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View Full Version : Question for the armchair coaches concerning Sacre



CDC84
12-08-2009, 10:25 AM
Malastein addressed this issue in a previous post, so I have to give him credit.....

In the last couple of games, opposing big men are clearly pushing Sacre away from the hoop and begging him to shoot from a distance.

The Zags need to figure out a way to get Sacre more easy looks at the basket. Hopefully in the future Rob will work hard in the offseason to better his 10-12 jump shot, but right now, it's not reliable.

It's important that he get those easy looks without aggressively backing down his defender, which can lead to offensive fouls.

What kinds of things can GU do on offense to get Rob more looks like he got in the first 6 games of the season?

Pleasant Peninsula
12-08-2009, 10:50 AM
Three words:

Free Elias Harris.

If teams are packing it in down low on defense, expanding a lot of energy and bodies into making sure Sacre can't get position, then feed Harris the ball in the 12-15 ft area and have him slash. A couple of dunks, and/or fouls later, and they'll have to adjust, and then Sacre will be able to get solid position, and when he catches the ball in the right position, it's almost a certainty that he can get a high percentage shot.

vandalzag
12-08-2009, 11:06 AM
They should run more Hi-Low sets. However I do not know if that is a strength of Harris, may have to go with KO at the Hi post. Also comes from the lack of timely post entry pass. Since teams sag off of Goodson, the man guarding Sacre does not even have to consider fronting or ball denial. Sacre may stand a better chance at posting weakside, holding his position and waiting for the ball to reverse. Running the offense directly to the post, will have to take a back seat as long as Goodson is on the floor, if they have Arop or Kong on the wing and have Bouldin at the point, it should allow for better spacing on the entry pass since they will have to respect the shot on the wing.

229SintoZag
12-08-2009, 11:11 AM
Why won't playing the classic high-low work? We seem to have the personnel to do this as well or better than we had when Batista was playing.

In addition to that idea, we need entry passes to come from others than Meech and Matt. As some have pointed out, with the lack of any offense from Meech defenders are sagging off of him, making any entry passes from him harder to get through to Rob. This has resulted in a few steals and turnovers (the same has happened coming from Gray to a lesser extent).

Coming out of timeouts, I'd like to see some backdoor plays or setups for alleyoops like we used to run for Josh be run for Rob as well. I see no reason that won't work.

But the more fundamental question is why is Rob, with his height, size, and strength, letting himself get pushed out like this to begin with? Nobody should be pushing Rob around. He needs to learn how to obtain and establish position down low without fouling. Let him watch some tape of Batista if need be.

UberZagFan
12-08-2009, 11:13 AM
Harris does help a lot in distracting attention away from Sacre but there has to be more to it. One thing is the entry pass--where it comes from and where it came from there--if that makes sense. It's easier for a defender to spend some effort in pushing a post off the block when the post is predictable in setting up and the entry pass is predictable (top to wing to post). Maybe mixing up the entry pass--instead of giving up on it after the wing sees Sacre too far out. Uber noticed that despite KO's limited post abilities (thanks Mal for pointing that out) he has looked pretty good at passing out of the hi-post. Trying a little hi-lo with KO and Sacre might help positioning if the ball goes wing first then high then low.

bballbeachbum
12-08-2009, 11:15 AM
here's a couple things maybe, top of my head, simple ideas

1. what Peninsula said; work the other post

2. have RS set up in the post weak side, swing the ball on the perimeter to his side, and kick it in to him; seen us do this already

3. if not there, swing the ball from one side to the other, and as the D slides, RS slides from one post to the other working to improve his position to get closer to the basket all the time, burying his feet, working against a sliding D (Pete Newell's Big Man Moves is still the book on how to do these things imho, for all of you interested; you can get it online); we don't do this that I've seen (could be wrong), takes patience, and all 5 have to be clicking to make it happen

3. RS needs to pivot strong, ball overhaed, when he receives the ball in the post when doubled, and look to pass the ball to the weakside, probably the wing area, but a strong-with-the-ball pivot and overhead pass to the weakside somewhere is usually available and opens up a double teaming D; it may tale another pass or two out of that to get the open look, but RS has to light the candle and thus slow the double team

3A. the weakside receivers of the RS pass get to face the sliding defense and make decisions, and have to be ready to exploit it w/ another pass, the bounce, a shot...whatever depending. they make the D pay for doubling RS, and the D will change, or at least be less aggressive


this stuff is fun to think about :) stupid ideas? let me know!

cjm720
12-08-2009, 11:35 AM
Very simple solution: Stay out of foul trouble.

With Sacre and Harris on the court we will dominate most teams.

Go Zags!!

bballbeachbum
12-08-2009, 11:41 AM
hi low, excellent! with KO, sounds perfect...and RS needs to want the ball when his number is called...demand it they say, demand the ball; that is a big part of it, just gives confidence to all. And eliminate forcing the entry pass into the post, if it's not there then move the basketball and let's move the defense to get better options; that will also help RS a lot in setting a better rhythm...don't give it to him when he's not open

john montana
12-08-2009, 11:44 AM
One thing I don't see us do much is screen, small to big, to get Rob on the block. Obviously that gives us the additional benefit of getting a shooter open or forcing a mismatch.

sonuvazag
12-08-2009, 11:46 AM
my first thought was perimeter ball reversals. and if teams double down on the post entry, hit open shots.

bballbeachbum
12-08-2009, 12:07 PM
I like all of your ideas...excellent.

Gonzaga on three...

ready...

1-2-3

GONZAGA!!!

229SintoZag
12-08-2009, 12:16 PM
Get Kong, Matty, and others (Gray?) to start hitting threes with enough regularity that we can have a threat from deep on both the weak and strong sides at the same time, forcing the defense to open up the middle a bit more.

This will often be tougher to do with Meech on the floor. It would simply work wonders all around for Meech to develop a jump shot.

lothar98zag
12-08-2009, 01:43 PM
good thread everyone. carry on.

maynard g krebs
12-08-2009, 01:51 PM
Basically, I don't think any line up with Meech and Sacre is going to work for long stretches, unless Meech finds a way to produce offensively. His drives are already ineffective because the defense is already sagged back to prevent Sacre, so I think it's essential this team needs another shooter on the court.

This, and everything bballbeachbum said so well. Don't know if it's been mentioned in other threads, but on the Sat. postgame show, Tommy mentioned that teams not guarding Meech was a problem and the staff had to "look at some different things". The way to get post position when defenders are pushing you out is to cut across the lane as the ball is being swung around the perimeter, but if the opposing pg can sag and front the center, the post game is next to impossible to execute.

ZagManFan
12-08-2009, 02:12 PM
Stop using him to set screens at the 3 point line!!!! Get him on the post. That's where he belongs. IMHO, Harris needs to set those screens as he is a better ball handler and is more agile and has a better outside shot from 12-15 feet.

roxdoc
12-08-2009, 08:32 PM
Great thought-provoking thread everyone.

MickMick
12-09-2009, 03:44 AM
dbl post

MickMick
12-09-2009, 03:47 AM
If we had just finished watching the game against Wisconsin, this thread wouldn't exist.

Zags need to hit outside shots to keep the middle open. People are picking on the wrong guy. Remember the pre season focus? Maximise player strengths and minimize their weakness. Don't expect Meech to be something that he isn't. Meech still provides too much value in other areas to keep him off of the floor. The difference is the scoring from Gray's position. We know that Steven has a perimeter shot and considered it a strength coming in.

Very simple. Gray's postion contributes offensively and Zags win. Gray's position doesn't contribute points and Zags struggle.


My biggest problem with Sacre isn't scoring. It is how he was outhustled to the ball in the paint against Wake Forest. It was the second chance points that the Zags did not allow in Maui.

Reborn
12-09-2009, 05:03 AM
I thought Sacre had a pretty good game against Wake, outside of his foul shooting. He had 9 boards in probably 20 minutes, which is real good. He was getting the ball in low and getting fouled. He must make his FT in order to punish defenders for their rough play. Rob is still pretty raw and still learning alot, and has alot to learn. He's only a Sophomore. As far as I see, Bobby has two moves. He needs more. If a defender can figure out what you're going to do, he, mostly has the upper hand. I think this limits his ability to score a lot. Right now, with what he does have, and what is available for him in the offense, he should be able to average 10 pts a game, and 4 of those would be from the foul line. I think that's a good goal for Bobby. Learn to be a better passer,and maybe they will stop double teaming him.

ronh_pm
12-09-2009, 05:27 AM
Zags need to hit outside shots to keep the middle open.

+1

If a wing does not demonstrate they need guarding it makes defending the post a play that even I could draw up.

Ron

titopoet
12-09-2009, 06:33 AM
One of best things that Sacre can learn to do better is pass out of the double team. When he is double team, he tries to make a move, and half the time he is not being successful scoring with two on him. If he passes out of the double team he makes teams pay for the double team, and they will be force to stop.
I know some will say that if Meech can't hit the open J it does not work, but even that can be overcome by the entry passer screening after the pass to open a shooter on the wing. If Meech's man doubles, then Meech screens Bouldin's man to free up Matt as an example. There has to be more motion after the entry pass so if Sacre is doubled a pass out it leads to an open look. They can't simple stand around looking at Sacre making a move. They have to make themselves available.

Second, if Sacre passes out of the first double team and while the team scrambles to recovers, a second entry pass makes the double harder and Sacre gets an easier look. Orlando does this really good with Howard. Few is very good at these types of adjustments, but they are not easy adjustments to make game time. (better to make these types adjustments in practice) I noticed when Cincy doubled Matt high, Few put in a some adjustments that when Wake tried the same thing, he made them pay; Wake abandoned the high double quickly. The key is to have Sacre read the double quickly (or good communication if he is doubled from the weakside.)

Come March when Few has his whole system in, it will be less of a problem than it is today.

cjm720
12-09-2009, 07:00 AM
If we had just finished watching the game against Wisconsin, this thread wouldn't exist.

Zags need to hit outside shots to keep the middle open. People are picking on the wrong guy. Remember the pre season focus? Maximise player strengths and minimize their weakness. Don't expect Meech to be something that he isn't. Meech still provides too much value in other areas to keep him off of the floor. The difference is the scoring from Gray's position. We know that Steven has a perimeter shot and considered it a strength coming in.

Very simple. Gray's postion contributes offensively and Zags win. Gray's position doesn't contribute points and Zags struggle.


My biggest problem with Sacre isn't scoring. It is how he was outhustled to the ball in the paint against Wake Forest. It was the second chance points that the Zags did not allow in Maui.


Bingo.

My take on Sacre's lack of agression is because of foul trouble.

DADoZAG
12-09-2009, 08:58 AM
There has to be more motion after the entry pass so if Sacre is doubled a pass out… leads to an open look. They can't [simply] stand around looking at Sacre making a move. They have to make themselves available...

…and Sacre has to be thinking about the kick out. Watching him, he seems like he feels he has something to prove. He’s going to score no matter what.

I really believe that Meech CAN shoot from outside, from what Coach Few has said in interviews, and will be much more successful if the pass is coming from the post. Everyone’s outside shot would be better with the ball coming from the post. No side movement required, no looking away from the basket to receive the pass and then turning, hopefully with feet aligned properly, to shoot. Just step up, take the pass and drain it in one smooth motion.

Ball movement, player movement, not enough of each. Both will make this team much better, both will come with time, but unfortunately time is something us die hard fans find hard to allow.

I think we all need to have just a bit more patience for this young team, and perhaps if we could look at the season as a whole, not just one play, not just one game, not just bits and pieces. Patience, I keep telling myself, ...breath in, breath out, and support the ZAGS.

I believe in this team. But I will admit, if they can’t get to a point where they are feeling the game and not thinking the game…

…we’re doooooooomed.

Go ZAGS!

2Zags3Pups
12-09-2009, 09:05 AM
One thing that is taught is when you get doubled, pull the defenders away from the paint and then pass out. This opens the lane for easy buckets, but also RS loses his deep positioning. Once he learns to pass out effectively, you'll see less double teams as other teams watch video. Secondly, he needs to hustle down the floor and beat his man to the low block and establish that low position and make his man move him. He'll draw more fouls this way and with deep position and a quick move he can also beat the double before it even comes. The outside shot sets this all up as well as others have mentioned.

gamagin
12-09-2009, 09:50 AM
move around, hassle his opponent, play king of the hill and cause either a slam dunk or draw a foul, every time. He needs to serve notice that whoever is on him is going to pay, or have to work his a$$ of and then pay.

Every time he has to establish himself early on, and this can begin with the tipoff which he can't quite figure out how to time properly, and only end this position when he's resting or the game is over.

It should be second nature by now to realize in an instant if he is out of position and if he is 2 or three teamed.

If he can't drive it in he needs to dish it out to whoever is open -- it's a must to run his opponent and keep them honest at the same time.

Right now RS is looking like he's on a different page. He needs to adjust that game between his ears.

And for those who said Harris is the reason RS plays with confidence, you are right. EH keeps RS focused and allows him to function.

However, RS has got to learn to function with or without EH and sooner than later.

It's a game of wills and he needs to remind himself of his summer with Casey Calvary, reminding him with body blows and constantly testing of that will to dominate and use his big body to finish the deal, at the net, 8-9 out of ten times, and to follow his shots until the points are on the scoreboard. Every time.

Go TEAM Zags !

chirguy
12-09-2009, 11:00 AM
I remember watching Weaver, and he did this a lot, drive into the paint and hand the ball to the big guy. Also shooting the 10 to 15 footer helps, because it make the defense defend you and when they do you pass. This would be my advice to meech. Shoot the mid range shot and pass out of it when necessary.

titopoet
12-09-2009, 11:09 AM
I really believe that Meech CAN shoot from outside, from what Coach Few has said in interviews, and will be much more successful if the pass is coming from the post. Everyone’s outside shot would be better with the ball coming from the post. No side movement required, no looking away from the basket to receive the pass and then turning, hopefully with feet aligned properly, to shoot. Just step up, take the pass and drain it in one smooth motion.


I also believe he can hit the open shot. It is a matter of time and confidence. What I meant that there is are adjustments that can made even if the outside J isn't dropping for a particular player.

Side moment is still valuable as it causes the double teaming player more headaches in trying to locate his man afterwards, and second entry pass becomes all that more effective.

VinnyZag
12-09-2009, 11:19 AM
He has to do a better job of establishing position. A guy as big as him shouldn't get pushed 10 feet off the block. A lot of this work is done before the ball is rotated ... by which I mean, he has to establish position before the ball is swung to his side.

DADoZAG
12-09-2009, 11:23 AM
I also believe he can hit the open shot. It is a matter of time and confidence. What I meant that there is are adjustments that can made even if the outside J isn't dropping for a particular player.

Side moment is still valuable as it causes the double teaming player more headaches in trying to locate his man afterwards, and second entry pass becomes all that more effective.

Agreed.

My comments on side movement was in regard to the motion of the 3 point shooters body itself, not the ball. If the pass is coming from the post, the 3 point shooter is in postion, facing the basket, and will find it a much simpler motion to receive the pass and shoot.

My bad for not being clear.

Go ZAGS!

ZagNative
12-09-2009, 02:27 PM
Really good thread. Thanks to all.

bballbeachbum
12-12-2009, 06:36 PM
One thing that is taught is when you get doubled, pull the defenders away from the paint and then pass out. This opens the lane for easy buckets, but also RS loses his deep positioning. Once he learns to pass out effectively, you'll see less double teams as other teams watch video. Secondly, he needs to hustle down the floor and beat his man to the low block and establish that low position and make his man move him. He'll draw more fouls this way and with deep position and a quick move he can also beat the double before it even comes. The outside shot sets this all up as well as others have mentioned.

that...good stuff, well executed tonight

GO TEAM ZAGS!!!

CDC84
12-12-2009, 06:49 PM
One thing that is taught is when you get doubled, pull the defenders away from the paint and then pass out. This opens the lane for easy buckets, but also RS loses his deep positioning. Once he learns to pass out effectively, you'll see less double teams as other teams watch video. .

It can also lead to good looks from the 3 point line. During the 1st half tonight, Harris got doubled along the baseline. He took two defenders away from the paint, passed to one of the guards who passed to Kong for a wide open 3. Swish. It was a thing of beauty to watch.

GonzagaLove
12-12-2009, 07:01 PM
with Bol, Matt and Steven, every team we play should pay dearly for double teaming in the post.