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BobZag
12-05-2009, 07:02 PM
Yes, absolutely, losing feels awful and it just plain sucks. That said, keep in mind this team is six (6) points from being undefeated, and each of the two losses were there for the taking by the Zags. A foul here, a stop there, a basket here, a few free-throws there, a rebound, a silly mistake... If just one or two of those goes the other way........

These Zags are a "never say never" gutsy, gritty, tough bunch. The future is exciting to think about.

Small picture: Zags lost by 2 to Wake Forest, caused, in part, by an unfortunate foul.
Big picture: Zags are 6-2 and so close to 8-0, with some newcomers starting to come on strong.

I can only speak for myself, but I am very optimistic about these Zags.

GPGUgrad
12-05-2009, 07:07 PM
I see the "Big Picture". Our young guys need playing time, it should be a great tough team at the right time.

Learning lessons, patience.

Ezag
12-05-2009, 07:07 PM
Yes, this is a gutsy team like none other in GU's past. I have no doubt had the Harris incident not happened, we would have prevailed, this team does not quit.

If there is a good that came out of this, we got a sneak peak at Manny and Kong potential--making some valuable contributions in a big game against big players.

IdahoZagFan
12-05-2009, 07:09 PM
Thank you, Bobzag, for pointing out the obvious! Yes, this is a team with a lot of promise! Go, Zags!!!

LongIslandZagFan
12-05-2009, 07:12 PM
Yes, absolutely, losing feels awful and it just plain sucks. That said, keep in mind this team is six (6) points from being undefeated, and each of the two losses were there for the taking by the Zags. A foul here, a stop there, a basket here, a few free-throws there, a rebound, a silly mistake... If just one or two of those goes the other way........

These Zags are a "never say never" gutsy, gritty, tough bunch. The future is exciting to think about.

Small picture: Zags lost by 2 to Wake Forest, caused, in part, by an unfortunate foul.
Big picture: Zags are 6-2 and so close to 8-0, with some newcomers starting to come on strong.

I can only speak for myself, but I am very optimistic about these Zags.

Totally agree. It really took about a half of a game for them to get themselves righted. I saw several positives. Bol was lights out and got us back in the game. Not bad for a guy who has been riding pine. Steven continues to take care of business in other ways besides scoring. For those out there that think he is selfish... you really haven't been watching the games and you certainly don't know much about hoops. There are two sides of the game, while Steven isn't scoring he is one of the best defenders on the floor. I'll take that any day

I look at it this way, having Harris ejected helped this team in the end. The bench IMHO just got bigger tonight and that can only bode well for the Zags down the road.

EH will be fine... it was nothing close to being a Gerald Henderson moment and not nearly as egregious as Lavin made it out to be. Also, going with the Lavin theme... just a peeve here... when the other team starts keeping pace with the other team in terms of scoring it ceases to be a "run".

jim77
12-05-2009, 07:15 PM
Yes, this is a gutsy team like none other in GU's past. I have no doubt had the Harris incident not happened, we would have prevailed, this team does not quit.

If there is a good that came out of this, we got a sneak peak at Manny and Kong potential--making some valuable contributions in a big game against big players.

AMEN.

gamagin
12-05-2009, 07:19 PM
Yes, absolutely, losing feels awful and it just plain sucks. That said, keep in mind this team is six (6) points from being undefeated, and each of the two losses were there for the taking by the Zags. A foul here, a stop there, a basket here, a few free-throws there, a rebound, a silly mistake... If just one or two of those goes the other way........

These Zags are a "never say never" gutsy, gritty, tough bunch. The future is exciting to think about.

Small picture: Zags lost by 2 to Wake Forest, caused, in part, by an unfortunate foul.
Big picture: Zags are 6-2 and so close to 8-0, with some newcomers starting to come on strong.

I can only speak for myself, but I am very optimistic about these Zags.

and we're really just getting started.

Go TEAM Zags !

HOOTER
12-05-2009, 07:28 PM
I have no doubt had the Harris incident not happened, we would have prevailed

Absolutely, beyond a shadow of a doubt. That was the game changer of the century. That took the wind out of our sails and gave WF enough momentum to last the remainder of the game. There is alot to be excited about, no question, but I'm in no mood to be excited right now. :(

NovaZag
12-05-2009, 07:35 PM
I share your optimism Bobzag. Playing in these close games against quality opponents this early in the season will pay dividends for these young guys come March. I have no doubt Few will work out the kinks.

surfmonkey89
12-05-2009, 07:37 PM
I disagree.

Please don't post anything positive.

Neg reppin' you

:P

mendiant
12-05-2009, 07:56 PM
One correction dear Robert....there were TWO unfortunate fouls.

Either one NOT done and we win.

love,
mendiant

drnoe
12-05-2009, 08:26 PM
Tonight's loss really sucked. To be really objective, the refs did the right thing to toss Harris. If what he did was shocking to me, imagine how shocking it was to his teammates. The Harris debacle cost the Zags the game, and that is a fact. They still ended up fighting back and had a shot to win the game. Manny and Bol ended up getting valuable PT... that was a great thing! Sometimes a loss brings about good things.

KO is going to be a force in WCC play... you have to love most of the decisions he makes right now. Gibbs is also going to be a great asset. Bol Kong was huge tonight. Manny is earning more and more minutes. Gray will get his stroke back. Bouldin is earning his first team AA creds.

The rest of December, I have a feeling, is going to define this team. After this F&*^%$ loss, I have a really good feeling about playing Duke in the Garden. Tonight's loss is a defining moment.

El Voce
12-05-2009, 08:27 PM
You know, we could have scheduled a lesser team for today's game, and left the Kennel feeling really good about ourselves. Instead, we scheduled an ACC team that will probably win 20 games this year, and left the Kennel with a loss and a great sense of what-could-have-been.

Mark Few schedules games like this for two reasons: Help our RPI come March, and get ready for conference games. Our RPI won't take a huge hit on this one, and we definitely can use this game as a learning experience.

Like all of Zag Nation, the two technical fouls (especially the first one) left me wondering what's going on with our Zags. We lost our composure, a sign (I think) of our youth. We all knew going in to this season that there would be steep learning curves, and today was one.

Harris said he didn't know what he did wrong, and I believe him. I would expect, however, after the coaching staff goes over the tape with him, he will realize his mistake and not repeat it. Meech came very close to a T in the WSU game, and got a well deserved one today. After today's episode, he rode a lot of pine. One would think lesson learned.

With our regulars not getting the job done, Few did his second great coaching job of the week, patching together an unlikely lineup that almost pulled out another win. This team is tough, this team believes in itself.

Between the two games, we got great bench play from Arop, Gibbs, and Kong, plus another gutty performance by Olynyk. The bench is coming around, and that is probably the greatest plus of the week.

Robert has had two sub par games in a row, and Stephen has struggled offensively. The latter must learn to handle double teams, and the former just seems a hair off on his shot - my guess is that he is getting close to going off on somebody.

Matty is just a stud. Nuff said.

We are 6-2. I would have taken this record in a heartbeat before the season started. More importantly, we are getting the needed experience before league starts. Remember, folks, it is not our ranking now that counts, it is our RPI and league record in March that we are playing for.

Keep the faith. The kids are alright!

Reborn
12-05-2009, 08:38 PM
Elias Harris did NOT lose this game for the Zags! The TEAM lost it. Harris made a big mistake, and it was a big blow to the Zags. It was almost a knockout punch. The Zags hit the canvas for sure after Elias was ejected. This game reminds me of what it feels like to be hit hard in the chin in a fight. I mean real hard. So hard that the blow knocks you to the ground. You lie there stunned and manage to get back on your feet but you are very wobbly.

And then Meech's techincal. Another big blow that made us hit the canvas again. Meech was benched for the rest of the game. Now two of our tougher players are gone. We are staggered for sure. It looks like Wake Forest is going in for the knockout at any moment. But suddenly this young Zag team finds new life in Bol Kong and Manny Arop. And we begin fightig our way back. It was an incredible comeback by the Zags. We had our chance in the end, and missed it. IMO the last shot should have been taken by Kong. He was the one who was brnging us back. He brought new life to a beaten Zag team.

I get pretty darn tired of all the negativity on the board, but it happens after every loss. This is one heck of a Zag team with so much heart and fight in it. And Elias Harris has as much fight in him as anyone. I feel bad for him because he is a true warrior. The most amazing thing about this game is how we almost came back without Harris, and without Sacre and Meech. And yet we will continue to hear talk about what a lousey bench we have. GIVE ME A BREAK. There's so much talent there, and so much toughness.

Harris was not trying to hurt McFarland. He would have used his fist or elbow if he had wanted to. To call a forearm to the neck with more of a push than a hit violent, is rediculous. McFarland is a FAKE and he was the dirtiest player on the court and some of our own fans stand up for him. Basketball at the college level is unbelievably tough and sometimes violent. But Harris' blow was not one of them. Unless you've played at the college level you may have a tough time to understand how brutal the game can get, and also how much faking goes on. There is more FAKING THAN atual brutality. But players are trying to place hurt on opponents all the time. Elais is NOT like that. He is the one on our team who is usuallly trying to keep the peace, as in the Cincinatti game when Meech got closelined by a hit to the neck while driving to the basket on a layup. That player was NOT ejected and that blow was ABOVE the chest too.

If this affects either Harris or the Zags I will be shocked. It's something that happens in the heat of a battle sometimes. And if we are talking about Harris "breaking the rules" and should be disqualified,then why wasn't the Wake Forest player called for an intential foul at the end when he clealry grabbed Matt around the waist and was NOT making an attemt to hit the ball. Answer that, those of you who think refs are perfect. IN my opinon if you eject Harris for violation of a rule (which is akay) then you need to call that intentional foul at the end of the game.

I love this team because it's filled with fighters. Somehow they always find a way. What would everyone be saying if we had won the game? And we could have. If Steven makes those free throws we win that game. Aminu and McFarland had already fouled out, and two of Wakes other bigs had 4 fouls on them. They would have crumbled in OT. And everyone on the GUboard would be happy.

You know I hate losing. Thats why I waited so long to post. But I have to tell you, I loved this game more than any of them so far because the odds of us making a comeback without Harris seemed absolutely impossible. And then suddenly in comes Bol Kong. Bang, bang, bang, bang, and then a sweet assist to Gray for a layup. I love it when Kong is shooting and the nets are almost ripping. He was hitting nothing but net all night. Wow!!! And Did you see Manny Arop guarding Aminu? Manny is so tough, ripping down one rebound after another. Sacre should be ashamed. I've been a huge fan of Manny Arop from the get go, and he is going to be soooooo goood. And Kong too. This loss will make us better, and tougher too. The Zags look tired. We've had a lot of tough games. Maybe we get a little repreive next week.

TM27
12-05-2009, 08:45 PM
Three things that I continue to notice:

1) Every GU team before this one has a "hump" that they cant get over whether it is due to talent or heart. This team has seen in game adversity that would have destroyed some of the past GU teams and they seem to have the heart, and the talent, to hang with anyone....
2) Along those same lines...Matt Bouldin is the most impressive Zag I have ever watched! Loved Santangelo, loved Daye, Blake, Ammo, Ronny, Rillie, Casey and Dan, etc but right now Few is able to put any 4 players from the bench in with Matt and the team is competitive b/c Matt can do SO much. He is unbelievable! I have no idea if he is athletic enough to survive in the league, but as a complete basketball player he has to be the best we have ever had.
3) Mark Few is having his best season. In game adjustments, playing time, use of TO's, and getting the kids to "buy in". He is doing a great job!

Zagineer
12-05-2009, 09:12 PM
See Post #15 above.


+1 There's a reason you are the Voice of Reason.

:allhail:


See Post #16 above.

A reading from the Epistle of Reborn on 12/05/09 to Zag Nation.

Very nice. And thanks for your use of paragraphs. Makes it so much easier for us in the older generation to read. :)

This is a refreshing thread. I almost became brain dead from reading the locked thread. :( (It reminded me of some past summer nights at Waldo's* after an over-forty soccer game.)

*A Kirkland tavern visited by the over-forty soccer team I was on and known for its frequent visits by the Kirkalnd Police. But that was many years ago.

fedwayzag
12-05-2009, 09:26 PM
Thanks BobZag for the post. I also think there are positives which can come out of this loss. I think Harris made an honest mistake. I would rather he learn today, then in a tournement. I also think Meech learned as well. When was the last time we had 2 technicals in one game?? I'm sure it has happened but I cannot remember when. If neither one occurs it looks like we win. As I stated, better to learn a hard lesson now then later.

TheMorrisonIsBack
12-05-2009, 09:32 PM
Reborn... Elias might not have lost this game for us, but we wouldn't have lost had he not gone tossed.... We still lost the lead, and dug a huge hole after the fact.. but an unfortunate scenario was the difference maker IMO. Oh well, I look at it like this... We are a young, young team. We can't finish the season with only 1 loss... So now we've got 2.. Sets us up for a win in NYC, right? :-)

wiszag
12-05-2009, 09:33 PM
The refs were fine, some shots didn't go down, they guys showed a lot of character. This wasn't a bad day. The positives WAYYYY outweighed the negatives. I don't know why but I feel good about the whole thing.

Beat Duke!!

krozman
12-05-2009, 11:07 PM
I agree that we need to get past the Elias thing. Yes it cost us THIS game, but not every game. The things i'm most worried about are:

1. Goodson. Seriously, he's just not impressing and his minutes indicate it. A starting point guard with a technical being his only foul only getting 24 minutes?

2. Depth. Without Kong's 3's, we would have been blown out. I think the score doesn't match how poorly we actually played.

3. Free Throw Shooting. I prayed for a derek raivio moment several times tonight. Didn't get em.


Only thing I'm really sure about is Boudin's game, and Gray's defense. Everything else right now is "needs improvement." Hopefully by the end of conference play it's enough to make a run and not just hope for next year's upside (not that i'm confident about guard play next year).

Remember, we started this season with slightly lower expectations than undefeated, so lets not get too crazy.

MickMick
12-05-2009, 11:13 PM
You are right BobZag.


Further, this was the best shooting night for Wake Forest of their season.

But there are a couple of things that don't sit well with me.

Without Elias on the floor, this team will get creamed on the boards against top flight competition. Rob and KO were beaten badly on the boards after Harris departed. Foster was a huge liability in his limited time. Arop provided some rebounding relief down the stretch, but too little too late.

The defense down the stretch wasn't good. Part of it was coach Few "playing the odds". The scouting report for WF was to play zone and force them to shoot from the perimeter. It didn't work. There probably was a point in time to cry "uncle" when it became obvious they were not going to cool down. I will acknowledge that playing man would be risky against WF, but
Aminu wasn't playing particularly well and I would have prefered the ball in his hands more than their freshman sharpshooters.

Their lightning quick guard killed us with penetration/passing/drawing fouls. Zags need to figure this out for post season.

northsidezagfan
12-06-2009, 12:00 AM
now dont get me wrong... im just as mad about the loss as anyone, but there are several positives to come out of the game tonight. Few cannot keep playing the starters 38 minutes per game (bouldin, gray especially) they will get burned out before long, and tonight hopefully gave him more confidence in arop, kong, and the rest of his bench. these guys are going to be critical in conference play. i worry that this is already wearing on gray, and that some of his offensive struggles are due to the huge number of minutes he is playing with such tremendous defensive responsibility (thompson, etc.)
who would have thought we would make our comeback tonight with a lineup that didnt feature a true point or a true 5? (arop, gray, bouldin, kong, olynyk). i really hope few continues to show faith in these guys and lets them get significant minutes. this will pay off in march.

WallaWallaZag
12-06-2009, 12:26 AM
2. Depth. Without Kong's 3's, we would have been blown out. I think the score doesn't match how poorly we actually played.

Remember, we started this season with slightly lower expectations than undefeated, so lets not get too crazy.

ummnnn...krozman...if the threes by kong aren't an example of depth, what is? i think this game bodes well for our depth...well, at least at the guard and wing spots.

yah, missed free throws are killing us...not gonna roast gray for his misses since his confidence is obviously down a little right now and that was a tough situation anyways, but sacre and olynyk need to improve and having seen both stroke it i think they're capable...shaq they are not.

UberZagFan
12-06-2009, 01:04 AM
That said, keep in mind this team is six (6) points from being undefeated, and each of the two losses were there for the taking by the Zags.

Uber supposes he needs to go with the party line and say he agrees with BZ. With that said, keep in mind this team is five (5) points from being 4-4.

Saxon_zag
12-06-2009, 02:20 AM
2. Depth. Without Kong's 3's, we would have been blown out. I think the score doesn't match how poorly we actually played.


So let me get this straight. We had a guy come of our bench and score points for us.. but without those bench points we would have been blown out.. so we have poor depth?

Air Force Zag
12-06-2009, 05:02 AM
A month ago, many (most) on this board accurately predicted exactly what we are seeing. Flashes of brilliance accompanied by unfathomable rookie mistakes. We're getting exactly what we thought we'd get...but much better -- way more ups than downs .

I would not say we have true depth yet...but we are building it fast. The raw talent is there, our freshman just need to learn their assignments (offensively and defensively). Bol Kong is a prime example -- flashes of brilliance on offense, lots of energy...just needs to instinctively know where he needs to be on the court (especially defensively) within this team's scheme.

We've never asked a team to learn so much so fast...but they are doing it.

ezcure17
12-06-2009, 07:29 AM
Listen up everyone....this WHOLE MESSAGE BOARD should read Reborn's post.....that sums up EVERYTHING and he is 100% correct!!!! It is exactly what we should ALL be seeing. Thanks again Reborn for you perfect post!!!

Ezag
12-06-2009, 08:42 AM
Reborn, you might be tired of negativity after a lose on this board, but I challenge you to find a board anywhere that does not exhibit the same response following their team loss and some boards like Scout's UW board has some of the harshest fan responses around after a loss. We have nothing on their response after a UW loss. I think you would see even more negativity on this board but it seems to be policed more than most.

The fact of the matter is that this happens on every board and is just how people are. When we win, were the best, when we lose, 50 different reasons come out why. It has always happened after a loss and always will.

I previously said we probably lost because of Harris and maybe that is not entirely true but missing his 14pts, 10rbs a game surely would have made more of a difference than anyone else on the team other than Bouldin.

I have said this before, that there is no doubt in my mind had we had Harris the rest of the game, we would have won. You can take that to mean, yes Harris cost us the game or not. You have your opinion. I have mine. They may not agree all the time but that is why we have a discussion and sometimes a "debate" forum.

NotoriousZ
12-06-2009, 09:12 AM
...Harris said he didn't know what he did wrong, and I believe him. I would expect, however, after the coaching staff goes over the tape with him, he will realize his mistake and not repeat it...

This was a Euro-freshman mistake. After playing against NBAers and other professionals, I think Harris was doing what he was taught or what he learned to do when someone is throwing elbows at you. When he goes over the tape with the coaches, they'll show him how not to extend his arm and to keep away from the neck/head when "being physical" with a player who is doing that to you.

Great post El Voce, I just wanted to highlight what was to me the most important part. We learned a ton in this game and Arop and Kong are just getting better and better.:)

ZagNative
12-06-2009, 09:13 AM
After a loss, it seems almost pointless to try to post anything that attempts to find any positives. Aren't there already at least 20 other negative threads you could post your grievances on? Sheesh.

BobZag
12-06-2009, 09:28 AM
In the end, lessons were learned and you just know Few & Staff will teach off them. Rebounding, FTs, staying poised and composed... It was a learning experience, albeit the hard way.

I saw Arop emerge and watched his confidence grow with every possession. That kid is going to be something else. He is a natural scorer and a mini-Rodman type rebounder. Just hustles 100% of the time. As much as I think Kong's game will get better and better as he starts to mix in drives with his 3-point shooting, Manny is the one who really caught my eye.

6-2 with this schedule, with this team, is darn good.

Count our blessings, take a deep breath, get some more PT this week for the bench vs Augustana and Davidson before taking on Duke. Perhaps the guys will beat Duke to take the sour taste of this Wake loss out of our mouthes.

They can do it. Never say never with this new bunch of scrappers. That's the identity of this team, similar to the 2001 Mariners' "Two outs, so what?" year of 116 wins.

DixieZag
12-06-2009, 09:52 AM
Some undisputable points:

1. Some of the more negative things said are true, we would have won without the Harris incident.

2. We do have a free throw issue at this point.

3. Uber is as correct as BZ, this team could be 4-4 as easily as 8-0 and we were bound to get burned by our need to comeback.

BUT

Many Many Positives;

1. Much of the angst is b/c we got beat at home which just doesn't happen and seems to worry people more than other losses.

2. Right now we are learning that we have more options than we thought.

3. The team is young and looking less young each game, Few is doing his best coaching job that I have ever seen.

4. Our Freshman are allowing us to even have the luxury of tweaking the starting lineup, I honesly think that we should seriously consider starting Matt and Steven at guard and starting Manny Arop at small forward, in case anyone hasn't noticed, he doesn't shoot much, but he doesn't miss much, he is EVERYWHERE and I believe could be an offensive force. Bol Kong is close to getting 20 minutes somewhere.

5. Wake played by FAR their best game of the year and we still almost won after all that adversity, we were one missed shot by them or one made 3 pointer by us from winning.

I can say all these things only the day after the game, I was as mad as anyone last night, so mad I might have gotten neg repped for calling BZ a Zag apologist, but he is right, mostly.

Still sucks right now. Will not matter in 2 weeks except for what the team learned.

BobZag
12-06-2009, 10:23 AM
Did anyone else see how Mangisto would hustle after missed Fts, sneaking aound the guy inside of him? Love this kid. It looked like he is earning lots of trust from Few.

4-4, 6-2, 8-0... It's a fine line. 6-2 speaks well of this team's tenacity.

I do like the identity this team is forging. Kind of a Die Hard mentality.

DixieZag
12-06-2009, 11:13 AM
Yeah, I noticed that also. Also noticed;

He has a lot of putbacks for points.

He guards like he is protecting the crown.

He shoots only when it is his last option, but when he does, the arc is beautiful, the rotation slow and perfect and it barely hits the net on its way through.

He will be asked to shoot more, a lot more.

abarefootboy
12-06-2009, 04:37 PM
bobzag ... your words are better'n Tums

MickMick
12-06-2009, 07:13 PM
Wow, that is kind of going along with the Party and being a party pooper too :D

On another very sad note our RPI went from a ranking of #8 to #44 in one single game. The why will be lost come tourney time, there will be a bounce back, but the damage is done and cannot be fixed until March. It is a game we should have won.

Wouldn't you like to be a pooper too?

On another positive note. We are better then we were expected to be. We also have a great schedule and a better WCC conference this year. SMC has a higher RPI right now! I am so confused, I think I should have a drink! :D

Wake's RPI will jump when they start ACC play. Even if they don't do well. RPI is partially adjusted adjusted by your opponent's record and your opponenet's opponent record. With respect to RPI, there are far more damaging losses than to an ACC team.

With respect to RPI, I hate the idea of relying on it. The WCC historically can't rely on it. I'll say this once again. RPI is for 19-20 win BCS bubble teams. If the Zags can't win the WCC conference tournament, perhaps they are not worthy of a NCAA bid. If they win the conference regular season schedule, and lose in the conference tournament, their scheduling allows for an opportunity to get an at large bid. Teams that qualify for post season need to take advantage of that opportunity. So far, Gonzaga has done so by winning Maui.

The only other factor for RPI is seeding. We have come to the point that anything less than advancing two rounds as somewhat dissapointing. I don't know about you, but I have reached the point where I feel that Gonzaga is a good enough program to typically advance two rounds. Guess what? After two rounds, seeding doesn't mean a hill of beans. All the teams that remain are very, very good. In the end, either you have a top 16 team or you don't....proven on the court. The seeding is of little help at that point.


RPI is for the Washington Huskies. Not Gonzaga.

bballbeachbum
12-06-2009, 07:23 PM
RPI is for the Washington Huskies. Not Gonzaga.

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

as for the promising big picture...without any disrespect at anyone, but still most sincerely....

No $h1t Sherlock!!!

and loving it :)

GO TEAM ZAGS!!!

CDC84
12-06-2009, 08:45 PM
I would be surprised if Wake doesn't finish in the upper half of the ACC. That team has some serious talent on it. They just need more consistent 3 point shooting and to use the Gonzaga win to start forming a team identity.