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View Full Version : What is it going to take this year....



pbriz
04-19-2007, 10:34 AM
From the recent post from Bobzag about the team already coming together for next year it seems like there is a legitimate shot at going deep in the tournament. So what is it going to take?

I think this year the offensive firepower will be there like years past. Downs, Heytvelt, Bouldin, Pargo.... each seem to have the ability to be offensive machines this year. Our low post presence should be far improved from last year, which will open up Downs and Bouldin and Pendo to take less contested threes from outside. Our dribble penetration will open up so much. Offense really shouldn't be an issue.

I think what its going to come down to this year is defense, or more specifically our perimeter defense. Most of the big games we lost last year were due to teams raining in WIDE OPEN threes on us... Butler, WSU at the end of the game could not miss, Georgia, Singletary (Virginia), and the Santa Clara game where I think their first five shots were threes. AFter the Virginia game Singletary said this "Not wonderment," he said when asked if he was surprising even himself with his hot hand in Virginia's 108-87 victory against Gonzaga on Wednesday night, when he scored a career-best 37 points. "I was just wondering why they didn't play more `D."

So will it be improved?

I am thinking it will be and here is why. Bouldin isn't a 3 and was playing out of position all year. Wings are typically slash and drive alot more than a 2. While a 2 guard usually has some explosiveness, Bouldin will be going up against players more in the 6' 2' to 6' 4" range instead of the 6'4 to 6'7" range. Also, Downs has shown that he can play defense and at the 3 I see him doing just fine. Pargo was a solid defender last year and he will continue to be one. Kuso is a fine defender and proved to be very tough downlow when he wasn't in foul trouble and will continue to be. It was at the power forward position that we were most vulnerable. Josh has put on weight and should be alot sturdier down low with Kuso, Davis, Foster, or even Sacre and should contest any shot inside ten feet.

LongIslandZagFan
04-19-2007, 10:44 AM
I think the offense will be there, but key players need more consistency. The chemistry of the team needs to get addressed early on. Guys like Josh are going to need to either lead or be willing to follow Pargo's lead. Pargo is the leader of this team. I'd also like to see offense boards take a tick up from last year.

Defensively I get worried about a couple of things. First I worry about the perimeter defense. Last year they gave up a ton of 3s and fouled on way too many of the ones that they missed. Secondly they need a more definite low post presence to pull in the boards. They got outdone on the boards way too many times. They need to get back into that mentality of priding themselves on controlling the boards (haven't had that since Chisel and JP left).

D Hark 2003
04-19-2007, 10:46 AM
I think with Pargo and Bouldin instead of Pargo and Raivio we will be better equipped to guard against the three point shot simply because of having more heighth on the outside, nothing against DRav he is just a little shorter than Bouldin.

But, more importantly we will have a better interior defense and someone (Josh) around the rim blocking shots giving our guards more freedom to move farther away from the hoop and challenge outside shots without having to worry about helping out on the interior so much.

MickMick
04-19-2007, 11:11 AM
So many people with so much faith in Pargo. His freshman year he was a turnover machine, and it came back to haunt him at times in his sophmore campaign. Reference the end of regulation against Memphis or the end of 1st half against Stanford. Nobody makes "deep runs" with "crunch time" play like that.

His potential is there, but he needs to make much better decisions with the ball.

As far as the Matt verse DRav on defense goes...DRav is much quicker with both his hands and feet. Bouldin may become solid defensively, but he certainly will not approach the number of steals that Ravio had. His heighth may help at the perimeter, but I'm interested in how well he will handle the pump fake followed by a drive down the lane. I am not convinced he has the quicks to deal with it...hence the huge need for an inside presence. Bouldin will provide comparable offense by way of assists (great passer).

What is it gonna take? Sacre, Foster, Davis, and Heytvelt to step up in a big way. You are fooling yourself if you think the guards will carry this team. Watch that Indiana game again to get back in touch with reality.

D Hark 2003
04-19-2007, 11:17 AM
MickMick, watch more than one game before you make up your mind on a player's overall ability, you obviously didnt watch the UNC game... Our guards didnt play well against indiana because we had no inside play to speak of, therefore the Hoosiers could focus on stopping our guards. Yes Pargo has fumbled at the end of a half and game twice but im glad he got the experience of having the ball in his hands at the end of the game. THat will be valuable this year when he has the ball in his hands again. Only this time we have some more play makers for him to work with, its not all on his shoulders.

As far as matt vs drav--we were talking about stopping other teams from shooting so well from 3pt range, not who will get more steals

As far as reality goes, i would say the indiana game is as far from reality as you can get... We had micah downs playing power forward of course they are going to stop our guards with no one down low to do any damage

roxdoc
04-19-2007, 12:30 PM
D Hark I am really with you on this. One of the primary reasons we were so poor against the 3 last year was that our guards were always collapsing to help out down low. Particularly to "protect" our few available bigs from getting into foul trouble. How many times have we seen one of our guards dashing out from the key toward a wide open shooter? :mad:

Next year it looks like we have quite an array of bigs who are all pretty athletic (some not so experienced I grant you) who should be able to fend on their own with fouls to give if necessary. Although perimeter defense has been an issue for a number of years now, I sincerely hope that the coaches will design a defense that keeps our perimeter defenders on the perimeter.

CDC84
04-19-2007, 01:00 PM
1) Avoiding major injuries
2) Playing better defense
3) Developing a 5 man that can score and rebound in the low blocks so that Josh can play the 4. Theo's development is most encouraging in this regard.

Rubbadub
04-19-2007, 01:07 PM
MickMick, I might have missed it but no one in this thread said they expect the guards to carry this team next year. They don't need to. Also, Bouldin would only need to get .7 more steals a game to have the same number Raivio did last year. That wouldn't be THAT big an improvement from a freshman to a sophomore in GU's system. Raivio was a good defender. Bouldin was about as good defensively though in his freshman year as Raivio was in his senior year! You're right to talk about him still needing to reach potential, but he's already shown alot of umph. No arguments here about Pargo, he needs to work on his consistency.

zagscardsfan4
04-19-2007, 01:11 PM
I agree cdc that theo for me is the x-factor. If he can develope into a dominating 5 man with scoring on one end and the ability to change shots on the other. It was obvious last year josh loved to roam the perimeter even though we asked him to be a 5. If we can get a good 5man who can score like theo or an improved kuso, then that just adds to the difficult task of opposing squads. I just dont see a lot of 4 men for other teams with the ability to get out on someone like josh. Along with a solid 5 man it opens our perimeter up immensly. Raivio will be watchin zags games this year and be jealous of the open looks we should be able to get this year. Its going to be a fun fun year and i wish i could fast forward to the thanksgiving to get this season started

mnzag24
04-19-2007, 01:40 PM
from what i've seen so far, theo seems more like a 4 than i five. i've played a few pick-up games with him in the rec center and hes got a good perimeter shot and is quick and athletic off the dribble. i don't see him playing the 5. i think kuso will play the 5 at first and then we might see sacre take over (like batista did with mallon, although i realize mallon wasn't at the 5).

brasszag
04-19-2007, 01:51 PM
Maybe it was just me, but looking back Pargo seemed to have been affected the most in gameplay by the midesason distractions.

He was rapidly progressing into a devastating offensive force, and then sort of started backing off from what I saw.

Less slashes to the hoop for dunks, less spin moves that juked the defenders out of their shorts as the season went on.

Maybe some minor conditioning issues over the course of his first season with heavy minutes as well...

Or was that me seeing something that wasn't there.

Thomas_Sutpen
04-19-2007, 02:33 PM
Maybe it was just me, but looking back Pargo seemed to have been affected the most in gameplay by the midesason distractions.

He was rapidly progressing into a devastating offensive force, and then sort of started backing off from what I saw.

Less slashes to the hoop for dunks, less spin moves that juked the defenders out of their shorts as the season went on.

Maybe some minor conditioning issues over the course of his first season with heavy minutes as well...

Or was that me seeing something that wasn't there.

I think the thigh bruise Pargo suffered late in the season was more serious and affected his play more than originally reported.

Next year's team depends on JH's consistency and Theo/Sacre stepping up big time. I wasn't all that impressed with JH's ability to help on D last year--something for him to work on in the offseason.

We've got guards--we need consistent interior D.

-----------

CDC84
04-19-2007, 03:24 PM
from what i've seen so far, theo seems more like a 4 than i five. i've played a few pick-up games with him in the rec center and hes got a good perimeter shot and is quick and athletic off the dribble. i don't see him playing the 5. i think kuso will play the 5 at first and then we might see sacre take over (like batista did with mallon, although i realize mallon wasn't at the 5).

I generally agree with this assessment. Foster and Sacre are more traditional 5 men. But I still feel Theo resembles a 5 man more than Josh does, and that he is likely to give you more traditional low post offense than Kuso, Sacre or Foster next season. Those guys have skill packages that need more development. I mean, Kuso can dunk everything in sight and is great on the offensive boards, but you just can't throw the ball into him for offense with a quality big man defender on his back.

I am optimistic about Foster or Sacre emerging into really good 5 men come 2008/09, but in the mean time, Gonzaga needs someone else to step it up in the low blocks. Or maybe Sacre and Foster will develop sooner than expected. We'll see. All I know is that if Gonzaga is to achieve at a super duper high level next season, they need someone to provide some low post scoring besides Josh.

ZagDaddy
04-19-2007, 04:38 PM
This next year's team is potentially incredibly exciting but more than perhaps any team in the last few years there are more wild cards than ever before. Much of the talent is going to be young talent and because of it I expect it to be a real roller coaster of a year. At times they'll look brilliant and probably better than they are and at others they will look worse than they are. To be honest, I'm not banking on a lot from them, but the following year I'm going to be hard to contain.

Because they are going to be young and relatively inexperienced, I've got a gut feeling that this team is going to hinge largely on Ira. I just have a feeling that he will be a stabilizing force and give the young guys more confidence when they have their big brother on the floor with them. I think he will be the player we will be mentioning as having the biggest influence during the year.

(There I did it! A whole post without mentioning the word defense. DANG! Well , I tried...:o )

Gonzdb8
04-19-2007, 04:40 PM
although i haven't seen much of theo, based on what i have i'd agree with cdc that he's much closer to a 5 than jh. looking forward to getting a better look at his skill set.
as for defense, i've got a question for those who know much more about these things than i do. It seems our perimeter D has been a concern for many, many years. this suggests it isn't necessarily a personnel problem, or something that can be solved by different personnel (as suggested in posts above) but maybe a defensive philosphy/coaching issue. we've had players over the years that i would have expected could play lock down perimeter d, but they didn't. any insight?

LongIslandZagFan
04-19-2007, 05:21 PM
although i haven't seen much of theo, based on what i have i'd agree with cdc that he's much closer to a 5 than jh. looking forward to getting a better look at his skill set.
as for defense, i've got a question for those who know much more about these things than i do. It seems our perimeter D has been a concern for many, many years. this suggests it isn't necessarily a personnel problem, or something that can be solved by different personnel (as suggested in posts above) but maybe a defensive philosphy/coaching issue. we've had players over the years that i would have expected could play lock down perimeter d, but they didn't. any insight?

IMHO perimeter D is as much or more about desire and effort than actual skill. I think have a defensive minded coach like Ray coming in may help. Speed don't hurt none either.

BobZag
04-19-2007, 05:26 PM
although i haven't seen much of theo, based on what i have i'd agree with cdc that he's much closer to a 5 than jh. looking forward to getting a better look at his skill set.
as for defense, i've got a question for those who know much more about these things than i do. It seems our perimeter D has been a concern for many, many years. this suggests it isn't necessarily a personnel problem, or something that can be solved by different personnel (as suggested in posts above) but maybe a defensive philosphy/coaching issue. we've had players over the years that i would have expected could play lock down perimeter d, but they didn't. any insight?

Grier to San Diego.
Giacoletti to Gonzaga.

;)

BobZag
04-19-2007, 05:30 PM
but the following year I'm going to be hard to contain.

Ditto ditto and double ditto, ZagDaddy. :agreed:

J-Mac Zag Forever
04-19-2007, 06:01 PM
Who can come the closest with the starting five and the other players positions. Things will change throughout the season so the game will have end after the start of the first game of the new season.

Could be a Judge if someone wants to be declared the winner. Prize could be a plasma tv provided by the Moderator (Bob Zag). If not the tv maybe a Spike Booble Head or 5 stars by all your posts for a month.

5-Kuso/Sacre/Foster Sacre needs quality min in
the event Josh goes pro his senior year.
Remember this Kuso's last year.

4-Josh/Daye/Brown

3-Pendo/Downs

2-Bouldin/Daye Provides breathers for Pargo and
Bouldin moves to point. Downs or Daye
can help bring up the ball.
1-Pargo

Lock Down Defender-Larry Gurganious

Starting line up: Kuso,Josh,Pendo,Bouldin and Pargo

Boy did I mess this up.

RebornZag
04-19-2007, 08:21 PM
I would start with someone who can defend the low block very well. When you are talking about teams going to the NCAA tournament, and teams that will advance you are talking about teams with excellent shooters and good low post players. This is why Indiana gave us fits. If you need to double down low then you will be giving up the 3 ball and praying that the guards are missing them the way UNC did at the beginning of the season last year.
This is where Josh MUST improve. His low post defense was NOT good last year. And I'm talking about the fundamentals. If you don't think defense takes fundamentals you are dead wrong. And if coaches DON'T work on them then they WILL lose in the tournament. It's one of the main problems with the WCC in my opinion. It has poor post players in general, and especially the one's like Sam Han, and look how he killed us last year and he really wasn't all THAT good.

2nd we need a #4, the other post defensive player, who can play defense and guard the opponent's 4. To defend the four takes muscle and speed and a desire to rebound. Someone like Pendo. The only problem with Pendo is his size, and the further you advance in the Tournament, the bigger, stronger athletic 4's we would face. The 4 must be able to defend against very athletic players. Players who can shoot and penetrate and create. And bang the boards. They are athletic like Errol Knight only 2 inches taller. We know Pendo will play the 4 and in WCC he will be adequate. But in my honest opinion a four with his body can not get us deep into the tournament. I haven't seen Davis play, but he has the right height but needs to put on 20 pounds. Will he? I think, from what I've read about him he has the right kind of attitude (a little mean) and is athletic (has hops), and can actually play the game.

At the 3 I really like Micah Downs. Unfortunately we never got the best of Downs last year. Micah showed good defense and rebounding. I saw a toughness in him that I didn't expect. I like that about him. I also see a fearlessness that I think this team needs. I think Downs is the kind of 3 that can take us deep into the tournament.

I feel the same about Pargo. He's an excellent point guard and an excellent defender. He's a great bbplayer, and like Downs he can lead us deeper.

Most of you know my concerns about Bouldin. I am glad to hear that he is putting on muscle because it will help him defensively, where he was very very weak. Contrary to what some think, he is a super point guard, and a superb passer...much like Stepp was. Matt sees the whole court and does know whats going on. His passing mistakes were mistakes in judgement of speed. He saw holes, but underrated the speed at the college level. If he gets faster (by putting on muscle) he will be able to play at a faster pace. He is also an excellent offensive player, and will be able to score points. My question is, will he be able to defend? If the two's can penetrate on us at will because of their quickness, we are sunk defensively, and Few will revert to the Zone and opponents will begin to drain 3's. Please remember, Defense, like offense, is a team piece of work and some of you think that toughness and grit is all you need to play defense. You may be right if you are thinking about playing in the WCC. Don't need a whole lot of defense in that conference. But I'm talking about the kind of defense that can make a stop when it's needed at the end of a game, against the best teams in the country and against the toughest teams in the country. And, that has to do with team concepts, and yes...toughness. I truly do not think WSU has better athletes than we do. They have better defensive coaches...period....The coaching at WSU has made these guys excellent defensive players because they do play d as a team.

Here is my take on why we saw Pargo's numbers drop in the later part of the season. To me it was simple. Josh was gone, and we had no post players who were an offensive threat. When Josh was there, teams had to defend him, and because he COULD SHOOT FROM THE OUTSIDE, defenders who would normally like to play in the middle of the defense had to go out and defend him. This left the middle far more open for a super penetrator like Pargo to attack and score. With Josh back we will see Pargo score once more, and see all those creative moves he has inside. He couldn't do anything after Josh was put on probation.

I think that Daye and Sacre are gold mines waiting to be discovered. They both come from very athletic families whose parents were winners. These guys will definately help believe me. From what I see they both have good knowledge of defense and understand it's importance. I like that about both of them. Daye not only scores, it seems at will, but he's a shot blocker and a rebounder. He's 6'10" man. And he looks like he has a pretty good wing span to me. I am really anxious to see him play. And I think that Gray is going to be a very good back up guard. He too can play D.

I think the highlight of last year for me was the Stanford game. Stanford was on a roll. They had beaten Virginia at Virginia, had just beaten UCLA and were the talk of the country for a week or two until GU knocked them off. I thought Josh and Pargo played great games. That game, to me, is a good sign of our potential. Downs will be better than Raivio. It's not a put down on Derek, it's a compliment to Downs. He has an ability to create shots that Derek did not have, and every team needs one who can...believe me.

And finally, what every team has that does advance, is team chemistry. And it's such an important thing. Most Zag teams have had it. And a lot of it. But, imo (and it may upset some of you) we DID NOT have it last year, and in the end it was what unravelled us. I think we will have it next year. And I think it's going to be VERY, VERY STRONG. I see us vastly improving in this area. And that excites me. I think we now have the tools to make runs deeper. What remains is teaching the players how to use these tools AS A TEAM. What stands out to me about Florida was the chemistry those guys had. They were awesome to watch.

Northspokane
04-19-2007, 08:30 PM
wow BZ ripping on Grier like that the minute he leaves...? Then hail Ray even though he hasnt done a thing at GU. GOOD FOR YOU :D

azzagfan
04-19-2007, 08:42 PM
I think the starting 5 will be: 1) Pargo 2) Bouldin 3) Downs 4) Heytvelt 5) Kuso with the first few off the bench Pendo, Davis, Gurganious, Daye. I love Pendo, but I could see him being by the end of the season a guy who is an energy guy off the bench as a leader not getting many minutes (a 6'5" post player on a team with this size is difficult no matter what a physically strong, great hustler he is, also my concern for Ira Brown). He'll keep the young guys focused, but there will be a lot of horses competing for playing time.

Zag79
04-20-2007, 12:35 AM
As far as matt vs drav--we were talking about stopping other teams from shooting so well from 3pt range, not who will get more steals

oh come on you knew it was coming... ;) bouldins d left a heck of alot to be desired. comparing his d to raivios is almost comical at this point. his foot speed on D reminds me of stepp. anyway, bouldin or raivio isnt the answer on D, ray is IMO. how many years can you blame DIFFERENT players for 3 pt defense or lack thereof? after 7 years of the same thing you gotta look at the coaches. im excited about the upcoming seasons team and d included, i think ray will bring some great things to the table. A+ for BZs post.

gamagin
04-20-2007, 06:55 AM
that sees the zags at least one point ahead of the opposition at the end of each and every game in which victory is critical to advancement.

VaBeachZAG
04-20-2007, 07:01 AM
I have one concern that I have not seen developed in this thread. In my opinion, we don't have many offensive role players on the incoming team (Pendo, Kuso, Foster, and to a lesser extent, Sacre). Everyone else has superstar offensive reputations (certainly well deserved). Not every offensive superstar can pour in 20+ points per game. The thing that deeply concerns me is the ability of this team to function as a well oiled offensive juggernaut - this will require many of the offensive superstars to refrain from pulling the trigger too soon (i.e., we will need to observe the proverbial "pass up a good shot for a great one" philosophy). Given the team's makeup, I think this is a major coaching challenge for the new year. I know we can be great, but the offensive roles and teamwork must be worked out. That, together with the improved defense everyone is looking/hoping for, will get us there. It is easy to poo poo this concern, but I think it is a real one. Hopefully we will never see evidence of it in the new season because the coaches will have already have gotten it worked out!

sonuvazag
04-20-2007, 07:08 AM
I love Pendo, but I could see him being by the end of the season a guy who is an energy guy off the bench as a leader not getting many minutes (a 6'5" post player on a team with this size is difficult no matter what a physically strong, great hustler he is, also my concern for Ira Brown).

Pendo for president... seriously, is Pendo a post?

Rubbadub
04-20-2007, 08:39 AM
bouldins d left a heck of alot to be desired. comparing his d to raivios is almost comical at this point.

Well that sentiment is very unlike you 79. I'm surprised. ;) Were've you been at? It's been awhile hasn't it?

Zag79
04-20-2007, 12:46 PM
leave it to an old dog to catch on rub... ;) been remodeling the house so my posting is taking a hit. but speaking of pendo, im not so sure he ends up on the bench being only a verbal leader. if he keeps hitting at the clip he did last season but with more shot attempts he may be one of our top scorers.

former1dog
04-20-2007, 01:43 PM
Elwood: It's a 106 miles to Chicago. We got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing sunglasses.
Jake: Hit it!

:D Sorry, first thing I thought of when I saw the thread topic.

jpwils
04-20-2007, 01:52 PM
Because we have such solid starters and backups, we will make a deep
run next year -possibly final four or better.

Theo is the key in my opinion.

If JH is moved to PF, there still will be times when both Theo and JH are in the game. Both players alter opposing teams' shots or are a threat to block a shot!. If Wil or Sacre come along at all next year, we will have loads
of fouls to give away and can look to start a break with a blocked shot occasionally- a plus four point opportunity in transition.

Bouldin showed flashes, especially in the Carolina game.

Pargo had stretches of solid play, and should dominate in WCC play.

Downs is also one player with All American potential. He will be pushed by Pendo , who also showed flashed of solid shooting ability in "pick and pop"
situations.

Kuso also seemed to be coming along in the defensive and shot blocking arenas.

I wonder if Gray will contend immediately for minutes because of his pure scoring ability.

Turnovers and 3 point shot defense concern me....how is LG's rehab coming
along??

Sacre versus Foster? Nice choice to have! BOTH figure to play roles IMHO.

I don't see immediately where Brown would play, but I'm sure he must have a niche or we wouldn't have burnt a schollie on him.

Bobzag, any new under the radar hints at recruits for following season?

D Hark 2003
04-20-2007, 02:47 PM
WOW zag79 clownin bouldin's defense... that is comical, c'mon you know better than that. How can Bouldin be blamed for that. Im sorry but a good defensive team starts down low. The last two years we have been thin down low and our bigs get into foul trouble so the guards suck into the key and try to soak up some obvious fouls, and our bigs have just had trouble defending the low block and keeping the other team off the offensive glass. You cant blame the guards last year for their defense when they are constantly trying to help pendo, downs, and Mallon guard superior interior players... They suck down into the middle to help and then a kick out pass is made to a wide open shooter. I dont understand why you think that is the fault of the guards. What is a higher percentage shot? A three pointer or a dunk over mallon and a foul? Obviously few's strategy has been we can score, and we are weak inside, so stop the other teams inside post game and take the chance that they will miss more 3s than we will... I dont see that as Bouldin's inability to defend the 3.

azzagfan
04-21-2007, 08:23 AM
Pendo for president... seriously, is Pendo a post?

He's not a 1,2, or 3, so I'd say he's a 4 and he ended up playing 5 in some situations last year. Don't get me wrong, I love Pendo, he's the kind of guy that defines who GU is, but if other guys get rolling this season (and we can only hope that happens), minutes may be slim. I think he'll play every game, I just don't think it will be 25-30 minutes down the stretch.

BobZag
04-21-2007, 10:37 AM
Pargo
Bouldin
Downs
Heytvelt
?

I'd like to see Pendo be first off the bench providing instant offense and energy. But there is going to be some major practice battles for that fifth spot.

roxdoc
04-21-2007, 11:23 AM
So many good men - so few spots!!! Ah the luxury of it!!

MickMick
04-21-2007, 11:56 AM
leave it to an old dog to catch on rub... ;) been remodeling the house so my posting is taking a hit. but speaking of pendo, im not so sure he ends up on the bench being only a verbal leader. if he keeps hitting at the clip he did last season but with more shot attempts he may be one of our top scorers.

I keep hearing of these potential surpise players like Brown, etc. Right under our noses we have a player that is coachable to a flaw, but has as much potential to surprise as any of the newcomers. He accepts being a role player and we are all conditioned to believe he will never be more. Give Pendo the green light Few! Design a couple game winning plays for him. At the end of regulation, you will never see me complain if Pendo takes the shot. I know he would only be a "catch n shoot" type guy, but isn't that what the POY (Reddik) was last year? And yes...I know he would get stuffed if he took the shot from the post. But how many guards would have trouble switching off to his size at the perimeter?

Nevtelen
04-21-2007, 12:30 PM
I think Pendo will be our 6th man off the bench this year, much like last, but he showed in no uncertain terms what he's capable of this past year. I'm sure he'll be getting his share of time at the 3 and maybe 2 and (less likely) at the 4.