PDA

View Full Version : Admission standards



doctorzag
04-15-2009, 11:58 AM
Are the admission standards at GU lower for ballplayers than the rest of the students or do basketball players have to meet the same standard?

krozman
04-15-2009, 12:10 PM
Pretty sure if Mark Few landed a top 10 recruit, the ability to pass your classes outweighs what SAT score you got. I'm not delusional enough to think that fairness is actually beneficial to the University

MDABE80
04-15-2009, 12:12 PM
It varies. Most kids are right where the others are. I don't know of a case where standards were lowered based on a kid basketball prowess alone.

FlyZag
04-15-2009, 12:31 PM
I can 100% guaruntee you that the same standards do not apply to athletes that apply to the rest of the student body.

doudney2therescue
04-15-2009, 12:41 PM
pargo, if he couldnt dribble a basketball im pretty sure whatever admissions counselor would of gotten his application would of first laughed, then crinkled it up into a ball and did a drop step and slammed it into the nearest waste basket.

webspinnre
04-15-2009, 12:57 PM
Yeah, the academic standards are lower, but the thing is, academics aren't the only standards looked at. Every school considers "extracurriculars" not just GU. Obviously students need to be able to pass their GU classes, but being a talented athlete will make up some of the difference of not quite as high academics. I don't see the problem with this.

CDC84
04-15-2009, 01:20 PM
Just about every school at the D-1 level that offers athletic scholarships lowers its academic standards, at times, for student-athletes. It's a fact of life. This includes Stanford and several other distinguished universities. It should also be noted that universities lower their standards to admit certain individuals for all sorts of reasons besides athletics...it's nothing new under the sun. Granted, Stanford isn't taking in any kids who can't academically compete with their general student population. But if the kids can academically compete, they'll cut some slack. Not everyone who graduates from Stanford had a 3.95 GPA and 1520 SAT score coming out of high school.

hoopster777
04-15-2009, 02:42 PM
I think they have to reach an academic minimum in order to be admitted. But though they might make the academic minimum, if a normal student who is applying to a school does meet that academic minimum and is rejected, its because there are better students applying for the same spot on campus. Universities want to fill their student body with diversity and ambition. Student athletes make the school money so they have different standards, but still have to meet some standards.

lothar98zag
04-15-2009, 03:03 PM
Student athletes...still have to meet some standards.

The NCAA sets min academic standards (MAS) for athletes - GU follows those. IIRC the WCC has some MAS that are higher than the NCAA's - GU follows those as well (if they exist). GU may or may not set MAS above the NCAA's & WCC's MAS.

MDABE80
04-15-2009, 10:29 PM
Would somebody cite a case where standards were lowered at GU based SOLEY on basketball skills. Jeremy had multiple other factors involved.

J-Lo
04-16-2009, 07:24 AM
pargo, if he couldnt dribble a basketball im pretty sure whatever admissions counselor would of gotten his application would of first laughed, then crinkled it up into a ball and did a drop step and slammed it into the nearest waste basket.

Certainly the administration paid extra attention to Pargo because of his basketball abilities. But I vividly remember sitting in Arny's next to Tommy Lloyd and Pargo before he was at GU while they talked about his taking the ACT, making sure he studied hard and was able to get some threshold score that GU uses, etc.

I'm sure he wasn't the most academic of folks to come to GU, and his abilities helped him out. But he also had some of that intangible, and, as he proved during his time here, put forth the effort to become a good student. That should speak a lot to the things the coaching staff looks for, and the GU administration looks for, in a potential recruit.

kitzbuel
04-16-2009, 07:37 AM
Actually, I don't think any standards are lowered. These are the recommended guidelines for admission:

The following pattern of course work is recommended for admission to Gonzaga:

* 4 years of English
* 3 to 4 years of mathematics (including algebra I, geometry, algebra II/trigonometry)
*
3 years of history or social studies
*
2 to 3 years of the same foreign language; world language preferred, American Sign Language accepted
*
3 to 4 years of natural or physical laboratory science
*
4 to 5 academic courses senior year

Our office reviews each application thoroughly, and while we do not publish minimums, we do offer guidelines. If you have a GPA below 3.1, an SAT combined score for Verbal/Critical Reading and Math below 1070, or an ACT composite score below 23, we encourage an interview. Interviews may be done in person as part of a campus visit, or on the phone with an Admission Counselor.

http://www.gonzaga.edu/Admissions/Undergraduate+Admissions/Prospective-Students/Entering-Freshmen/Prerequisites.asp

I would have to be shown what specific guidelines here was not adhered to during and admissions process in order to believe the claim that standards are lowered.

eastsideballer
04-16-2009, 08:41 PM
Stanford does not lower its admissions standard on prospective athletes. In fact if an athlete wants to be considered for recruiting he or she must first apply and be accepted before the coaching staff can start that process. They are very adament about that process and as such they do limit the size of their recruiting pool.

LongIslandZagFan
04-16-2009, 09:02 PM
pargo, if he couldnt dribble a basketball im pretty sure whatever admissions counselor would of gotten his application would of first laughed, then crinkled it up into a ball and did a drop step and slammed it into the nearest waste basket.

Pargo also did his four years, is graduating, and has a more than acceptable GPA. Way to come on here and seem to make the impication that JP is not terribly intelligent. May not have been what you were shooting for, but I am sure some took it that way... I know I did.

If a kid is borderline, the staff sets expectations for that student. Those expectations MUST be met. If they are not... see you later, no matter HOW good you are. A few years back, there was a transfer student from Georgetown, who was a fairly good player. He was accepted but the staff set standards for him. He failed to meet those standards, he passed all of his classes but not to the level that the staff wanted... he never played of minute of hoops for the Zags. Lothar is right on the money... GU must follow the WCC's minimum acceptance guidlines which are much more stringent than the NCAAs.

gu03alum
04-16-2009, 09:35 PM
Many of the posters have no idea what they are talking about in this thread. If you do not know exactly the standards that are used to evaluate students please keep your opinion to your self.

The only thing that you know about Jeremy is that he is graduating in four years.

deathchina
04-16-2009, 09:38 PM
"Not everyone who graduates from Stanford had a 3.95 GPA and 1520 SAT score coming out of high school."

My college roomie was the class president (at a HUGE school), valedictorian, captain of the tennis team, lettered in other sports, all-state orchestra honors, had a gpa over 4.0 and an SAT score over 1500 and didn't get into Stanford. Never ceases to amaze me.

MedZag
04-16-2009, 09:42 PM
pargo, if he couldnt dribble a basketball im pretty sure whatever admissions counselor would of gotten his application would of first laughed, then crinkled it up into a ball and did a drop step and slammed it into the nearest waste basket.

Jeremy came from a neighborhood and a high school that 95% of the pampered "up to standard" GU students would find horrific. I state this as a peer, and a member, of many of those students. The gross majority of our student body couldn't hold a candle to the resolve Jeremy has. I know I can't. So what if Kristy was captain of the cheer squad and had an A+ in english or Kevin made state in choir and was in AP history... P dodged bullets, kept his nose clean, stayed above the gang banging a bunch of his buddies rolled with, left bottles of sweat on his high school gym floor, and graduated high school, but also graduated with SATs and ACTs adequate to get into GU, even though high school teachers in Inglewood aren't teaching for the SAT, they're just trying to help over half their students be able to ****ing read.

I will tell you this... talking to Jeremy, you can instantly tell he's got a quick mind. Anyone who has been victim of his wit can attest to that. P always had the mind. He just never had the tools. Jeremy didn't even know what a thesis sentence was when he got to GU. He never had formal grammar. But you know what? By the end of his sophomore year he was above a 3.0. And in that time I never, EVER saw him touch a drink. You know why? Promised it to his brother. Basketball was too important. School was too important. P would rather watch BET and eat hot wings and search youtube.

You know who wasn't above a 3.0? Kristy, because she was drinking 5 nights a week and failed her chem class because she always went out for "thirsty thursdays" with her friends and was too hung over for an 8am class. Kevin barely scraped by with a 2.5 because with his fake id he could buy all the booze he and his boys could ever want. These aren't real people, but they are composites of MANY, MANY students I knew while at GU. People who had gleaming 3.8 GPAs on their gonzaga applications and 1420 SAT scores.

So how dare you insinuate that by admitting a person like Jeremy to Gonzaga University, the coaches somehow did a disservice to it. So what if basketball was the vehicle to his college admission. When he got here, all he did was prove that he belonged. Over, and over, and over again. As long as the coaches continue their track record of bringing in upstanding young men who work hard and demonstrate they belong and, as was stated, "can compete academically," I have no problem with them giving an athlete with a sub-"standard" admission profile a chance.

I know Charlie Mae Pargo will agree in 24 days when she gets to watch her second son cross the stage and receive his degree. Why did they both get there? Basketball. Why did they both earn the honor of crossing that stage? Proving they belonged.

Nevtelen
04-16-2009, 10:51 PM
Jeremy came from a neighborhood and a high school that 95% of the pampered "up to standard" GU students would find horrific. I state this as a peer, and a member, of many of those students. The gross majority of our student body couldn't hold a candle to the resolve Jeremy has. I know I can't. So what if Kristy was captain of the cheer squad and had an A+ in english or Kevin made state in choir and was in AP history... P dodged bullets, kept his nose clean, stayed above the gang banging a bunch of his buddies rolled with, left bottles of sweat on his high school gym floor, and graduated high school, but also graduated with SATs and ACTs adequate to get into GU, even though high school teachers in Inglewood aren't teaching for the SAT, they're just trying to help over half their students be able to ****ing read.

I will tell you this... talking to Jeremy, you can instantly tell he's got a quick mind. Anyone who has been victim of his wit can attest to that. P always had the mind. He just never had the tools. Jeremy didn't even know what a thesis sentence was when he got to GU. He never had formal grammar. But you know what? By the end of his sophomore year he was above a 3.0. And in that time I never, EVER saw him touch a drink. You know why? Promised it to his brother. Basketball was too important. School was too important. P would rather watch BET and eat hot wings and search youtube.

You know who wasn't above a 3.0? Kristy, because she was drinking 5 nights a week and failed her chem class because she always went out for "thirsty thursdays" with her friends and was too hung over for an 8am class. Kevin barely scraped by with a 2.5 because with his fake id he could buy all the booze he and his boys could ever want. These aren't real people, but they are composites of MANY, MANY students I knew while at GU. People who had gleaming 3.8 GPAs on their gonzaga applications and 1420 SAT scores.

So how dare you insinuate that by admitting a person like Jeremy to Gonzaga University, the coaches somehow did a disservice to it. So what if basketball was the vehicle to his college admission. When he got here, all he did was prove that he belonged. Over, and over, and over again. As long as the coaches continue their track record of bringing in upstanding young men who work hard and demonstrate they belong and, as was stated, "can compete academically," I have no problem with them giving an athlete with a sub-"standard" admission profile a chance.

I know Charlie Mae Pargo will agree in 24 days when she gets to watch her second son cross the stage and receive his degree. Why did they both get there? Basketball. Why did they both earn the honor of crossing that stage? Proving they belonged.

:clap:

Sarenyon
04-17-2009, 06:07 AM
MedZag... Awsome post!!!

:agreed: :clap:

:000tens:

FlyZag
04-17-2009, 06:27 AM
IIRC the minimum standard set forth by the NCAA was an 800 combined score on the SAT. I'm sure that info is easily obtained on the web I'm too lazy to look... But I believe that's what it was when I was a student athlete.

TexasZagFan
04-17-2009, 06:58 AM
"Not everyone who graduates from Stanford had a 3.95 GPA and 1520 SAT score coming out of high school."

My college roomie was the class president (at a HUGE school), valedictorian, captain of the tennis team, lettered in other sports, all-state orchestra honors, had a gpa over 4.0 and an SAT score over 1500 and didn't get into Stanford. Never ceases to amaze me.

My first two weeks at GU were highly stressful: seemed like everyone I talked to was either the valedictorian or salutatorian of their graduating class.

When I'm discussing GU with friends and acquaintances, I always try to mention how hard our athletes work on their academics. The campus is so small, that seemingly everyone knows who's skipped a class or lab.

SteelCityZag
04-17-2009, 07:11 AM
Great post MedZag. Couldn't have said it better myself.

The Zags took a chance on Jeremy and it paid off for both. GU gets a great Zag who cuts it academically and Jeremy gets a degree to go along with a great basketball career. Congrats to both parties for doing things the right way.

I think we all realize that cases of abuse are frequent when it comes to lowering academic standards for athletes. It's simply not GU's policy to do so.

For an excellent book on the topic, check out The Last Amateurs by Joel Feinstein, which details the Patriot and Ivy Leagues' refusal to lower standards for athletes. Individual programs follow strict standards as well, but these two leagues are the only ones in Div.I who have league-wide mandates.

For everyone else, there is a separate chart when it comes to admitting athletes, each school having it's own variance of standards. They simply apply different standards when it comes to admitting athletes, but it's up to the school to determine how far these standards stray.

But let's be real here, athletes are by no means the only special interest group that receives special consideration when it comes to admissions.

Perhaps someone involved with admissions at GU or elsewhere could comment further?

CDC84
04-17-2009, 09:37 AM
It keeps going back to the idea of whether or not kids can academically compete at a university. As many people involved in higher education know, getting into an elite university is quite often much more difficult than actually graduating from it. When the staff took on Jeremy Pargo, they knew he had the personal character and work ethic to make it at Gonzaga. Not only is he going to graduate, but he was academically eligible throughout his career.

Regarding Feinstein's book.....it should be noted that at the time he wrote that book, the Patriot League, like the Ivy League, was comprised of schools that didn't offer athletic scholarships. However, many teams within the Patriot are now allowing athletic schoolies. This was pointed out frequently when Bucknell beat Kansas in the NCAA tournament a couple years back - at that time, at least half of Bucknell's team had full rides. I suspect by now that all 13 players on their team are getting full rides, and that not every one of them has a GPA/SAT that perfectly matches what the average student at Bucknell has. Once athletic scholarships get involved, things change. It's just a question of how much.

lothar98zag
04-17-2009, 12:57 PM
MedZag... Awsome post!!!

:agreed: :clap:

:000tens:
+1,000,000,000,000

CB4
04-17-2009, 02:39 PM
A school like Gonzaga is a great example on how to balance admissions and athletic talent. First and foremost I think we need and do take guys that have the total package: grades, character, and talent.

Although we have been successful recruiting these type of players we need to can't rely on them alone, we need to be realistic. I for one have no problem with players that may have had poor to average to below Gonzaga-like grades but are willing to put the work in and make it through college without any academic problems.

Obviously school comes a lot easier for some students than others so when it comes to athletes I see no problem with substituting "grades" with "hard, motivated work in school." But judging by the character guys we have in our program it seems that the type of student-athletes we recruit and sign have motivation in school as well as the basketball court.

JohnOGU
04-17-2009, 03:32 PM
Jeremy came from a neighborhood and a high school that 95% of the pampered "up to standard" GU students would find horrific. I state this as a peer, and a member, of many of those students. The gross majority of our student body couldn't hold a candle to the resolve Jeremy has. I know I can't. So what if Kristy was captain of the cheer squad and had an A+ in english or Kevin made state in choir and was in AP history... P dodged bullets, kept his nose clean, stayed above the gang banging a bunch of his buddies rolled with, left bottles of sweat on his high school gym floor, and graduated high school, but also graduated with SATs and ACTs adequate to get into GU, even though high school teachers in Inglewood aren't teaching for the SAT, they're just trying to help over half their students be able to ****ing read.

I will tell you this... talking to Jeremy, you can instantly tell he's got a quick mind. Anyone who has been victim of his wit can attest to that. P always had the mind. He just never had the tools. Jeremy didn't even know what a thesis sentence was when he got to GU. He never had formal grammar. But you know what? By the end of his sophomore year he was above a 3.0. And in that time I never, EVER saw him touch a drink. You know why? Promised it to his brother. Basketball was too important. School was too important. P would rather watch BET and eat hot wings and search youtube.

You know who wasn't above a 3.0? Kristy, because she was drinking 5 nights a week and failed her chem class because she always went out for "thirsty thursdays" with her friends and was too hung over for an 8am class. Kevin barely scraped by with a 2.5 because with his fake id he could buy all the booze he and his boys could ever want. These aren't real people, but they are composites of MANY, MANY students I knew while at GU. People who had gleaming 3.8 GPAs on their gonzaga applications and 1420 SAT scores.

So how dare you insinuate that by admitting a person like Jeremy to Gonzaga University, the coaches somehow did a disservice to it. So what if basketball was the vehicle to his college admission. When he got here, all he did was prove that he belonged. Over, and over, and over again. As long as the coaches continue their track record of bringing in upstanding young men who work hard and demonstrate they belong and, as was stated, "can compete academically," I have no problem with them giving an athlete with a sub-"standard" admission profile a chance.

I know Charlie Mae Pargo will agree in 24 days when she gets to watch her second son cross the stage and receive his degree. Why did they both get there? Basketball. Why did they both earn the honor of crossing that stage? Proving they belonged.

Incredible post. Well done.

bballbeachbum
04-18-2009, 03:40 PM
Jeremy came from a neighborhood and a high school that 95% of the pampered "up to standard" GU students would find horrific. I state this as a peer, and a member, of many of those students. The gross majority of our student body couldn't hold a candle to the resolve Jeremy has. I know I can't. So what if Kristy was captain of the cheer squad and had an A+ in english or Kevin made state in choir and was in AP history... P dodged bullets, kept his nose clean, stayed above the gang banging a bunch of his buddies rolled with, left bottles of sweat on his high school gym floor, and graduated high school, but also graduated with SATs and ACTs adequate to get into GU, even though high school teachers in Inglewood aren't teaching for the SAT, they're just trying to help over half their students be able to ****ing read.

I will tell you this... talking to Jeremy, you can instantly tell he's got a quick mind. Anyone who has been victim of his wit can attest to that. P always had the mind. He just never had the tools. Jeremy didn't even know what a thesis sentence was when he got to GU. He never had formal grammar. But you know what? By the end of his sophomore year he was above a 3.0. And in that time I never, EVER saw him touch a drink. You know why? Promised it to his brother. Basketball was too important. School was too important. P would rather watch BET and eat hot wings and search youtube.

You know who wasn't above a 3.0? Kristy, because she was drinking 5 nights a week and failed her chem class because she always went out for "thirsty thursdays" with her friends and was too hung over for an 8am class. Kevin barely scraped by with a 2.5 because with his fake id he could buy all the booze he and his boys could ever want. These aren't real people, but they are composites of MANY, MANY students I knew while at GU. People who had gleaming 3.8 GPAs on their gonzaga applications and 1420 SAT scores.

So how dare you insinuate that by admitting a person like Jeremy to Gonzaga University, the coaches somehow did a disservice to it. So what if basketball was the vehicle to his college admission. When he got here, all he did was prove that he belonged. Over, and over, and over again. As long as the coaches continue their track record of bringing in upstanding young men who work hard and demonstrate they belong and, as was stated, "can compete academically," I have no problem with them giving an athlete with a sub-"standard" admission profile a chance.

I know Charlie Mae Pargo will agree in 24 days when she gets to watch her second son cross the stage and receive his degree. Why did they both get there? Basketball. Why did they both earn the honor of crossing that stage? Proving they belonged.

Totally awesome. Thank you MedZag.

Zagpower
04-19-2009, 02:36 PM
Great post, Medzag and I agree with you 100% that JP should be given the chance in college. You made all of the points and I can only imagine the pride the Pargo family must feel right now.

There is a different comparison though (from Kristy and Kevin) and that is the student that comes from the same challenging background but has shown proficiencies in Math or Science but does not have the grades or test scores to meet the entrance requirements of a university.

My late Father was a Chemistry Professor (not at GU) and he was sure that the next great scientist or inventor could come from one of these students. Kids from poor schools without current equipment or texts or have received substandard instruction have little or no chance on standardized tests when it comes to Science.

He would have been all for JP getting into school. He was more concerned that the Universities did not not allow the academic departments the same type of leeway or give them them anywhere near the resources in admitting students from these backgrounds even though the same reasoning should apply. Again, this may have been unique to his school.

He also might have mentioned that his recruiting budget was fairly modest.:D

Now his situation was different than GU's. His University did not have a huge cash generating team like GU basketball and the players were not going to go on and play professionally so the economics were certainly different.

Anyhoo, just wanted to throw that out there. Totally agree on Jeremy.

CB4
04-19-2009, 03:25 PM
The unfortunate thing about the way admissions go is that many bright, intelligent students from challenging backgrounds either do not have the grades or financial means to attend a top school. Gonzaga has made great strides in this department with their great financial aid assistance and scholarship funds.

That being said, the mentality of academia takes pride in having low admission rates and high GPA/SAT scores for incoming freshmen, evident in the yearly USNWR rankings. I'm all for hard work and taking the best students that will contribute to the University as a whole, but sometimes the best most "well rounded" students do not have the greatest academic success.

75Zag
04-19-2009, 03:57 PM
Not much interested in this topic because it often is a Trojan horse for racism and other bad things, but would like to challenge the statement above that Stanford lowers admission standards for athletes. I am told - by more than a few folks who come from Stanford and assorted Ivy League places, that Stanford in particular does not fudge on admission standards for D-1 BB players. Here are some statistics I just found on the net, re: men's BB players admitted to the respective institutions.

Duke average GPA: 3.13
Stanford average GPA: 3.46

Duke average SAT: 968
Stanford average SAT: 1123

http://blogs.mercurynews.com/collegesports/2008/11/05/stanford-vs-duke-basketball-the-difference-in-admissions-standards/

The point of the article was that Duke has much more flexibility in admitting elite kids, because they do fudge whereas Stanford does not. And of course, if it's on the Internet it is true.

I could not have gained admission to either place, so does not matter to me. Just glad I got into GU before they became selective and trendy.

Go Bulldogs.

deathchina
04-19-2009, 06:45 PM
"Stanford average SAT: 1123"

Uhh..The problem with that is that the AVERAGE kid at stanford probably got at least a 1500 or so (based on the old scale for the SAT). Anything below a 1400 and you probably have NO chance of getting in. So clearly they ARE cutting slack to athletes.

ZagNut08
04-19-2009, 07:11 PM
Avg Stanford GPA for 2010 class is 4.3