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Xin Loi 67
12-09-2009, 10:08 PM
You play sub par teams they will hurt you. That's why if you take a game like this, it's to get a chance to play tweeners. The kids, it's not there fault, it's the coaches fault putting advanced players with kids so nervous and excited they could pee on the court. Going a hundred MPH with no brakes they will hurt you. They are out of sync, they run fast but are slow to react causing stomped insteps and heels, blown up knees and collisions. Most injuries are suffered in practice because of kids trying to prove their abilities and over playing. Sometims this is interpreted as hustle when it's just over reaction. If you take a game like this, play your bench and the players you are not sure about yet. Play the kids that are just as excited as the lesser team they won't get hurt.

If you take these games as favors to your buddies then think twice about your roster and what could happen for no gain. The better players not the lesser are the ones who will get beat up.

How many times do we see it, is it worth it? I for one don't see an upside to it.

Ezag
12-09-2009, 10:17 PM
Favor or not, this game was a mistake. Kids get more out a full court scrimmage than this.

rawkmandale
12-09-2009, 10:19 PM
Xin Loi 67, although I can agree with your perspective in many cases, this wasn't one of them. Augustana was well-coached, swung the ball well, didn't crash the boards over our backs, didn't dive at our knees for losse balls, didn't set a bunch of moving screens, didn't make out-of-control blasts to the basket, didn't make wild chops at our arms, etc. They actually looked a lot like Gonzaga used to - smart play from disciplined ballplayers. Watch the tape of the (1998?) Clemson win at the Top of the World Classic to see how much Gonzaga's offense at that time looked like Augustana.

The only injury tonight (that I'm aware of) was the Bouldin head-knock. If you watched the replay, it was simply two players going two different directions through the same line. That could happen in any game, and was NOT a case of the Augustana player doing something out-of-control.

Xin Loi 67
12-09-2009, 10:42 PM
Xin Loi 67, although I can agree with your perspective in many cases, this wasn't one of them. Augustana was well-coached, swung the ball well, didn't crash the boards over our backs, didn't dive at our knees for losse balls, didn't set a bunch of moving screens, didn't make out-of-control blasts to the basket, didn't make wild chops at our arms, etc. They actually looked a lot like Gonzaga used to - smart play from disciplined ballplayers. Watch the tape of the (1998?) Clemson win at the Top of the World Classic to see how much Gonzaga's offense at that time looked like Augustana.

The only injury tonight (that I'm aware of) was the Bouldin head-knock. If you watched the replay, it was simply two players going two different directions through the same line. That could happen in any game, and was NOT a case of the Augustana player doing something out-of-control.

Bouldin was aware from the look I took the Auggie player wasn't. Didn't even no, Matt was in that space. Correct me if I'm wrong but it looked like that to me.

CanadianZagFan
12-10-2009, 04:38 AM
It looked to me like Matt faked one way then cut back, the other player was turning his head to see the ball, when he looked back Matt had changed direction and BANG!

CDC84
12-10-2009, 07:18 AM
I would rather play Augustana than NJIT. No RPI harm.

Zag4Hire
12-10-2009, 09:03 AM
You play sub par teams they will hurt you. That's why if you take a game like this, it's to get a chance to play tweeners. The kids, it's not there fault, it's the coaches fault putting advanced players with kids so nervous and excited they could pee on the court. Going a hundred MPH with no brakes they will hurt you. They are out of sync, they run fast but are slow to react causing stomped insteps and heels, blown up knees and collisions. Most injuries are suffered in practice because of kids trying to prove their abilities and over playing. Sometims this is interpreted as hustle when it's just over reaction. If you take a game like this, play your bench and the players you are not sure about yet. Play the kids that are just as excited as the lesser team they won't get hurt.

If you take these games as favors to your buddies then think twice about your roster and what could happen for no gain. The better players not the lesser are the ones who will get beat up.

How many times do we see it, is it worth it? I for one don't see an upside to it.

I am sure if you went to back a number of years to message boards (if they were around) for BCS schools, I am sure they were saying the same things about Gonzaga. Actually, I can think of a number of message boards that would probably still have posters who hold this to be true. I think it is good to get time and looks at all the players on your roster, try out some plays maybe you wouldn't ordinarily try, etc. Also you can't schedule a ton of powerhouses (I am sure there were more than a few angry threads about the schedule just a number of years back).

229SintoZag
12-10-2009, 10:12 AM
I would rather play Augustana than NJIT. No RPI harm.

True. But RPI harm is not the only harm one can encounter in scheduling.

If I were on the committee and somehow had to decide between a Zags bubble team (God forbid) and a team that scheduled legitimate, middle tier (RPI 100-200, for example) teams, say a team from the Missouri Valley Conference, I would look at this Augustana game and I'd give the nod to the team that played only legitimate, solid Division I opponents.

This should have, at most, been an exhibition game.

Matt's potential concussion is bad enough. If one of our players got legitimately hurt in this game, which everyone acknowledges does not "count" in any meaningful sense, I'd be even more perturbed.

Gonzaga should never again schedule non Division I opponents in anything other than exhibitions. Remember when we used to be able to take the high road against schools like Syracuse and UW for their OOC scheduling? Well, we can't anymore with Augustana, IPFW, Miss Valley State, Davidson, EWU and Cal Bakersfield on our schedule. These games (minus Augustana, which won't even count as a game) will more than neutralize any benefit we might derive from playing Duke, Wisconsin, Cincinnati, Wake, Memphis and Oklahoma. I would not be surprised if our OOC SOS is very mediocre indeed when all is said and done this year as a result. We can criticize UW all we want here for their cupcake home scheduling, but if you take a look at it, they have yet to play a team with a sub-200 Kenpom rating.

http://kenpom.com/team.php?team=Washington

Meanwhile, Gonzaga has already played teams with kenpom ratings of 342 (out of 347 D-1 teams) and 298, with games against currently ranked 305 and 265 still on our OOC slate. Then we get into the WCC, where we can enjoy several more sub-200 games, twice each.

Meanwhile, outside of their game against our own WCC brethren USF at 261, UW has a total of ZERO games on the rest of its schedule this year against opponents currently 200 or worse in the kenpm ratings.

There have been many years when Gonzaga could rip on UW for their scheduling, but it is turning out that this year is not likely to be one of them once things shake out. UW could well end up with a very high RPI at the end of the year and I would not be surprised to see them as a top 10 RPI team as a result. They simply have done a good job of avoiding the truly hapless (the 150+ and 200+ teams).

My personal opinion is that last night's game was embarrassing. They divide basketball up into divisions I, II and III for a reason. We saw the difference between divisions I and III last night and it wasn't pretty. Division I is not supposed to play Division III. We now know why.

My question is this: who actually enjoyed this Augustana deal and who was it good for? I kept wondering (as this game became a laugher and got so out of hand that our TV guys went off on ten minute tangents on 1970s NFL teams): are coaches Few and Ray G happy that they hijacked an opportunity for an otherwise legitimate game for the home fans and instead forced them to pretend that this game is for real? Is the Augustana coach happy to have hauled his team across the country only to be torched on the court? Did the Augustana players enjoy getting worked over? Did Gonzaga's players enjoy playing a team of non-scholarship players who are not in their league athletically?

At the end of the day, what is the point here? I don't think this game made the team any better or sharper, and if anything, the opposite may be true. The game did not help Gonzaga's positioning or resume for the postseason, either in terms of getting into the tournament should they fall in the WCC tournament or in terms of seeding; if anything, this game will hurt when the committee looks into it and sees that Gonzaga scheduled a D-III team. This certainly was no "treat" for the students or the home fans, who got to see a total laugher rather than a real competitive game. The game was so bad even Gonzaga's laughably-homer TV announcers couldn't even stay focused on it. The only benefit to anyone, as far as I can see, is the payout to Augustana. And that irks me to no end, because those dollars are coming from the money that loyal Gonzaga fans pay with a reasonable expectation that they are getting a quality product. Which, last night, they weren't.

1973Zag
12-10-2009, 10:28 AM
Do you really think scheduling a breather between Mich. state,Maui,WashST.,Wake,Duke,IL,Ok. is really going to kill us with the selection committee? Would it have helped to fill in a 300+RPI Div.1 team. God help us if it comes down to that

cjm720
12-10-2009, 10:33 AM
I loved this game. It's a confidence booster for all our subs. Who cares about RPI at this point in the season...the chances of this biting us in the arse are very slim.

gamagin
12-10-2009, 11:14 AM
http://guboards.spokesmanreview.com/showthread.php?p=496643#post496643

some of the logic around this choice of opponents.

Go TEAM Zags !

229SintoZag
12-10-2009, 11:33 AM
Do you really think scheduling a breather between Mich. state,Maui,WashST.,Wake,Duke,IL,Ok. is really going to kill us with the selection committee? Would it have helped to fill in a 300+RPI Div.1 team. God help us if it comes down to that

No that would not have helped. But it would have helped to schedule, say, a RPI 100-200 type team, for example. Still a "breather," but one that might be helpful.

MedZag
12-10-2009, 11:36 AM
We are who we thought we were!

seasontixholder
12-10-2009, 11:40 AM
Schedule tough opponents for every game at this particular time of the year. I think not. The Zag starters were on fumes last night. The young guys got some minutes.

My only unhappiness is that the point guards barely looked at the bigs, let alone passed to them. Sacre and Harris should pick those twerps up a foot off the ground and knock their heads.

rijman
12-10-2009, 12:18 PM
At the end of the day, what is the point here? I don't think this game made the team any better or sharper, and if anything, the opposite may be true. The game did not help Gonzaga's positioning or resume for the postseason, either in terms of getting into the tournament should they fall in the WCC tournament or in terms of seeding; if anything, this game will hurt when the committee looks into it and sees that Gonzaga scheduled a D-III team. This certainly was no "treat" for the students or the home fans, who got to see a total laugher rather than a real competitive game. The game was so bad even Gonzaga's laughably-homer TV announcers couldn't even stay focused on it. The only benefit to anyone, as far as I can see, is the payout to Augustana. And that irks me to no end, because those dollars are coming from the money that loyal Gonzaga fans pay with a reasonable expectation that they are getting a quality product. Which, last night, they weren't.

Rather than have a week off between WF and Davidson the Zags got a game to keep them in shape, but more importantly got 118 minutes of PT for the bench players. A scrimmage is not the same is a real game with packed stands. The real benefit to the game for the Zags was developing their bench in a real game situation, which will pay dividends down the road.

We can hope and pray than no Zags get injured this season, last night showed us how quickly we can lose a player, but Few and his staff have to do more than hope, they have to be ready to fill any spot should someone go down. Recent Zag history on just our bigs alone with Sacre and Heytvelt shows us injuries are common and bench players need to be developed to step in when called upon.

We can discuss the caliber of the "cupcake," but in the end the game achieved it's purpose for the Zags, bench PT to develop players, and for Augustana, money and experience, which are the main purposes of the "cupcake" matchup.

titopoet
12-10-2009, 01:51 PM
There have been many years when Gonzaga could rip on UW for their scheduling, but it is turning out that this year is not likely to be one of them once things shake out. UW could well end up with a very high RPI at the end of the year and I would not be surprised to see them as a top 10 RPI team as a result. They simply have done a good job of avoiding the truly hapless (the 150+ and 200+ teams).


229SintoZag, I think you makes some valid points. Some agree with and others I disagree with, like the one quoted above. I think scheduling is an art. I do see why Few would have the Auggies last night. He want to do a favor for his friend, the Auggies coach. GU just went through a brutal portion of the schedule, and he did know (nor anyone else knew) where the Zags would be now. They could be 3-5 heading into the game and needing some confidence. The fact the are 7-2 and in the top twenty five is gravy, and surprising. (Not for me, I have them 28-3 for the season and I had them like that at the beginning)

KenPom is really unreliable right now, and even Ken says it is too early for his stats. I know Texas Tech is surprising right now, but where will they be at the end. They will be in 9-12 range in the big-12 (I think UTEP will expose Tech on Jan 3, go Miners) Belmont is have a great run and winning some road games, which helps UW RPI, but looking at the two schedules, can anyone say that UW not hiding and GU is just cupcake city? I think not. UW is playing mostly home games against smaller schools. GU is playing tough teams on neutral and road games. Switch them and GU would be undefeated and UW would be 3-6 (With a few blow out through in)

UW is going to their most grueling part of the season, Hoyas, A&M, and Portland, all who have the bigs to expose them. Two of those games are at home, but it is not really hard to imagine them being 0-3 in those games. If the Pac-10 continues to slide, then Cal won't be number ten and UW will be fighting for the NIT.

Angelo Roncalli
12-10-2009, 01:55 PM
During the radio pre-game show, Hudson interviewed the Augustana coach. He said that Gonzaga was looking for a game on this specific date and had been unable to get any favorable responses from D-1 teams despite considerable efforts. Desperate to get the game booked last spring, he was called by the GU people and the deal was done.

GoZags
12-10-2009, 02:01 PM
During the radio pre-game show, Hudson interviewed the Augustana coach. He said that Gonzaga was looking for a game on this specific date and had been unable to get any favorable responses from D-1 teams despite considerable efforts. Desperate to get the game booked last spring, he was called by the GU people and the deal was done.

That's exactly what Few said on KJR at 1pm today -- GU needed a game on Dec. 9 and searched high and low -- they needed a home game that day. Only when they couldn't get a game -- did Augustana get approached. Scheduling isn't easy -- and it was believed that the team needed a game this week.

UberZagFan
12-10-2009, 02:50 PM
No that would not have helped. But it would have helped to schedule, say, a RPI 100-200 type team, for example. Still a "breather," but one that might be helpful.

They already got that game scheduled: It's called the Battle in Seattle.

A lot of the responses to 229's points can basically be solved by making that game an exhibition game. Uber agrees that in no way should GU be playing DIII schools in December no matter the reason.

And for everyone who just falls for the "it was the only team available" or "scheduling is difficult" argument is letting them off easy. EWU was available last night and in fact, plays a similar week to GU--12/5 and 12/12. They could have filled the 12/9 date and GU could have found someone else for the 12/28 date. Or any other myriad of possibilities lurking out there with 347 DI schools.

To top it off: we paid them for that?