PDA

View Full Version : Few on Kong and Rice on Olynyk...



BobZag
10-16-2009, 09:22 AM
With Few wanting Kong to be an "aggressive scorer", is it possible Bol kinda gradually becomes an Adam Morrison type where the offense revolves around him and he becomes the definitive go-to guy? Plays are drawn up for Bol. The whole enchilada, ala Ammo. And I toss this idea out there, not so much for this season, but the seasons following this first season at GU for Kong.

Or is balance truly better?

Seems the best Zags teams have had an Alpha Dog with the notable exception of the 1999 team, but even then it could be argued that Santangelo was that guy. The best Zags teams, imo, were led by Calvary or Dickau or Stepp or Adam. All Alpha Dogs. The balanced teams were good but not the best, again imo.

There is much food for thought here...

If there is going to be "the next Ammo" or "the next Daye", Kelly Olynyk would appear best-suited to fit that bill. Similar length, skills, etc. So that begs the question, does the staff begin thinking about building around Olynyk, so to gradually work him into the go-to guy, ala Ammo? And if, perchance, the Zags staff can convince Kyle Wiltjer into being a Zag, could Wiltjer simply be plugged into that same role after Olynyk? After all, Wiltjer and Olynyk and Daye and even Adam are all seemingly cut from the same cloth: long, lengthy, skilled scorers with great inside-outside versatility.

Or is it more effective just to keep it simple and be balanced?

seasontixholder
10-16-2009, 09:32 AM
It's risky to conclude too much about that comment about Kong, but it seemed to be in the spirit of a challenge (similar to repeated ones to Gray) to be aggressive. Adam never needed to be prodded like that.

krozman
10-16-2009, 09:47 AM
Daye, IMO, was no adam Morrison. That may have changed if he stayed, but based solely on his GU career, he'll never rank high in the "best 10 players at GU all time" chart, ever. Morrison, at least for now, is in that conversation.

I understand the question though, and without actually seeing them in action it's impossible for the average joe to project.

I think that my educated guess, is that Bouldin will probably still be the leading scorer on this team. We have to remember that Boudin has been working on his game all summer, and I hear he "has the force" now -- not only the ability to alter shots into the hoop, but to deflect long 3's from going in on the opposite end just from his mind powers alone. Strange and mysterious, this Bouldinator.

CDC84
10-16-2009, 10:13 AM
I don't like building an offense around a specific player, but I also like having two or three guys instead of six or seven to build the offense around. I felt there wasn't enough role definition last season. Having two or three guys keeps the defense from focusing on one player, but it also gives the team some focus and some clear options about where they should direct the ball to.

I still think Bouldin needs to prove that he can in score in one on one situations against athletic defenders who are his height like ex-Memphis wing Antonio Anderson. He has yet to prove that he can do this at the college level. Most of his scoring has come thru taking advantage of physical mismatches, or draining long range jumpers. Within the WCC, no one can guard Matt. At least USD had a Corey Belser they could put on Adam. But there really isn't an off guard within the WCC who is tall or strong enough to deal with Matty in the paint or anywhere else on the floor.

Matt is going to have a huge year, but I still have concerns about how he is going to do as this team's primary option when he faces guys who can physically guard him.

I think one of the toughest decisions Few is going to have in the coming years is where to play Olynyk. The kid is tall enough to play center, but he has the ball skills and passing skills of a shooting guard.

Reborn
10-16-2009, 10:15 AM
I can see your perspective on this, BZ, but AMMO's final year only produced a Sweet 16 accomplishment. I think to ever get beyond the Sweet 16 the Zags will have to have seven very good players. They all need to be able to score. There will be defined roles as there is always, but the players will all be able to pick up the slack when major scorers are "off." A great team needs to have two and even three guys who have the green light and are "agressive scorers".

They will also need to be a very good defensive team. Better than any we've had.

I do not think that either Kong nor Olynyk will be in the mold of Morrison. I believe there are too many guys who will be able to score. I think either could possibly be our next 20 point scores, more in the mold of Dickau. I would prefer this mold to the Morrison mold. I'd like to see an 18-20 pt scorer along with a 13-15 pt per game scorer, and a few guys around 10 ppg. These five guys are all capable of scoring 20 pts a game, and do so in a few games a year depending on match ups. I think, besides Olynyk and Kong, that Arrop, Harris, Dower, and even GJ are all capable of scoring 20 points in a game. Three of these guys, and Meech, are capable of averaging 10 pts a game, and Gray and Bouldin 13-20.

Baldwinzag
10-16-2009, 10:20 AM
There is no end in sight for the Bol Kong hype -- even our very own Coach Few has succumbed to it;) . I know Bol is a long, lean, scoring machine, but is he really that good--right now? Isn't it Kong's first organized practice in a very, very long time. How are the Coaches already drawing up plays for this kid when he's only played a year of JUCO, practiced w/NEDA, played a little Canadian streetball, and a few pick-up games at GU? Has he ever been truly challenged at a high level? How will he respond? Are we, including our Coaching staff, rushing too much judgment/hope on THE Bol Kong? I understand he's talented, yet to consider him a 1st Scoring option in this year's offense seems a bit rushed, IMO.

All that said, I was wholeheartedly looking forward to a team-centric approach this season. A perfect balance between a seasoned, proven backcourt and a young, talented frontcourt. I'd like to see our entire starting five average in double-figures and see a different star every night -- depending on matchups. Adam Morrison was fun to watch, but our offense was not as many our peripheral players developed bad habits of "watching Adam go". I enjoyed the '06-'07 Zags much better with D-Rav, Pargo, Bouldin, Heytvelt, Pendo, etc. Team-oriented is always my preference.

MickMick
10-16-2009, 10:21 AM
Matt and Steven this year.

Bol, Steven and Manny next year.

Adam was justifiably perceived as the Alpha dog, but JP Batista was an overlooked scoring Juggernaut as well. Dickau had Stepp. Santangelo had Frahm.

Too many stars last year. Gray has suffered for it. You can say he didn't "demand" the ball enough, but what happens when everybody "demands" the ball? The upperclassmen and the NBA prospect won out.

It is Matt and Steven's turn now. They will not disappoint. They will be featured in the "Second Decade of Excellence" DVD.

BobZag
10-16-2009, 10:29 AM
C'mon, we're talkin' 'bout a guy who has a dance named after him!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4A50EHwCjY

But seriously, I'm talking about the future, not this year. Of course Bouldin will lead the team this year. That goes without saying.

MickMick
10-16-2009, 10:52 AM
I think too many people are overly cautious about Bol.

I'm going to make a stand. And I'll gladly eat crow if I'm proven wrong.

Bol is going to take off like a rocket (maybe not immediatley though, even Ammo took a little time). Few has watched him up close for a couple of weeks now. Then his first public words about Kong after those two weeks are, "We want Bol to be an aggressive scorer".

You don't have to hit me over the head to get Few's vision. I see it plain as day.

75Zag
10-16-2009, 11:01 AM
I would not want to say that Bol is going to be the center of the GU basketball universe, but I understand the Pope is naming a new sin after him. The final wording is still undergoing focus group testing at the Vatican, but my inside sources report the final commandment will read: "Thou shalt not Bol thy Kong."

Go Bulldogs! Get Bigger!

JohnOGU
10-16-2009, 11:01 AM
I think too many people are overly cautious about Bol.

I'm going to make a stand. And I'll gladly eat crow if I'm proven wrong.

Bol is going to take off like a rocket (maybe not immediatley though, even Ammo took a little time). Few has watched him up close for a couple of weeks now. Then his first public words about Kong after those two weeks are, "We want Bol to be an aggressive scorer".

You don't have to hit me over the head to get Few's vision. I see it plain as day.

I'll second that, and I also will eat crow if proven wrong.

There's a reason why the staff pushed SO hard to get Bol here. The kid is so skilled and so smart with the ball in his hands...not to mention, he's no pushover of an athlete either.

CaliforniaZaggin'
10-16-2009, 11:08 AM
6'11" + shooting guard skills + high basketball I.Q. + supreme confidence = broken light bulbs on the scoreboard

If I had to place a vote, I'd predict that KO is the next great Gonzaga scoring machine. He has the potential to be the Canadian Dirk Nowitzki.

Drew
10-16-2009, 11:09 AM
C'mon, we're talkin' 'bout a guy who has a dance named after him!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4A50EHwCjY

Ughhhh!!! Please no!!!!!

I am sure Bol will appreciate your restraint.

cjm720
10-16-2009, 11:22 AM
I want both. It's all about mentality. I'd love to have a "balanced" team with several mentally tough players ala Stepp, Ammo, Dickau. I think we might have this make up with our new core guys. Gonna be a fun ride.

go Zags!!

roxdoc
10-16-2009, 11:24 AM
Great thread BZ

Its a tough question because we have so much talent, albeit untested.

I think I am in the camp of having several "go to" guys. My guess is that a couple of them will be new guys. Matt is the leader and a great player but I don't see him in that roll. I would say for this year: Kong, Harris, and maybe Gray if he is healthy and can "bring it" in every game this time around.

I'm more excited about this year than I have been in a long time. Not so much for the overall record or even how far we can go dancing, but just to see how the newbies grow and how vets and rookies can meld together.

former1dog
10-16-2009, 11:34 AM
Put me in the "play the hand your dealt" column.

I don't think that Ammo being the dominant go to guy was necessarily by design. Few recognized that he had a very special talent on the team and also recognized he could win games by exploiting the challenges that Ammo posed for opposing teams. Few, IMO, altered his strategy, game plan, what ever you want to call it based on the talent he had on the team.

That is a coaching strength in my opinion. I think Coach Few will continue to try and do that and it will depend entirely on what the players do on the floor.

rpzagfan
10-16-2009, 11:42 AM
when I first saw this I was reminded of PMAC. Didn't Few say the same thing about him? Ditto about Gurganious?

"Be more aggressive." Please.

MickMick
10-16-2009, 11:49 AM
Put me in the "play the hand your dealt" column.

I don't think that Ammo being the dominant go to guy was necessarily by design. Few recognized that he had a very special talent on the team and also recognized he could win games by exploiting the challenges that Ammo posed for opposing teams. Few, IMO, altered his strategy, game plan, what ever you want to call it based on the talent he had on the team.

That is a coaching strength in my opinion. I think Coach Few will continue to try and do that and it will depend entirely on what the players do on the floor.

+1

I absolutely agree.

The best coaches adapt a flexible system to their players as opposed to making the players adapt to a rigid system. Few has shown in the past that he will adapt to the strengths of the team. Even if it seems contrary to his fundamental basketball philosophy. This game is about matchups. Few is going to design the best matchups that minimize the weak points of individual players and maximize their strong points. If he finds a scoring or rebounding or defending or assist machine, there is no doubt he will do everything he can to maximize those aspects.

MDABE80
10-16-2009, 12:10 PM
Nobody...even Few can know who is the best of the bunch right now OR in the future. Bol is a legend..not seen him play within the past 1.5 years. It'll take time to figure that out.

KO has the right tools but he hasn't seen D1 yet. By all measures he should be the one.

I like the idea of lots of team type kids with all having enough firepower to take over in different situations. For example, KO at some point will be guarded by an oaf (yikes that sounds harsh)....or some poor kid who isn't mobile but is 6 ft 8. KO will be the guy that night. Bol, at some point will be guarded by a very good 6 ft 3 kid who just cannot keep up....or a 6 ft 7 in kid who isn't mobile enough to keep up. Bol is the guy that night.

Same thing with GJ or Meech....a bigger kid who cannot match the speed and is 1/2 step slow.

Every game it'll be someone/ someone else.. and who that person is just not predictable right now. Balance always wins. We need it. We have kids who can do many thngs. In the WCC, anyone could sub for Adam if he couldn't play for some odd reason and we'd win. Not so in the OOC or NCAA. He was needed and needed in spades. Balance rules.........especially if superior talent is diffusely distributed in a team. We have that.....or so I'm hoping.
We're going to learn a lot about our team this year. I have a feeling in my gut that the new kids won't disappoint. All will be as advertised. Here's to hoping they find us in the FF within 2 years.

bartruff1
10-16-2009, 12:51 PM
I will take balance everytime....when I take notice of what a player is doing in a game it is distracting from what the team is doing....I think Matty led the team in scoring last year at about 13 ?? Perfect for me would be 10 players averaging 8.5 points per game...I really like that...you never know before the game who will be the Man...it might have been Few that said any of the 6 could score 20 ??.... for example, seeing Downs win the MVP in Vegas was a thrill for me...to echo what has been said...JP was a rock...there were a buncha very good players on that team.... and besides, balance minimizes injuries or hangovers...

NotoriousZ
10-16-2009, 01:08 PM
Put me down in the balance column. Having multiple threats on the court gives you more options on offense, and when orchestrated smoothly it's one of the most satisfying things to watch as a fan. Who knows if one of the new guys will develope Ammo-like control of this team, but with all of the talent we have on this team it's not going to happen anytime soon.

zag67
10-16-2009, 01:41 PM
I am going to also agree with many of the last comments. Balance is important.

That does not mean that their is not a "goto" person that the ball should be going through near the end of the game. I think that person this year is going to be either Matt or Meech (probably depending upon the matchup). We want the ball in their hands to find the right person at the right time.

I also believe that the coaches and players need to understand who the mismatch is on that night and get the ball to that person. It might be Matt, Steven, Bol, Sacre, Harris, Poling or Arop. This team has a great mismatch of talent that is going to cause other teams to play our game. We have speed, 3 point shooters, rebounders, and athletic players at all posititons. I think that this will be the key to the success of this team this year and into the future.

Kiddwell
10-16-2009, 03:49 PM
Kiddwell's in the "All for One" camp (team play, share the glory) vs. the "One for All" camp (Ammo, Dickau, etc.).

Coach Few (heck, GU) hasn't had such riches before. Formerly Few had to rely, for the most part, on a sole gunslinger and/or stud. Today's Zags are more talented, deeper. Once Fewie figures out (1) who to start then (2) who to substitute for a given circumstance (given this year's abundant newbies), the Zags' uber talent and uber (youthful) depth will wear out, wear down the opposition.

The Zags have progressed past the single star/superstar era. The Zags have also progressed from an offense-minded game to an offense/defense-minded game.

Coach Few has to adjust his mindset to the new and glorious "wealth of talent" battle plan.

IMO...

:]

RenoZag
10-16-2009, 06:43 PM
There is no end in sight for the Bol Kong hype

+1

WallaWallaZag
10-16-2009, 06:45 PM
i'm all for having some balance, but to be an elite team you have to have at least one superstar and one sidekick with solid role players. jordan doesn't have 6 rings without pippen (and rodman doing his thing and kerr hitting open threes). people sometimes forget that ammo had batista going for 18-8 every night on what i believe is our best team in recent years. kobe couldn't do anything without shaq until gasol came along. unc had balance, but still revolved around pyscho-t and lawson with a shooter in ellington.

my fantasy for the zags this year? bouldin gray and harris turn into pierce allen and garnett...then all rob has to do is rebound and intimidate and all meech has to do is play d and distribute the rock.

ZagsGoZags
10-16-2009, 07:19 PM
I lean towards balance also, unless one new player rises to play at the elite level in the nation, and even then go for as much balance as needed to maximize the superstar.

It was so nice for the last few years to have different players getting and earning the MVP of the game, and we never knew who it would be. Back in Ammo's day he deserved the MVP so often everyone was happy to give MVP's to the second most valuable player of the game that night, including most of us fans.

MickMick
10-16-2009, 07:39 PM
i'm all for having some balance, but to be an elite team you have to have at least one superstar and one sidekick with solid role players. jordan doesn't have 6 rings without pippen (and rodman doing his thing and kerr hitting open threes). people sometimes forget that ammo had batista going for 18-8 every night on what i believe is our best team in recent years. kobe couldn't do anything without shaq until gasol came along. unc had balance, but still revolved around pyscho-t and lawson with a shooter in ellington.

my fantasy for the zags this year? bouldin gray and harris turn into pierce allen and garnett...then all rob has to do is rebound and intimidate and all meech has to do is play d and distribute the rock.

I share the fantasy. Then throw in a couple monster games by Kong and the fantasy is complete.

I think you nailed the critical players here. Bouldin, Gray, Harris, Rob, and Meech. It all starts with those guys. Have them do what the do best. Meech might have to shoot from range once in awhile if the defense doesn't respect his shot. But don't expect him to shoot over .300 from three point land. Rob fulfills a greater need as an overdue physical presence inside as opposed to a scoring machine from 15'.

I would love to see Gray and Bouldin throw up bomb after bomb. Let Rob and Elias clean up the backboards. Then when the defense starts expanding out, work Harris/Sacre inside, let Meech/Gray drive the lane, and Kong/Bouldin drive the baseline.

Ahh beautiful harmony.

Rbo
10-16-2009, 07:42 PM
Matt and Steven this year.

Bol, Steven and Manny next year.

I agree with MickMick (Yeehaw, Cement Pond!). Plus, add KO to next year.

zag67
10-16-2009, 08:07 PM
And then added to RBO's comments are Ellias, Robert and Dower taking care of the inside area. Points, blocks, rebounds and controlling the middle.

ZagsGoZags
10-19-2009, 09:23 PM
This thread strangely leaves out one who may become a truly great talent soon. Andy Poling. I accept that KO is down the road, but Andy may be here right now ready to go. He knows the plays.

JohnOGU
10-20-2009, 12:59 PM
Apparently Big Will came down on BK's ankle in practice yesterday...Not good.

BobZag
10-20-2009, 01:44 PM
Apparently Big Will came down on BK's ankle in practice yesterday...Not good.

I was wondering when and who and what the first injury would be. I knew it had to be soon. And sure enough...

CaliforniaZaggin'
10-20-2009, 01:54 PM
Anyone know the extent of the injury? Anyone see BK on crutches today? If Manny's foot injury lingers and BK misses time with an ankle issue, then Grant's health suddenly becomes very important.

JohnOGU
10-20-2009, 02:07 PM
Anyone know the extent of the injury? Anyone see BK on crutches today? If Manny's foot injury lingers and BK misses time with an ankle issue, then Grant's health suddenly becomes very important.

Not sure. Heard it will get looked into today.

soccerdud
10-20-2009, 02:08 PM
on initial reading of the post, i assumed it was big will who would have gotten the worst of it. which guy is actually hurt?

JohnOGU
10-20-2009, 02:10 PM
on initial reading of the post, i assumed it was big will who would have gotten the worst of it. which guy is actually hurt?

BK. 275 lbs on an ankle will do some damage.