Gu v. EWU - I wanted to see more

[gamagin]

I was hoping to see more teamwork.

I was really hoping to see some well executed pick and rolls, especially involving Sacre.

I was hoping to see us run our game inside out, with Sacre being the guy everyone worked to get the ball to and for RS to make some instantaneous decisions to stuff, drive or dish -- over and over. Even when he was open and calling for the ball, it didn't seem to be happening. It didn't seem to even be emphasized from my vantage. It wasn't what our guys were looking to do each time they crossed center court. And it's been that way for several games now. I think the trust has broken down. Or the idea has been de emphasized because it just isn't happening.

Otherwise, this scrimmage looked to me like a situation in which a very relaxed GU team simply ran over, without any particular discipline or offensive sets, or need to execute, an inferior, mismatched bunch of willing, but less able and mostly shorter, EWU hoopsters.

I most especially was hoping to see RS drive to the basket the way Harris did and does every game, the way, to a lesser degree, but very effectively, Meech, MB, KO, Meech, Arop, Polling, drove it in, or drove and dished, or worked the ball until someone was open. Even Big Will tried to kick it back one time when he was surrounded by the enemy -- showing a little savvy. And there were a few efforts at getting him the ball over the top. It should be SOP with RS.

But the action around the ball and around the middle when RS was in there, seemed not to involve him. Not much or enough anyway. And anytime the ball is near the hoop and RS is in the game, the action should revolve around him, imo. He's right there. Or should be. Inches from two easy points or to draw a foul.

The other thing I was hoping to see was more attention, more reverence and focus, smoother motions, maybe even a practice shot or two, without the ball, as if we were working on it, at the charity stripe. Didn't happen. Doink. Clank. Herky jerky body language. Off balance, sometimes rushed shooting. Misses. Not much evidence of focus for most.

Because if there were two things that needed improvement after Duke it was our inside game and f.t. shooting.

Being able to can shots against a weak team from downtown doesn't indicate anything to me except our guys are not feeling much pressure and the game is in their command.

What we needed to do was take charge in the areas where we have been weakest and where improvement needs to become more visible, celebrated and rewarded.

RS just doesn't seem to have that killer instinct. That Harris-like determination to get to the basket and the upper body strength to muscled it or wish it into the basket. Nor the finesse of MB to find the opening.

Here's hoping these two aspects of our game re emerge vs. Ok. because we need it to complete our game from now on, I believe.

Go TEAM Zags !

[Ziggy]

Good post gamagin. Rob has not responded well to the perpetual double in the post and when he gets to the line he misses every other one. Not much room for scoring in that scenario.

[ZagNative]

Super post, gamagin! Thanks!

[kitzbuel]

What I would really like to see is Rob passing out of the post under duress. He has obviously worked very hard in the offseason on his post moves and shooting and that has paid off. His next big step is to learn how to pass out of pressure and, perhaps more importantly, when to pass vs. when to go hard to the hoop. I think that is the next step in his evolution (still only a soph so he has lots of time).

[ZagLawGrad]

Unfortunately, the EWU game turned out to be not much more than a pick-up game when it was all said and done. Positive aspect was that it did give some playing time to some of the new guys without any real pressure on them.

But can't use EWU as a reasonable measure of how this team (especially our rookies) will fare against OU or Illinois. Don't see any merit to advocating starting Arop over experienced upperclassmen based on EWU---and that isn't a slam on him as he did play well. But it was EWU---and EWU is not OU or Illiinois---indeed, EWU is a REALLY bad team right now.

[FuManShoes]

Why no alley-oops?

Just me, or does this team not really employ the alley-oop despite having superior tahletes such as Harris, Rob, Manny, Kong and even Kelly who can go up and get it? Is it because:

a. Meech and GJ beat the bigs down the court and prefer to drive
b. Those two lack the court vision / passing ability to set up oops
c. Defenders sag off our point guards, leaving things clogged near the hoop
d. Our bigs don't make back-cuts as Micah, Josh and others used to do
e. None of the above. We actually do throw oops and I've missed them.

[Ziggy]

Just me, or does this team not really employ the alley-oop despite having superior tahletes such as Harris, Rob, Manny, Kong and even Kelly who can go up and get it? Is it because:

a. Meech and GJ beat the bigs down the court and prefer to drive
b. Those two lack the court vision / passing ability to set up oops
c. Defenders sag off our point guards, leaving things clogged near the hoop
d. Our bigs don't make back-cuts as Micah, Josh and others used to do
e. None of the above. We actually do throw oops and I've missed them.

f. all of the above.


Is that a possible choice, Fu?

[FuManShoes]

f. all of the above.


Is that a possible choice, Fu?

Why yes, I believe it is

[gamagin]

+1

Good post gamagin. Rob has not responded well to the perpetual double in the post and when he gets to the line he misses every other one. Not much room for scoring in that scenario.

imo, by now, RS needs to adjust to the fact that everyone is going to try to box him in. But he is or can & has been very nimble, athletic looking, good hops, & seemingly energetic to stay that way.

He needs to steal a page from Harris and move around more, harass his tormentor by outhustling him (them), twist and turn and basically raise hell until he gets the ball. Then when he gets it everyone else needs to get the hell out of the way.

Just like Harris, he needs to be playing with a sense of purpose, not perplexity. Just like turiaf, just like JP, just like violette before him.

Because he has all of their ability, plus one more, important, thing: height.

It's the adjustment that's lacking. The game between his ears, outside himself, in a basketball zone, not being bothered by anything else, that he hasn't yet made a matter of routine, of instincts kicking in and confidence in his many gifts becoming second nature.

It's going to show up one day and it'll take him wherever he wants to go in basketball. But I'm hoping he will take the step sooner than later. I think it is time at least to start showing signs of recognition.

Before the game, it is RS who dances around inside the team circle. He is the guy they all look to for inspiration, a goofy, uniquely native dance that he performs at midcourt to hype up the rest of them and try to energize the start.

Then it is RS who is first to tip the ball at the beginning of the game. And then the rest seem to take over.

I only started noticing recently, but I think it is symptomatic of the problem. RS seldom gets the tipoff. He didn't get it against Duke and he didn't get it vs. EWU. I'm thinking the game I see RS get the tip will be the beginning of the new Bobby Sacre era. Here's hoping, anyway.



Go TEAM Zags !

[titopoet]

Just me, or does this team not really employ the alley-oop despite having superior tahletes such as Harris, Rob, Manny, Kong and even Kelly who can go up and get it? Is it because:

a. Meech and GJ beat the bigs down the court and prefer to drive
b. Those two lack the court vision / passing ability to set up oops
c. Defenders sag off our point guards, leaving things clogged near the hoop
d. Our bigs don't make back-cuts as Micah, Josh and others used to do
e. None of the above. We actually do throw oops and I've missed them.

G. Robert is not much of a 3 or outside threat. So when he is in, he is posting up and clogging the middle, or if he goes out his defender sags off in the lane. Last year Josh, could float out to the perimeter, defender had to flow, which opened up the middle for oops. Having a true post up center has both advantages and disadvantages, but all in all the advantages out way disadvantages.

[Nevtelen]

When Meech is in there, Sacre basically has a permanent double team on him almost all of the time. It makes it hard to even get him the ball, even vs Eastern. It's a big problem and why I might agree with starting Arop over Meech at this stage. Meech's defender can play so far off him with absolutely no consequences that it totally gums up the works inside and is a huge issue. Meech himself is playing well enough except for his shooting, but having his man totally ignore him basically means that he and Sacre are both taken out of the game scoring-wise. Having Arop (or Gibbs) in there changes that.

[TacomaZAG]

Good post Gam......

the thing I have noticed, in the last few games especially, is that Rob suffers most from the fact that Meech can't make an outside shot. There were numerous times last night that when the ball went inside to Rob he was immediately double teamed by Meech's man, who was standing in the key waiting. The double team didn't have to come from across the key or from the wing, he was waiting in Rob's hip pocket. Given that fact, Rob doesn't have time to make a move or do anything other than immediately pass it back out, get stripped, travel, or get fouled. Unfortunately, if he is to pass it back out, the only guy open is the guy who can't seem to make a shot.

As you correctly point out, Rob is no threat away from the basket, so his main strength is being taken away by Meech's defender. IMO, the solution is not oops, there has to be some threat of an outside shot for the back cut/oops to be available. The solution is to keep the guard defenders honest and out of the key, clogging everyting up, and the only way to do that is have guards who can make a three point shot (Matt, Steven, Manny, Bol), or to "green light" Elias more from beyond the arc.

Meech, GJ, and GG have not shown that ability as of yet (GG made one or two last night so I might be a bit hasty with him), so the clogged up middle will be a reality until those guys can start knocking them down or are not in the game. Meech has only made one three point shot this year, according to Heister and Ehlo, and I can't remember GJ making many, or GG either before last night. So, until they start making them, Rob and Elias will not get many opportunities in the paint against good teams when those guys are in there.

Against Dook we were 1-10 from 3, or something like that, so Rob and Elias never got a chance to get going (not the only reason we lost but it didn't help). It would be nice to operate "inside out" but I think for us to win we need to operate "outside in", meaning we need to make some 3 point shots for the middle to open up.

Manny and Bol need more minutes, and they need the green light from beyond the arc.

Go ZAGS

[229SintoZag]

I actually respectfully disagree`

on one small point here.

Last night I noticed on several half court possessions that it appeared the team was making a concerted effort to pass the ball without taking a dribble. It occurred on several possessions when our starters and our normal bench guys were on the floor. A couple of times it even looked like our players were forcing it by refusing to dribble while waiting for help so that they could make a pass rather than easily dribble out of trouble.

Granted, there was still plenty of dribbling and penetrating when appropriate. But I did notice on several possessions the team appeared to be working on one-touch passing in a very quick fashion. I would not be surprised if Dr. Krause or others emphasized that they wanted to see this, nor would I be surprised if the players knew that they were being graded on it. This was a deviation from what we have seen from this team in most games this year and I am certain that it is no coincidence that we saw this the game after Duke, where Gonzaga's half court offensive woes were so clearly exposed as CDC has pointed out.

What the team lacks at this point is enough familiarity with itself to make those passes flow into a cohesive offense. I still think that will come this year if two things can happen: 1) Meech improves his jump shot to at least a bare minimum of respectability, and 2) Sacre develops an ability do know what he is doing with the ball BEFORE he gets the entry pass. (Right now, whether he puts it on the floor (which he should almost invariably never do) or not, there seems to be an inevitable hesitation once Rob gets the ball, where he sizes up his position, the defender, etc. It is only a moment, a half second or a second, but that is an eternity in this situation. This is also a reason he is having so much difficulty with the double team and with getting jammed up by defenders: his needless hesitation. Batista never had this problem and indeed was sometimes already starting his footwork and post move before he even received the entry pass. Rob is not there yet; but if he does get there, Katie bar the door).

In terms of limiting use of the dribble as a crutch for no offense, the EWU game was an improvement and a step in the right direction. (At least until the scrubs went in for the garbage minutes, which tells us nothing).

[bballbeachbum]

good insights, thanks for this thread.

here's another I think; Rob jumps slow, he's not a quick leaper. He can jump, but he jumps slow. as I recall, JP was a slow leaper too, if he even left the floor when he jumped so it's not a death sentence by any stretch, just an observation. Also, when defending the post, reaching to deflect entry passes is a bad habit and a good way to collect fouls against bigger and better players; better to use his big body to force post players away from the basket before the entry pass ever arrives; I'm thinking about Samhan here

[roxdoc]

Good thread everyone - lots of food for thought. With regards to our point-post delema, I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that MB should be the point and Meech should come off the bench in special situations where his speed and D are needed to cool down a hot hand, etc. Yes he is fast and yes he is a good defender, but this does not offset the O take away (including the extra pressure on Rob). Maybe in the next off-season he can get a jump shot going, I don't see a miracle change coming for this season.