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FieldHouseFishHouse
12-05-2009, 02:52 PM
But I never learned to box out like that. I'm a bit ashamed for this team right now, for several reasons. Still 15 min left to go, and 20+ games after that. There is always time for some redemption.

JeffyJeff
12-05-2009, 03:40 PM
Elias WAY overreacted to MacFarland's elbow (I was yelling at the TV for the foul before Elias retaliated). Did Harris have a right to be upset about that elbow he received? Absolutely. That being said, his response deserved the resulting ejection.

All of that being said, I was very glad to see MacFarland get called for the elbow late in the game. He was using them all game long.

xjzico
12-05-2009, 03:55 PM
Yep, Elias earns the dunce cap.

bartruff1
12-05-2009, 04:01 PM
A sad day for Gonzaga Basketball.....Harris has shamed the team and hurt a reputation built over many years...

MickMick
12-05-2009, 04:01 PM
Give credit where it is due. Wake Forest was the better team today.

They found their outside shot against the zone and their lightning quick guard would not be denied.

Zags are a hurting unit without the services of Harris. With Harris, they win this game. It should be clear to all of us how much Harris means to the fortunes of this team.

Zags were killed on the boards and by their defense down the stretch. Two areas where they have been strong to this point. Sacre and Olynyk were beaten consistently for rebounds in the Wake Forest run.

Kong's emergence was encouraging. Arop played well.

Crusader Rick
12-05-2009, 04:03 PM
Very hard to be a GU fan this week after the crap on Wednesday towards Casto and this bonehead play today.

bartruff1
12-05-2009, 04:08 PM
Harris cut the heart out of the Zags ...there is no way to put a happy face on this....he should be suspended ...

75Zag
12-05-2009, 04:16 PM
If I might, I would make the observation that elite NCAA basketball is not about puppies and rainbows and choirboys. Harris was feeling aggressive tonight, but that aggression might well carry GU further in the NCAA than it has gone before. Ron Artest, Kermit Washington, 'Sheed Wallace and ..... E Harris? The first three were definitely not choirboys, but some very high level talent that helped win championships.

Go Bulldogs! Get Bigger!

Crusader Rick
12-05-2009, 04:19 PM
If I might, I would make the observation that elite NCAA basketball is not about puppies and rainbows and choirboys. Harris was feeling aggressive tonight, but that aggression might well carry GU further in the NCAA than it has gone before. Ron Artest, Kermit Washington, 'Sheed Wallace and ..... E Harris? The first three were definitely not choirboys, but some very high level talent that helped win championships.

Go Bulldogs! Get Bigger!

If that's the way to win a championship, I'm not on the band wagon.

surfmonkey89
12-05-2009, 04:19 PM
You're seriously comparing Harris to those guys?

What is wrong with you?

JAGzag
12-05-2009, 04:19 PM
Harris cut the heart out of the Zags ...there is no way to put a happy face on this....he should be suspended ...

+1

And yet, I was proud how the team still bounced back and came close ... Free throws were pathetic again, absolutely killed us as a team.

xjzico
12-05-2009, 04:20 PM
A sad day for Gonzaga Basketball.....Harris has shamed the team and hurt a reputation built over many years...
It will take a little more then this to tarnish what the Zags have achieved. Gerald Henderson's foul on Hansbrough didn't shame Duke, or Henderson, forever. It was overzealous on Harris' part and fortunately for him the Wake guy wasn't seriously injured.

billyberu
12-05-2009, 04:22 PM
My thoughts:


Harris' elbow shiver cost us this game as players and coaches were clearly stunned after his ejection

Manny Arop had his best game.

Bol Kong had his best game.

Robert Sacre and Kelley Olynyk are not good rebounders.

Steven has not been clutch as of late. If he hits his free throws it's a different outcome.


I'll say this about Elias' ejection. It was unfortunate and it led to the eventual outcome of this game. However, some of the posters on this board need to consider that Harris made a mistake and that he and the team will recover. If you're more concerned about reputation than the person than perhaps people do not matter to you as much as image. What does that say about you?

jazzdelmar
12-05-2009, 04:22 PM
more than the harris play, more than Gray's poor shooting, and more that 13 missed FTs, what is most concerning is Sacre's ebbing effectiveness over the past few games....

mnzag24
12-05-2009, 04:23 PM
Harris cut the heart out of the Zags ...there is no way to put a happy face on this....he should be suspended ...

i agree. i didnt think they were the better team what-so-ever. no reason to talk about the "ifs" but we are clearly better than they are.

MikeGallego
12-05-2009, 04:24 PM
You've all created this mythical "Zag Material" that's so impossible to live up to, (mostly because it's completely self-defined) that when a guy makes a play IN THE HEAT OF THE MOMENT IN A BASKETBALL GAME that doesn't sit well with you, you freak the hell out.

Why do I continue to be surprised every time I read something ridiculous posted here?

Air Force Zag
12-05-2009, 04:28 PM
I think Elias' temper is a "live by the sword, die by the sword" situation. What makes him a good player...also can get out of control.

Wish we could bottle a little of Elias' aggression and give it to Steven (offensively only). If Steven played offense in the same fashion he's been playing defense, then no worries.

The story tonight is poor foul shooting. Hit a few more free throws and we're talking about what a close call this whole thing was tonight.

MickMick
12-05-2009, 04:31 PM
Spot on.

The squeaky clean types can get off the bus now.

And your post is the most realistic response yet.



You've all created this mythical "Zag Material" that's so impossible to live up to, (mostly because it's completely self-defined) that when a guy makes a play IN THE HEAT OF THE MOMENT IN A BASKETBALL GAME that doesn't sit well with you, you freak the hell out.

Why do I continue to be surprised every time I read something ridiculous posted here?

FieldHouseFishHouse
12-05-2009, 04:32 PM
You've all created this mythical "Zag Material" that's so impossible to live up to, (mostly because it's completely self-defined) that when a guy makes a play IN THE HEAT OF THE MOMENT IN A BASKETBALL GAME that doesn't sit well with you, you freak the hell out.

Why do I continue to be surprised every time I read something ridiculous posted here?

I think most of the stuff that has been said has been pretty level headed. My first reaction was: Few is going to toss this guy for the season (and that probably would have been the start of Harris' pro career), and he probably deserves it.
After a couple beers and some deep thoughts (and seeing the recurring elbows MacFarland was throwing, not an excuse but still...), I think he will sit for a game and that will be that.
This happens once in a while, let it be a lesson to the rest of the Zags of what not to do.
The worst we have seen for a while (on the court) is Ammo's potty mouth. This is kind of a shock compared to that.

JAGzag
12-05-2009, 04:32 PM
You've all created this mythical "Zag Material" that's so impossible to live up to, (mostly because it's completely self-defined) that when a guy makes a play IN THE HEAT OF THE MOMENT IN A BASKETBALL GAME that doesn't sit well with you, you freak the hell out.

Why do I continue to be surprised every time I read something ridiculous posted here?

Something tells me you didn't actually go to Gonzaga.

JohnOGU
12-05-2009, 04:32 PM
I'll probaly receive numerous neg reps for this, but im glad Elias did that. Ive watched Mcfarland numerous times because I am a fan of WF ball, and he is definitely a dirty player. Granted we would have won the game if Elias had stayed in, but you can blame poor free throw shooting for this loss. That is unacceptable.

Elias didn't cut into any reputation or harm our image. He made a statement of toughness. Something we haven't had for quite some time.

We needed this game anyways. A game where we didn't have oneof our big guns and had to rely on others. Bol and Manny showed up in a big way.

At the end of the day, we stll should have won this game. Blame poor FT shooting for the loss.

Pargo the Destroyer
12-05-2009, 04:33 PM
The ejection was warranted. However, we had a chance to tie the game with 8 seconds. It didn't happen, no point in blaming anyone, including Harris. We just didn't get it done. I'm happy Harris wants to display toughness, as much as alot of you pissed and moaned last year about not being tough, now, we are tougher, however his forearm shiver was not the way to do it. He will be fine, the team will be fine.

surfmonkey89
12-05-2009, 04:34 PM
You've all created this mythical "Zag Material" that's so impossible to live up to, (mostly because it's completely self-defined) that when a guy makes a play IN THE HEAT OF THE MOMENT IN A BASKETBALL GAME that doesn't sit well with you, you freak the hell out.

Why do I continue to be surprised every time I read something ridiculous posted here?

Totally agree. The fans are more embarrassing than the team right now.

MikeGallego
12-05-2009, 04:35 PM
Something tells me you didn't actually go to Gonzaga.

Why does something tell you that? Because I don't buy the Zag Material garbage? (I did go to Gonzaga, for whatever reason that matters.)

bartruff1
12-05-2009, 04:36 PM
+1

And yet, I was proud how the team still bounced back and came close ... Free throws were pathetic again, absolutely killed us as a team. Your right....at least some of them tried to play thru the situation....especially Matt ...of course....I imagine that is a very awkward and sad locker room ....this will likely be a important factor in the rest of the season...hopefully something positive...

LAZAGFAN11
12-05-2009, 04:36 PM
I'm no basketball genius, but in watching that play by Elias, it sort of looked like the guy flopped. Yes, it was a high placed forearm but, the guy just went straight down. I don't think there was as much malicious intent as ESPN and Steve Lavin made it out to be. And looking at coach Few's surprised reaction to the ref's ruling, I doubt he suspends Elias at all. Honestly, I felt that the play deserved a technical but not an ejection. I bet this is coach Few and Co.'s opinion as well.

Give credit to GU's resilience with this game. Wake Forest is still a really good team and the Zags should have nothing to be ashamed of (other that that free throw shooting). Here's what the team learned tonight:
1) As good of a defender Steven Gray is, the team just cannot afford him to play only defense. He has to be a 2-way player for the Zags.
2) Gonzaga has to establish the inside game early. Sacre has to get involved early as it will open up the wings even more for Matt and Steven.
3) Rebounding is going to be the life-line of this team. 16 offensive boards for Wake = loss.
4) Arop and Bol Kong can step up. This bench is now deeper that it was last night.


This team still has great opportunities down the road (duke, Memphis . . ). Get finals over with and don't have a let down like last year (Portland State) with Davidson. Zags are 6 points from being 8-0.

xjzico
12-05-2009, 04:37 PM
Spot on.

The squeaky clean types can get off the bus now.

And your post is the most realistic response yet.
Whatever, that was just a stupid impulsive play, and I actually agree with you on the Zag material business. It's really here nor there on what style of basketball one should play because that was out of line. As much as I dogged Cincy's play, from what I saw none of those guys approached what Harris did. It was a real poor lapse of concentration on the part of one of our guys.

FuManShoes
12-05-2009, 04:37 PM
A sad day for Gonzaga Basketball.....Harris has shamed the team and hurt a reputation built over many years...

Please.

WallaWallaZag
12-05-2009, 04:40 PM
@ johnogu -- elias certainly didn't need to throw a forearm shiver to prove he was tough, or that the zags are now a tough team...everyone nationally had already acknowledge this team was different in terms of toughness.

agree with your other point...it was good to give kong and manny meaningful minutes and even better that they produced...this game will have long term benefits as a result. getting those guys game action against wake is different then say augustana. their response bodes well for the future!

GonzagasaurusFlex
12-05-2009, 04:42 PM
My thoughts:


Harris' elbow shiver cost us this game as players and coaches were clearly stunned after his ejection

Manny Arop had his best game.

Bol Kong had his best game.

Robert Sacre and Kelley Olynyk are not good rebounders.

Steven has not been clutch as of late. If he hits his free throws it's a different outcome.


I'll say this about Elias' ejection. It was unfortunate and it led to the eventual outcome of this game. However, some of the posters on this board need to consider that Harris made a mistake and that he and the team will recover. If you're more concerned about reputation than the person than perhaps people do not matter to you as much as image. What does that say about you?

I agree Harris and the team will bounce back from his unfortunate mistake today, but I don't think it led to the outcome of the game. The team's confidence was shaken, but we still played well enough to win. What cost us the game, imho, is the lack of production from either Steven Gray or Robert Sacre...and Meech too to some degree. There also seemed to be a lack of leadership on the court by Bouldin and Gray....didn't see either get animated, call the team together (like before free throws) and inspire confidence.

mnzag24
12-05-2009, 04:43 PM
I'm no basketball genius, but in watching that play by Elias, it sort of looked like the guy flopped. Yes, it was a high placed forearm but, the guy just went straight down. I don't think there was as much malicious intent as ESPN and Steve Lavin made it out to be. And looking at coach Few's surprised reaction to the ref's ruling, I doubt he suspends Elias at all. Honestly, I felt that the play deserved a technical but not an ejection. I bet this is coach Few and Co.'s opinion as well.

i COMPLETELY agree. no question that the play was uncalled for and deserved a technical foul, but McFarland is a big dude and that shot shouldn't have taken him down.

TM27
12-05-2009, 04:43 PM
more than the harris play, more than Gray's poor shooting, and more that 13 missed FTs, what is most concerning is Sacre's ebbing effectiveness over the past few games....


You've all created this mythical "Zag Material" that's so impossible to live up to, (mostly because it's completely self-defined) that when a guy makes a play IN THE HEAT OF THE MOMENT IN A BASKETBALL GAME that doesn't sit well with you, you freak the hell out.

Why do I continue to be surprised every time I read something ridiculous posted here?

My thoughts exactly!!!! I am trying to think of how many times during pick-up games, practice, games, etc that someone loses their temper....I think I am up to a million examples. Harris was an idiot for a brief moment in time. he will admit it, Few will admit it....everyone move along. Guaranteed the kid cried the entire second half sitting in his shorts in the locker room. he is not some thug that should be suspended, but I thought you all knew this when loving him over the last few weeks?

What the heck is wrong with Sacre? Seriously, is he injured? He D and box out is a step slower than most out there. His rotations were terrible and he was out of position for too many rebounds. Wake is athletic, but so is Rob. I am glad he sat most of the second half cause the fire was missing for the second straight game. He built his rep on working his ass off in practice....so I ask where is that Bobby?

FieldHouseFishHouse
12-05-2009, 04:43 PM
I'm no basketball genius, but in watching that play by Elias, it sort of looked like the guy flopped. Yes, it was a high placed forearm but, the guy just went straight down. I don't think there was as much malicious intent as ESPN and Steve Lavin made it out to be. And looking at coach Few's surprised reaction to the ref's ruling, I doubt he suspends Elias at all. Honestly, I felt that the play deserved a technical but not an ejection. I bet this is coach Few and Co.'s opinion as well.

I watched the 300 replays like everyone else, and I WANT to come to the conclusion that this is just an hard (albeit sloppy) box out. But lets be real here, Harris was trying to hurt him/rough him up, plain and simple. That was not about getting a rebound, it was retaliation for MacFarland tossing his elbows around.
Not the worst thing that has ever happened, but so far I think Elias deserves what he got.

bballbeachbum
12-05-2009, 04:44 PM
without excuses, we played young tonight. agree with jazz's list of concerns...roles are shaking out tho

my biggest gut feeling: this is the perfect opportunity to define to this tough but young group exactly what it means to express that toughness through basketball...what is Gonzaga tough, what is basketball tough, what to leave on the street

and Steven, this board knows I love Steven, and he really attacked the basket in the second half but missed big shots...DON'T STOP ATTACKING STEVEN!!! keep shooting open jumpers! yes, you've missed some big shots in the early season...so that means you're going to miss them all all season long?

I do not believe that. DO NOT DISAPPEAR!

I like this team.

GUDan07
12-05-2009, 04:44 PM
I think most of the stuff that has been said has been pretty level headed. My first reaction was: Few is going to toss this guy for the season (and that probably would have been the start of Harris' pro career), and he probably deserves it.
After a couple beers and some deep thoughts (and seeing the recurring elbows MacFarland was throwing, not an excuse but still...), I think he will sit for a game and that will be that.
This happens once in a while, let it be a lesson to the rest of the Zags of what not to do.
The worst we have seen for a while (on the court) is Ammo's potty mouth. This is kind of a shock compared to that.

Are you in insane? How could you ever for even a moment think that what he did tonight would warrant being kicked off the team? IMO it didn't even warrant the ejection that he got. Sure, he got frustrated by the no call and threw an elbow and the guy flopped. If the guy doesn't fall, it might not even be seen and there might not have even been a call. Typical over reaction. In the heat of the moment he gave the guy a shove and it happened to connect a little higher than it should have. He didn't turn around and punch the guy. Let's save the executions for when they are deserved.

TM27
12-05-2009, 04:46 PM
this will likely be a important factor in the rest of the season...hopefully something positive...

Your kidding right?

JohnOGU
12-05-2009, 04:46 PM
This "Zag Material" stuff is getting way out of hand. Elias made a dumb move. So what? Are you going to say next that the entire Kennel Club is not Zag material because they chanted "Casto can't read"? When someone can give me a convincing list of qualifications for "Zag Material" to look over, I MAY buy into it. Until then, just get over it. The kid screwed up. As stated before, I'm sure nobody feels worse about it than him.

MikeGallego
12-05-2009, 04:49 PM
Everyone stay away. I'm too sanctimonious for my own good...or yours.

Edit: Scratch that...I've just (within the last two seconds) kicked the swine out the door.

FieldHouseFishHouse
12-05-2009, 04:50 PM
Are you in insane? How could you ever for even a moment think that what he did tonight would warrant being kicked off the team? IMO it didn't even warrant the ejection that he got. Sure, he got frustrated by the no call and threw an elbow and the guy flopped. If the guy doesn't fall, it might not even be seen and there might not have even been a call. Typical over reaction. In the heat of the moment he gave the guy a shove and it happened to connect a little higher than it should have. He didn't turn around and punch the guy. Let's save the executions for when they are deserved.

Sorry for having an irrational thought once in awhile. But when you are watching a live game and see one of your favorite players turn, aim and crack a guy right in the face for no apparent reason, you tend to fear for the worst.
By the way I actually am insane, that was extremely insensitive of you to use it as an insult.

edited to add: By the way, does it really matter how hard the guy fell? We are talking about the offense. Theoretically speaking, if you shoot someone and miss completely, its still attempted murder.
To Elias, I feel for you, most of us have been there. I hope you level some fool on the way up for a dunk the next time you see the floor.

1973Zag
12-05-2009, 04:52 PM
I AM NOT DEFENDING EH'S ACTION. NO QUESTION HE WENT TO FAR---BUT---there have been more than a couple posts praising his toughness, and warrior mentality, and willingness to go to war under the boards, not back down, and finally have a stopper etc. etc. sometimes a young man responds to where he receives positive feedback. he should,and did/will pay the price for crossing the line, and NO-as a GU grad I'm not proud of the incident-but I'm also not shocked that he crossed the line doing something that we brought him in to do; own the paint. I feel confident you won't see such poor judgement from Mr. Harris again. Like a disappointed parent, I;m not happy with what he did, but I love him just the same

IdahoZagFan
12-05-2009, 04:53 PM
I, too, noticed that the guy went down IMMEDIATELY! And, he popped right back up, too! Perhaps everyone overreacted a little - Elias to begin with because of the hits he was taking, the Wake Forest player by flopping, and the referees for not issuing a technical, rather than an ejection. How much did the flop affect the call?

Remember - this all happened in the blink of an eye. And we probably don't yet know all that was going on or happened and we'll probably never know.

However, hopefully the coaches will review the situation and take what they feel is the appropriate action and we will support them.

And then, let's support our players - everyone of them! They're all young, really, with many stresses and tensions. Let's help our guys prepare for the next game!

MickMick
12-05-2009, 04:53 PM
Everyone stay away. I'm too sanctimonious for my own good...or yours.

I just gave you a shot of green. You deserve it.

bballbeachbum
12-05-2009, 04:56 PM
This "Zag Material" stuff is getting way out of hand. Elias made a dumb move. So what? Are you going to say next that the entire Kennel Club is not Zag material because they chanted "Casto can't read"? When someone can give me a convincing list of qualifications for "Zag Material" to look over, I MAY buy into it. Until then, just get over it. The kid screwed up. As stated before, I'm sure nobody feels worse about it than him.

well to start with, it does not include elbow shivers to the throat..and I agree, Elias must feel worse than anybody, but all can grow from this, the best part about it. Frankly, I think it's great that Elias wants to fight back, but how he chose to fight back is not acceptable...it's not something you just "get over." It has to be addressed and dealt with, not swept under the rug...my 2 cents

FieldHouseFishHouse
12-05-2009, 04:56 PM
I just gave you a shot of green. You deserve it.

Same here, keep fighting....Just keep it off live TV

duper
12-05-2009, 04:56 PM
A technical could have been called if play was going on, but the foul on the shooter by Matt stoped the play therefore the only call was an ejection. Harris had no idea this was going to happen and it was just a heat of the moment thing nothing to warrant any further action.

I saw no reason for the retaliation myself.

DoMieD
12-05-2009, 04:57 PM
A sad day for Gonzaga Basketball.....Harris has shamed the team and hurt a reputation built over many years...


Harris cut the heart out of the Zags ...there is no way to put a happy face on this....he should be suspended ...

Disagree completely with both of these statements.

Had Harris's elbow been a tad lower nothing would of been called, period.

Sarenyon
12-05-2009, 04:58 PM
Not sure what to think on this... Nasty foul yes, but Coach and the NCAA will take care of that... did it lose the game, well it certainly contributed, but NO it did NOT LOSE THIS GAME.

1) Lack of consistant free throw shooting
2) No big inside pressence (I'm looking at you "Bobby")
3) Wake just getting hot from long range... need to better defend the dang 3!!!


These are the elements IMO that lost this game. Would have we needed these things if Harris hadn't made the stupid play? I don't know, but dang folks, let this stuff work itself out... some of you sound as bad as it was around here after Josh got pulled over (another bone headed move, but we survived).

Good to see:
Kong and Arop
Few using alternate lineu-ups
Kelly working some good time.

We WILL be a better team when its all said and done.
Many have said and I said it too, this team will lose some head scratchers due to weird things and/or inexperience on this team... this might have been one of them.

TM27
12-05-2009, 04:59 PM
This would be a perfect place for a poll to find out how many of our posters have actually played basketball ;)

McFarland is smart. he baited a freshman into making a freshman mistake. those two were going at it...watch the first 10 minutes again. McFarland felt that exchange coming a couple possesions before it happened...he had his elbows in others face all the time. Nothing illegal, hard nosed tough bball that in this case pissed Elias off. I imagine that the last elbow caught Elias, McFarland heard him grunt (or maybe he even used a curse word on the bball court...goodness no) and knew a retaliation was coming. elias caught him that is for sure, but if that elbow can floor a 6-10 man, then I want to fight that man to build my own ego.

This is how I see it...

elias = idiot for a brief moment.
Mcfarland = cagey move which he probably learned during his first year when an opponent or teammate baited him into doing something stupid.
Few's response = "elias, you represent us when you wear that jersey. You let your teammates down and trust is the most important thing.... Control your emotions! If you do something that blatent again I will have your ass and you will be in much more trouble. And being as how you sat for most of this game I expect max effort out of you in practice...and you can either runs stairs tonight or all day tomorrow, you big dummy!"

SpokastSports
12-05-2009, 04:59 PM
I don't think suspending Harris is warranted, seeing as he already paid his debt for that play. Saying that, Augustana is a bit of a cupcake and letting Harris suit up but not start or play would send home a message.

What I learned tonight:

I was scolded for thinking Gonzaga could have a backcourt of just Steven and Matt, but the second half proved that Matt can bring the ball up with available outlets
Nothing is holding back this group of newcomers but minutes. It was really interesting to see Manny pull Matt aside when the ball was dead to ask for advice on what he should do.
Free Throws need some improvement. SGs can't miss that often.
When Bol can get some sort of movement or coherence out of the playbook, he will be EVEN MORE deadly.
Grant Gibbs apparently is the middle kid that gets blamed for everything by the officials.
We will miss Matt Bouldin, regardless of the naysayers saying he's solely a "WCC star"
It's going to be interesting to see how the coaches will find a way to answer the lack of respect for MEECH's outside shot and when Rob gets doubled and doesn't get the looks he's used to.

FieldHouseFishHouse
12-05-2009, 05:00 PM
That was a weird perfect storm that resulted in like 12 free throws, 2 Wake possessions and 1 free kick in the collective Zag ass. Ended up with a 7 point swing....and an ejection. Crazy.

SpokastSports
12-05-2009, 05:03 PM
A Seven point possession is a little ridiculous...

GonzagasaurusFlex
12-05-2009, 05:05 PM
I think:
The Zags have plenty of talent and this will be another great year, but this team will not be special without better on-court leadership from Bouldin and Gray when things are falling apart. The team was clearly off kilter, yet every timeout or break in play I never saw Bouldin or Gray rally guys together, get animated, inspire confidence etc... Bouldin played great and yeah, he exhibits a kind of stoic leadership by example...but this young team needs better vocal leadership by the upperclassmen.

Grant Gibbs will be an on-court leader for this team by next year..

SpokastSports
12-05-2009, 05:09 PM
This was no play in the heat of the moment.
That's not true. Harris was getting elbowed all night and lost his cool. He was heated. Poor decision nonetheless, but definitely in the moment.

Can you find a single example of a player making such a violent dangerous move in the HISTORY of Gonzaga ball? I don't remember one. This "Inicident" needs to be taken seriously.
Bakari Hendrix's elbow in a tourney where he was suspended 14 games his senior year seems familiar...

jayray
12-05-2009, 05:10 PM
A sad day for Gonzaga Basketball.....Harris has shamed the team and hurt a reputation built over many years...

You have shamed these message boards. I guess you weren't around for all the Morrison shenanigans. And you obviously have never played in a competitive sport and know what it is like to get emotionally tied up in a game. It is indeed a sad day, a sad day to come on here and listen to people like you make comments like these.

d2zag
12-05-2009, 05:11 PM
I'm no basketball genius, but in watching that play by Elias, it sort of looked like the guy flopped. Yes, it was a high placed forearm but, the guy just went straight down. I don't think there was as much malicious intent as ESPN and Steve Lavin made it out to be. And looking at coach Few's surprised reaction to the ref's ruling, I doubt he suspends Elias at all. Honestly, I felt that the play deserved a technical but not an ejection. I bet this is coach Few and Co.'s opinion as well.

Agreeeed. For those of you that know hockey, McFarland reminded me of what Peter Forsberg used to do all the time. Forsberg used to dive allll the time, and was basically the reason why the NHL started the "diving call," or embellishing the foul. If this were a hockey game, this would have been a borderline diving call. McFarland had given Elias an elbow, and Elias retaliated. But McFarland knew this was going to happen, so when he saw Elias about to knock him down, he thought to himself 'alright, im gonna go down, and try to get a foul call.' He embellished it bigtime. It's so obvious.

TM27
12-05-2009, 05:13 PM
If you cannot see that THE FANS, THE COACHES and ALL THE PLAYERS were ALL "freaked the hell out" then I think you have a problem. This was no play in the heat of the moment. This is a clear problem that must be addressed (and Few will make the right descision about what to do about it.)

This is not at all related to "toughness" but rather "dangerous", is embarassing for everyone and has no place at all on the basketball court.

Can you find a single example of a player making such a violent dangerous move in the HISTORY of Gonzaga ball? I don't remember one. This "Inicident" needs to be taken seriously.

I am so confused? This crap happens ALL THE TIME! Maybe I need to revisit it because it appeard to me that he was caught in between wanting to give this kid a shiner and box him out so hard he landed in the third row. McFarland flopped like he got knocked out and Elias thought "oh sh*t, busted". If it was a blatent as you make it out to be...my guess would be that Mark Few would not be yelling at the ref, "You have got to be kidding me" when he was told of the ejection. This is the second time you mention this """(and Few will make the right descision about what to do about it."""" I scared to ask but what do you think should be his decision?

SpokastSports
12-05-2009, 05:15 PM
If it was going on "all night" then it was not in the heat of the moment.

I think you're missing the moment. The moment was when he reacted after yet another one that knocked him off kilter.

xjzico
12-05-2009, 05:17 PM
I'm sorry I watched the replay on the ESPN link from Zagnative and I think Harris flat out nailed that dude. The Wake guy didn't need to embellish at all. It seems in some peoples minds Harris had to break the guys nose to get thrown out.

bballbeachbum
12-05-2009, 05:19 PM
maybe McFarlin embellished, so what? Elias tried to smack him, give Elias credit for looking to whack him back, but he wasn't smart about it; he will be, my opinion

those of you saying you're such ballers and this stuff is cool, come on, what a bunch of bs...someone does that on the street and dudes are sqauring off, are you kidding me?

Saxon_zag
12-05-2009, 05:20 PM
Wow some of you are absolute lunatics..

Shamed the school? Things happen on the court sometimes and really it wasn't even that hard of a blow.. the mcfarland kid flopped on it as well.. Notice he got right back up and stayed in the game? give me a break... Saying elias shamed the school makes you an idiot and is the type of Elitist attitude some gonzaga alum has that just makes me sick... ew

Elias is a great player and made a mistake.. mcfarland threw elbows all game and ended up fouling out on one fittingly

sure the ejection was deserved.. i don't think he should be suspended... some of you take it way too far.. JohnnyGonzaga kissing elias' butt one game and when he makes one mistake turning your back on him and acting as if he has forever shamed gonzaga.. just go away

TexasZagFan
12-05-2009, 05:21 PM
This would be a perfect place for a poll to find out how many of our posters have actually played basketball ;)

McFarland is smart. he baited a freshman into making a freshman mistake. those two were going at it...watch the first 10 minutes again. McFarland felt that exchange coming a couple possesions before it happened...he had his elbows in others face all the time. Nothing illegal, hard nosed tough bball that in this case pissed Elias off. I imagine that the last elbow caught Elias, McFarland heard him grunt (or maybe he even used a curse word on the bball court...goodness no) and knew a retaliation was coming. elias caught him that is for sure, but if that elbow can floor a 6-10 man, then I want to fight that man to build my own ego.

This is how I see it...

elias = idiot for a brief moment.
Mcfarland = cagey move which he probably learned during his first year when an opponent or teammate baited him into doing something stupid.
Few's response = "elias, you represent us when you wear that jersey. You let your teammates down and trust is the most important thing.... Control your emotions! If you do something that blatent again I will have your ass and you will be in much more trouble. And being as how you sat for most of this game I expect max effort out of you in practice...and you can either runs stairs tonight or all day tomorrow, you big dummy!"

+1

And McFarland's 5th foul (on Kelly) was a make-up call for all the 'bows McFarland was dishing out tonight.

Harris was deservedly ejected, and will be a marked man with the officials for the next several weeks. You can expect other teams to try and bait him, at least until he demonstrates that tonight was a one time occurrence.

TM27
12-05-2009, 05:22 PM
I make it blatent? He was ejected from the game, remember? It was blatant.

You are right I should have made it more clear....I am talking about this being the worst thing in GU history. It was blatent enough to get ejected. It wasnt a fight, it wasnt a punch, it wasnt...ahh nevermind lets agree to disagree. D1 basketball is very physical...I do think Elias was trying to send him a message, I do not think he was trying to knock him out.

FieldHouseFishHouse
12-05-2009, 05:22 PM
This is the second time you mention this """(and Few will make the right descision about what to do about it."""" I scared to ask but what do you think should be his decision?

Speaking for myself, If Mark Few allows me to choose who to decide what I think Few should decide to do...it will be Mark Few.

SpokastSports
12-05-2009, 05:22 PM
He is not a 4 year old child. He is 20 years old.

Nice non-sequitur. If your argument is it wasn't in the heat of the moment you're wrong. There can be reasoning in madness. He made the wrong decision and did not live up to the apparent 20 year old guidelines. But to say he was planning that for awhile (you did say it wasn't in the moment, right?) seems far fetched. He lost his composure.

YoungBuck95
12-05-2009, 05:25 PM
no offense to your fans, but every time the tv cameras panned over the students and crowd, they were swearing constantly....absolutely no claass

SpokastSports
12-05-2009, 05:26 PM
Yep. Sitting right behind them, they were also flipping off Wake fans and refs. They lost their composure too. Or were they planning that?... I wonder how many of them were 20 years old...

Saxon_zag
12-05-2009, 05:26 PM
no offense to your fans, but every time the tv cameras panned over the students and crowd, they were swearing constantly....absolutely no claass

Wait college kids were swearing? Clearly gonzaga is the only university to have this epidemic going on within their student secition. I'll alert the university

Saxon_zag
12-05-2009, 05:28 PM
Johnny you think this is the worst thing in the history of gu? you think he was going for a knockout blow? 1 mistake by a new freshmen .... do you want elias kicked off the team? garbage.

YoungBuck95
12-05-2009, 05:29 PM
Wait college kids were swearing? Clearly gonzaga is the only university to have this epidemic going on within their student secition. I'll alert the university

not only were they just swearing and all. they were swearing at the players and refs and coaches of wake. that shows absolutely no respect

SunDevilGolfZag
12-05-2009, 05:29 PM
Disagree completely with both of these statements.

Had Harris's elbow been a tad lower nothing would of been called, period.

I believe you are correct. I watched the replay probably 15 times. The same "shiver" to the gut is a no call. I doubt there was malicious intent to hit him exactly in the chops. I'll concede though that it sure did look bad. It might cost Elias one more game, but it is time to move on. Just my opinion.
edit -- the flagrant foul by the Georgia guy on Pargo in the arena was worse -- again, just my opinion

surfmonkey89
12-05-2009, 05:31 PM
The fans melted down as much (or more) than the players, and it fed into the play on the court.

I don't know what happened today, but it was not a good showing by the players, students or fans. As I said in another thread, I think everyone needs to chill for a few days.

SpokastSports
12-05-2009, 05:31 PM
I agree to an extent with SunDevilGolfZag and DoMieD,

It looked Harris was aiming at his chest and missed.

SpokastSports
12-05-2009, 05:33 PM
Johnny, you being one of the guys exclaiming how much more you want Elias over Austin Daye in that other thread, has anything changed? Surely Austin's pouting isn't to the degree of "ENDANGERING" a player or making, as you said, the worst mistake in GU history...

FuManShoes
12-05-2009, 05:34 PM
That was a weird perfect storm that resulted in like 12 free throws, 2 Wake possessions and 1 free kick in the collective Zag ass. Ended up with a 7 point swing....and an ejection. Crazy.

This is what I'm trying to figure out. They kick the guy out, they asses a T, they asses a foul. Where did all these other free throws and possesions come from? McFarland wasn't even injured. This seemed excessive. Was it so much worse than the shoves exchanged with Cincy.

PS - mcFarland deserves MVP of this game. He singlehandedly changed the complexion of the game with savvy, acting and then clutch free throws. The Zags should have fouled his and Aminu's asses out long before crunch time. They didn't, and paid the price.

bballbeachbum
12-05-2009, 05:35 PM
I agree to an extent with SunDevilGolfZag and DoMieD,

It looked Harris was aiming at his chest and missed.


fine, if that's your take, then he needs to fix his elbow aim asap...agreed?

Jakester425
12-05-2009, 05:35 PM
Its not like the guy got caught with shrooms or anything. This team will be ok, Harris will be ok.

Saxon_zag
12-05-2009, 05:36 PM
WAnt me to name you some other gu players that have made mistakes on or off the court? This stuff happens.

TM27
12-05-2009, 05:36 PM
[QUOTE=FuManShoes;493813]This is what I'm trying to figure out. They kick the guy out, they asses a T, they asses a foul. Where did all these other free throws and possesions come from? McFarland wasn't even injured. This seemed excessive. Was it so much worse than the shoves exchanged with Cincy.

[QUOTE]

Mattie fouled the three point shooter = 3 FT's and then the (2FT + possesion) for flagarent foul. 5 total ft's and possesion

SpokastSports
12-05-2009, 05:36 PM
Tell me of another freshman in GU history who did that?

Not a freshman, but again, Bakari Hendrix elbowed a Hawaii player and was suspended. If you're not familiar with Mr. Hendrix, he was a very talented player in the early years of the excellent decade.

Saxon_zag
12-05-2009, 05:39 PM
Mcfarland had a better chance of hanging himself from the net going up for a rebound than getting killed from a forearm to his neck that he embellished..

SpokastSports
12-05-2009, 05:39 PM
fine, if that's your take, then he needs to fix his elbow aim asap...agreed?

+1 ha, absolutely.
It was a poor decision. He shouldn't have done that. End of discussion. But the discussion that's swelled up is how much we're exaggerating it.

TM27
12-05-2009, 05:40 PM
McFarland could have been killed with an elboy to the throat like that. Thank goodness that did not happen!

Oh my goodness...this is where we are now? I have to log off now this is too crazy. This is insane, and Texas doesnt deserve to be in the BCS title game.
Goodnight all

NEC26
12-05-2009, 05:40 PM
Matt Bouldin fouled the 3 point shooter. -- Three shots. Flagarent foul -- shots plus possession, Meech slamming the ball -- T. That is what happened.

McFarland could have been killed with an elboy to the throat like that. Thank goodness that did not happen!

While he was definitely out of line and deserved his ejection I think you are overreacting a bit. That said there is a big difference between playing tough and being stupid. Absolutely no call for what he did.

SpokastSports
12-05-2009, 05:40 PM
Do you have any video of that play?

No video (it was before GU got the nice contracts they get now) but there are plenty of articles out there. He severely broke a kid's nose.

SpokastSports
12-05-2009, 05:41 PM
McFarland could have been killed with an elboy to the throat like that. Thank goodness that did not happen!

...You're not real...

Saxon_zag
12-05-2009, 05:42 PM
HE could have been killed.... my god

RenoZag
12-05-2009, 05:42 PM
Why do I continue to be surprised every time I read something ridiculous posted here?

You haven't been reading here very long ?

Jakester425
12-05-2009, 05:43 PM
Matt Bouldin fouled the 3 point shooter. -- Three shots. Flagarent foul -- shots plus possession, Meech slamming the ball -- T. That is what happened.

McFarland could have been killed with an elboy to the throat like that. Thank goodness that did not happen!

Seriouslly??? Thats a bit extreme.

bballbeachbum
12-05-2009, 05:44 PM
there is a reason players are ejected for plays like that above the shoulders...straight up, if Elias' elbow had made full contact in there, yikes, OK?
would have sent me into next year!

Saxon_zag
12-05-2009, 05:49 PM
You never heard of someone getting killed by a full blow to the throat? Google it.

They are playing a sport, there were a lot more dangerous things that had a better chance of killing someone out there tonight... but to even mention it is insanely excessive

westside-zagfan
12-05-2009, 05:50 PM
We saw another freshman prove he can handle "real" minutes, that person is Bol Kong. Someone mentioned earlier that Bol only hit those because wake did not expect him to shoot any 3's and then make them. Well now everyone knows he can shoot and the defense will key up on that. So what happens when they start to focus on limiting bol kongs looks from 3? The inside opens up! that will give harris, olynk and sacre more room to work down low. So either way Bol Kong is gonna be effective when he is in the lineup, by stetching the D or just sinking the shots from down town. Another thing we learned, or in this case got reassured of, is that Elias Harris is a freshman. Yeah he lost his cool, so what. He may be 20 but he plays with emotions and i like that in him as long as he keeps the emotions under control. He played so well early we just didnt expect him to make mistakes but he is still a freshman and these learning experiences will happen. A good thing is that this happened tonight and not in March. To say that the flagrant foul will give Gonzaga a negative rep and tarnish their image is just ludacris. Plays like that happen, its part of the game. He got ejected, Mark Few will handle Elias accordingly. We lost this game its done and over. Gonzaga gets two good games to grow and improve and then, if my memory serves me correctly, its out to new york to play Duke. A key thing to take from this is to see whether or not this young team can bounce back from a rough home loss and come back the next game like nothing happened and show improvement in areas they struggled at. In basketball a short memory span can be a good thing.

SpokastSports
12-05-2009, 05:50 PM
WOW, how old are you guys? I never said anything such thing. I replied +1 that I would take Elias and this GU TEAM over last years team with Daye.

Johnny, you talked incessantly about Daye's attitude. You have drooled over Harris all season. Don't act like this idea is illegitimately concocted.


Again "the worst mistake in GU history" is a dream you cooked up.
Johnny, you said this earlier (sounds pretty close)...

Can you find a single example of a player making such a violent dangerous move in the HISTORY of Gonzaga ball? I don't remember one. This "Inicident" needs to be taken seriously.


It was the worst burst of violence I have ever seen from a GU player. That is all.
K, cool thnx. That seems like it's kind of... the worst... but not like the worst mistake in Gu history, no.

Wildcat98
12-05-2009, 05:51 PM
Wake fan perspective:

The elbow/forearm from Harris was intended to come in high. In the multitude of replays they showed, you could see him sizing it up. I thought the ejection was warranted. It was a bad mistake by Harris that cost his team dearly.

That said, I have watched Chas McFarland for three full seasons now. He's been involved in more chippy moments than I can recall, and he might be the most Teed-up player in Wake Forest history. I guarantee you that he sold that play like he was trying to win an Oscar. If he wasn't seven feet tall, he's got the acting skills to have been a fine European soccer player. I don't know that his reaction pushed the referees over the edge in ejecting Harris, but it probably didn't hurt any. Chas is a hell of an actor...

jim77
12-05-2009, 05:52 PM
Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. We had Wake on the ropes with Dr. Bouldin carving them to pieces. Then the "incident" happened. Elias got tired of Mcfarland sticking his arms in his face. The refs made the correct call and ejected him....justice done. Lesson: Keep you're cool even if a guy is baiting you...especially when you're 10 up. We gave them a gift to keep them in the game....credit Wake for taking advatage of the situation. I do think Elias should be suspended for 1 game then he needs to move on and help the team win. The kid let his emotions get the best of him..it happens. I don't want to see him neutered but this could have been even more painful if it happens in an NCAA tourney game. Let him sit the next one and then back to action...keep you're head up Elias! Learn and move on. The foul shooting didn't help either....credit the team for scrapping back against a hot shooting Wake team. I was shocked at the turnabout but was NOT surprised that the guys made it close. Meech also let himself get away a bit...he'll be fine too.

On the positve, Arop played HARD..I love that guys heart and Kelly O never dissapoints with his efforts. Kudos to Matt for nearly bringing us back...and to Steven for playing tough "D". I love Kong's sweet stroke...but hate his Handsfirst defensive techniques....he got away with a few. He is getting better though. Lets go out next time and tighten our game and get the "W". GO ZAGS!


P.S. Call Derek Raivio and see if he'lll let you borrow his key to the Kennel....we need lots of freethrows.

Saxon_zag
12-05-2009, 05:53 PM
Wake fan perspective:

The elbow/forearm from Harris was intended to come in high. In the multitude of replays they showed, you could see him sizing it up. I thought the ejection was warranted. It was a bad mistake by Harris that cost his team dearly.

That said, I have watched Chas McFarland for three full seasons now. He's been involved in more chippy moments than I can recall, and he might be the most Teed-up player in Wake Forest history. I guarantee you that he sold that play like he was trying to win an Oscar. If he wasn't seven feet tall, he's got the acting skills to have been a fine European soccer player. I don't know that his reaction pushed the referees over the edge in ejecting Harris, but it probably didn't hurt any. Chas is a hell of an actor...

Well just hold Chas close when he gets home because he very well could have been dead

Saxon_zag
12-05-2009, 05:54 PM
Do you think his ejection was excessive also? I am not saying you are saying that, that is just a question. Players are ejected when basketball gets out of hand and dangerous.

Have to disagree with you an leave it at that


Yea he should have been ejected from the looks of it although listening to what he said post game i don't think he had the intent.

ZagLawGrad
12-05-2009, 05:54 PM
Give credit where it is due. Wake Forest was the better team today....


No.

The lesson today was not respecting your opponent, the rules and the game.

WF was not the better team today. Zags gave this one away in one stupid play.

SpokastSports
12-05-2009, 06:01 PM
K, cool thnx. That seems like it's kind of... the worst... but not like the worst mistake in Gu history, no.


Both of the statement you quoted sound like the same thing to me. Not sure what you are talking about "the worst mistake in Gu history". Never even thought it.

Think about the last quote I gave and the similarities to thinking you said the worst in the HISTORY of GU. Not that far off. I dunno if you're forgetting what you're saying, but you've been villifying Elias this whole thread into something more than a freshman that got upset and lost his composure. If any of you can watch the game again on TV (I recorded it), before they made him go to the locker, Elias looked like he was going to cry. He felt awful about putting his team in that position and was upset at himself for making that mistake. He shouldn't have done it. He'll learn from it.

SpokastSports
12-05-2009, 06:10 PM
Yes. Then why can't you agree that you are claiming it to be the worst mistake in GU history? Granted Josh's was awful, but on the court, in front of 6 grand seems pretty public...
Again, Bakari Hendrix's elbow can't be surpassed by this. Hendrix was a great player, but his swinging elbow was pretty freaking violent.

SpokastSports
12-05-2009, 06:17 PM
Johnny, I'm done trying to debate with you.

Elias v. Josh in the mistake area
Elias v. Bakari in the violence area

You made it clear it was one of the worst things you've ever seen, but I disagree'd. I can't comprehend how you can't comprehend, Go Zags. Go Elias. Let's get better from this swing.

SpokastSports
12-05-2009, 06:42 PM
I gave you negative rep finally because you deserved it for not holding and honest conversation. Learn the difference between a flagarant foul and shrooms.

Sweet Johnny. Thanks I'll try. You may want to learn the difference between the words violence and mistake? Or just read what I posted, it's all whatevz. Glad you think I would honestly care about my reputation with a guy who thought an elbow that was thrown tonight could have killed a kid.

TM27
12-05-2009, 06:49 PM
Can we please lock one of the stranger threads we have had on here in awhile?

SpokastSports
12-05-2009, 06:51 PM
Yeah, as one of the strangest strangers to the strange, I agree.

zag69
12-05-2009, 06:51 PM
Either Gonzaga holds itself to a high standard of sportsmanship or it doesn't (or it doesn't albeit saying it does). If it does, Harris makes an apology to his team and the University and learns from his mistake, the KC cleans up its act, and the players abstain from felonious drug possession.

And Saxon_zag, one can be killed by an elbow to the throat.

LongIslandZagFan
12-05-2009, 06:54 PM
A technical could have been called if play was going on, but the foul on the shooter by Matt stoped the play therefore the only call was an ejection. Harris had no idea this was going to happen and it was just a heat of the moment thing nothing to warrant any further action.

I saw no reason for the retaliation myself.

Wrong in terms of the ejection being the only option. Case in point, look at WCC Championship game last year. Zags started the game 2-0 when Omar Fatman dunked during warmups... that is a technical foul. Technicals do not need to have the game being in play. Heck, Meech's T was after that play was over as well.

That being said, I looked at it this way. Was Harris going in to make the contact? Yes. By the same token, I don't know if he was trying to make the contact as high as he ended up making it. Look, he certainly wanted McFarland to know his displeasure, but I think his aim was a touch off. Regardless of what his overall intentions were, they were going to end up with him being T'd up. Just food for thought.