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View Full Version : Is it selfish or pure idiocy for me to want more 5-star recruits?



AzZag
04-23-2009, 11:22 AM
3-star recruites are great....but can't we get more 5-stars????

just wondering

NorthWestZag
04-23-2009, 11:33 AM
I will take 3 and 4 stars who actually care about the program and stay all four years, rather than a five star who's only interest is playing the required 1 year then jumping to the NBA.

cbbfanatic
04-23-2009, 12:12 PM
You're not selfish or idiotic to want more 5 star prospects, and I'm positive that Few would take more if he could.

Not all 5 star kids are one or two year mercenaries. Rankings are far from perfect, but if you have the opportunity to get 1-2 of these kids every few years, you do it.

cjm720
04-23-2009, 01:13 PM
There are a lot of 3 star recruits that should be a 4-5 and vice versa. Scouts don't know all. I hear ya though.

Go Zags!!

CDC84
04-23-2009, 02:01 PM
I want as many great players as Gonzaga can get, but realize that until the Zags make a couple of final 4's or something, the staff is going to have to be creative when it comes to landing talented players.

I want to see how good Harris, Arop, Olynyk and Kong are before I start writing off some of the newcomers as being a bunch of "3 star" recruits. There is a reason why the staff is recruiting internationally at a level we haven't seen before. I have a strong feeling that if Harris and Kong went to high school in the States, and were consistently watched by all these recruiting analysts, they probably wouldn't be 3 star types. Both are supposedly better than Arop, who is a 4 star player with Rivals based on Meyer seeing him by chance at a tournament in Oregon last offseason.

229SintoZag
04-23-2009, 02:50 PM
How many stars were Dickau, Morrison, Turiaf and Batista?

I forget.

Hextall7388
04-23-2009, 03:07 PM
I do too, but so does every other basketball program in the country.

The harsh reality is, while some may be in love with 3 star recruits and finding the diamonds in the rough, national championships are won by teams loaded with 5 star recruits, just look at the last two winners UNC had 4 and Kansas had 4

I think the simple answer to why we cannot land a 5 star recruit (except for Austin of course) can be found if you ask yourself this simple question:

I'm a 5 star recruit, and I can go to any school in the country to play basketball....where do I want to go?

Would you really pick Spokane and Gonzaga? Let me be clear, this is in no way a rip on the city or the university....but be objective people! The factors that I would consider (in no particular order):

1) Coach: Few is a very good coach, but I could play for Hall of Fame type coaches like Roy Williams, Calhoun, Izzo, Krezyzewski or perhaps Calipari, Holland....the point being, there are lots of very, very good coaches out there.

2) National Championship: I'd want an opportunity to play for a Championship. The Zags do not fall into the category of a contender for a National Championship.

3) Competitive Schedule - play the best competition: The Zags play a great non-conference schedule, but they still play half their games in the WCC.

4) National Exposure: For a mid-major, the Zags have great coverage, but they end up on ESPN 2....Duke, UNC, Kansas, UCLA.....are ESPN and CBS material.

5) Facilities: K2 is a great facility for a mid-major, seating 6,000 and was constructed at a cost of 25 million. In comparison, Kentucky's Rupp Arena holds over 23,000 and the Wildcat's practice facility cost 30 million to construct.

6) Weather - Many of the 5 star recruits reside in California or in the southern states....must be a tough sell to convince them to move across country to live in the pacific northwest and experience the joy of winter.

7) Education - Yes, I have listed education last, but remember, these are not in any particular order. Gonzaga has a very good academic reputation, but the same can be said of numerous schools. If I'm a top 10 high school recruit I have a better than 95% chance of playing in the NBA after a year or two of college....do I really care about the reputation of the science or mathematics department at my college? Right or wrong, my concern would be on the reputation of the basketball program at my college, as that will have a more immediate impact on my future....my draft position.

In view of the competition that the Zags face, I have to admit that the staff does a pretty good job!!

cjm720
04-23-2009, 03:28 PM
I do too, but so does every other basketball program in the country.

The harsh reality is, while some may be in love with 3 star recruits and finding the diamonds in the rough, national championships are won by teams loaded with 5 star recruits, just look at the last two winners UNC had 4 and Kansas had 4

I think the simple answer to why we cannot land a 5 star recruit (except for Austin of course) can be found if you ask yourself this simple question:

I'm a 5 star recruit, and I can go to any school in the country to play basketball....where do I want to go?

Would you really pick Spokane and Gonzaga? Let me be clear, this is in no way a rip on the city or the university....but be objective people! The factors that I would consider (in no particular order):

1) Coach: Few is a very good coach, but I could play for Hall of Fame type coaches like Roy Williams, Calhoun, Izzo, Krezyzewski or perhaps Calipari, Holland....the point being, there are lots of very, very good coaches out there.

2) National Championship: I'd want an opportunity to play for a Championship. The Zags do not fall into the category of a contender for a National Championship.

3) Competitive Schedule - play the best competition: The Zags play a great non-conference schedule, but they still play half their games in the WCC.

4) National Exposure: For a mid-major, the Zags have great coverage, but they end up on ESPN 2....Duke, UNC, Kansas, UCLA.....are ESPN and CBS material.

5) Facilities: K2 is a great facility for a mid-major, seating 6,000 and was constructed at a cost of 25 million. In comparison, Kentucky's Rupp Arena holds over 23,000 and the Wildcat's practice facility cost 30 million to construct.

6) Weather - Many of the 5 star recruits reside in California or in the southern states....must be a tough sell to convince them to move across country to live in the pacific northwest and experience the joy of winter.

7) Education - Yes, I have listed education last, but remember, these are not in any particular order. Gonzaga has a very good academic reputation, but the same can be said of numerous schools. If I'm a top 10 high school recruit I have a better than 95% chance of playing in the NBA after a year or two of college....do I really care about the reputation of the science or mathematics department at my college? Right or wrong, my concern would be on the reputation of the basketball program at my college, as that will have a more immediate impact on my future....my draft position.

In view of the competition that the Zags face, I have to admit that the staff does a pretty good job!!

I'd say the top two reasons why a 5 star players go to a top program is 1) to pursue the NBA and 2) win a title. I'd also add that coaches and parents get their pockets lined too but I admit that I'm getting to be a bit cynical. As an aside, GU's academics have greatly imprvoed over the past 20 years but Duke, NC, UCLA (not sure about Kansas) are all superior acedemic programs, but that's really not why those 5 star kids go there.

AzZag
04-23-2009, 03:40 PM
Thank you...probably one of the most objective and well thought out posts I have read on this site in a long time. Here is another curve ball. How do we, a high major program in disguise as a mid-major, allow such awesome talents like Bradley, Siva, Gaddy, even Casto, escape? I mean, I don't any of those four really gave us a sniff? I suppose my answer is all in the response below, but still, CAN YOU IMAGINE Gaddy, Siva or Bradley in a sweet black Zags jersey????





I do too, but so does every other basketball program in the country.

The harsh reality is, while some may be in love with 3 star recruits and finding the diamonds in the rough, national championships are won by teams loaded with 5 star recruits, just look at the last two winners UNC had 4 and Kansas had 4

I think the simple answer to why we cannot land a 5 star recruit (except for Austin of course) can be found if you ask yourself this simple question:

I'm a 5 star recruit, and I can go to any school in the country to play basketball....where do I want to go?

Would you really pick Spokane and Gonzaga? Let me be clear, this is in no way a rip on the city or the university....but be objective people! The factors that I would consider (in no particular order):

1) Coach: Few is a very good coach, but I could play for Hall of Fame type coaches like Roy Williams, Calhoun, Izzo, Krezyzewski or perhaps Calipari, Holland....the point being, there are lots of very, very good coaches out there.

2) National Championship: I'd want an opportunity to play for a Championship. The Zags do not fall into the category of a contender for a National Championship.

3) Competitive Schedule - play the best competition: The Zags play a great non-conference schedule, but they still play half their games in the WCC.

4) National Exposure: For a mid-major, the Zags have great coverage, but they end up on ESPN 2....Duke, UNC, Kansas, UCLA.....are ESPN and CBS material.

5) Facilities: K2 is a great facility for a mid-major, seating 6,000 and was constructed at a cost of 25 million. In comparison, Kentucky's Rupp Arena holds over 23,000 and the Wildcat's practice facility cost 30 million to construct.

6) Weather - Many of the 5 star recruits reside in California or in the southern states....must be a tough sell to convince them to move across country to live in the pacific northwest and experience the joy of winter.

7) Education - Yes, I have listed education last, but remember, these are not in any particular order. Gonzaga has a very good academic reputation, but the same can be said of numerous schools. If I'm a top 10 high school recruit I have a better than 95% chance of playing in the NBA after a year or two of college....do I really care about the reputation of the science or mathematics department at my college? Right or wrong, my concern would be on the reputation of the basketball program at my college, as that will have a more immediate impact on my future....my draft position.

In view of the competition that the Zags face, I have to admit that the staff does a pretty good job!!

CDC84
04-23-2009, 03:57 PM
Casto didn't escape. Gonzaga wasn't interested in him. And even if they were, he wasn't an elite national recruit like Abdul Gaddy. The central or eastern half of the state hasn't produced a player that GU has been very interested in since Pendo and Heytvelt. Needless to say, Gonzaga is scouting Joe Harris, so that might change.

As for Siva, Gaddy and Bradley....the mega-elite Seattle kids all want to go to factory schools or stay home and play at UW. It's always been that way. A number of things are working against Gonzaga in that area, including some of the high school and AAU coaches who are dead set on these kids attending BCS schools...sometimes for selfish reasons.

bartruff1
04-23-2009, 04:22 PM
you could in fact be both selfish and a idiot...that is not a rare condition..however 5 star recruits tend not to be idiots or have advisors who are not idiots..

BobZag
04-23-2009, 05:38 PM
Would like to get Gary Bell.

4AmericasTeam
04-23-2009, 06:32 PM
Give me another local under the radar guy like Ammo -- perfect for us.

deathchina
04-23-2009, 06:37 PM
Just for fun I looked up the rankings of UNC and KU.


#7 SG Danny Green
#3 PF Tyler Hansbrough
#12 SG Bobby Frasor
#15 SG Marcus Ginyard
#5 C Deon Thompson
#1 SG Wayne Ellington
#1 PG Tywon Lawson
#7 PF Tyler Zeller
#3 PF Ed Davis
#4 PG Larry Drew


KU National Champs sported


#7 C Cole Aldrich
#2 PF Darrell Arthur
#2 PG Sherron Collins
#4 SF Brandon Rush
#1 SF Julian Wright
#2 PG Mario Chalmers
#6 C Sasha Kaun
#6 SG Russell Robinson
#15 PF Darnell Jackson


Florida's back to back National Champs weren't slouches either. But they prove you don't need to have a million high school AA's either.


#8 PF Chris Richard
#12 PF Al Horford
#18 PF Joakim Noah
#5 SF Corey Brewer
#9 PG Walter Hodge
#12 C Marreese Speights



In case anyone is wondering we had

#11 PF Josh Heytvelt
#5 SF Micah Downs
#15 SG Matt Bouldin
#14 SF Austin Daye
#12 PG Demetri Goodson


Not too shabby. I like the direction the staff is going with the international guys. I think we have a great chance of finding "hidden gems" among the internationals.

bigblahla
04-23-2009, 06:43 PM
Can't Coug it but Casto could end up being the lost jewel.

Only saw him in TV games but his motor was running and he had a nose for the ball, extremely active for his size but raw. He has the makings to be one heck of a player. Zags might have whiffed on this one, time will tell.

Go!! Zags!!!

Reborn
04-23-2009, 06:47 PM
Of course Gonzaga can NOT get more 5 star recruits. If we could we would be getting them. I know our coaching staff does all they can to get them, and we are always on the LIST of many five star recruits. We will land one every once in awhile as we did with Austin Daye, he came the year after Morrison was the leading scorer in the country and a #3 lotto pick. Daye had that kind of vision when coming to Gonzaga. That's why I hope Austin comes back because, who knows, if he does come back he may become a lotto pick either next year or the year after.

I do think it will be difficult for the Zags to make the Final Four without at least one 5 star player, and I think two really. I do think that the players coming into the program this Fall is a new reality for the ZAGS, and represent a new kind of recruit...the foreigner in masse. What is it 4? As has been seen these guys may be better then we know. For this reason the next few years will be really really neat for us fans as we see these guys develop. I also have a real good feeling for these guys.

Russell Bevan
04-23-2009, 06:55 PM
Friends,

What were the ratings for the guys who took us to the Elite Eight? I liked those guys, give me more Matts, Caseys and Richards.

Russell

saintzag
04-23-2009, 07:17 PM
Get a 5 star instate recruit . If you cannot do it then settle for less and accept the fact you wont win a ncaa national championship.

4AmericasTeam
04-24-2009, 06:51 AM
Friends,

What were the ratings for the guys who took us to the Elite Eight? I liked those guys, give me more Matts, Caseys and Richards.

Russell

All day long!

Reborn
04-24-2009, 07:18 AM
Is the one star phantom loose again? :lmao:

MDABE80
04-24-2009, 08:58 AM
5 star kids have tons of talent......groomed for the NBA and are huge stars in college. Also though, when have any of you seen a bunch of 5 star kids play TEAM basketball? I can't remember many.

While Hex's post is extensive and well thought out, I'm not so sure his points matter across the board HERE at GU. We've never been heavily invested in the 5 star market because the things that make those kids so sought after are their individual performances. When they advance to the college ranks, they do well but outside of KU, UNC and Duke it has seemed difficult to make them mesh for teamwork........or so it seems to me.

At GU, the program has relied heavily on team being the method of success. So, given what the coaches work for (team ball), and knowing how flashy it would be to have a few of these kids as a nucleus for a great NC team, our acceptance of a 5 star kid really depends on meshing as a team. GU is different from the factory schools (not to denigrate those schools) in it's attitude and structure. I'm not convinced that having 5 or 6 of those kids is practical given the way our teams have been structured over the past decade. Just a thought. I do like the foreign kids coming in and will be glued to their success. I think we're in for a surprise.

gamagin
04-24-2009, 09:07 AM
Can't Coug it but Casto could end up being the lost jewel.

Only saw him in TV games but his motor was running and he had a nose for the ball, extremely active for his size but raw. He has the makings to be one heck of a player. Zags might have whiffed on this one, time will tell.

Go!! Zags!!!

this kid is all bkb potential. Great rags to riches story, too, if he can stick with the program and enjoy good health, good luck and good mentoring.

cbbfanatic
04-24-2009, 09:24 AM
MDABE,

The last two title winners were good TEAMS w 5 star kids. There are a lot of team players that have 5 star ability, they just don't always draw the attention that the others do. Almost seems like some here have an inherent beef with 5 star kids, is that because gu doesn't get these guys or some other reason?

Hextall, great post, couldn't agree more. Facts of life...

CDC84
04-24-2009, 09:53 AM
Get a 5 star instate recruit . If you cannot do it then settle for less and accept the fact you wont win a ncaa national championship.

You're skipping a step my friend.

Most emerging college basketball programs don't win a NCAA championship until they make a final 4 or two. Making the final 4 brings major positive publicity to your program, which allows you access to recruits you didn't have access to previously. It is an absolute fact that you do not need a team full of 5 star players to make the final 4. Over the course of the last 20 years, several teams ranging from Utah to George Mason to Marquette to Stanford to UMass got in the right bracket, had the right group of players and caught enough breaks to win 4 NCAA tourney games in a row with a rotation of players that featured less heralded recruits than what Gonzaga has had on its roster the last few years.

What Gonzaga needs to do is make a final 4 or two. Once that happens, the Zags will have the key that can unlock the door to the Seattle/Tacoma kids, and this staff, with its stability and aggressive nature on the recruiting trail, will take full advantage. That and continuing to put players into the NBA. For as much anxiety as this Austin Daye thing has generated on this board, he is going to get drafted and make a NBA team whenever he puts his name in. That matters to 5 star players - it helps sell your program. If a college team puts players in the NBA, and can make final 4's, the arguments that are currently used against Gonzaga on the recruiting trail - the WCC, the school's location, etc. - become far less compelling. In fact, I have always argued that more than a few top 30 kids would much rather go to a place like Gonzaga than some big university with 40,000 students so long as the Zags can compete at the highest levels. Trust me, if Gonzaga makes a couple of final 4's, guys like Abdul Gaddy and Josh Smith will have them very high on their list.

UberZagFan
04-24-2009, 10:03 AM
How many stars were Dickau, Morrison, Turiaf and Batista?

I forget.

Remind Uber again

How many Final Fours did Dickau, Morrison, Turiaf and Batista make it to?

Uber forgets.

UberZagFan
04-24-2009, 10:04 AM
Would like to get Gary Bell.

Agreed.

bartruff1
04-24-2009, 10:08 AM
Get a 5 star instate recruit . If you cannot do it then settle for less and accept the fact you wont win a ncaa national championship. Buy a lottery ticket, the odds are better....

lothar98zag
04-24-2009, 10:22 AM
Buy a lottery ticket, the odds are better....
So what would you say the odds are of GU ever winning the national championship?

229SintoZag
04-24-2009, 10:55 AM
Remind Uber again

How many Final Fours did Dickau, Morrison, Turiaf and Batista make it to?

Uber forgets.

Remind me

How many 5 star players were on George Mason's Final Four team?

I forget.

bartruff1
04-24-2009, 10:56 AM
So what would you say the odds are of GU ever winning the national championship? and they would greatly decrease (or would it be increase... as you reached the tourney and advanced..) but I would guess that thay are lottery like at the start of the season.. I would be just amazed to win either one...I suspect you get my point...hyperbole yes....but I don't buy lottery tickets nor do I ever expect Gonzaga to win a National Championship in Men's Basketball..

MDABE80
04-24-2009, 11:01 AM
MDABE,

The last two title winners were good TEAMS w 5 star kids. There are a lot of team players that have 5 star ability, they just don't always draw the attention that the others do. Almost seems like some here have an inherent beef with 5 star kids, is that because gu doesn't get these guys or some other reason?

Hextall, great post, couldn't agree more. Facts of life...


As I said, UNC, KU, Duke....those teams do well with tons of 5 star kids ( a whole teamfull sometimes) but they are the rare programs. My point was that if a team get a 5 star usually that kid is the star....and he's on his way to the NBA. GU has always played team ball. It's the slant at GU.

I like 5 star kids.nothing against them. If it interrupts the "team" concept we've had with 3 star kids who overachieve, it might be difficult to work through the "star" concept. That's all it was.

Can't get to FF without a 5 star or two and 5 stars won't come unless they see GU in a FF. Circuitous facts? Tough problem too. 3's and 4's will have to do for now. We can win tons with those kids if they have heart. I still believe we can get a FF with those kids. "Making do" is our stock.

75Zag
04-24-2009, 11:37 AM
I agree with the above posts that most of the elite kids want to attend elite schools, and although GU is definitely a top 20 program, they are not in the elite zone of UNC, Duke, Kansas, UCLA, etc.

However, if GU were willing to hire AAU coaches plus various friends and family of certain elite recruits as "special consultants" to the BB program - all on a legitimate basis of course - I suspect GU could land a few 5 star recruits without waiting to get to a Final Four or whatever. Fortunately - from my perspective anyway - GU's administration and coaching staff don't seem to be willing to play those games. Might be those damn mandatory ethics classes required to graduate from GU.

It is frustrating to see in-state kids passing up GU, and also frustrating to see some great out-of-state kids choosing inferior programs - Dunigan to U of Oregon for God's sake? What's up with that? I would not send my worst hunting dog to U of Oregon for obedience training, let alone send a kid there to go to college. But as they say, money (or Nike money) talks.

Go Bulldogs.

thebigsmoove
04-24-2009, 01:12 PM
Gonzaga is not a 5 Star school for basketball. Not yet...Austin Daye is the only 5 Star recruit we have ever gotten. Now that doesnt mean that we cant take 2,3, and 4 star recruits and turn them into top notch players (JP Batista, Adam Morrison, Blake Stepp, Dan Dickau, and John Stockton come to mind)

When all is said and done, without more talent Gonzaga will always be relegated to the Sweet 16 or Elite 8...which honestly for a "Mid Major" is not too shabby. We need to overachieve again and reach the final four to get any kind of national attention and work our way into the bigger recruits minds. Otherwise we are just playing second fiddle...

Hextall7388
04-24-2009, 01:26 PM
Yes ABE, GU has "never been heavily invested in the 5 star market" and has "relied heavily on team being the method of success". However, is GU's approach in this regard by choice or out of necessity? I have a hard time believing that Coach Few would not jump at the opportunity to bring in two or three 5 star recruits each year. If GU could bring in 5 star recruits, it would. Few and the staff are doing the best they can in the recruiting wars with the tools at their disposal. Doing a fine job I might add.

As for employing certain individuals as "special consultants", I'm sure it has to do with ethics (at least I'd like to think so), but I would not overlook the fact that the university cannot spend like the BCS schools.

I agree with CDC, you don't need a team loaded with 5 star recruits to make it to the FF, as history has shown. Cinderella runs do happen...as we all fondly remember. However, to become a real player in the 5 star sweepstakes year in and year out, you need to be a FF contender. Do 5 star recruits want to hear.....Hey Mr. 5 Star Recruit, if our team gets a favorable draw in the tournament, and if the planets align just right, we may have a shot at the FF just like Utah, George Mason, Marquette, Stanford and UMass have done over the past 20 years? Correct me if I'm wrong, but have any of these teams even had a sniff at a return to the FF since their one appearance?

As I see it, Few has the perfect formula for a unique hybrd mid-major/major program like Gonzaga. Bring in the 3 and 4 star recruits that will play 4 years for the program, sprinkle in a 5 star if you can, and build for a FF team every 3-4 years. We were close to having the right mix in 2006, and again in 2009. Personally, I like what I see for 2012:

Seniors: Sacre, Kong, Meech
Juniors: Arop, Harris, Olynek, Dower, Gibbs, Poling

Provided everyone lives up to expectations, we should have a very deep, skilled and experienced team. If we could land another 5 star recruit (Josh Smith), and sprinkle in a talented freshman or sophmore....seems like a good recipe for a FF contender. In the "in-between years", we continue to be a competitive top 25 team, play a great schedule that will give these guys the experience they will need to avoid being overwhelmed by the spotlight of the the tournament.

MDABE80
04-24-2009, 02:34 PM
HExstall writes:
"However, is GU's approach in this regard by choice or out of necessity? I have a hard time believing that Coach Few would not jump at the opportunity to bring in two or three 5 star recruits each year. If GU could bring in 5 star recruits, it would. Few and the staff are doing the best they can in the recruiting wars with the tools at their disposal. Doing a fine job I might add. "

Abe responds: It doesn't matter. We rarely get one. It is what it is. We're doing fine with the 3 star and a rare 4 star. Ask Romar..he'll testify...ask NCAA.....we get in and we've done well 5 of the last 11 years as swt 16 or better. Ask UCLA......ask nearly anyone who doesnt hold a grudge.

We need a E 8 or FF showing a few times. Till then though,.......300/336 D 1 schools should be envious. My point about team and 5 star kids is listed above. Would we like a few here? SUre........butFewand staff know what GU's looking ofr. 3 star kids who fit well and value team.....I guess we're stuck with em;) <sigh>....GU wouldn't be GU without those kids...