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View Full Version : I think the Zags will be Top 10



BobZag
04-05-2007, 03:27 PM
Not sure if there will be five better point guards in the country next year than Jeremy Pargo, and he'll be flanked by a vastly improved Matt Bouldin and a vastly improved Micah Downs, both of whom bringing something different to the table, providing a variety of ways to attack defenses. Josh Heytvelt is as talented as any 6'11" player in college, and guys like Pendo showed they can put up double figures against Memphis, Indiana and all WCC teams. As a 1st-year Juco transfer, Kuso showed flashes, and Theo was exciting a lot of people in practices before injuring his shoulder for the season. Add the best recruiting class in Zags history, and I think by February the 07-08 Zags will be well within the Top 10. I feel Zag fans saw glimpses of next season vs North Carolina, Texas, UW, Stanford, Memphis, but youth, ridiculous travel scheduling and events never experienced by GU hoops before caused way too much irratic play.

A Top 15 preseason ranking is totally justifiable.

I think the defense improves with Ray Giacoletti now on board.

And, IF everyone returns and with only Pendo and Kuso graduating, I think Zag fans will be looking at Top 5 or higher in 08-09.

That's how I see it. jmo.

lothar98zag
04-05-2007, 03:29 PM
I think by February the 07-08 Zags will be well within the Top 10...

agreed.

It wouldn't be the first time GU was a top 10 team in February. I see no reason why it wouldn't be possilbe next year.

dawgman1999
04-05-2007, 03:39 PM
Not sure if there will be five better point guards in the country next year than Jeremy Pargo, and he'll be flanked by a vastly improved Matt Bouldin and a vastly improved Micah Downs, both of whom bringing something different to the table, providing a variety of ways to attack defenses. Josh Heytvelt is as talented as any 6'11" player in college, and guys like Pendo showed they can put up double figures against Memphis, Indiana and all WCC teams. As a 1st-year Juco transfer, Kuso showed flashes, and Theo was exciting a lot of people in practices before injuring his shoulder for the season. Add the best recruiting class in Zags history, and I think by February the 07-08 Zags will be well within the Top 10. I feel Zag fans saw glimpses of next season vs North Carolina, Texas, UW, Stanford, Memphis, but youth, ridiculous travel scheduling and events never experienced by GU hoops before caused way too much irratic play.

A Top 15 preseason ranking is totally justifiable.

I think the defense improves with Ray Giacoletti now on board.

And, IF everyone returns and with only Pendo and Kuso graduating, I think Zag fans will be looking at Top 5 or higher in 08-09.

That's how I see it. jmo.

I think it's too early to say right now. It depends on how a lot of under classmen will do before the draft. I think a big thing work against the Zags will be experience. I would think they will be a fringe top 25 team to start the season, and gradually get better to end up at 15 by year's end.

Before, I think 09 is the year for the Zags to be in the FF. But I have serious reservation on that now. I just don't think both Heytvelt and Downs will be here after next year. With Heytvelt, you have the character issue, the NBA to consider. With Downs, his lack of maturity, his grades and the NBA are major issues. The better they do next year, the more likely they will go to the NBA. So it's a tough situation. I think 09 will end up just like 08 for the Zags, maybe worse if neither Heytvelt or Downs returns.

lothar98zag
04-05-2007, 03:44 PM
With Downs, his lack of maturity,... are major issues...
Please explain what you mean by this. Thanks.

dawgman1999
04-05-2007, 03:49 PM
Please explain what you mean by this. Thanks.

Downs was almost academically ineligible last year. Even he admitted that in a newspaper interview. The Huskies never wanted him after he got his release in KU. 7 HS transfers and the short stinct with KU was too much Romar can stomach. You know the Heytvelt story better than I do.

lothar98zag
04-05-2007, 03:58 PM
Downs was almost academically ineligible last year. Even he admitted that in a newspaper interview. The Huskies never wanted him after he got his release in KU. 7 HS transfers and the short stinct with KU was too much Romar can stomach. You know the Heytvelt story better than I do.
I didn't ask about your JH comments, but whatever.

Thanks for bringing up old pre-Zag issues w/ Downs that everyone knows about (& UW stuff that nobody's interested in). I thought there was something more recent you were refering to - guess not.

Personally, I haven't seen anything from him on the court as a Zag that would make me think he has maturity issues, but maybe my TV isn't as good as yours...

sanfranzagsguy20
04-05-2007, 03:58 PM
Downs was almost academically ineligible last year. Even he admitted that in a newspaper interview. The Huskies never wanted him after he got his release in KU. 7 HS transfers and the short stinct with KU was too much Romar can stomach. You know the Heytvelt story better than I do.

this doesnt answer anything and i dont remember the question being posed of why the huskies didnt want downs...

brasszag
04-05-2007, 04:00 PM
Downs was almost academically ineligible last year. Even he admitted that in a newspaper interview.

And how much of that may have been to what sounded like depression at his situation?

MedZag
04-05-2007, 04:06 PM
He even admitted in an interview to being depressed at Kansas. And it was largely his parents behind the HS transfers because of his father's obsessive dream of having his son play at Kansas.

brasszag
04-05-2007, 04:19 PM
Wow...BZ is being POSITIVE!

Maybe not... and that scares me.

BobZag
04-05-2007, 04:31 PM
The hating by Huskies is old hat, but it stems from jealousy. They had a cute little 3-year run and it's over. A tough pill to swallow. We understand.

Anywhooo,

I think back to our highly ranked teams (6th in 2002, 3rd in 2004, 5th in 2006) and I do not see the overall level of talent on those teams that I see on the next two Zag teams. Therefore, imo, Top 15 and Top 5 is what I personally expect.

CDC84
04-05-2007, 04:58 PM
http://www.spokesmanreview.com/zags/story.asp?ID=178913

ZaggyStardust
04-05-2007, 05:01 PM
Has anyone else noticed that the MINUTE something positive is said by ZAG fans about our hopes/expectations/speculations, whatever you want to call them are posted, here comes DAWGMAN1999 to squash em like a bug. It's like he stalks the board just waiting for the moment to strike. Frankly, I'm sick of it I think he needs to go home..... Why in the world DAWGMAN1999 do you even hang out here. I know I'm only one poster, but my vote is you are not welcome until you can offer something positive on this board. Contribute something positive, or please or just shut up!!!!

Fuskies just have ZagEnvy!!!!

BobZag
04-05-2007, 05:19 PM
Why Stardust, no wonder I have a *crush* on you. ;)

Zags floursh, Dawgs flounder = Zag Envy.
8 Ws out of 10 is domination = Zag Envy.

Oh, and Downs never gave a rat's arse about Romar and his bunch.

RebornZag
04-05-2007, 05:24 PM
Stardust, I certainly understand your sentiments about Dawgman, but I think it's good for the Board to have pirates like him roaming around trying to steal (or in your words crush) the Good that the Zags have accomplished. BZ understands the Husky jealousy, and Dawgman's in particular. I think we all do, and I like to see it out in the open. He hides behind a pseudomask of what he might think is basketball intelligence, but in all actuality it's no more then Husky Bias and/or Gonzaga envy....Let him have his piece so we can laugh with joy as we all watch what happens at UW.

I think we all know what Romar thinks. I'm one who is glad he's not a great evaluator of talent and passed on Downs. We all had a little taste of Downs. He was a tantalizing solvent that we got to share for only a few brief moments...But wasn't he SWEET!!!:D

4EVERaZAG
04-05-2007, 05:52 PM
And, IF everyone returns and with only Pendo and Kuso graduating, I think Zag fans will be looking at Top 5 or higher in 08-09.


Bob did you leave PMAC out on purpose? Could he be leaving, transferring, or losing his scholarship?

TrueLiz
04-05-2007, 07:47 PM
I for one have noticed that BZ doesn't speak untruths, and seems lead us in right directions with cryptic thoughts as well, so after many posts in which he was not included, I'm thinking that Pmac is not going to be a Zag next year. Now we just have to stay tuned to find out why!

TuckC
04-05-2007, 08:09 PM
Playing Devil's Advocate here, but not everything has been answered here. Raivio's free throw shooting will be missed; Grier was a major contributor in play calling; and we don't know about the evolution of Bouldin, the effects of Freshman contribution and demands of playing time, and how Josh will act and be treated. But I believe a Top 15 forsure. They will be a threat, but who will be the trademark "shooter" guard who Gonzaga has been known for (Frahm, Santangelo, Dickau, etc.)

tobizag
04-05-2007, 08:39 PM
BZ, I know that PMAC is eligible to graduate this year, is he choosing not to play anymore?

tyra
04-05-2007, 09:42 PM
I don't know where the Zags will be ranked next year or how good they will be. I DO know that they have a truck load of talent and IMO, as much as they have ever had. But there are so many intangibles and things that could go wrong to prevent them from reaching their full collective potential: 1) Injuries (we know about that from this year), 2) Bad chemistry (just because the individuals are incredibly talented doesn't mean they will gel as a unit, 3) Particular holes that somehow amplify against teams that are as talented as the Zags or have great coaching (We still do not have a true back to the basket big man except for freshman Sacre who will get PT but probably won't be completely ready; no real replacement for DRav's unbelievable free throw shooting; no outside shooter who can consistently create their own shot; 4) some unforseen behavior issues (uh, probably don't need to elaborate on that this year); or 5) X the unknown factor. I am full of optimism but I also plan to get as much joy out of watching the team and the individuals progress. It's the journey, people.

sonuvazag
04-05-2007, 10:19 PM
Whereas I thought those teams in the past did something amazing just to get ranked so highly in the polls, I don't think I would be so surprised if this group reached the top 5, especially if it's racking up wins against the WCC again while other schools get knocked down by power conference losses. I agree with the consensus. They do have more talent and depth. Those past groups surprised everyone.

My hopes for this team are:
To surprise us and achieve great things that we can't dream up for them.
To balance Gonzaga's past glory with its future aspirations and
To have the time of their lives doing it.

RebornZag
04-05-2007, 10:21 PM
Posted by TuckC
Playing Devil's Advocate here, but not everything has been answered here. Raivio's free throw shooting will be missed;
__________________________________________________ _______________

The Zags will miss Raivio and Mallon. That's what makes college basketball so exciting. Players come, then they go, and then new ones come and go. Drav and Sean will NOT be missed as much as AMMO,JP and Errol that's for sure. This years team had no one to fill those shoes, even though there was one who gave everything he had to try to.

This year we didn't have enough guys. I felt we were always a guy or two short. We were really hurting in the low post all year. It was the hole in the donut. Mallon and Kuso could not fill the void. Our success this year will have much to do with filling that void. If we can we will be very successful. The guy, imo, who will fill that is going to be Theo Davis. He's kind of the forgotten Zag, along with Larry G. Posters here talk about all the good players at other schools (and that's great and interesting too) but I think we need to begin to learn more about Theo Davis. Although I have known only a little about him, something in my gut tells me he's going to be incredible this next year...better then the guy coming to USF (was it lowhorn). My guts tell me the same thing about Daye.

Tyra posts "I am full of optimism but I also plan to get as much joy out of watching the team and the individuals progress. It's the journey, people." There's so much truth to this idea. Watching the evolution of a player (the journey) is a great joy, and in many ways is what college basketball at GU is all about. There seems to be layers or tiers of development. That's why I look forward to seeing Pargo, Bouldin, Downs and Larry G. I want to see how much different they are, as well as how much better they are, then last year. This year was inexperience for sure. Next year? I don't think so. It actually could be pretty mind blowing to tell you the truth. BobZag hints about it too.
__________________________________________________ _______________
"Not sure if there will be five better point guards in the country next year than Jeremy Pargo, and he'll be flanked by a vastly improved Matt Bouldin and a vastly improved Micah Downs, both of whom bringing something different to the table, providing a variety of ways to attack defenses."
__________________________________________________ _______________

I'm getting excited!!!:D

dawgman1999
04-05-2007, 10:32 PM
Playing Devil's Advocate here, but not everything has been answered here. Raivio's free throw shooting will be missed; Grier was a major contributor in play calling; and we don't know about the evolution of Bouldin, the effects of Freshman contribution and demands of playing time, and how Josh will act and be treated. But I believe a Top 15 forsure. They will be a threat, but who will be the trademark "shooter" guard who Gonzaga has been known for (Frahm, Santangelo, Dickau, etc.)

Look at Memphis this year. A terrible FT team, but won 22 straight before losing in the regional final. It's not like Rav shoots 15 FT a game to make that much of a difference. He only averaged about 5 a game. That's 5 pts! A decent FT shooter at 80% would make 4 out of 5. The difference is about 1 pt a game between Raivio and a 80% FT shooter. That's not worth much.

dawgman1999
04-05-2007, 10:39 PM
The hating by Huskies is old hat, but it stems from jealousy. They had a cute little 3-year run and it's over. A tough pill to swallow. We understand.


BobZag: just try to keep some eternal optimists in this board fair and honest. I see some ridiculous posts here saying this Zag team and the UF team that won 2 straight NC is close. Just try to get those people wake up and face the reality.

Bob, do you really feel a first year Theo Davis will = a junior Noah, and next year's Downs = 2007 FF MOP Corey Brewer, and Heytvelt = Horford? And people here are expecting ALL 3 of that will happen next year. Come on, that's just ridiculous. You know you have a better chance winning the lottery than ALL 3 happening next year.

MDABE80
04-05-2007, 11:06 PM
Horford- 13.2 ppg 9.1 rpg
Noah - 12.1 ppg 8.2 rpg
Brewer - 12.7 ppg 4.5 rpg

Josh - 15.8 ppg 7.8 rpg
Downs 8.4 ppg ( average 12.5 ppg in the last 5 games) 3.4 rpg ( recovering from a broken foot)
Theo.....17.8 ppg 15 rpg in the toughest NYC league. No college yet.

Ya see 99, do I REALLY think these 3 guys can do those numbers? Yeah I do.
And there plenty of data to support it. You can say that it's the WCC and you might be right. Micah ididn't get much OOC. Josh did and he cleaned up against the tourney teams. As for Theo...he's 6 ft 10 with a 40 inch vertical.
I don't think it's far off to think those 3 Zags couldn't match those FL numbers. Josh already has. You might not agree because you just don't want to. Fla wasn't a major scoring machine this past year. They played some good defense.

As to whether BZ or anyone seriously believes Josh, Theo and Micah can put up similar numbers........yeah I do. In fact, I expect it. Now run along....you've been dispatched.

dawgman1999
04-05-2007, 11:14 PM
The hating by Huskies is old hat, but it stems from jealousy. They had a cute little 3-year run and it's over. A tough pill to swallow. We understand.


Our run is over? Last I check, Romar is doing great with recruiting and the team will be much more experienced next year. BobZag, why would we be envious on your team. It's still 50-50 that Hawes will come back next year. If he comes back, I think we are better than you guys. We had a young team this year and it was tough to start the Pac 10 0-5. But we played better and better and eventually knocked down UCLA in the final game. Hawes - Brockman - Pondexter + incoming freshman Mathew Bryan-Amaning will form the best front court in CBB next year. You have to say that's better than the Heytvelt - Kuso - Downs frontline you guys have. I have Hawes > Heytvelt, Brockman >>>>> Kuso and Pondexter > Downs. I have your backcourt a little better, but we have a Nate Robinson like player Isaiah Thomas coming in. Not as strong as Nate, but a much better shooter than Nate at this stage. The Brockman over Kuso match up is what tilts the edge to UW, IMO. Too bad we couldn't prove it unless we meet at the tourney.

dawgman1999
04-05-2007, 11:26 PM
Horford- 13.2 ppg 9.1 rpg
Noah - 12.1 ppg 8.2 rpg
Brewer - 12.7 ppg 4.5 rpg

Josh - 15.8 ppg 7.8 rpg
Downs 8.4 ppg ( average 12.5 ppg in the last 5 games) 3.4 rpg ( recovering from a broken foot)
Theo.....17.8 ppg 15 rpg in the toughest NYC league. No college yet.

Ya see 99, do I REALLY think these 3 guys can do those numbers? Yeah I do.
And there plenty of data to support it. You can say that it's the WCC and you might be right. Micah ididn't get much OOC. Josh did and he cleaned up against the tourney teams. As for Theo...he's 6 ft 10 with a 40 inch vertical.
I don't think it's far off to think those 3 Zags couldn't match those FL numbers. Josh already has. You might not agree because you just don't want to. Fla wasn't a major scoring machine this past year. They played some good defense.

As to whether BZ or anyone seriously believes Josh, Theo and Micah can put up similar numbers........yeah I do. In fact, I expect it. Now run along....you've been dispatched.

Abe: that's a ridiculous comparison. First, Davis is not going to be a 12-8 guy in the tourney in his freshman year. Second, you only compare offense, but what about defense? Downs is not going to score 14 on Brewer now. Did you frigging watch the FF and see how Brewer totally shot down Affalo, a first team AP AA, and the trio of Lewis, Butler and Harris? Whoever Brewer matches up with isn't going to score, period. Downs might have some talent, but he will NEVER be the defensive player Brewer is. Same goes for Josh Heytvelt vs. Horford. The fact is that all 3 of those UF guys are FAR, FAR superior defensive players than the 3 guys you mentioned here. Heytvelt, Downs and Davis MIGHT average that many points in WCC play, but they are NOT going to average that many facing Noah, Horford and Brewer. On the other hand, Noah, Horford and Brewer will score more than their average against the Gonzaga D. The team you are talking about is a 20pt underdog to this year's UF team, at the very least. They scored 76 on UCLA's defense, they scored 86 and 84 against the BEST defensive player in the country, Greg Oden. They'd score 90+ on the Zags, and they will limit the Zags to 70 or less. That's how I see the game will turn out.

It's a joke to compare next year's young Zags team to THE best CBB team in the last 15 years.

Nevtelen
04-05-2007, 11:46 PM
Our run is over? Last I check, Romar is doing great with recruiting and the team will be much more experienced next year. BobZag, why would we be envious on your team. It's still 50-50 that Hawes will come back next year. If he comes back, I think we are better than you guys. We had a young team this year and it was tough to start the Pac 10 0-5. But we played better and better and eventually knocked down UCLA in the final game. Hawes - Brockman - Pondexter + incoming freshman Mathew Bryan-Amaning will form the best front court in CBB next year. You have to say that's better than the Heytvelt - Kuso - Downs frontline you guys have. I have Hawes > Heytvelt, Brockman >>>>> Kuso and Pondexter > Downs. I have your backcourt a little better, but we have a Nate Robinson like player Isaiah Thomas coming in. Not as strong as Nate, but a much better shooter than Nate at this stage. The Brockman over Kuso match up is what tilts the edge to UW, IMO. Too bad we couldn't prove it unless we meet at the tourney.

This from the guy who just said that he wanted to keep the eternal optimists fair and honest? Ok, man. You just go right on believing what you want to believe.

We destroyed you guys this year after you chickened out of playing us in the future. We beat more quality teams on road/neutral courts than you beat at home. We have a much stronger recruiting class. And we have the majority of our key players back next year. Even if Hawes returns (a big if), we would obliterate you again. Give it a rest.

And, BTW, Thomas isn't coming to UW until 2008 - academic issues that he's in prep school to fix. So good luck at PG next season!

MDABE80
04-05-2007, 11:49 PM
It's not ridiculous just because YOU say it is. You said that the 3 Zags couldn't seriously be compared..........not in a 3 on 3. Just the offensive stats. Well it's not too far a stretch to say that they can. That's all my post was intended to be. Facts are facts. YOU haven't seen Theo play yet. And you've only seen a bit of Micah. Obviously Josh is superior . He didn't have another big man this year to help him out.

This upcoming year will be different. Oh and you're right about that "cute lil 3 year" thing. Nope it was 2.5 years. And lucky to be that long. SInce Romo ran off, we'll not know if the Zags could repeat this past year's 20 pt beatdown.

It's the defense that counts in my book. Your post focuses on offense though. I answered it. Case closed. Next year the humble Zags will have one of the finest frontlines in America. Watch and learn........Abe

BroncoZAG615
04-06-2007, 01:12 AM
To be sure about this post I probably scanned the original thread up to 10 times. Dawgman, I don't know where you see us comparing ourselves to Corey Brewer, Al Horford, and Joakim Noah, (at least before you brought it up) maybe my computer is not as good as yours. Call me crazy, but the depth of this team is scary. Maybe the best move your coach made is to drop our game with you guys cause it would be embaressing to the "U" of Washington. To compare us to Florida would be silly, we are too young to be that. But we are deeper and could mae a great run. Teams like Florida only come around every now and then. That much talent in one class is an accomplishment, but our talent is impossible to ignore, unless you are ignorant. Imagine a front court of Heytvelt, Theo, and Micah and a backcourt of Bouldin and Pargo. I forget to even metion Daye, Gray, Sacre, who by the way is our best recruiting class in history. And, forget to mention Ira Brown who will be receiving significant minutes. But alas, I forget to mention LG and our glue guy Pendo. I really see not shortcomings in this team next year and dreams of final fours honestly sit in my head. I really wish I could fast forward to next year because it truly will be unreal. Go ZAGS baby. All we have to do is get Gus Johnson and Bill Raftery at every one of our games and my goal will be complete! :)

Birddog
04-06-2007, 05:06 AM
JEEEEEEZUS fellas. Do you guys go home and argue with your wives and girlfriends? If you want the Dawgman to go away, ignore his posts!!!!!!!!!! Nothing, I mean NOTHING is as effective at eliminating trolls as ostracization. Try it and see.

Eschew Obfuscation!!!!

Birddog