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ZagsGoZags
12-05-2009, 07:38 PM
I believe Elias. He looked perplexed, not guilty.

Here is what he said:

"My feeling is I did nothing wrong," said Harris, who came in averaging 14 points and 8 rebounds a game.

Harris said he and Wake Forest's Chas McFarland were struggling for rebound position on C.J. Harris' missed 3-pointer.

"I put one hand on his chest and went for the rebound and he fell," Elias Harris said. "I didn't know what happened."

In the replay Elias' elbow and forearm were aimed at the high chest around the clavicles as McFarland came straight in. What happened if you look closely is that McFarlands right hand raised up to push Elias's arm out of the way and to defend himself, and the two motions together jammed Elias's right hand into McFarlands neck with a lot of force.

Elias told us his account of things. Nothing in the video (which I have watched dozens of times) or his demeanor afterwards contradicts his account. He was clearing some rebounding space the instant he saw the shooter going up.

ZagLawGrad
12-05-2009, 07:50 PM
the video...the video.. the refs kicking him out....what else can one say?

HOOTER
12-05-2009, 07:51 PM
Maybe It's just me, but Harris looked angry. ESPN showed the replay like what, 15 times? He just seemed to turn, throw up the elbow and go for the throat. If I'm wrong please correct me because I really don't want to believe Harris is capable of such an act. I'd look again but I erased the game from my DVR. I figured I'd never want to watch that again anyway.

BTW, to answer your question, my loyalty is with the Zags regardless. Harris will learn from this experience and the team as a whole will get better.

BroncoZAG615
12-05-2009, 07:57 PM
great. another thread to debate this topic. didn't one of these just get locked?

EngineerZag
12-05-2009, 08:00 PM
I totally agree that Harris did not intend for McFarland to get elbowed in the throat and crash to the floor. The best evidence of this is the fact that he turned around in a box out position and was obviously surprised to be tripping over McFarland who was on the floor at that point. Remember that these things don't happen at the speed of the replay, they happen in the speed of real life.

btzag
12-05-2009, 08:01 PM
I thought it was borderline but you see worse plenty of times throughout the year.

That being said I don't think that is standard technique for boxing out and the coaches will explain as such. Personally I believe he was just trying to be physical but you need to learn to bang in different ways and not forearms to the chest/neck.

I'm not worried about the kid, 8 games played and no notice of dirty play so an isolated incident and borderline at that.

rijman
12-05-2009, 08:07 PM
Aside from the ESPN reviews I replayed it on my DVR multiple times. Harris took a shot to the chin and he retaliated. One thought I had was Harris may have thought McFarland was closer, he may have felt his presence, and turned to deliver a shot into his chest but McFarland was further away than he thought and his arms continued ascending the further they got from his body so when he made contact it is was higher than intended. If Mcfarland would have been another foot or two closer he probably would have taken a shot in the chest. Regardless of intention, I think the refs got the call right.

bballbeachbum
12-05-2009, 08:13 PM
Regarding owning it, it goes like this

"He elbowed me in the face. there was no call. I elbowed him back. I got caught. I'll try not ot do that next time."

Next!

maynard g krebs
12-05-2009, 08:27 PM
Regarding owning it, it goes like this

"He elbowed me in the face. there was no call. I elbowed him back. I got caught. I'll try not ot do that next time."

Next!

Exactly. McFarland normally plays with elbows extended horizontal at head level, and when he pivots, elbow meets head. Elias got pissed and retaliated. Heat of the moment.

An older, wiser player bides his time and waits for an opportunity for a less easily detected payback. McFarland had it coming. Elias will learn to be smarter next time. Of course, Harris' hit was 10x as hard, but that's always how things escalate. The guy who gets hit first is mad, and he hits back harder.

Refs did a great job after that, calling it tight and keeping things under control.

sullyzag66
12-05-2009, 09:29 PM
Well into Lavin's rant, he said, "Again, if the forearm's put into the chest, in terms of teaching or technique on boxout, we often as coaches tell our players to turn, locate an opponent, put the forearm on the chest, pivot, turn, create space and then go to the glass." He went on to say it was a shot to the neck area, but the assumption here is that he was trying to aim higher than the chest area.

Watching the replay, Harris followed that technique to perfection. He looked the opponent off; he didn't stare him down. He created some space and was looking for the rebound. Watching it in slow motion it may appear otherwise, but watch it in real time and he was trying to create space and get a rebound. I don't believe he intended to cheap shot him. He was aggressive and maybe trying to send a message, but I don't think he meant real harm.

sullyzag66
12-05-2009, 10:22 PM
I do worry that Harris will get a reputation with refs that will limit his ability to play his game.

LAZAGFAN11
12-05-2009, 11:32 PM
Facebook group already up: http://www.facebook.com/#/group.php?gid=190903304447&ref=nf

225 people already joined. Sorry, but this didn't deserve an ejection. I stand with Elias.

JPtheBeasta
12-05-2009, 11:49 PM
Maybe It's just me, but Harris looked angry. ESPN showed the replay like what, 15 times? He just seemed to turn, throw up the elbow and go for the throat. If I'm wrong please correct me because I really don't want to believe Harris is capable of such an act. I'd look again but I erased the game from my DVR. I figured I'd never want to watch that again anyway.

BTW, to answer your question, my loyalty is with the Zags regardless. Harris will learn from this experience and the team as a whole will get better.

He always looks angry. Well, intense, at least. I can't honestly say he looked any different than normal. Harris appeared to actually look up at the sky after the whistle blew as if in disbelief that a foul was actually called. Pretty weird reaction for a guy if he is trying to deliberately go after a player he is mad at...

McFarland said that he got struck in the Adam's apple in a post-game interview. I have to say that I caught an inadvertant elbow to the larynx in a pick-up game from a guy who had close to 100 lbs on me and I (A) stayed on my feet, (B) didn't play the rest of the day, and (C) had to put ice on my throat just to breath normally (I learned what "seeing stars" was all about). McFarland looked just fine on the bench after his Euroleague soccer player-esque stint on his tummy. That play was unfortunate but looked much worse than it actually was, IMO.

xjzico
12-05-2009, 11:55 PM
That was not just an elbow, that was a forearm. Ask yourself, if that were a Zag player on the receiving end how would you feel? That was reckless on his part no matter what. He made a mistake and it was the huge play of the game.

Crazy
12-06-2009, 01:51 AM
i also don't think that this one was intentional, he was instantly going for the rebound.

Maybe another reason could be the different physical apspect of the game, in the US and europe this thing would be called in germany too but i don't think that he get disqualified for it or did you didn't separate betwenn disqualifiying flagrant and flagrant fouls?

Saxon_zag
12-06-2009, 02:12 AM
I agree with the original post here and believe elias that this was not intentional at all. Elias has quickly become probably my favorite player on this team and that isn't going to change with this incident. I don't think he should be nor will he be suspended. I am more ashamed of the people saying that elias did something so "shameful" to the university than i am in Elias, it was an accident. Love this kid already

ZagsGoZags
12-06-2009, 02:39 AM
What I can gather from his facial expression right afterwards is surprise, not anger. He seems surprised there is a whistle (which is normal for most players) and surprised Chas is down because he expected much more contact than he got. He gives up four or five inches to Chas, so he has to put his forearm 4-5 inches higher than his own height to push off. When he makes contact about that height, Chas's right arm immediately deflects the push off upward.
If you look at the tape, both guys saw the shot going up, Elias knows where McFarland is in the corner of his peripheral vision, and instantaneously spins to initiate the contact of pushing off, the usual thing, to clear some rebound space and box out. I don't think he premeditated going for the neck. McFarland seems to be lower for some reason, and possibly lowering somewhat before the shot hits the neck. I don't know if he was slipping, or already anticipating the hit, or if Elias got extended or what. I couldn't quite tell.

bartruff1
12-06-2009, 05:48 AM
There are different opinions in here about the call....about the reason why the game was lost...about how this incident will reflect on Gonzaga's image.. but I don't see anyone being disloyal or negative about the team or Harris... I suspect everyone is pleased to see Manny and Kong show their potential.. no one is giving up on the team or Harris....I do think it it is unfortunate that some people can't agree to disagree without being insulting to those that hold a different opinion....but, it is what it is.....

kitzbuel
12-06-2009, 05:56 AM
i also don't think that this one was intentional, he was instantly going for the rebound.

Maybe another reason could be the different physical apspect of the game, in the US and europe this thing would be called in germany too but i don't think that he get disqualified for it or did you didn't separate betwenn disqualifiying flagrant and flagrant fouls?
In NCAA rules, a flagrant foul automatically includes ejection. Intentional fouls do not. He was given a flagrant foul.

Reborn
12-06-2009, 06:16 AM
Don't get caught up in the negativity. It never helps. This is just one loss, and although it was at home (and that always hurt more), there are so many positives that come out of that game. The most positive thing is that we can compete with a very good team without one of our best players, and definitely our best rebounder. To think that we could compete with Wake Forest without Harris is really very difficult to imagine. Our bench is much better than some people think. I think Bol Kong and Manny Arop ooz with talent. Manny is going to be an incredible guard at some point. He can shoot, he defends pretty well most of the time, and he's a great rebounder. And Bol Kong can flat out score. When Matt goes out Let Kong shoot. Give up some plays. He was 4-4 from the 3 point line and 4-5 for the game. In what, 12 minutes?

I'm proud of our guys for putting up a fight. And fight to the end they did. There seems to be too little credit given to the team for what they did do.

Personally, I think Few is playing Matt too much. He seemed drained in the second half. He's been resting Gray, so that shouldn't be Steven's excuse. We have a good bench, imo, and the team can afford to let Matt rest 4 or 5 minutes a half. I really hope Few thinks about this. We need our legs to be strong at the end of a game.

MickMick
12-06-2009, 06:49 AM
It is very obvious to me that there are a few here that have never played highly competitive, organized, team sport.

For those of you that have, I'm sure you understand the elements involved.

I absolutely believe that Elias was not trying to do anything more than execute a block out to grab a rebound. I also think he put a little extra in for the guy that kept elbowing his face. Not extra intended for the throat, but extra intended for the chest....like a well executed block out. Further, the "victim" dropped like a rock like he was taught to.

What Elias will learn from this is to keep his arms lower. Receivers in football are taught to "look" the football into their hands. Similarly, Elias will learn to "look" his forearms into the chest. He will also learn that he might have drawn attention if had hit the chest as intended. The whole idea is to gain separation, not level the guy. He could have used a little less force, but it is understandable that he was pissed from taking an elbow to the face moments earlier.

Otherwise.....don't do anything different. Don't let one incident change what you do.

Edit: I'm not sure if "block out" is a good term for what Elias was intending to do. A better description would be "gain separation".

Reborn
12-06-2009, 07:05 AM
I absolutely believe that Elias was not trying to do anything more than execute a block out to grab a rebound. I also think he put a little extra in for the guy that kept elbowing his face. Not extra intended for the throat, but extra intended for the chest....like a well executed block out. Further, the "victim" dropped like a rock like he was taught to.

EXACTLY :cheers: give McFarland an oscar.

McFarland is a fake. He's a fake warrior. Even his own fans admit it.
Elias Harris is the real thing. PLEASE do NOT change Elias. In the end, your real toughness will go further than McFarland's fake. And you will lead this Zag team to higher places this year.

I think the real story in all of this is NOT Elias's meanness, or anger (he is not mean spirited), it's McFarland's acting. I would think that the refs could have sorted that out on the TV screen. Playing "dirty" basketball is a big part of the game. Trying to get away with as much as you can. In McFarland's case "cheap shotting" his defenders to the face all night long. He is good at that. I think he got into Elias's head, and he must learn to not let that happen again. The psychological aspect to this game is HUGE. The Zags know that, and have hardly fallen apart emotionally as they did yesterday. But the Zags are soooo young, and are expectd to contribute a lot to this team, and in time they will grow in understanding the psychological part of the college too. It's just part of the learning. And as is said so ofen, this is the time of year to be learning these kinds of things.

ZagNative
12-06-2009, 07:22 AM
ZagsGoZag, I'm right there with you. But I believe I have finally learned that after a loss, I can expect this board to be ....


http://lh6.ggpht.com/_UkLNCxT74w4/SxvU0abl7_I/AAAAAAAACas/rtvmKi_i_JI/The%20SnakePit.jpg

I come here looking for well-reasoned discussion, but that's not what happens for at least 24 hours after any loss, with the possible exception of a loss that turns out unexpectedly close like the one at Michigan State.

So I ain't bitin' by posting on those threads - at least not today. Noggana do it. It's like trying to argue with a drunk. Nobody wins that contest - or put another way, "Never wrestle with a pig. You'll both get dirty but only the pig will enjoy it."

I had to edit this post to add this great photo from the Northwest Montana Fair of a pig-wrestling team. Name for this team of eleven-year-olds cracked me up: "Three studs and a studette!" Good to see ZN wasn't the last great product to come out of western Montana! (Hey! I'm talking about the studette, not the pig.)


http://lh3.ggpht.com/_UkLNCxT74w4/Sxvfzr75suI/AAAAAAAACdI/T3jhB8DtL6U/nw-mt-fair-pig-wrestling.jpg

HOOTER
12-06-2009, 07:34 AM
It is very obvious to me that there are a few here that have never played highly competitive, organized, team sport.

For those of you that have, I'm sure you understand the elements involved.


Do you mean a highly competitive, organized team sport with ref's?

I have, and I know there's enough refs on the floor to catch stuff like that. That's probably the most "crucial" element in this whole equation and likely cost us the whole game. We owned WF prior to that incident. To be honest, if Harris had done the exact same thing but hadn't got caught we wouldn't be having this discussion. I think his anger was justified and I also think McFarland flopped and the result of Harris' actions were highly dramatized. Harris' actions were far too obvious because he was momentarily blinded by frustration, and that was a huge mistake. He got caught and the ref's did the only thing they could in that situation. Lesson learned. Harris, and the team, will get better as a result of last night's game and that's what really matters.

gonstu
12-06-2009, 07:55 AM
ZagsGoZag, I'm right there with you. But I believe I have finally learned that after a loss, I can expect this board to be ....


http://lh6.ggpht.com/_UkLNCxT74w4/SxvU0abl7_I/AAAAAAAACas/rtvmKi_i_JI/The%20SnakePit.jpg

I come here looking for well-reasoned discussion, but that's not what happens for at least 24 hours after any loss, with the possible exception of a loss that turns out unexpectedly close like the one at Michigan State.

So I ain't bitin' by posting on those threads - at least not today. Noggana do it. It's like trying to argue with a drunk. Nobody wins that contest - or put another way, "Never wrestle with a pig. You'll both get dirty but only the pig will enjoy it."

+1. Coming on this board after a loss like this is terrible if you are looking for well reasoned discussion, but if you aren't then it's kind of funny too!

ZagNative
12-06-2009, 08:35 AM
+1. Coming on this board after a loss like this is terrible if you are looking for well reasoned discussion, but if you aren't then it's kind of funny too!Indeed. Most often the "discussion" will devolve into a cow-pie-throwing contest eventually. Reminds me of nothing so much as the old Point-Counter-Point (http://www.hulu.com/watch/2306/saturday-night-live-point-counterpoint-lee-marvin-and-michelle-triola) segments on the great old Saturday Night Live.


http://lh5.ggpht.com/_UkLNCxT74w4/SxvpLeYo_iI/AAAAAAAACdM/KDQvsJzoEuU/Jane%20you%20ignorant.jpg

Jedster
12-06-2009, 08:41 AM
Had to let this sit overnight before I weighed in as I was very disappointed with the loss. With Elias, I think that yes, the ref's got the call right, but what we are all debating here is his intention. It is clear that he got the arm up high, and made contact with McFarland's neck area. Did he flop? Debatable, but like has been said by his own fan in another thread he is known to do that and also to play with his elbows. Again, this, to me is ancillary. The question again, is was it intentional by Elias, as the answer to this would lead the discussion.

Here is what Elias said (and echoed on the KREM raw footage). “I saw the replay on TV, too, and I didn’t even recognize that he clipped me with the elbow,” Harris said. “I just stepped back and just normal underarm on his chest and went for the rebound. He just fell.” He went on further in the interview to say he didn't mean to intentionally hurt someone.

So, that leaves me with two options to consider:

1) This was an ugly accident and Elias was trying to establish position, box out, and in the process got his arm up too high and hit him in the neck.

2) Elias is not being honest (I hate to use the word lying) and meant to do exactly what he did and is trying to cover this up.

For me, I lean towards #1 for a couple reasons.

1) Elias has not shown any hint of playing dirty or retaliating in his time here at Gonzaga. Nor have I heard of any type of play like this from him in Germany. Elias plays hard and is not afraid to being physical. I'm sure that there were plenty of opportunities to see something dirty like this in previous games (ie: Cincinnati, which was MUCH more physical). Elias has made quotes ( I think after the Cincy game) where they were talking about the physical nature of the game and he said that's how it's played in Germany.

2) What would motivate him to do something like this on purpose (especially at the neck level?). We have seen on the video he took a shot from McFarland. I doubt this is the first shot of this type he's taken in organized basketball, so why retaliate now? Further, Elias is pretty smart. If he is going to retaliate, I doubt he would do so when there is no one else near him and McFarland as he is in a highly visible spot and would get caught. Since he didn't immediately retaliate after the shot he took, you would think he would wait for a more opportune time for payback.

3)There is no history of Elias being dishonest. In fact, I think we have all been impressed at his candidness in his interviews this year.

4) If he was mad at McFarland and wanted to get "payback" his reaction afterwards didn't show that. In most instances where someone takes a shot back at someone and gets caught, they are ranting to whoever will listen about the injustice of it all and that player A did X to them. I didn't see any of this after the shot. Elias stood there, looking a bit confused and worried.

For me, I think this was unfortunate, though not intentional, and Elias will definitely learn from this. I certainly don't want him to be put on a leash that would temper his physical play and enthusiasm (no, I'm not saying this hit was that). He paid a very steep penalty by missing the last 60% of the game, and I'm sure he feels he let his team down. For as much an impact as Elias has made this year, he is still a freshman and has a lot to learn about the game, technique and NCAA basketball. Unless there is evidence that this was intentional, all the talk of suspending him is a bit much. In my mind, it wasn't intentional, so we should close the book, learn from this and move on.


Edit: From Few's Krem interview-Elias is an incredibly nice kid and didn't mean that in a malicious way. That's not his style.

Vanzagger
12-06-2009, 09:04 AM
That was not just an elbow, that was a forearm. Ask yourself, if that were a Zag player on the receiving end how would you feel? That was reckless on his part no matter what. He made a mistake and it was the huge play of the game.

I'm not trying to say your message is wrong but your martial art knowledge is.

In Muay Thai fighting you strike with the elbow for best result of knock out. You should not even flex your forearm because that increases the muscle tissue over the bone and means less damage. Self defense or sport purposes only of course.

Get tougher!

duper
12-06-2009, 10:00 AM
People who are willing to except the Harris elbow must be the same type of people who were seen on national TV dropping F bombs on Wake players and coaches going in to the tunnel. Are we a classy school and team or a bunch of neanderthal thug?

ZagNative
12-06-2009, 10:25 AM
People who are willing to except the Harris elbow must be the same type of people who were seen on national TV dropping F bombs on Wake players and coaches going in to the tunnel. Are we a classy school and team or a bunch of neanderthal thug?See what I mean? Typical post by a certain segment of the GU fan base who engages in name-calling against anyone who disagrees ....:mad:

Same old ...

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_UkLNCxT74w4/SxvpLeYo_iI/AAAAAAAACdM/KDQvsJzoEuU/Jane%20you%20ignorant.jpg

ID ZAGFAN
12-06-2009, 10:29 AM
People who are willing to except the Harris elbow must be the same type of people who were seen on national TV dropping F bombs on Wake players and coaches going in to the tunnel. Are we a classy school and team or a bunch of neanderthal thug?

Did you mean to say "except" or "accept"? It sure changes the meaning.:confused:

ID ZAGFAN

BobZag
12-06-2009, 10:33 AM
This pissing match is history.

Hell, mild-mannered Batista dang near killed a SCU player. It happens. This ain't tiddly winks.

Too funny.