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Reborn
11-02-2009, 07:56 PM
I only listened to the game on radio, but I do like the analysis by Fox and play by play by Hudson, and their intereactions.

Sounded like a lot of turnovers initially, but the guys settled down. It sounded like everyone played well. Matt stood out of course, and so did Sacre. But of the new players Arop sounded the best. He got a lot of praise by Fox especially for his defense and rebounding. I think he had 10 or 11. He also took very good shots and mostly played as a team member looking for others on offense. But he may have had 10+ which would give him a double double. I can hardly wait to see him play. Olynyk seemed to impress me as did Dower, and Andy too. I think we are stronger down low then I thought, but Alberta may have been short. We just killed them on the boards. Harris seemed to be a beast on the boards too.

Meech did not impress me but I had no visual. Neither did Gray. Gray is really worrying me. 2-9 in first half. Arop really sounds more impressive. GJ impressed me more than Meech. Announcers said he was passing into the post brilliantly. I will say one thing. The Freshmen are as good as I thought they would be. This is one heck of a 2nd team. When subs were in we didn't miss a beat, and some times it sounded like they played better. More hustle I think. Arop seemed to be all over the place. I think he really wants to play. I'm so excited for him.

kylasdad
11-02-2009, 08:14 PM
I totally disagree about Steven. I was excited to see him shoot it every time he was open...so was Few. He patted him on the chest saying good job both times I watched him come out. He is a great shooter and will find his rhythm.

Arop and Harris are going to be awesome.

Man did we miss Sacre last year.

I liked how hard everybody played. Very scrappy as a whole.

ZagNative
11-02-2009, 08:27 PM
I loved what Sacre brought to this game! Arop too.

That was a fun evening, just watching at home on Q-6, but before that, I had butterflies all day, followed by two hours listening to pre-game radio. I'm tuckered!

roxdoc
11-02-2009, 08:53 PM
Sacre showed everything that I had hoped and prayed to come from him this year....and MORE!. Of all the interesting play by our very talented bunch tonight I was most heartened by how Sacre looked.

hockeyzag
11-02-2009, 09:16 PM
Box Score?? Anybody got a Box Score??

Ezag
11-02-2009, 11:12 PM
I am not writing off Steven Gray by a long shot but he seemed a bit hesitant and non-aggressive compared to the newbies tonight. But the veterans all seemed to take a backseat to the newbies. Even Bouldin, who was fantastic looked like he could have scored 40 if he wanted to but let the other guys play and score.

I think it is there way of letting the new guys get a feel and comfort playing in the MAC in front of 6K fans,

seasontixholder
11-03-2009, 04:30 AM
1. The newcomers are passionate. The are not like the offensively skilled but robotic technicians (by comparison) that the team had last year. Arop, GJ, Olynyk, Dower all gamers. Huge strides were made in a few weeks. Adjustment to the speed of the game was accomplished in the case of the two bigger guys.

2. Arop's name is "Man."

3. Dower and Olynyk should play this year.

4. Gray played with more enthusiam, but he needs more drive-and-kickout plays designed for him. His 3 point shot with any kind of movement suffers.

5. Bouldin is a senior and it shows.

6. Achilles heel at the moment is shooting percentage.

7. Sacre must stay healthy. The rest of the taller guys are physically immature.

8. Harris is an unbelievable physical presence. Finishing needs work.

9. The hustle on defense was encouraging. However, once somebody broke past a defender, things got a little ugly. On ball defenders need to back off just a hair. Once the zone is introduced, things could get fun.

10. The press will be very disruptive when Arop, Harris, or GJ are in the mix with Sacre, Bouldin, Gray or Meech.

11. Andy still needs more bulk. Grant is a serviceable D-1 player but his physical skills are surpassed by several newcomers.

12. Bol Kong had better bring fantastic offensive skills it if he expects to outdo the hustlers.

omahazag
11-03-2009, 05:36 AM
thanks for the post-game reviews...keep em' coming

bigblahla
11-03-2009, 05:55 AM
Grant is a serviceable D-1 player but his physical skills are surpassed by several newcomers.

Add what's between his ears and the fact he is big and plays physical and I think Grant will earn his PT.

Just my opinion.

Go !! Zags!!!

willandi
11-03-2009, 06:04 AM
There is a serious need to work on free throws!!! Especially all the bigs, and anybody that drives the lane or shoots from the outside.
I thought the team looked great, but way too many bricks at the line.
Personally, I would like to have been able to tell Foster "Keep up the good effort. In, fact ...DO IT MORE!!!
It looked like after he tried to pass under the basket for a turnover, then, at the other end, had a rebound go off his hands that he deflated some. DON"T!!! Attack the basket, and keep your hands up. I loved the block from behind, the way the guy on the wing had to change his shot so much it was an airball. Loved the switching help out front, and the hustle to get back in position under the hoop. Great picks for the wings. Keep doing that and they'll start to hit you when you roll to the hoop. ( Called the Pick and roll). KEEP IT UP. It will be good.

Reborn
11-03-2009, 06:36 AM
I'm glad Few was pleased, and maybe even a bit excited. It seems like most of the guys played good games and they may appear pretty even, but this will not be one of our tougher games. As the games get tougher, things will get sorted out. They will learn much more this Saturday in the scrimmage against Texas. And then again in Maui. No matter what, they are young and have a lot to learn, and we have a great schedule of games that will help us learn each week. I get the feeling that these guys really want to have a good year, and I really like what Arop says about accepting their roles and doing their job (as assigned by Few). He seems to have a lot of humililty. I can hardly wait to see him play. He seems to play with a lot of intensity. Did he remind any of you like E. Knight? If not who? Sacre appeared to also play with a lot of intensity and hustled all over the place.

Baldwinzag
11-03-2009, 06:40 AM
A small, but encouraging observation was how physically fit the team appeared. I know we don't have the biggest, thickest guys out there(no DeJuan Blairs), but the new-comers seem strong and have tremendous frames to develop muscle and strength--and seem motivated to do so. Players such as Arop, Dower, Harris, Olynyk, etc look like they've already spent some time in the gym this season and still have a ton of room to add muscle. They are going to look and play like beasts when its all said and done.

No matter the outcome of W's & L's, this season is gonna be fun. I can't remember a year we've had so little expectations heading into a season. Every little stride and accomplishment this team makes will be a reason to celebrate and get excited about. I have a feeling every WIN in the WCC will be exciting, unlike the past 10 years. That is awesome. We'll root for the young guys to hustle and just seeing them be competitive or play with heart will be enjoyable. I can't wait. I'm nervous for the team, but excited to watch how hard they'll play and how much they are buying into the "team" concept. Just listen to every interview by Arop, Olynyk, G.J., etc. They all are talking about playing within their roles and having teammates count on them. Its a great thing to hear and something we've been missing for a couple seasons.

Go Zags!!

Baldwinzag
11-03-2009, 06:57 AM
....I really like what Arop says about accepting their roles and doing their job (as assigned by Few). He seems to have a lot of humililty. I can hardly wait to see him play. He seems to play with a lot of intensity. Did he remind any of you like E. Knight? If not who?

Nice post Reborn.

E. Knight wouldn't be an accurate comparison for Arop, considering they're very different players on the court. If anyone on this team resembles E. Knight's "style" or "mojo" on the court, it'd be Elias. Harris is more refined offensively, but the way he floats around the frontcourt, plays defense, natural strength, and athleticism would be more comparable to E. Knight.

Arop, on the otherhand, reminds me of Larry Gurganious with a jump shot and an all-around offensive game. Scary combination for future opponents, IMO. Arop is definitely more efficient on offensive end and seems to understand the game better(higher bball IQ) than LG ever exhibited. I think its a solid comparison for Manny, especially since Arop is similar in height, rebounds with the intensity, and is a solid defender on the ball defender, just like Larry.

Try to imagine LG as a triple-scoring threat and you'll see what I'm referring to...

Zagpower
11-03-2009, 07:05 AM
In Steven's defense, he had several shots that went part way down and popped back out. Just one of those nights for him.

seasontixholder
11-03-2009, 07:39 AM
Arop has a motor that has to be seen in person in order to appreciate. Almost unique. NEVER takes a play off. He will spur his teammates, and will flat wear out opposing players.

NotoriousZ
11-03-2009, 07:43 AM
This game was very encouraging for me. Everybody's working together and hustling for every loose ball. The guards are controlling the flow of the game for the most part and the bigs are cleaning up. I know it was just an exibition against Alberta, but those guys didn't look that bad to me. They started out 5 for 5 with the threes, and I thought, "here we go again." But their shooting came back down to earth and I think our defense had a big part in that.

Oustanding performance for being this early in the season. :clap:

BobZag
11-03-2009, 08:51 AM
My thoughts jibe with seasontixholder. I'll just say, Kelly could very well be a very special player by the time he's a senior. I'm talking AA good. Of the newbies, Arop, Harris, Vilarino, all had real nice moments, but Olynyk, Poling and Dower stood out, imho. Just love their games and how bright they make the future.

GUDan07
11-03-2009, 08:55 AM
I didn't get to see that game last night as I don't live in Spokane and I am grateful for any insight into how the players did and looked last night. With that said, give me a break guys. Some of the long term projections that I'm reading after a preseason game against a Canadian team? Are you kidding? Does anybody really find it surprising that a veteran player like Gray would jog his way through a preseason game? Or the complement of that, I wouldn't look too much into a freshman having a lot of energy and excitement in their first preseason game. And the idea that somehow Stephen Gray is no longer the best three point shooter on this team because he didn't show up against Alberta is preposterous. I've got news for you guys, Gray is one of the best shooters in the nation and hands down the best shooter on the team. Relax everyone, its PRESEASON. Stop with the sweeping conclusions on the smallest of samples, and attempt to use logic and reasonable observation in your takes.

ZagNative
11-03-2009, 08:59 AM
So, GUDann, what you would tell the people from out of town who couldn't see the game and who asked you for your impressions is ...???

bartruff1
11-03-2009, 09:09 AM
In Steven's defense, he had several shots that went part way down and popped back out. Just one of those nights for him. He needs to go to the barber...:) :)

Kiddwell
11-03-2009, 09:11 AM
Olynyk, Poling and Dower stood out, imho. Just love their games and how bright they make the future.

If so, one of either Olynyk or Dower has to redshirt. Can't have three PF's vying for one position in the same graduating class (factoring in Poling's RS, and seeing Olynyk as a 3/4).

And if Elias Harris plays the 4 too, that makes four freshmen vying for one positon, and even more forcefully argues for one of the freshman bigs (at least one) having a "shirt."

:) IMO :)

:]

GUDan07
11-03-2009, 09:18 AM
So, GUDann, what you would tell the people from out of town who couldn't see the game and who asked you for your impressions is ...???

Exactly what you asked me for. Impressions of the game. What happened? Who played well, who didn't. How about something objective like stats? Like I said earlier, I didn't get to see the game and was curious about what happened and am very grateful to anyone that can give me some info. Save me the extrapolations from a preseason game into the regular season. I don't fault people for being excited about the season but the only thing people are serving to do by making these outlandish projections is making themselves look foolish and illogical. I guarantee you the impressions of this team from a preseason game against Alberta will be proven to be a largely inaccurate. Roles will change, rotations will change, chemistry will develop, and intensity will change. Give me the facts and save me the sky is falling op eds until at least the season begins!

DADoZAG
11-03-2009, 09:30 AM
There is a serious need to work on free throws!!! Especially all the bigs, and anybody that drives the lane or shoots from the outside.

While the free throw percentage was down, the form seemed consistently good. The bricks could be a result of legs not quite in game shape yet. It seemed obvious that Few wasn’t pleased either, however.


In Steven's defense, he had several shots that went part way down and popped back out. Just one of those nights for him.

Again, while the shooting percentage was down, I was pleased the way Steven was looking to shoot. Percentage will come.


He needs to go to the barber...:) :)

No way, let Steven be Steven. He's saying something, we just can't hear it yet.

The only discouraging thing for me was Sacre’s habit of dropping the ball in the paint. Don’t dribble, don’t head fake (at least to start out), and don’t drop the ball below your chest. Take it up immediately and cram it down over or through the defender.

I was just giddy about everything else I saw. Wouldn’t want to be Few having to pick the redshirt(s). This is way to early for fans to be making judgements.

Go ZAGS!

spudzag
11-03-2009, 09:38 AM
It would make things easier if one of them would choose to redshirt. There was a post recently that Sam had posted o his Facebook that he was at least considereding RS.

If Andy spells Rob in the center and Kelly spends a little time at the 3 it might help a bit.

It's hard to see how everyone gets time unless Few runs platoons that run and pressure constantly.

JPtheBeasta
11-03-2009, 10:13 AM
Exactly what you asked me for. Impressions of the game. What happened? Who played well, who didn't. How about something objective like stats? Like I said earlier, I didn't get to see the game and was curious about what happened and am very grateful to anyone that can give me some info. Save me the extrapolations from a preseason game into the regular season. I don't fault people for being excited about the season but the only thing people are serving to do by making these outlandish projections is making themselves look foolish and illogical. I guarantee you the impressions of this team from a preseason game against Alberta will be proven to be a largely inaccurate. Roles will change, rotations will change, chemistry will develop, and intensity will change. Give me the facts and save me the sky is falling op eds until at least the season begins!

I have to agree with Dan's sentiment here and come to his defense a little bit. I also didn't get to watch the game and am extremely excited by this team. The comments are great but there is a lot of hyperbole going on. And if you take the opinions of the fans after these two games to heart you have a starting lineup of: GJ, Matt, Arop, Olynyk, and Sacre!
GJ: hasn't had enough time to learn the offense. I know there are a lot of people that are enamoured by him. If you want to say he is a better player than Meech I will grant you that for the sake of argument, but is he ready to run our offense after a scrimmage and a blowout of the Pandas over a guy that performed consistantly well for us last year? Has GJ proven anything against D1 competition?
Matt: according to observations made after last night, is the only good three point shooter we have, and as such, Steven should only drive to the hoop.
Arop: can't start over Steven unless you want to risk losing the guy mentally/emotionally for the season. Few has been trying to engender some leadership out of Steven and starting Arop over him is a giant step backwards. Ray Allen, like all great shooters (such as Steven) has off nights, especially in a game like this where the emotional intensity isn't there. Steven will have to disappear almost completely on both ends of the court to lose his spot, IMO.
Olynyk: leading up to tonight, all of the talk was about how good he is but that his size makes him one of the top prospects for a redshirt. I think Harris has the edge here with his physical maturity. Poling, too, due to experience with the offense, if you want to drop him down to a 4. Then you throw Dower into the mix. This is the only spot up for grabs at this point.
I like the enthusiasm for the new guys. I haven't gotten to see them play in these games or in practice, but I find it hard to imagine them being significantly better than the incumbents to the degree that they start as freshman.

roxdoc
11-03-2009, 11:13 AM
Agree about the over enthusiasm. However, across the board the newbies looked pretty good, against a probable D-2 equivalent team.

Starters are unquestionably still Bouldin, Meech, Gray, Harris, and Sacre. Gray's position is easily in the most jeopardy (Arop). That all said, across the board the replacements for those mentioned above appeared to be quite good and undoubtedly will get even better with more experience. Not just depth, but talented depth at every position was apparent last night which has probably generated the euphoria.

memorial80
11-03-2009, 11:26 AM
I agree that Meech should be and will be the leader of this team from that position. GJ still has a bunch to learn and will be brillant at times this year and will not be as good other times (like most Freshman). I think we'll get more consistency from Meech. Meech is a Very Good player.

I disagree about the D-1 stuff. GJ has played with and against future Pro's all his life...The playing against D-1 level guys not at all an issue with him.

I believe this team will be real good in time. I just think they are a year away, which hurts us because Matt will be gone.




I have to agree with Dan's sentiment here and come to his defense a little bit. I also didn't get to watch the game and am extremely excited by this team. The comments are great but there is a lot of hyperbole going on. And if you take the opinions of the fans after these two games to heart you have a starting lineup of: GJ, Matt, Arop, Olynyk, and Sacre!
GJ: hasn't had enough time to learn the offense. I know there are a lot of people that are enamoured by him. If you want to say he is a better player than Meech I will grant you that for the sake of argument, but is he ready to run our offense after a scrimmage and a blowout of the Pandas over a guy that performed consistantly well for us last year? Has GJ proven anything against D1 competition?
Matt: according to observations made after last night, is the only good three point shooter we have, and as such, Steven should only drive to the hoop.
Arop: can't start over Steven unless you want to risk losing the guy mentally/emotionally for the season. Few has been trying to engender some leadership out of Steven and starting Arop over him is a giant step backwards. Ray Allen, like all great shooters (such as Steven) has off nights, especially in a game like this where the emotional intensity isn't there. Steven will have to disappear almost completely on both ends of the court to lose his spot, IMO.
Olynyk: leading up to tonight, all of the talk was about how good he is but that his size makes him one of the top prospects for a redshirt. I think Harris has the edge here with his physical maturity. Poling, too, due to experience with the offense, if you want to drop him down to a 4. Then you throw Dower into the mix. This is the only spot up for grabs at this point.
I like the enthusiasm for the new guys. I haven't gotten to see them play in these games or in practice, but I find it hard to imagine them being significantly better than the incumbents to the degree that they start as freshman.

murph
11-03-2009, 11:39 AM
I did not get to see the game but all the talk about Harris sounds like he could be a Diamon Simpson type player somewhere down the road, yes/no? I'd be pretty happy with that.

sittingon50
11-03-2009, 12:32 PM
Spoke with someone at the game who made the same comparison, Murph.

Not quite as long but I too would take that in a heartbeat.

seasontixholder
11-03-2009, 01:03 PM
Excuse me but where the hell is the alleged hyperbole on this particular thread? Just about everybody that posted - before the straw man was introduced - had vigorous caveats of varying degrees.

I add some more so that there won't be any false conclusions from the information given: Our starters will be Harris, Meech, Bouldin, Gray and Sacre. The young guys weren't wide-eyed puppies, but brought purposeful energy that we didn't see from previous and recent highly rated Zag recruits. However, their bodies are not as mature as the starters', and therefore will have to wait to challenge their oldsters. But their skill level demonstrated last night - taking into consideration who they played and what time of the year it is - is very high.

And if you think that Arop's high energy is hyperbole, you're in for an eyeopener.

Larrylegend
11-03-2009, 03:49 PM
November 17th will be a day everyone will see GU's players with clear eyes. May I introduce the Michigan State Spartans?

JPtheBeasta
11-04-2009, 12:23 AM
Excuse me but where the hell is the alleged hyperbole on this particular thread? Just about everybody that posted - before the straw man was introduced - had vigorous caveats of varying degrees.

I add some more so that there won't be any false conclusions from the information given: Our starters will be Harris, Meech, Bouldin, Gray and Sacre. The young guys weren't wide-eyed puppies, but brought purposeful energy that we didn't see from previous and recent highly rated Zag recruits. However, their bodies are not as mature as the starters', and therefore will have to wait to challenge their oldsters. But their skill level demonstrated last night - taking into consideration who they played and what time of the year it is - is very high.

And if you think that Arop's high energy is hyperbole, you're in for an eyeopener.

I wasn't referring to this thread only but the cumulative sentiments on this board status post the first two games. Read some more threads and you should understand. I appreciate your "vigorous caviats of varying degrees" statement and do take the posts in question with a grain of salt.
I was not setting up a "straw man"- creating/misrepresenting an opposing argument that not only doesn't represent the issue at hand but is also easy to disprove. Ironically, you have introduced a straw man, as I never claimed that "Arop's energy is hyperbole," but that doesn't really matter. I am of the opinion that people were over-reacting to the performances of the players to date. As stated earlier, I haven't had the pleasure of seeing him play. I will find out soon enough if he is the second coming of Michael Jordan (as suggested more than once on this board in the last 24 hours or so). I'm not poised for an "eyeopener," because I'm not, to use the vernacular, an Arop hater. I usually drink as much kool aid as the next guy when it comes to the Zags.
If Arop beats out Steven or GJ starts over Meech, good for them and the Zags. That just means I was wrong on this one. It wouldn't be the first time.

Respectfully,
Mark

memorial80
11-04-2009, 09:15 AM
To suggest that anyone is in Jordan's world is ridiculous and really does not even deserve a response except an idiot alert. Why would you even put that kind of pressure on kid like that.

Additionally, I don't see GJ or Arop starting on this team this year. I believe both Meech and Gray are currently better to fill that role (I may be wrong). I believe Manny and GJ will have their moments but they are freshman. Meech and Gray will do a very good job. Now next year, all bets are off and you’re going to have to find a way to get them on the floor. But folks, that’s the coaches’ job and I’m sure he’ll make the right decision.

I terms of the Michigan State Game- It has the potential to be very ugly. We have too many unproven guys. The speed and athleticism of that game will be much different then what most of these guys have ever seen. If the game would have been played in Feb, then I think we have a better showing. Playing them the 3rd game of the season will make it tough. I hope I’m wrong.


I wasn't referring to this thread only but the cumulative sentiments on this board status post the first two games. Read some more threads and you should understand. I appreciate your "vigorous caviats of varying degrees" statement and do take the posts in question with a grain of salt.
I was not setting up a "straw man"- creating/misrepresenting an opposing argument that not only doesn't represent the issue at hand but is also easy to disprove. Ironically, you have introduced a straw man, as I never claimed that "Arop's energy is hyperbole," but that doesn't really matter. I am of the opinion that people were over-reacting to the performances of the players to date. As stated earlier, I haven't had the pleasure of seeing him play. I will find out soon enough if he is the second coming of Michael Jordan (as suggested more than once on this board in the last 24 hours or so). I'm not poised for an "eyeopener," because I'm not, to use the vernacular, an Arop hater. I usually drink as much kool aid as the next guy when it comes to the Zags.
If Arop beats out Steven or GJ starts over Meech, good for them and the Zags. That just means I was wrong on this one. It wouldn't be the first time.

Respectfully,
Mark

sonuvazag
11-04-2009, 09:23 AM
I'm all in favor of reasoned responses and less name-calling.

Re: Jordan.

His attitude and approach to the game is something anyone can emulate-regardless of talent-but after his twisted acceptance speech to the hall of fame, I would recommend emulating someone in the same class who was a little more humble had a better sense of humor and remains closer to home... JS.

JMO

JPtheBeasta
11-04-2009, 09:50 AM
I'm all in favor of reasoned responses and less name-calling.

Re: Jordan.

His attitude and approach to the game is something anyone can emulate-regardless of talent-but after his twisted acceptance speech to the hall of fame, I would recommend emulating someone in the same class who was a little more humble had a better sense of humor and remains closer to home... JS.

JMO

I saw that John Stockton speech and it blew me away. I never really knew much about him as person- always respected and liked him as a player, but I appreciate him a great deal more now. I like MJ, but it seems that Stockton is more at peace with his life and career, even though he doesn't have the championships.

Reborn
11-04-2009, 11:12 AM
To suggest that anyone is in Jordan's world is ridiculous and really does not even deserve a response except an idiot alert. Why would you even put that kind of pressure on kid like that.

I don't think anyone but you, Memorial80 even suggested Arop was in Michael's "world." And we certainly were not talking about his acceptance speech into the Hall of Fame. I know for me, I merely said he had hops like Michael, could play defense like Jordan (which many people never mention, and has a nice fall away jumper like Jorday in his midrange game. And to think that one or two bloggers who made the comparisons to Jordan are putting "that kind of preassure" on him really makes me laugh. If that puts preassure on him then he certainly is not like Jordan. I was a basketball player once, and I can tell you I wish I had been compared to Jordan. I'll give you a hint, Memorial, Manny likes preassure. No he thrives on it. That's also another comparrison to anyone who is great at this wonderful game.

cjm720
11-04-2009, 12:08 PM
Any kind of comparisons to Michael Jordan and you will receive heat. He's the best basketball player the world has ever seen, and to compare a young Zag to him is way premature and very very very likely inaccurate in the long run. Of course, I've always hated comparisons...

I really think Manny will be a special player for the Zags, and I can only hope he has a healthy four years with us.

Go Zags!!!

sonuvazag
11-04-2009, 12:27 PM
Any kind of comparisons to Michael Jordan and you will receive heat. He's the best basketball player the world has ever seen, and to compare a young Zag to him is way premature and very very very likely inaccurate in the long run. Of course, I've always hated comparisons...

I really think Manny will be a special player for the Zags, and I can only hope he has a healthy four years with us.

Go Zags!!!

At the same time I don't see any problem approaching a young player and saying: "Look at Michael Jordan's competitive fire. What can you learn from that? How can you incorporate what you see him doing into your game?" In bringing up his HOF speech, its the first time I've noticed how being like Mike might not be the best way to go.

Not everyone here is writing pseudo scouting reports in which it would be insane to compare any young talent to Michael Jordan. Some, like myself, see this board as a way to be an armchair coach in which looking at really great players is like a musician choosing his or her influences. Different strokes.

maynard g krebs
11-04-2009, 01:07 PM
Since I said I liked Reborn's Jordan comparison on the other thread, and both his comment and mine seem to have been blown out of proportion:

1) He's similar in size and physique, and reasonably close in athleticism.
2) He has, imo, great instincts defensively and on the glass (esp. offensive glass).
3)He goes really hard all the time when he's on the floor.
4)His best offensive weapon, imo, is the pullup midrange fadeaway, which is unstoppable.
5)He's a pretty good interior passer. I didn't see the game, but my guess is the three assists are no fluke, and something we'll see against better comp.
6)IMO, he has that undefinable "it" that the great ones have- poise, calm, the willingness and ability to make the big play.

I also said he's got a long way to go offensively to reach anything near that level. My guess for this year is 20-25 mpg, 8-10 ppg, 6 boards, 2.5 apg., 1.5 steals, 1 block. As an upperclassman, I'd up those guesses to 15-18 ppg, 8boards, 3.5-4 apg, 2 steals, 1.3 blocks in 33-35 min. Not too unrealistic, I hope. A comparison means you see interesting similarities, not that the guy is equal. That's why I said I liked reborn making the comparison, but didn't have the guts to do it myself- fear of being misconstrued.

maynard g krebs
11-04-2009, 01:11 PM
btw, I'm no fan of Jordan, but you have to acknowledge his greatness.

willandi
11-04-2009, 05:46 PM
btw, I'm no fan of Jordan, but you have to acknowledge his greatness.

Actually, I don't. He WAS an exceptional player, but if fouls had been called truely, his legacy would be different. Personally, I don't think he is the best ever. I would probably have to go with Chamberlain or Jabbar, Magic if you don't want a big man. Magic could, and did, do it all, play point, wing and center, and in the finals where it counted too.

Snagglezag
11-04-2009, 06:53 PM
While taking a jog on centennial trail tonight, decided to try my luck getting into McCarthey. The team was practicing so I watched for a bit. Bol was playing and showed no hesitation. Felt better seeing that in person--getting more and more excited to see him play in a real game.

GUBoardsAreCrazy
11-04-2009, 07:39 PM
My Name says it all... I've been lurking these boards for a long time, and you guys are nuts. People get offended and angry at each other like this is some sort of family roundtable. Internet message board guys, lets calm down!

First off- Michael Jordan was the greatest of all time. Not even close. You can't compare guys from the 60's, 70's, or even some 80's because the athletic ability wasn't there. So you didn't like his acceptance speech. That's because you are all VERY conservative people (not meaning politics) and didn't find the humor in his speech. Fair enough I guess. John Stockton's speech was BRILLIANT. However, that was the best impression I've ever got from him, I've never heard of him being very friendly. Now I'll take heat for that, because you are all going to come to the defense of a fellow Zag. I am a huge Zag fan, but I grew up with Michael Jordan on my wall, and Scottie Pippens shoes. (Jordan's were too expensive)

For someone to question whether or not Jordan was that great of a player, fills me with absolute rage. You are ignorant. No player will EVER touch what Jordan did. How many players (Kobe, Lebron, Wade) who are being compared to him, shoot .500 from the field? Jordan did it for his career. How many titles did he have with a pretty weak supporting cast? Thats right. To say that the refs made Michael Jordan the greatest ever is by far the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You were never a Bulls fan, and you probably were a fan of the Jazz, or Sonics, which is why you have it out for MJ. But please, try and keep your mouth shut. I hate Kobe Bryant, and Mariano Rivera, but I acknowledge their absolute dominance. Jordan, not that great? PLEASE. I only wish I could show you some Jordan film for about 6 hours.

bballguy
11-04-2009, 07:47 PM
Many does have certain qualities like MJ, but certainly not at his level. Yet. Another great player that I think he may come closer to is Oscar Robertson. Too old for many of you but in my opinion Oscar was the greatest. If Manny is 1/10th the player, no 1/100th the player Robertson was we have a gem. But maybe we should leave the comparisons to latter and compare Freshman Manny with Junior Manny. Then we might have a reasonable comparison. Enjoy the freshman Manny this year 'cause you'll never see him again.
Go Zags

bballguy
11-04-2009, 07:53 PM
My Name says it all... I've been lurking these boards for a long time, and you guys are nuts. People get offended and angry at each other like this is some sort of family roundtable. Internet message board guys, lets calm down!

First off- Michael Jordan was the greatest of all time. Not even close. You can't compare guys from the 60's, 70's, or even some 80's because the athletic ability wasn't there. So you didn't like his acceptance speech. That's because you are all VERY conservative people (not meaning politics) and didn't find the humor in his speech. Fair enough I guess. John Stockton's speech was BRILLIANT. However, that was the best impression I've ever got from him, I've never heard of him being very friendly. Now I'll take heat for that, because you are all going to come to the defense of a fellow Zag. I am a huge Zag fan, but I grew up with Michael Jordan on my wall, and Scottie Pippens shoes. (Jordan's were too expensive)

For someone to question whether or not Jordan was that great of a player, fills me with absolute rage. You are ignorant. No player will EVER touch what Jordan did. How many players (Kobe, Lebron, Wade) who are being compared to him, shoot .500 from the field? Jordan did it for his career. How many titles did he have with a pretty weak supporting cast? Thats right. To say that the refs made Michael Jordan the greatest ever is by far the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You were never a Bulls fan, and you probably were a fan of the Jazz, or Sonics, which is why you have it out for MJ. But please, try and keep your mouth shut. I hate Kobe Bryant, and Mariano Rivera, but I acknowledge their absolute dominance. Jordan, not that great? PLEASE. I only wish I could show you some Jordan film for about 6 hours.

Sorry son, but the gene pool hasn't changed that much. The training has, but not the athlete. Oscar would compete just fine with MJ. You don't average a tripple double for a year and not be great.

GUBoardsAreCrazy
11-04-2009, 08:01 PM
Sorry son, but the gene pool hasn't changed that much. The training has, but not the athlete. Oscar would compete just fine with MJ. You don't average a tripple double for a year and not be great.

I'd like to see a guy from the 50's try and guard Lebron James.. comparing athletes in the past to guys now is like comparing 1080p to 420i.

Most of you don't like Michael Jordan because you are Stockton fans.. Very ignorant of you all. Jordan was the best by a long shot. He also doesn't turn down innocent kids for autographs.. cough cough.

bballguy
11-04-2009, 08:13 PM
I'd like to see a guy from the 50's try and guard Lebron James.. comparing athletes in the past to guys now is like comparing 1080p to 420i.

Most of you don't like Michael Jordan because you are Stockton fans.. Very ignorant of you all. Jordan was the best by a long shot. He also doesn't turn down innocent kids for autographs.. cough cough.

Well since oscar won a championship with Lew Alcindor, (Kareem for all of you young ignorant ans) in the 70s I'd say no. An athlete who played in the 5os wouldn't be able to keep up with LeBron. But shoot man how many players today can keep up with LeBron. After its all said and done if you took the fifty greatest players and time warped them into th same gym at their peak...a player is a player is a player.
And don't lump us all into Jordan Haters. I loved Jordans game, like I loved Dr. Js game, Connie Hawkins, Paul Westphal, The Ice Man, Havlichek, Bobby Jones, Worthy, the list goes on. Don't get so stuck on MJ. Others will come along that will be great and 30 years from now you'll be arguing with some young guy that MJ is so much better than Yaslonovich or Ching or Fernandez or whoever the greatest is 30 years from now. Enjoy the moment and enjoy the history of the game.

ronh_pm
11-04-2009, 08:52 PM
Exactly what you asked me for. Impressions of the game. What happened? Who played well, who didn't. How about something objective like stats? Like I said earlier, I didn't get to see the game and was curious about what happened and am very grateful to anyone that can give me some info. Save me the extrapolations from a preseason game into the regular season. I don't fault people for being excited about the season but the only thing people are serving to do by making these outlandish projections is making themselves look foolish and illogical. I guarantee you the impressions of this team from a preseason game against Alberta will be proven to be a largely inaccurate. Roles will change, rotations will change, chemistry will develop, and intensity will change. Give me the facts and save me the sky is falling op eds until at least the season begins!

I was going to ask how judging who played well, who didn't play well and how stats could be either objective or even relevent when at the same time, impressions of this team from a preseason game against Alberta were not, but then I decided the question may de-rail this thread and it could degenerate into a meaningless debate - I'm being generous -about who the best player history was, is or may yet be.

zagfan07
11-04-2009, 11:29 PM
While taking a jog on centennial trail tonight, decided to try my luck getting into McCarthey. The team was practicing so I watched for a bit. Bol was playing and showed no hesitation. Felt better seeing that in person--getting more and more excited to see him play in a real game.

Hell yes!!! That's what I like to hear! What's that??? Drums?! Yes, drums!!!

Boom, Boom, Boom

He's coming... ;)

GUBoardsAreCrazy
11-05-2009, 05:28 AM
Well since oscar won a championship with Lew Alcindor, (Kareem for all of you young ignorant ans) in the 70s I'd say no. An athlete who played in the 5os wouldn't be able to keep up with LeBron. But shoot man how many players today can keep up with LeBron. After its all said and done if you took the fifty greatest players and time warped them into th same gym at their peak...a player is a player is a player.
And don't lump us all into Jordan Haters. I loved Jordans game, like I loved Dr. Js game, Connie Hawkins, Paul Westphal, The Ice Man, Havlichek, Bobby Jones, Worthy, the list goes on. Don't get so stuck on MJ. Others will come along that will be great and 30 years from now you'll be arguing with some young guy that MJ is so much better than Yaslonovich or Ching or Fernandez or whoever the greatest is 30 years from now. Enjoy the moment and enjoy the history of the game.

A lot of.. older folks, don't really like Jordan. There will never be another Jordan, nor has there ever been one in the past. I'm sorry, but there is no arguing this matter. MOST of the posters so far are Jordan haters, because they are Stockton/Jazz/Sonic fans. It's really unfortunate. I'm a HUGE Celtics fan, can't stand the Bulls, but Jordan was, and still is my all time favorite player. Nobody will ever touch him

NotoriousZ
11-05-2009, 06:19 AM
A lot of.. older folks, don't really like Jordan. There will never be another Jordan, nor has there ever been one in the past. I'm sorry, but there is no arguing this matter. MOST of the posters so far are Jordan haters, because they are Stockton/Jazz/Sonic fans. It's really unfortunate. I'm a HUGE Celtics fan, can't stand the Bulls, but Jordan was, and still is my all time favorite player. Nobody will ever touch him

You're not winning this argument with statements like that. Jordan was the best IMO, but to say that there will NEVER be someone as good or better than him is just plain ridiculous. Lumping all of us GUBoarders together as Jordan haters and tearing down John Stockton isn't helping your cause either. Yes, Stock doesn't sign autographs. But Jordan cheated on his wife, so there you go. Jordan was the best on the court, most of us know it. You should probably ignore those who think otherwise.

cjm720
11-05-2009, 06:25 AM
I'd like to see a guy from the 50's try and guard Lebron James.. comparing athletes in the past to guys now is like comparing 1080p to 420i.

Most of you don't like Michael Jordan because you are Stockton fans.. Very ignorant of you all. Jordan was the best by a long shot. He also doesn't turn down innocent kids for autographs.. cough cough.

Are you sure you're old enough to have witnessed MJ play? You act like a little baby. I completely agree that Jordan is the best player to ever play, but there are certainly arguments for others. When I think of MJ, I don't think of Stockton and vice versa. Hoops is hoops, players are players. As you stated in a previous post, this is a message board!!!!!

Anywhoo....go zags!!!

Crazy
11-05-2009, 06:36 AM
aren't there other great players, who are great basketball players i always struggle with people who say XY was the best.

So if you say Jordan, i could say Wil dominated more then him, Magic and oscar Robinson has a more complete Skillset and maybe masters Basketball on "every" Position, Russel was succesful like nobody else and i am pretty sure you could other players on that list.

So Jordan is of course a exceptional Basketball, who also makes it really popular through a very good marketing, but the "one and only" i don't think so.

Nevtelen
11-05-2009, 07:08 AM
A lot of.. older folks, don't really like Jordan. There will never be another Jordan, nor has there ever been one in the past. I'm sorry, but there is no arguing this matter. MOST of the posters so far are Jordan haters, because they are Stockton/Jazz/Sonic fans. It's really unfortunate. I'm a HUGE Celtics fan, can't stand the Bulls, but Jordan was, and still is my all time favorite player. Nobody will ever touch him

Whether or not you think Jordan was the best (I'm not sure I agree, but I think most people do), statements like "Nobody will ever touch him," and "There will never be another Jordan, no has there ever been on in the past" are pretty silly. Not to mention saying this whole board hates Jordan because we love Stockton - there are so many logical holes with that statement I'm not going to even begin. If you actually want to argue this, first off I suggest this thread moves to the general bball board or the Foo, but second off, you need to back that up with something besides your opinion as if you brought it down from the mountain on stone tablets. Whether or not anyone agrees with you, there's no question that it's possible to debate this topic and even come up with a valid answer that is different from yours.

sonuvazag
11-05-2009, 07:41 AM
Hilarious when someone tells everyone to calm down and then proceeds to rant with generalizations, assumptions, and grief. I never said Stockton was a better player than Jordan. Did anyone else? I'm just saying, life is life and basketball and basketball and right now, Jordan looks like a lost soul trying to hold on to old glory and Stockton looks much further ahead in the peace of mind category. That's why I would advise a young player to approach the game more like Stockton. Because life will carry on after the basketball glory fades.

FWIW, Stockton was unbelievably competitive and a case can be made that Stockton did at least as much as Jordan to develop his own potential and greatness.

And nothing against Jordan. I greatly enjoyed witnessing his career and rooted for all his championships except when he beat the Jazz. And even then it was: "at least it was to a great player like Jordan and a great team like the Bulls." In his mind, Jordan's HOF speech may have been to thank all the people who fueled his fire. By calling out all the people who challenged him in an embarrassing way, though, he came across as petty and small... I'm not the only one to say so.

When I was in second grade, the Stockton family arranged for me to visit their house and receive an autograph from John Stockton personally. He was shy about it, but still very nice, and I was at the age where he was something else. I'd seen him play many times at Kennedy and for anyone from Spokane and Gonzaga to MAKE the NBA... that was UNBELIEVABLE. This was early in his NBA career so all I can say is, if he stopped being so gracious later (as has been oft repeated in hearsay) it must have been jerkhole fans that changed him.

As for the comparisons to great players, I see nothing wrong when others speak their mind and express their observations. You saw what you saw and that's valid. It would be laughable if a legitimate scouting service compared every young talent to Michael Jordan and some of the posts here are written in the scouting service style. That's the only reason I can think of why such posts get attacked. Just to be clear... I am not attacking the comparisons. Compare away. Speak your mind.

Reborn
11-05-2009, 08:04 AM
This thread has really turned into something else hasn't it. I didn't compare Manny to Michael because I am a Michael fan. I never was. Ever. But I still thought he was a great player. The greatest? That's debateable as you can see. My favorite player of all time was Larry Bird. 2nd, Magic Johnson. 3rd Bill Russel. Michael was a 2 guard. Arop has similar skills to Michael. That was my point. I could be wrong. I haven't even seen Arop play yet. But I'm really excited to. I'll let you know what I think after I see him play a few games.

sonuvazag
11-05-2009, 08:15 AM
And another point about the Manny comments, if there is even a hint of Jordan's game there, I am excited to hear it. I didn't see the exhibition so I definitely have something to look forward to.

GUBoardsAreCrazy. We are going to have to agree to disagree. Many would say its wrong to feed the trolls so I am going to stop.

zag67
11-05-2009, 09:07 AM
Reborn, nice comment. I also think that MJ is a great player, but I am not sure that if I could only pick one player to build a team around, he would be that player. In some ways, I probably would pick Bill Russell and build it around defense. Also he was a winner, just like MJ. But that is IMO.

To me there is nothing better than a great defensive stand and a group of players that want to play team defense. I only hope that GU will get into that mode this year. I think that we have the athletes, now they have to want to use their talents to stop other teams from scoring. Again, Manny, Bol, Harris, GJ, Poling, Gibbs and all of the rest of the existing players (and also Dower and Kelly if they do not RS) are going to be fun to watch.

Remember you can have a bad shooting night, but you should not have a bad hustle, assist, box out, and defensive night.

DADoZAG
11-05-2009, 09:32 AM
Reborn, nice comment...

To me there is nothing better than a great defensive stand and a group of players that want to play team defense. I only hope that GU will get into that mode this year. I think that we have the athletes, now they have to want to use their talents to stop other teams from scoring. Again, Manny, Bol, Harris, GJ, Poling, Gibbs and all of the rest of the existing players (and also Dower and Kelly if they do not RS) are going to be fun to watch.

Remember you can have a bad shooting night, but you should not have a bad hustle, assist, box out, and defensive night.

As a lad, I had a baseball coach tell me something similar, "You only need to score one run, if you hold the other team to zero."

There was a time in the second half, I believe it was about the ten minute mark, where there was nothing but freshman on the floor. They were playing man to man, but someone got screened. I was very impressed how help arrived, as the athleticism of the freshman allowed them to switch and help. Going by memory (yeah, scary for an “old conservative” like me that remembers guys like “Clyde” and “Hondo”), but there were at least four passes to an open man, and the frosh switched to cover each time. I can't remember the outcome of the play (senior moments suck), but I was very impressed with the quickness and length exhibited on that play.

It's early, and the competition was not what we’ll see in a week or so, but it's still soooo exciting, and I’m just posting some of my observations.

Go ZAGS!

GUBoardsAreCrazy
11-05-2009, 12:33 PM
And another point about the Manny comments, if there is even a hint of Jordan's game there, I am excited to hear it. I didn't see the exhibition so I definitely have something to look forward to.

GUBoardsAreCrazy. We are going to have to agree to disagree. Many would say its wrong to feed the trolls so I am going to stop.

How am I a troll? Because we disagree? I'm welcome to debates, but I'm sorry, I haven't had any legitimate arguments presented to me as to who has been better than MIchael. Remember, I am a Celtics fan, and someone bringing up Larry Bird, ah..

I'm just saying that from my point of view, it seems like a lot of you are debating the fact Jordan is the best ever, simply because you weren't a fan of him, whether you admit it or not. It's OK though, It's all in good fun..

maynard g krebs
11-05-2009, 01:03 PM
Actually, I don't. He WAS an exceptional player, but if fouls had been called truely, his legacy would be different. Personally, I don't think he is the best ever. I would probably have to go with Chamberlain or Jabbar, Magic if you don't want a big man. Magic could, and did, do it all, play point, wing and center, and in the finals where it counted too.

I just said "acknowledge his greatness", not that he's the greatest. There are lots of great players, and it's like choosing your favorite flavor, imo. Personally, I agree that Jordan was PARTLY a product of Stern's marketing machine, which included the introduction of the "superstar call".

My personal list of favorite flavors, in order, keeping in mind the impossibility of comparing eras( considering advances in training and differences in playing styles and officiating):

1)Russell- smartest, most dominant individual ever to play the game. The record speaks for itself.
2)Magic- for basically same reasons you stated.
3)Oscar, Wilt, Jordan, Kareem, Bird in any order you want to pick.

BobZag
11-05-2009, 04:48 PM
Everybody knows Manny is Kobe II.

bigblahla
11-05-2009, 05:21 PM
Remember you can have a bad shooting night, but you should not have a bad hustle, assist, box out, and defensive night.

And that's how you win championships! :D

Go!! Zags!!!

gamagin
11-05-2009, 05:29 PM
Reborn, nice comment. I also think that MJ is a great player, but I am not sure that if I could only pick one player to build a team around, he would be that player. In some ways, I probably would pick Bill Russell and build it around defense. Also he was a winner, just like MJ. But that is IMO.

To me there is nothing better than a great defensive stand and a group of players that want to play team defense. I only hope that GU will get into that mode this year. I think that we have the athletes, now they have to want to use their talents to stop other teams from scoring. Again, Manny, Bol, Harris, GJ, Poling, Gibbs and all of the rest of the existing players (and also Dower and Kelly if they do not RS) are going to be fun to watch.

Remember you can have a bad shooting night, but you should not have a bad hustle, assist, box out, and defensive night.



when asked what player he would chose first to start a team, he'd pick John Stockton.