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BobZag
05-25-2009, 04:30 PM
There is an on-going TV ad that promotes the ten Pac-10 schools. It's actually pretty good ad. But I have a question.

The promo says "Ten elite universities."

I guess my question is: Is WSU or OSU or Oregon or ASU or Arizona really, truly "elite?" I have always considered Stanford to be elite, there is no question about that. But the former five schools? If they are all "elite," what other schools qualify as "elite."

Just curious.

kitzbuel
05-25-2009, 05:13 PM
All the schools are elite, but some schools are more elite than others.

http://images-cdn01.associatedcontent.com/image/A3003/30037/300_30037.jpg

gmo
05-25-2009, 05:15 PM
It is a good question. I would say no way that all 10 universities are elite by any measure but of course it is an advertisement. McDonald's often calls themselves "healthy" and "fresh" in their ads. Oil companies and their green ad campaigns... there are many examples.

Just my opinion, but I think U.S. News and World Report and others who measure such things probably agree but academically I would say the only real "elite" universities in the conference are Stanford, UC Berkeley, and UCLA. All very tough to get into (Stanford in Ivy League stratosphere), all considered top 15-20 universities by most overall.

If they mean elite by sports standards, I am going with UCLA, Stanford, and USC as the only truly elite across multiple sports.

I have to say that as much as some dislike that university on this board which I have seen over the years, I have always been impressed by Stanford... Ivy League academics while excelling in sports consistently.

Just one yahoo's opinion.

gamagin
05-25-2009, 05:56 PM
There is an on-going TV ad that promotes the ten Pac-10 schools. It's actually pretty good ad. But I have a question.

The promo says "Ten elite universities."

I guess my question is: Is WSU or OSU or Oregon or ASU or Arizona really, truly "elite?" I have always considered Stanford to be elite, there is no question about that. But the former five schools? If they are all "elite," what other schools qualify as "elite."

Just curious.

including Alpine College, Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University, ITT technical Institute & The Little House of Different Cultures, which, imo, is a sleeper elite, but elite nonetheless.

xjzico
05-25-2009, 06:19 PM
Half are public ivys or ivy equivalents. Two thirds of the Pac10 probably rank within the top 100 or so schools in the world. Not too shabby and depends on what you consider elite.

CaliforniaZaggin'
05-25-2009, 06:42 PM
I would definitely consider University of Arizona to be elite. It has numerous strong academic programs, including business, law, and engineering, and an impressive list of alumni and faculty. If UA was in Phoenix rather than Tucson, it'd be right there with schools like UCLA, Berkeley, and UW -- even still, it's not far behind.

CB4
05-25-2009, 06:53 PM
OT, but I think it's safe to say the WCC has eight "elite" universities. Sure they aren't Ivy League elite research-wise but as student orientated schools they are among the nation's best.

USNWR Master's Universities (West)

SCU - 2nd
GU - 3rd
LMU - 4th
Portland - 9th
SMC - 14th

National Rankings

Pepperdine - 56th - Tier 1
USD - 102nd - Tier 1
USF - 127th - Tier 1

Another great thing about the WCC is that 7/8 schools are Catholic.

duper
05-25-2009, 06:54 PM
I don't know much about the Pac 10 institutions, other than Stanford, UCLA, and those schools. But WSU is NOT elite IMO. It doesnt take much to get accepted into WSU, and its in Pullman!!!

Try getting into WSU vet school. Engineering is also very well thought of. Elite no way but some very very good programs.

MickMick
05-25-2009, 07:40 PM
Elite, like happiness, is simply a state of mind. Mere perception. The brightest student at Oregon State is probably elite if compared to the poorest student at Stanford.

College is comparable to boot camp in the military. Such a short duration as compared to the rest of your life "tour." Yet people wish to dwell on that relatively short time span as compared to the entirety of one's life. A better measure of elite would be how an individual uses their education to achieve their career goals.

Then again, there are those that wish to live the entirety of their life attending college. Perhaps they can be called elite college students. Perhaps they are missing the stark reality of "the real world" as well. In other words, college isn't the "end all" with respect to acquiring wisdom. It certainly isn't a guaranteed path to becoming elite as well.

ZagNut08
05-25-2009, 08:29 PM
I would consider UCLA and Stanford to be elite

In H/S the college counselors would say this about many Pac-10 schools, "All you need is a pulse and a paycheck to get in."

duper
05-25-2009, 09:02 PM
http://www.top-law-schools.com/rankings.html

I know bashing the pac 10 is fun but it doesn't change reality.

roxdoc
05-25-2009, 09:26 PM
Some (Most) Pac-10 schools have excellent programs in specific areas, but as an overall ranking I would say Stanford which is generally ranked in the top 10 Tier I schools is certainly elite. Last time I looked (couple of years ago) UW was 45th and WSU 168th out of the about 350 Tier I schools. Non Ivy schools flirting with the top 10 include MIT, Cal Tech, Duke, Stanford, and Northwestern.

hoopster777
05-25-2009, 10:02 PM
The Pac 10 is marketing itself as the top academic conference. I'd say between the ACC, Big 10, and the Pac 10, theres close competition for best academic conference. ACC is probably the best rounded, but only Duke could really be considered elite university. Pac 10 has the best school of the group (Stanford) but WSU/OSU really drag down the quality of the conference. The worst school in both the ACC and Big 10 are still better than WSU.

Its no coincidence that the better universities in the Pac 10 are located in major metropolitan areas in the United States, which seems to be a trend nationwide, with some exceptions. Pullman is a dump. Hard to see even a massive amount of investment into WSU doing anything to increase the academics upwards to match the other schools in the conference. It just simply is not an appealing place to be for most young people to go to. I know I'm going to get bashed by those who have a connection to WSU, but they need the students so they accept a lesser quality of student from high school.

zagco
05-25-2009, 10:27 PM
Unless there's an even better term than "elite" (e.g., uber-elite, ultra-elite, unbelievably elite, etc.) Zagco thinks that the only schools that really pop open eyes on anyone are the Ivy League schools, Stanford, and small, small handful other schools. However, even those other schools might not have the name cache to cause a uniform gasp.

hls97
05-26-2009, 08:52 AM
The only real elite schools are the Ivys, Stanford, MIT, Cal Tech, Johns Hopkins, and perhaps Chicago and Duke.

Everything else -- including UCLA and Berkeley -- are down a notch or two.

jbslicer
05-26-2009, 09:50 AM
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/382985/university_of_montana_attend_a_rhodes.html

MDABE80
05-26-2009, 11:14 AM
1. Amazed at Montana!..who knew?
2. Hoopster.....not to be too hard on WSU but it's charter is different from other schools. It's mission is more "practical"....and not intended to be a law school, med school, business school....Elite place. I can't criticise how the place is....it's actually performing very well according to it's mission.
3. HIS is pretty much on the money when it comes to Elite places. I'm never one to NOT bash UW......if money was the thing that determined "Eliteness" UW should be. It's not close to it though.

lothar98zag
05-26-2009, 11:32 AM
I don't know much about the Pac 10 institutions, other than Stanford, UCLA, and those schools. But WSU is NOT elite IMO. It doesnt take much to get accepted into WSU, and its in Pullman!!!
So the location of a University affects the quality how?

Mr Vulture
05-26-2009, 12:07 PM
Washington State has 3 schools that would be elite in my book. The School of Veterinary Medicine, the Engineering School, and the Agricultural School. I wouldn't say they are elite in the sense of attaining a 4yr general studies degree but those schools are very well regarded and not easy to get into.

duper
05-26-2009, 12:17 PM
So the location of a University affects the quality how?

Some people here have spent very little time in Pullman. Pullman is a great college town with a great college town atmosphere. Gonzaga is a great school with great tradition, and can stand on its own, without bashing other schools. It gives the appearance of an inferority complex "small man syndrome" when people bash and compare Gonzaga vs PAC 10 schools. IMO its apples and oranges. Gonzaga is not a PAC 10 school and is not trying to be. Pac 10 schools are not small private schools and are not trying to be.

Not better not worse, just different.

roxdoc
05-26-2009, 01:37 PM
Hmmmm......Ivys are all small and private...

SpudDawg
05-26-2009, 11:28 PM
Oh, come on. Wazzu is like your favorite drunken uncle -- lots of fun, kind of crazy in a good way, capable of uttering the occasional brilliant statement. Then the slurring sets in, which leads to sleeping in a chair or on a couch, and lots of loud snoring. Lots of memories and giggling for years to come.

Hmm ... say, for the 2 years I was in grad school at Wazzu, I WAS your favorite drunken uncle!

hoopster777
05-26-2009, 11:38 PM
So the location of a University affects the quality how?


Are you serious? The location of the school affects the quality of the student, investment into the university, job opportunities post graduation, the quality of professors, etc. Location is absolutely important in assessing the quality of the school.

ToreroStudent
05-27-2009, 12:50 AM
Every conference has its good and bad apples. Standford is hands down better than WSU, but each is a post high school accredited four year university. This alone puts them in an elite class in my opinion.

Obviously some schools are a lot better than others for various reasons, but if you have made it to an actual university in which you are paying some odd amount of money to be educated, then you have made it to an elite school and that school should be able to advertise itself as such.

The Pac 10 is an elite conference academically, but so is every other conference in the nation in my opinion. The Pac 10 may be more dominant than others, but many universities are still elite.

mgadfly
05-27-2009, 07:41 AM
The commercial says they are elite universities. The class being compared is "universities."

From my Webster's Collegiate Dictionary the question(s) would then be: Are Pac-10 universities the choice part or best universities? Are Pac-10 universities the best of the universities?

I'd say, looking at them as a whole, I'd say that they are "elite." Looking at some of them individually, I'd argue that they are not the best of the universities.

lothar98zag
05-27-2009, 08:10 AM
Are you serious? The location of the school affects the quality of the student, investment into the university, job opportunities post graduation, the quality of professors, etc. Location is absolutely important in assessing the quality of the school.
So whether a university is elite/not-elite or good/bad can be determined by where the university is located?

gamagin
05-27-2009, 09:45 AM
an elite school is where I went. Where my parents, siblings and relatives attended, too, for the most part.

An institution where we went, mingled, lived, learned and loved.

We now listen mostly to each other, agree with each other and meet and marry like minds, who, then become elites, too. Or our enablers.

All the rest of the commoners need to come to grips with that and everything will be fine.

But the Catch 22 remains: those who did not do as I did, have come to get all haughty and stuffy and think THEY are the elites. They even steal the same reasons I cite for THEIR elitism, status and place in the world pecking order.

So, to surmise:

THEY are the pretenders. Me and mine are the real deal. Get it ?

Hope that helps.

hoopster777
05-27-2009, 02:12 PM
So whether a university is elite/not-elite or good/bad can be determined by where the university is located?

First of all I don't think any education is a bad education, they just scale on quality.

Secondly, location drives the university based on the other factors that go into a university. Money is what the world revolves around, and universities are no different. They are a business. Elite universities remain elite because they can invest their endowment money into creating the top facilities, the most amount of money for research, attracting the smartest/most talented professors (not necessarily the best teachers though), and can offer the most academic scholarship money, which all goes into attracting the nations top students. Now how well a university is positioned to a major metropolitan city with lots of money, and large alumni base drives how much money goes into that universities endowment.

Look at the top 20 generally recognized universities in America. Do you think its a coincidence that most are either in or near a major American city? Even schools on the east coast like Dartmouth or Princeton are in small towns, but both are within reach of major metropolitan areas. Large cities bring so much more opportunity (professional and cultural opportunity) than small cities or towns.

Pullman is not good location. It affects the type of student that is attracted to WSU, many of which who couldn't get into UW. Maybe some are attracted to the small town atmosphere, but the opportunities that Pullman offers vs. Stanford aren't even comparable. Thats why the nations top talent aren't lining up to get into WSU. Its a secondary choice for most in state students. Do you really think that location has nothing to do with quality of the university?

Coug Tracks
05-27-2009, 02:36 PM
Pullman is not good location. It affects the type of student that is attracted to WSU, many of which who couldn't get into UW. Maybe some are attracted to the small town atmosphere, but the opportunities that Pullman offers vs. Stanford aren't even comparable. Thats why the nations top talent aren't lining up to get into WSU. Its a secondary choice for most in state students. Do you really think that location has nothing to do with quality of the university?

Location plays a role without question however the college experience comes down to what you make out of it. I long have held all the weaknesses I’m sure you feel are part of the college experience in Pullman are “in the eye of the beholder”. Many of those weaknesses are a selling point to some. There also are strengths in the WSU and Pullman experience that are attractive that are not present in a metropolitan area. Again though, different strokes for different folks. Not everyone wants the same experience.

Here’s what it comes down to though for me. Most of “us” are talking about the undergraduate experience. While Stanford or Harvard looks great on a resume there is really is not a significant difference between most degrees at the undergraduate level. When you get to the Master’s or PHD level is really where the gap becomes significant. Most of those master and above students are not even American-born. They are international students taking advantage of the great access we have in this country.

duper
05-27-2009, 03:48 PM
Everybody wants something different from college. In the eighties I can remember going to Zag games with 1 maybe 2 hundred students and the rest of the gym being near empty. While this was always fun, it was not much bigger of an event than going to Jazz night at Jack and Dans. The "Elite Level" of the basketball program has elevated IMO the college experience at Gonzaga for the last 10 yrs and it is awesome. You see Gonzaga gear and stickers everywhere in spokane and beyond and that to is awesome. The only thing missing in the Zag experience is the amazing specticle that is college football, but I'll take an elite b-ball program and call it good.

(FOR NOW!)

ps with pads and helmets last yrs Zags would have given the Cougar football team a run for thier money.

gamagin
05-27-2009, 03:59 PM
I have read about alot of more famous people eminating from Moo U than GU, over the years. Three huge exceptions being der Bingle and the Stock, & former Speaker Tom Foley. Bing & Stock, ironically (to me anyway) grew up in the neighborhood, went to the neighborhood catholic grade school and Gonzaga Hi School (Prep for Stock).

at any rate, the discussion here has become elitist. the elites comparing WSU to others, imo. without any real grist for the mill.

Here are but a few WSU alums known all over the world.

* Edward R. Murrow - Father of television news broadcasting; WWII radio correspondent; "Hear It Now" radio program host
* Gary Larson - Far Side cartoonist
* Patty Murray - U.S. senator representing Washington state
* Paul Allen - Co-founder of Microsoft; owner of the Seattle Seahawks and the Portland Trailblazers; philanthropist
* Philip Abelson - Father of the nuclear-fueled submarine; Manhattan Project participant; former editor of Science magazine
* Sherman Alexie - Acclaimed author and film maker
* William Julius Wilson - African-American scholar, author of "The Truly Disadvantaged: The Inner City, the Underclass, and Public Policy" and "The Declining Significance of Race"; one of nine people to receive the National Medal of Science for creativity, resolve, and innovation.
* dozens of NFL football players.
* dozens of NBA basketball players
* many dozens of big league baseball players
* world class runners (Henry Rono perhaps being the best, But Gerry Lindgren and Rick Riley, too)
* Hundreds of world class veterinarians & a truly world class equine research facility and research center.

--
add: Keith jackson

fwiw.

roxdoc
05-27-2009, 06:53 PM
WSU being a substantial regional school for many years is sure to have turned out a nice list of alums. U of Idaho has a list similar to that of WSU with astronauts, ambassadors, etc. U Penn which I am familiar with had 4 or 5 of their alums sign the Declaration of Independence, and gave an honorary degree to Thomas Payne in the 1700's!

GU although an old school by western standards, has always been smaller and thus less graduates etc. IMHO the increase in enrollment and the strengthening academic atmosphere now underway will make its alumni mark (not to say that some current alums don't have a certain notoriety!) BTW Gamagin forgot Tom Foley.

CB4
05-27-2009, 06:57 PM
Here’s what it comes down to though for me. Most of “us” are talking about the undergraduate experience. While Stanford or Harvard looks great on a resume there is really is not a significant difference between most degrees at the undergraduate level.

Hmm I don't know about that. I'd much rather have a degree in any field, from the history to engineering to business, from an Ivy League school over another school. An undergraduate business degree from Harvard or is certainly more significant than a degree from a state school or Public Ivy.

hoopster777
05-27-2009, 08:02 PM
I have read about alot of more famous people eminating from Moo U than GU, over the years. Three huge exceptions being der Bingle and the Stock, & former Speaker Tom Foley. Bing & Stock, ironically (to me anyway) grew up in the neighborhood, went to the neighborhood catholic grade school and Gonzaga Hi School (Prep for Stock).

at any rate, the discussion here has become elitist. the elites comparing WSU to others, imo. without any real grist for the mill.

Here are but a few WSU alums known all over the world.

* Edward R. Murrow - Father of television news broadcasting; WWII radio correspondent; "Hear It Now" radio program host
* Gary Larson - Far Side cartoonist
* Patty Murray - U.S. senator representing Washington state
* Paul Allen - Co-founder of Microsoft; owner of the Seattle Seahawks and the Portland Trailblazers; philanthropist
* Philip Abelson - Father of the nuclear-fueled submarine; Manhattan Project participant; former editor of Science magazine
* Sherman Alexie - Acclaimed author and film maker
* William Julius Wilson - African-American scholar, author of "The Truly Disadvantaged: The Inner City, the Underclass, and Public Policy" and "The Declining Significance of Race"; one of nine people to receive the National Medal of Science for creativity, resolve, and innovation.
* dozens of NFL football players.
* dozens of NBA basketball players
* many dozens of big league baseball players
* world class runners (Henry Rono perhaps being the best, But Gerry Lindgren and Rick Riley, too)
* Hundreds of world class veterinarians & a truly world class equine research facility and research center.

--
add: Keith jackson

fwiw.

Statistically WSU is going to have more famous graduates than Gonzaga, it has nearly five times the enrollment.

Coug Tracks
05-27-2009, 09:03 PM
Hmm I don't know about that. I'd much rather have a degree in any field, from the history to engineering to business, from an Ivy League school over another school. An undergraduate business degree from Harvard or is certainly more significant than a degree from a state school or Public Ivy.

I went "is" crazy in my post. ;)

Hard to disagree with you and I might have exaggerated a bit but not much. I think you are talking more about perception and perhaps that equates to increased value. There just is not a huge difference between most undergraduate degrees that many people like or want to believe, IMHO.

ZagsGoZags
05-27-2009, 09:51 PM
I've probably lost touch, but Cal up until the 80's anyway, was in the top ten in many departments in the whole country.

according to http://mup.asu.edu/research2008.pdf


the Pac10 has 4 of the top 13 universities, overall, in the US
Stanford [3rd], Cal 10, UCLA 11, and UW 13. followed by a huge jump down to
26 USC, and UofA at 37

But UC Berkeley is 2nd in nation for public universities. Overall, including private

and public, Cal and Stanford seem to be perennially in the top ten nationally. Princeton lags far behind Harvard and Yale

the same generalizations are supported by this rating agency as well

http://www.academicanalytics.com/TopSchools/TopSchools.aspx

roxdoc
05-27-2009, 09:58 PM
Key word there is "public" univesities

dawgfather11
05-27-2009, 10:01 PM
WSU could easily be dropped from the pac-10 and replaced by anything really... but Utah would be nice :P

Coug Tracks
05-28-2009, 10:18 AM
WSU could easily be dropped from the pac-10 and replaced by anything really... but Utah would be nice :P

Perhaps that is true and it happened in the past. In 1958 UW, SC, UCLA, and Cal (Stanford joined them a year later) voted to boot WSU, Oregon, and Oregon State. They asked WSU back all of 4 years later in 1962. Then Oregon and OSU came back 2 years later and the Arizona's came in less than a decade later. The setup in the Pac 10 works for all concerned.

Here's what the "haves" don't want "us" small fish to know though. They need us to survive in the manner they are now accustomed. Without schools like WSU and OSU and even further down the chain like Ball State, Central Michigan, etc., the model would fail.

A total of 19 public athletic departments had a surplus according to an article in the Oregon Daily Emerald. Probably even less programs if you were to exclude subsidies. The model is broken but it favors the big programs even though it is the small fish that hold it up.

lothar98zag
05-28-2009, 01:07 PM
...Do you really think that location has nothing to do with quality of the university?

No, but you can't determine a schools quality just by it's location.

I looke at this list of "elite" schools...
http://www.academicanalytics.com/TopSchools/TopSchools.aspx
...and see plenty of "bad" locations.

gamagin
05-28-2009, 01:18 PM
[QUOTE=hoopster777;433456]Statistically WSU is going to have more famous graduates than Gonzaga, it has nearly five times the enrollment.[/QUOTE


"42.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot." -- Steven Wright

bballbeachbum
05-29-2009, 04:23 PM
an elite school is where I went. Where my parents, siblings and relatives attended, too, for the most part.

An institution where we went, mingled, lived, learned and loved.

We now listen mostly to each other, agree with each other and meet and marry like minds, who, then become elites, too. Or our enablers.

All the rest of the commoners need to come to grips with that and everything will be fine.

But the Catch 22 remains: those who did not do as I did, have come to get all haughty and stuffy and think THEY are the elites. They even steal the same reasons I cite for THEIR elitism, status and place in the world pecking order.

So, to surmise:

THEY are the pretenders. Me and mine are the real deal. Get it ?

Hope that helps.

Let them eat cake!!!

also funny to see Cal mentioned; aren't they THE anti-elitists? or perhaps the elite anti-elitists?

hoopster777
05-29-2009, 10:00 PM
No, but you can't determine a schools quality just by it's location.

I looke at this list of "elite" schools...
http://www.academicanalytics.com/TopSchools/TopSchools.aspx
...and see plenty of "bad" locations.


i meant location has a SIGNIFICANT amount to do with the quality of the school.

you originally said "and the location of the school affects the quality how?"

ZagsGoZags
05-30-2009, 07:36 AM
I don't think it is 'funny' that Cal is mentioned when you consider that what is being ranked is national output of quality academic research. In terms of being cozy with or uncritical of the power elite of the USA, they would rank lower probably (a credit to them IMHO).

bballbeachbum
05-30-2009, 10:15 AM
I don't think it is 'funny' that Cal is mentioned when you consider that what is being ranked is national output of quality academic research. In terms of being cozy with or uncritical of the power elite of the USA, they would rank lower probably (a credit to them IMHO).

Right on GoZags. I hear you.

I am a Cal alum, and aside from the greek system, in the 80s when I was there you'd have been hard pressed to find any other proud elitist; that's basically still true, has been for decades. so in going w/ gamagin's theme/definition of elite which I quoted, the irony just struck me. The culture there is very anti-elite, anti establishment, pro ACLU, etc. and typically on that side of the ball.

so to me, it is 'funny' then for Cal to be labeled elite, but I get what you're saying of course, man; academically and more we kick butt up and down the board...true :)

Go Bears! Grrrrr!