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J-Mac Zag Forever
04-17-2007, 07:36 PM
He is showing me what a true Zag is all about. He has seen his name frequently on ESPN, sports mags, on campus and in this forum. Yet he takes his medicine, continues to go to class and work out. He does this with the knowledge of what next year will bring both on and off the court. He does this knowing the media attention he will get every time he steps on the floor. I read where some feel Josh got off lightly. I do not believe all those hours of community service are getting off lightly. I do not believe having your name blasted over and over on TV every night is getting off easily. Having to face your teammates knowing what you did to them was not easy. Facing your classmates, the fans and all your peers was not and is not going to be easy. SEEING YOUR NAME COME UP IN THIS FORUM IN A NEGATIVE WAY IS NOT GETTING OFF EASY. It would be so much easier to find another school where he would be appreciated but he stands tall as a ZAG.

The book, Tales From the Gonzaga Hardwood, contain these quotes: “The coaching staff knew that the class of “94 was a collection of rascals and partiers. Later a quote from Don Monson. “The thing about that group is I don’t know if they knew where the line was, but they sure knew how to cover up the line. You knew they were crossing the line, but it never got to your desk”. We celebrate them and condemn Josh. The difference, this crossed Coach Few’s desk. I will grant you the crossing was huge. Think back when you were his age, could you throw the first stone. Maybe, what you did just didn’t cross the coach’s desk.

I trust Coach Few. I trust the athletic Dept. I trust the Administration. I trust the Jesuit’s. They know Josh, what’s best for the Zags and the University. As a fan that is good enough for me. I would hope that everyone could stop throwing stones and accept that they will do what is right for Josh and the Zags.

If he can stand tall and fly right we can forgive, support and silence the rest.
Love your play Josh. I for one want some more stare downs.

ZagNative
04-17-2007, 07:54 PM
Bravo, J-Mac! I agree wholeheartedly, except that I can do without the stare downs.

Unbiased
04-17-2007, 08:00 PM
I concur completely - well stated.

EL MUSTACIO
04-17-2007, 08:19 PM
Unbiased, you are very biased!

jake
04-17-2007, 09:27 PM
Don't take this the wrong way, but I wouldn't say I have a lot of respect for Josh, not at this point at least. I'm happy he's going to class, sticking with the team in the face of adversity, behaving himself etc., but what he's facing is a result of his actions. I respect that this is extremely difficult for him and he deserves credit for the way he's acted in the last couple of months, but it takes a longer time frame for me to earn "a lot of respect".

RenoZag
04-17-2007, 09:54 PM
J-Mac,

If Josh plays basketball with as much passion as your post above conveys, he'll get his props for his on-court performance.

If Josh applies the same energy and focus to earning the good graces of his teammates, fellow students, and those affected by his community service, then well earned respect could also follow.

He has the opportunity to write one heck of a second act in the months ahead. I hope its a story of redemption, of the restorative powers of forgiveness, and of wisdom gained via adversity. It would be an incredible story, like something out of a Frank Capra film.

upan8th
04-17-2007, 11:11 PM
It's not all about the bust. Most people on this board remember games in Nov/Dec '06 when Josh just "disappeared"; games in which a mysterious transgression-or maybe not-when a lack of hustle, an emotional response in the flow of play warranted banishment to the bench after several quick, unnecessary fouls. A troubling lack of team concept was noted. When Josh got the ball, it would rarely, if ever, lead to an assist for a score. Josh was causing Mark Few headaches long before the shroom incident. I'm not sure, reflecting on his '06 play, that Josh will ever be able to blend his extraordinary athletic/narcissistic skills to the GU concept of team play. I am sure that he will have a rewarding career as a pro, whether in the US or abroad, down the road.

VaBeachZAG
04-18-2007, 04:15 AM
Respect is not a presumptive right, it must be earned. Given the outrageous behavior in Josh's case, a few weeks of class attendance after the fact (and presumably some community service, although I have no idea what this service might be, or if it is being performed) in no way translates into respect. Let's see how Josh has progressed in a year, then an honest and unbiased assessment/opinion can be made as to whether resepect has been earned/deserved. Some things I give freely: a smile, a kind word, a helping hand, etc. What I don't freely give is respect - it must be earned!

gonstu
04-18-2007, 04:39 AM
When I read the first post in this thread I was wondering what the responses would look like, as I wasn't in complete agreement.

I agree with VaBeach Zag in that respect is something that has to be earned. For me, there are different ways someone can lose the respect of others. Given the magnitude of Josh's actions, for me it will take much more than just staying on the team and going to classes. Having said that, I do think (or maybe it's just hope) that I will respect Josh by the end of next year.

Let's also remember that respect is a complex concept and every one of us probably defines it a little differently.

applezag
04-18-2007, 05:13 AM
I have to disagree at this point. What did we expect Josh to do? Run home to Clarkston and disappear? I do not find it courageous to continue to go to class and work on his game--as should be the minimal expectation of a full-scholarship player. There are people at GU who do all that and pay their way through school. When he demonstrates the character, values, passion, and committment that have come to be a trademark of Gonzaga basketball and make me proud to be a Zag alum, then I will sing his praises. He has proved very little to me to this point. You won't find me ripping him at every turn, but I am not going to praise him for enjoying his all-expense paid trip through college. I just don't see what other alternative he chose his present course over that makes him so exemplary. I have high hopes that Josh's story, as Few said, will have a happy ending. But he has come nowhere close to showing me anything yet.

ZagMan in Philly
04-18-2007, 06:56 AM
Josh is going to be all right. He has learned his mistake and will move forward with his life. He deserves a second chance as we all do.

A story like this one below, tells me there are good happy endings:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/al/devilrays/2006-06-06-hamilton-cover_x.htm

Hamilton made his first start last night as the center fielder for the Reds.

Russell Bevan
04-18-2007, 07:12 AM
J-Mac,

Please don't take this post personally, I admire the fact that you are so forgiving and want to cut him some slack, I'm just not there yet.

All he has done so far is what the court system and school have dictated to him, he gets no credit for that. The idea that it is tough for him to see his name in the press and online and because of that we should feel sorry for him, umm no. No Way. He brought that on himself and at the same time embarrassed the school and community. When you screw up that bad you are going to have the privilege for reading about it over and over, that's just the way it goes.

I also have a hard time justifying his actions because the1994 team liked to party, that type of excuse didn't work with my father when I was a kid and it doesn't work here. You can't justify actions because others have committed similar mistakes.

As a student he should be treated like any other student in a similar situation, but as a member of the athletic department he has to follow a specific code of conduct that he committed to, let him stay at Gonzaga, but he should have to do more then just follow the court's drug rehabilitation program to get back in our good graces. All he has done so far is follow a program that keeps his record clean.

All the best,
Russell

former1dog
04-18-2007, 07:31 AM
Russell's post expresses my sentiments exactly.

zagleford
04-18-2007, 08:15 AM
i gotta disagree with j-mac. this reminds me of that chris rock bit about the guy who was so proud of himself b/c "i take care of my kids" or "i ain't never been to jail!"

he's doing what he should be doing (so he deserves our support) but, honestly, isn't this what he (and many other Zags) have been doing all along?

zagleford
04-18-2007, 08:21 AM
(ok, i guess i need to learn to reread my thoughts before posting them...but hey, i'm a new poster so plz cut me some slack...)

what i meant to say is that isn't this what he SHOULD have been doing all along...and what many former/current zag players HAVE been doing all along.

sonuvazag
04-18-2007, 09:05 AM
I've already chipped in on a previous thread my exact thoughts, but I just want to add that all I want from Josh as a fan is to keep doing what he should be doing. My judgements and respect are worth nothing. His commitment to being a good Zag will be its own reward.

thespywhozaggedme
04-18-2007, 10:35 AM
Since I can't find them, please visualize the rolling eyes and vomitting emoticons. JH is a Zag, therefore I will root for him. Respect? I'll reserve that for people like Pendo. Aim higher for role models.

kdoggy
04-18-2007, 02:56 PM
I'm not quite there, but things take time. At this point, its in Josh's hands. Be a good man, father, person, student, teammate, and friend and things turn around eventually.

I can certainly learn to respect people that come back from adversity. I am no pollyanna, but I believe in peoples abilities to redeem themselves.

DenDiegoZag
04-18-2007, 03:17 PM
It's not all about the bust. Most people on this board remember games in Nov/Dec '06 when Josh just "disappeared"; games in which a mysterious transgression-or maybe not-when a lack of hustle, an emotional response in the flow of play warranted banishment to the bench after several quick, unnecessary fouls. A troubling lack of team concept was noted.

I could not agree more...I think that his teammates and coaches are in a much better position than I to judge his "change" of character and heart, and to see the rededication he has demonstrated thus far in getting back onto the team.

BUT...I do feel that I can judge his performance when he did play last year. I was at games, and I watched others on TV...He was not performing consistently to a level that his talent would justify...He did not display the "killer instinct and focus" on the court, in games, that made guys like Turiaf, Stepp, Dickau, and Morrison (to name a few)...SPECIAL!!

A true Zag takes many forms and can show up in many roles on the court, but I think the key factor shared by ALL TRUE ZAGS is their ability to show us a game that is filled with HEART!

I wish Josh all the best, and I HOPE that next season he is able to put his heart on display night in and night out for the Faithful of Zag Nation...

MBZags
04-18-2007, 04:40 PM
I can give someone a second chance, and I will cheer very hard for Josh next year. And I do admire him for overcoming this with a positive attitude. But I can't say that I trust him. If he screws up again, he should be dismissed immediately.

VanZagar
04-18-2007, 04:48 PM
Every human being deserves a certain amount of respect. Some people earn more and others give up some of theirs. I'm a Josh guy, he's a local for me, I wish him well, and always wanted him back next year. But he's lost a lot of my respect and it may not be possible to earn it all back. Just stellar play won't be enough.

RebornZag
04-18-2007, 06:41 PM
J-Mac Zag Forever: Nice to see you post your sentiments and feelings. I pretty much feel the same way. What I was surprised by was all the negativity that remains pretty intense toward Josh a couple of months later. I don't recognize a lot of the names and I wonder if many of them (the negative ones) went to Gonzaga University, or have a clue about what the University stands for.

I respect Josh a lot. I don't know him personally, but I know many people like him, people who have made some pretty huge mistakes in their lives and find some kind of strength within themselves to change. Josh shows me that he has put this behind himself and is moving on, and is continuing to work extrememly hard to become the best he can be. It takes one hell of a lot of courage to put things behind you and make a commitment to live in the present and not the past. People will continue to try to drag Josh down, to drag him backward to the night at Cheney. I wish more people on this Board could find the kind of courage Josh has, and let this go!!! Quit trying to make this a bigger deal then it is. It's over with man....move on and get a life.

Josh screwed up...and pretty big time....So what???? What interests me is not the fact that he screwed up because I haven't met ANYONE yet who hasn't, and if all the trash came out of the closet that many hide you'd see that Josh isn't really THAT BAD. No, what interests me is what will he do next? What interests me is how he will handle all this. And I here Mark Few say that he is very happy with what he sees. That's good enough for me. Sometimes screwing up can be the best thing for a person. Maybe, and it's a mere maybe, now Josh will be able to become all he was meant to be.

I bet that more people can relate to Josh since he's screwed up then before he did. Why is that? It's because most people have screwed up themselves and have a certain empathy for someone who does something pretty stupid. Unfortunately, there are always those self-righeous judges who must dwell amongst us, and I guarentee you that they WILL NOT let this go. They will bring it up at every opportunity that they can. If Josh has a bad game, they'll just be quick to point the finger and say, "I told you so."

I think what sickens me the most about this story is that I can almost here people say something like, "I will forgive him if he has a great year in basketball next year." Or like I've seen printed, "All will be forgotten after his first slam dunk."

Zag509
04-18-2007, 06:58 PM
Since I can't find them, please visualize the rolling eyes and vomitting emoticons. JH is a Zag, therefore I will root for him. Respect? I'll reserve that for people like Pendo. Aim higher for role models.

Well said. Will i root for Josh? Yes. Will i jump up and down when he throws down a dunk? Yes. But that is out of respect and love for the name on the front of the uniform, not on the back.

BoltZag
04-18-2007, 07:00 PM
This post is about as sensationalistic as the evening news with Katie Couric. Someone get a box of Kleenex.

Outraged
04-18-2007, 08:01 PM
I respect him for doing whats dictated to him. Many don't and this is the time to do so. I hope he learned his lesson and that it is this lesson that ensures his future success. But as Russell said there is more for him to do. Its a difficult and humilitating experience to own up to ones faults and monumental mistakes in such a public arena. I support him in this challenging path and correcting these faults. The path is still in front of him and its a difficult one.

Zag79
04-18-2007, 08:55 PM
The book, Tales From the Gonzaga Hardwood, contain these quotes: “The coaching staff knew that the class of “94 was a collection of rascals and partiers. Later a quote from Don Monson. “The thing about that group is I don’t know if they knew where the line was, but they sure knew how to cover up the line. You knew they were crossing the line, but it never got to your desk”. We celebrate them and condemn Josh. The difference, this crossed Coach Few’s desk. great point with some fact behind it. some people (f1, russell, etc) want to act like josh isnt "zag material" because of the incident. that qoute above is exactly what many of us know. josh is like many, many, many zag favorites he ust got caught. it doesnt make it ok, but be real.


It's not all about the bust. Most people on this board remember games in Nov/Dec '06 when Josh just "disappeared"

like casey? casey calvary? very similar in the "look" and "style" or lack thereof at times. good guy casey was. speaking of good or favorite zags. alex hernandez, tony, dub (winston), erroll, banky, ronny ,all really good guys. wouldnt you agree? i thought you would. ;)

former1dog
04-18-2007, 09:24 PM
It is refreshing to me that your opinion and attitude about this issue is clearly in the minority, Zag79. It seems that students and alumni, young and old, serious and casual fans all understand why what Josh did was wrong and what the implications of those actions are.

You continue to miss the point and I don't think I can clarify it for you, so I won't try.

RebornZag
04-18-2007, 09:31 PM
Boltzag says, "This post is about as sensationalistic as the evening news with Katie Couric. Someone get a box of Kleenex." A truly well thought out post, I must say.........:lmao:

RebornZag
04-18-2007, 09:40 PM
former1dog says, "It is refreshing that your opinion and attitude about this issue is clearly in the minority, Zag79." We've talked about this a little in the past. Who's poll are you quoting former1dog? I would say that if you actually did research the topic that you'd probably find that '79's opinion is closer to the majority than yours. Your poll appears extremely scewed to me.

former1dog, I for one would really love to hear the "point" that '79 is missing. When I hear those words, "You have totally missed the point" I never ever hear what the point is.

former1dog
04-18-2007, 09:47 PM
former1dog, I for one would really love to hear the "point" that '79 is missing. When I hear those words, "You have totally missed the point" I never ever hear what the point is.

That Josh should take responsibilty for his own behaviour and face the consequences of his actions. Even Josh, from all indications understands this point, as do you Reborn, from the posts I've read of yours regarding this topic.

My friend, 79, consistently fails to acknowledge that Josh is not just another college kid. He's also a father who has a greater responsibilty to that child, a responsibility a lot of other college kids do not have. It seems that 79 is an apologist for Josh's behaviour and consistently excuses it on the basis that others have done the same thing and just were not caught. I am certain that the principles in this case, the judge, the prosecuting attorney found no solice in those excuses.

BTW - Zag79 and I go back on this board a few years now. I consider him a friend and I believe he holds me in the same regard. It is ok to have a difference of opinions amongst friends. I don't hold it against him and I'm guessing the feeling is mutual.

zagscardsfan4
04-18-2007, 11:37 PM
I think Josh will be just fine, hes a kid who made a bad mistake. He's stayed in class through out and really think he's cleaned up his act. In fact in class today a question was raised regaurding what everyone wanted to get from their education and he answered to get a degree and then continue in a career to make money for his family. His head is on straight and will be a great Zag in the end

ZagNative
04-19-2007, 01:04 AM
I did some knuckleheaded things as a kid. If I had done what Josh did and got caught and been subject to the kind of scrutiny and criticism he has been, in every form of national media, I'm sorry to say, but at his age I would have folded like a cheap suit. I would have been gone like a rocket and likely blown my future because I couldn't stand the shame.

Josh has my admiration for facing the consequences of his mistake and trying to get back on track, one day at a time, sometimes the most difficult thing to do.

I was trying to imagine what Coach Few is saying to Josh. I imagine it's something like this: "Okay, what's done is done. Just keep on doing what you're supposed to be doing and don't worry about what those little people out there on the internet are saying. You're still the talented, good person you ever were. Don't let other people's perceptions define you as long as you know your heart is right and you're putting one foot in front of the other each day doing the right thing."

Josh's full story has yet to be written. It's hard to see what we are contributing to a happy ending when we continue to beat on him here. Poor old J-Mac makes the mistake of posting a positive report about Josh and expresses his admiration, and a host of posters jump on board to say, "Yea? Well, he's got to show me."

Of course he'll have to show us, but I wish we wouldn't make it harder fror him than it already will be.

VaBeachZAG
04-19-2007, 05:29 AM
ZagNative: "Of course he'll have to show us, but I wish we wouldn't make it harder fror him than it already will be."

So on ZagNative's last note, can we just end this damn thread???

NJZag
04-19-2007, 10:48 AM
http://www.backingblair.co.uk/respect/respect_files/giveget.gif

Vizagra
04-19-2007, 12:26 PM
not now anyway. He may be when it is all said and done. But no way right now.