many posters have pointed out, when we come up against teams with fast back-courts that pressure the ball. That does not mean however that Goodson will continue to play the minutes he is right now. Come conference play we will see GJ, Manny, Arop and Gibbs all get extended looks vs. the weaker teams.

People were upset in the first few games that Kong was not playing, Few made sure he got up to speed and was successful when he did play. I feel we will see the same thing with GJ as he can cut his teeth vs. the San Fransisco's, Pepperdine's and San Diego's.

I would like to revisit this thread after the first 5 league games and see what we are thinking at that time. I am sure the teams depth will be showing and Arop, GJ, Gibbs and even Poling will be given a good chance to gain experience needed going forward.