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View Full Version : Enough with the flying elbows and WWF tactics



CDC84
03-20-2009, 08:39 AM
It seems as though every year college basketball is plagued by some sort of nemesis that threatens to undermine the basic tenets of the game. This season we have seen a rapid increase in the amount of vicious, flagrant fouls coming from players throughout the country....especially the use of elbows to ward off defenders or to make some sort of statement of frustration. Numerous ejections have taken place.

Last evening we got to see a Morgan State big man throw Blake Griffin over his shoulder and slam him on to the floor as if basketball were a WWF event. Blake already suffered a concussion a couple of weeks ago due to excessive physical contact. He's also been suffering from lower back pain. One can only imagine how he feels this morning. The incident was so ugly that I almost expected a ref to get on his knees and give a 10 count. Heck, they might as well have erected a steel cage around the court.

Then we have a Clemson guard issue an "elbow of frustration" that got him tossed from the game. Oglesby's ejection ended up severely hurting his team's chances of victory. I hope he feels it.

Sadly, I wouldn't be surprised if we see more of this as the postseason unfolds. The NCAA tournament is not likely to curb what has hurt the game throughout the regular season.

Such acts of behavior do not constitute "physical play." They represent a basic disrespect for the game itself and what it stands for. The governing bodies of college basketball need to address this issue during the offseason. Tossing players is not enough...when malicious intent has been determined, there needs to be multi-game suspensions.

Rant over.

gamagin
03-20-2009, 08:44 AM
but I think it should be empasized now. before each game. from now on. spell out what will not be tolerated one time and what will constitute immediate ejection. take about 30 seconds just before tipoff.

I'm sure the coaches are warning, but with the level of intensity and the frustration and anxiety of (mostly) inferior players trying to win like the hansen twins in Slapshot (which is to say, dirty), well, it IS likely to continue without sufficient warning.

CDC84
03-20-2009, 08:55 AM
Sadly, I think part of the problem is that ejections and warnings are not enough. I don't know how much eligibility that Morgan State player has, but he should be suspended for at least 10 games next season. If he continues the same nonsense, he should be declared ineligible.

Obviously, there are going to be flagrant fouls that don't involve malicious intent, but video evidence usually tends to clear up any confusion that exists.

BTW - in case you missed it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDOZ4weUxXg

75Zag
03-20-2009, 09:15 AM
There was an article somewhere this morning (can't find it now) that the two brothers who play for Akron grew up playing for their father's "prison league team" or words to that effect. I can only assume the father must be a correction's officer and his kids played in some sort of amateur league, but after watching the brothers hack GU last night I was beginning to wonder if perhaps they were coached by some of the "insiders" at the prison.

Brute force in college basketball should not be tolerated. Save it for the NBA.

Go Bulldogs!

tobizag
03-20-2009, 09:16 AM
cdc - we were talking about this last night at our viewing party when the highlight of griffin came on. we discussed how much cheap crap has been directed at griffin this year and how the ncaa needs to protect it's players...from the last guy on the bench at chattanooga to the player of the year. we also mentioned that multiple game suspensions need to become the standard punishment, at the minimum.

quite frankly, you hit the nail on the head that these types of actions show a clear disrespect for the game. imo, kick the kid off the team for the next season, and give the other team 4 free throws and possession.

GU69
03-20-2009, 09:17 AM
I just watched the youtube clip.

You're right, CDC. Ejection from the game is not enough of a penalty.

meatwad_zip
03-20-2009, 09:43 AM
There was an article somewhere this morning (can't find it now) that the two brothers who play for Akron grew up playing for their father's "prison league team" or words to that effect. I can only assume the father must be a correction's officer and his kids played in some sort of amateur league, but after watching the brothers hack GU last night I was beginning to wonder if perhaps they were coached by some of the "insiders" at the prison.

Brute force in college basketball should not be tolerated. Save it for the NBA.

Go Bulldogs!

Come on, man. There is a big difference between the monstrosities that are being discussed here and what the McKnights were doing last night. There was nothing flagrant or never any intent to injure. You sound a bit silly when you compare them to what the chach did to Griffen.

johnwzag
03-20-2009, 10:08 AM
Come on, man. There is a big difference between the monstrosities that are being discussed here and what the McKnights were doing last night. There was nothing flagrant or never any intent to injure. You sound a bit silly when you compare them to what the chach did to Griffen.


Meatwad -- I did not see him comparing the two. I did see a lot a garbage from those brothers which I felt was overboard and I knew it was coming based upon how Akron plays. It does not have to be a flagarant foul in order to cause injury in a basketball game.

I read the article too. They played the prisoners often and the refs were priisoners too. They were bragging about how there was no such thing as a foul and you got right back up after being thrown down.

Good thing we were so hot from the free throw line.

Pargo the Destroyer
03-20-2009, 10:08 AM
I agree with the above, I didnt see anything any worse than what Memphis or Tennessee did to our guys, Remember when Micah got popped in the mouth , or when the same happened to Matt? That was way worse than anything I saw last night. Akron's kids played hard.

CDC84
03-20-2009, 10:15 AM
What's sad about the Blake Griffin situation is that he's the last guy on earth that deserves that treatment. He's not a dirty player or someone who tries to bully people on the court. He's just better than everyone else. He's also a guy who conducts himself with class on and off the floor.

MedZag
03-20-2009, 10:18 AM
What's sad about the Blake Griffin situation is that he's the last guy on earth that deserves that treatment. He's not a dirty player or someone who tries to bully people on the court. He's just better than everyone else. He's also a guy who conducts himself with class on and off the floor.

Agreed. A lot of Blake Griffin hate out there, which I think is somewhat of a backlash based on the media's infatuation with him. Which is a shame, thats nothing he can control.

Nevtelen
03-20-2009, 10:20 AM
I agree with the above, I didnt see anything any worse than what Memphis or Tennessee did to our guys, Remember when Micah got popped in the mouth , or when the same happened to Matt? That was way worse than anything I saw last night. Akron's kids played hard.

Agreed - nothing wrong with anything the Akron players did yesterday. All just hard, tough play.

Once and Future Zag
03-20-2009, 11:14 AM
Agreed - nothing wrong with anything the Akron players did yesterday. All just hard, tough play.

Agreed x2 - I had no problems with their play.

gamagin
03-20-2009, 11:24 AM
well coached. They came in with 3 freshmen, one soph and one senior starting five. They held us at bay for 3/4ths of the game with limited tools and talent.

However, they played hard, they played every minute and it was clear they had two rules: no one gets a free layup (without a challenge or a hard foul) and no one gets to do what he wants to do because he is going to get swarmed and swatted and poked and prodded.

They never stopped and therefore they drew alot of fouls. None of them I saw beyond normal aggressive, hard-nosed b asketball.

Given the tools they brought to this game, and the limited scope of their ability to execute, I thought they were fully capable of beating us. Until we woke up and forced our game on them.

Akron can be proud and I am sure they are. they did everything they could and that included the possibility of pulling off a win. I hope we have learned the lesson that if you keep playing at 100% until the end, you will always have a chance to win.

Go TEAM Zags !

bballbeachbum
03-20-2009, 11:24 AM
Akron played tough, we met that challenge with our own toughness, including being tough at the free throw line, a key execution when faced with such tactics.

re. CDC's rant, rant on I say! and don't just punish the player; punish the team for these antics and they'll be policed from within and will stop, imo.

this stuff's ridiculous, and really, cowardly, just cheap shots.

Who respects that?

MDABE80
03-20-2009, 11:40 AM
75 was not comparing the two...unless it's simply the loss of the finesse game. Griffin's foul is beyond anything seen so far this year. It's the permissive, win at all costs meantality in action. The McKnight kids were tough but nothing like Griffin's event. Still the theme applies.

Seems like things have "graduated" in terms of physical play. It must be stopped with emphasis! Boot em, stop the game and boot em. Lose games for the offenders. Make it a pointed event. Each school must enforce this. If not, someone will get hurt. Griffin's physical well being could havebeen effected........and it still might be.

I see that UW's little guard Overton has been doing the same type of thing. Booted from the Arizona game and then yesterday a similar event. Confounding this is that there's alway disbelief from the offender. Who me???..Lil old me? I will never forget Dentmon upending Derek Raivio (when Derek was up in the air in the key) so he came down so hard on his back, Derek could barely walk for a full month. Even then, he was impaired the res t of that season.

This has got to be stopped or someone will be severely injured. This isn't a rant, it's just the way it is. It sullies the game.

john montana
03-20-2009, 03:06 PM
Overton was horrible yesterday. I was disgusted with his play.

HillBillyZag
03-20-2009, 03:40 PM
I'll just second the motion that Akron did nothing at all to warrant any retaliation other than what the Zags gave, them, playing as hard as they did..at least for most of the second half. The Zips asked "no quarter" and they gave none. They just worked their buns off for forty minutes. And I for one was proud of the Zags for taking their best shot and winning.

Zagnailler
03-20-2009, 06:44 PM
There is no place for such cheap shots as those mentioned above in the game. I am of the opinion the Corey Butlers cheap shot on Pargo in the Georgia game last year, is in some part responsible for difficulties(back and leg) he has had to work through since. These crimes have lasting impacts, and the punishments should recognize this.

kitzbuel
03-20-2009, 07:20 PM
This one got Dejaun Blair nothing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTnDkOAuwYs

BSUBronco74
03-20-2009, 10:34 PM
So many supposed experts, with really nothing to say. This thread is silly. It's just a basketball game. Things happen. Don't fret too much about it. The winners will win, the losers will lose. Get over yaselves.

fedwayzag
03-20-2009, 10:41 PM
So many supposed experts, with really nothing to say. This thread is silly. It's just a basketball game. Things happen. Don't fret too much about it. The winners will win, the losers will lose. Get over yaselves.

BSU, thats exactly the point. It is basketball, not football and no one wants anyone to get seriously hurt. I stopped watching pro basketball when the bruise brothers were playing in detroit. To me it no longer was who had the most skills, but who is the biggest bully. In my opinion it ruins a fantastic game.

NJZag
03-20-2009, 11:07 PM
This one got Dejaun Blair nothing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTnDkOAuwYs

Ah, Kitz ... ya know the BE likes to brag about its physical style of play. :lmao:

They went on to share Co-POY in the league. The refs seem to have decided to let a very physical game play out, and even Calhoun was remarking he hadn't seen a game allowed to get that physical since the late 1990's. Officials who either didn't see or didn't call: Ed Hightower, Michael Kitts, Tony Greene.

Greene officiated at the Zags' NCAA tourney game against Texas Tech years ago. Hightower is reffing in Boise right now while the other two pulled duties East of Mississippi for the NCAA's.

In the Morgan State game, Griffin was ice about how he handled it. This footage shows how he got back up.

http://slamonline.com/online/media/slam-tv/2009/03/video-ameer-ali-takes-down-blake-griffin/


Keeping stats on the REFS who call the most fouls and ejections:
Fouls
http://statsheet.com/mcb/referees/stats/most_fouls
Ejections
http://statsheet.com/mcb/referees/stats?id=most_ejections

Referees assigned to Portland subregional:
Mark Reischling, Mike Eades, Steve Skiles
David Libbey, Tim Clougherty, Tom O'Neill
Mike Littlewood, Mike Nance, Mike Scyphers
Kevin Brill, Mike Stuart, Rick Batsell

kitzbuel
03-21-2009, 06:36 AM
So many supposed experts, with really nothing to say. This thread is silly. It's just a basketball game. Things happen. Don't fret too much about it. The winners will win, the losers will lose. Get over yaselves.

Right, and this is just hockey, huh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21_sV_YDFKY

NJZag
03-21-2009, 08:16 AM
So many supposed experts, with really nothing to say. This thread is silly. It's just a basketball game. Things happen. Don't fret too much about it. The winners will win, the losers will lose. Get over yaselves.


BSU, thats exactly the point. It is basketball, not football and no one wants anyone to get seriously hurt. I stopped watching pro basketball when the bruise brothers were playing in detroit. To me it no longer was who had the most skills, but who is the biggest bully. In my opinion it ruins a fantastic game.


Right, and this is just hockey, huh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21_sV_YDFKY


The winners will win, the losers will lose ... and let's not have players end up with permanent injuries or deaths due to intentional conduct. And let's not call intentional conduct mere "accidents" either. Unlike Ben "no rules in the arena" Hur, sports have rules and refs to keep it a GAME, not a "take no prisoners" war zone.

What happened in that hockey game was clearly intentional, and it has a back story.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKeXMugPZVA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWK82-FZAMs&feature=related

(Comparison to the earlier "worst" incident from 2000 hockey season: McSorley got a 23-game suspension; and he faced criminal charges.)

What happened at the Pitt-UConn game should have been called and it wasn't (and Calhoun's comments about a kind of physicality not seen since the 1990's by his team might be viewed as "coachspeak" for what he viewed as a "mauling" that went unofficiated). When egregious conduct goes unofficiated, does it extend an open invitation to retaliation (http://www.newstimes.com/ci_11863180)? Thabeet went after Blair in their next game; Bertuzzi went after Moore because Moore went after Markus Näslund.

Ameer Ali's ejection comes after a year in which there were 56 ejections by NCAA officials during regular season and league tourneys. As a freshman who saw action in 22 games averaging 11 minutes, an ejection and multi-game suspension might not carry the same impact as it would for a starter planning to return to college the following season. (A multi-game suspension for the duration of the NCAA tournament, assuming a team manages to pull off a win, might carry some bite.) In the 2007-08 season, there were 74 player ejections. And there were 46 ejections the year before that. If one adds up all kinds of player penalty calls (fouls, disqualifications, technicals and ejections) one finds there's been a declining trend for the past 4-5 years.

It raises the question of whether refs are swallowing their whistles.

ZagNut08
03-21-2009, 09:43 AM
So many supposed experts, with really nothing to say. This thread is silly. It's just a basketball game. Things happen. Don't fret too much about it. The winners will win, the losers will lose. Get over yaselves.

It's not just the games on TV, try going to the gyms and parks, its how people play these days, and it takes a lot of the fun out of the game.

Over the summer at a 24 fitness my brother was jumped by some guy and his brother because my brother blocked his shot, landed him a trip to the hospital.

While there are a lot of classy players who show great sportsmanship, there are a lot that don't, and they make the game less fun to watch/play

Zagpower
03-21-2009, 09:58 AM
I'm not so sure cheap fouls are any more prevalent today.

It might just be that with Youtube and ESPN that we see every act of it over and over and over in any Pro, College, and High School games whereas 10 or 20 years ago, you never would have even heard of the act happening unless it happened to your local team or on the game of the week.

Pro Basketball has far fewer cheap shots than anytime I can remember. The rough play of the old Pistons and Knicks teams that were so hard to watch are no more. It wasn't that long ago, that most teams had Enforcers and they were openly referred to as such even some times on college teams. I almost never see that position anymore at any level.

I certainly did not notice any unusually rough play in the Zags games this year.

CDC84
03-21-2009, 01:03 PM
I'm not so sure cheap fouls are any more prevalent today.

This thread has gone from a discussion about the proliferation of violent fouls with malicious intent to a discussion about cheap fouls, physical play, etc. Akron and how they defended GU isn't what the issue is. Cheaps fouls and physical play have always existed in the game, and while I have mixed feelings about those things, those things in no way compare to what took place Thursday night. And what took place Thursday night took place too much within college basketball this season....especially during the conference wars of February.

Zagpower
03-21-2009, 01:14 PM
Huh?

You quoted me and then went on about Akron, how the defend Gu etc.

I never mentioned any of that.

I don't think it is any more prevalent this year nor do I think it "threatens to undermine the basic tenets of the game." Sounds way to dramatic to me.

It's just my opinion that rough play and those type of fouls are no more common today than in the past. If you have stats to refute that, I'm always willing to update my opinion.