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Pleasant Peninsula
03-03-2009, 08:54 PM
Is Matt Bouldin.

You know it.

I know it.

He knows it.

CDC84
03-03-2009, 09:21 PM
I can you tell you this....he's the most difficult matchup within the WCC. If Bouldin wanted to be selfish, he could probably score 25-30 points a night within the WCC. It's not because he's the most talented player or whatever. It's because the league just doesn't have anyone, personnel wise, that matches up with him at his position.

Angelo Roncalli
03-03-2009, 09:34 PM
And the best coach in the West Coast Conference is Mark Few. His team was perfect in conference play...no other coach's team came close.

ZagLawGrad
03-03-2009, 09:39 PM
Yes to all of the above

Zagatron
03-03-2009, 10:34 PM
MB definitely is the best player in the conference. Im pretty sure Im not the only one upset about this either. From what I have heard the coaches and the players on the GU staff and team thought MB was a lock for the award. For a team to go 14-0 in conference and not get an individual award is unbelievable.

Ezag
03-03-2009, 10:41 PM
I totally agree. If Bryant was so good, how come he got owned by Josh not once but twice and he was never a factor in those games, so how can WCC POY he be. Bryant didn't really put them in a position to win those games, yet take out Bouldin's contribution in our wins and we would most definitely not be 14-0.

14-0 has really rare in any conference and the coach that achieves this has to automatically be COY.

GoZags
03-03-2009, 10:42 PM
No team came with-in 4 games of Gonzaga in a 14 game league race.

Yet the third place team had as many all League performers as the first place team. And the second place team had one more all League performer than the first place (undefeated) team.

And the team that went 14-0 was shut out of every league honor/award.

This did not go unnoticed.

FuManShoes
03-04-2009, 06:03 AM
OK, so what's the recourse for these snubs? Realistically all the team can do is pin the press clippings in the locker room and use the slights as motivation. It's a time honored tradition. If anything, these awards, or the lack thereof, could be a better help to the Zags now than had their egos been stoked and their accomplishments rightfully recognized. In the long run, at the administrative level, I wonder if there will be fallout. For all GU's success has brought to the WCC - in dollars and exposure - the Zags seem to get dicked around a lot. I'm not saying GU should just be bestowed accolades, but fair's fair and when you go 14-0 and have players putting up numbers that warrant honors and they don;t even get so much as a split COY or POY, it makes you wonder if some hell should be paid. Maybe Mussleman, Bilas & Katz should be on the phone to league offices and these schools coaches asking them, "What the hell is wrong with you?"

23dpg
03-04-2009, 06:28 AM
Is Matt Bouldin.

You know it.

I know it.

He knows it.

I love Bouldin's game. He would have been my 1a choice for POY. I had Josh slightly ahead of him overall.

But the best player in the league is probably Patty Mills. Just my honest opinion.

gamagin
03-04-2009, 06:36 AM
pi$$ them off, nothing will.

It's time to put all this talent together, 40 minutes at a time, and play basketball. Frankly, the timing couldn't be better.

Go Zags !

malmer7
03-04-2009, 07:11 AM
and i agree with our "homers" from last night saying we got snubbed out of jealousy if you will... i can live with it though - the rest of the league gets no hype, this gives them a little something (i guess)

tobizag
03-04-2009, 07:56 AM
whoever decides the winners of these awards is clearly a moron.

it seems people in our conference have grown tired of us.

when bryant played against the best team in the league, and against two of the contenders for POY, he did not put up the same numbers. it seems to me that if the POY race comes down to a few guys, their performance when going head to head should actually mean something. this reminds me of the college football fiasco with texas/oklahoma. don't the results on the court/field of play matter?

GoZags
03-04-2009, 08:08 AM
The league has reacted to Gonzaga's basketball success in a variety of ways. This year's ALL WCC team/honors is simply the next "phase".

For awhile -- it was a "whack-a-coach". Good coaches like Brad Holland, Dick Davey and Rodney Tention are replaced because they didn't match the Zags. That was a "phase".

Now this.

It'd be very difficult to find more than two or three other players in the league that could start for Gonzaga. Very difficult.

Again, Gonzaga won the league by 4 games. 14-0 (with the 2nd place team 10-4).

Yet only two Zags make All League. And no Zags win an award.

It will be fun to watch the game Sunday. And it will be fun to watch the game Monday.

CanadZag
03-04-2009, 08:13 AM
I don't have a problem with the Zags getting snubbed in theory...

Coach of the Year usually goes to the most improved/ unexpected team- And Reveno did a super job with a young team in Portland. It seems to be same old- year in and out for Few.

John Bryant was a double-double machine for his squad and had an incredible comeback story after the stabbing in the summer. The Zags were extremely balanced.

But...

Portland was 3-4 down the stretch and finished 5 games back of the Zags. Anytime you go 14-0 and 4 games clear of 2nd place you need to be rewarded. (If they were 11-3... different story)

Bryant played on a sub- .500 team and was clearly overmatched (clearly is my own sentiment) in the two games against the Zags.

The WCC doesn't need to "reward" the Zags with the individual awards for what they do for the conference in terms of recognition and money they bring in, but they should at least call it like it is.

Few and Bouldin got snubbed. Period.

former1dog
03-04-2009, 08:16 AM
Although individual recognition is great, basketball is a team game and the true reward for a team is championships.

This team has already won two championships this season. I'm confident they are going to win a third in Vegas and as a true fan I'm very hopeful about one in Detroit!

Go Zags!

Edited to add: I can't finish this post, though, with out pouring gas on the fire. :D

On a team that is statistically the top defensive team in all of the NCAA, we should have at least had the defensive player of the year award!!

Pleasant Peninsula
03-04-2009, 08:33 AM
On a team that is statistically the top defensive team in all of the NCAA, we should have at least had the defensive player of the year award!!

Hey, I like our defense this year, too. But under no metric is Gonzaga the top defensive team in the NCAA. Yes, they continue to lead the nation in 2 pt FG % defense, but that is just an individual component of the team's overall defense, not a reflection of the overall defensive quality. Pomeroy currently has Gonzaga as the 17th most efficient defense in the land (10th in offensive efficiency).

gonza
03-04-2009, 08:42 AM
Agreeing that it will never happen, what would be the cost to the WCC if Gonzaga pulled out, in terms of finance, publicity, reputation?

J-Mac Zag Forever
03-04-2009, 08:43 AM
Do ya think it might be noticed if GU makes it to the final
4 along with GU's conference record with no honors by the WCC. I would think someone would ? the voting! It's time the guys get MAD.

CDC84
03-04-2009, 09:03 AM
It was interesting to hear the FSN-NW studio analyst explain the first team and POY "snubs" as being due to Gonzaga's balance on offense.

former1dog
03-04-2009, 09:11 AM
Hey, I like our defense this year, too. But under no metric is Gonzaga the top defensive team in the NCAA. Yes, they continue to lead the nation in 2 pt FG % defense, but that is just an individual component of the team's overall defense, not a reflection of the overall defensive quality. Pomeroy currently has Gonzaga as the 17th most efficient defense in the land (10th in offensive efficiency).

Ok, we're really splitting hairs here. Would you agree that statistically Gonzaga is one of the top defensive teams in all the NCAA?

And, without any hesitation, based on that you should agree that Gonzaga is far and away the best defensive team in the WCC? Not even close, right?

That's my point.

Peace, Bro. :)

Coug LJ
03-04-2009, 09:12 AM
seriously we need to get off the bouldin train. Okay he is a decent player, but that is it. He does play somewhat unselfishly, but it is because he knows his limitations. Patti mills ... better; Grey... better; Daye... better, etc. mid-season Bouldin was one bad game away from the bench. And honestly, where is this guy in the clutch against real teams Uconn, memphis; etc. The best player in the catholic league is like measuring the tallest midget.

former1dog
03-04-2009, 09:14 AM
seriously we need to get off the bouldin train. Okay he is a decent player, but that is it. He does play somewhat unselfishly, but it is because he knows his limitations. Patti mills ... better; Grey... better; Daye... better, etc. mid-season Bouldin was one bad game away from the bench. And honestly, where is this guy in the clutch against real teams Uconn, memphis; etc. The best player in the catholic league is like measuring the tallest midget.

Wow, just Wow.

I have to say besides the fact that you don't know how to spell Gray's name, the rest of your post is unsupported completely by the facts, subjective or otherwise.

KSTATEZAG
03-04-2009, 09:16 AM
Wow, just Wow.

I have to say besides the fact that you don't know how to spell Gray's name, the rest of your post is unsupported completely by the facts, subjective or otherwise.

Or PAtti.
This guy is a fraud of a bball fan.
His opinion is about as valuable as the crap he spews.

HillBillyZag
03-04-2009, 09:29 AM
With all due respect, you need'nt worry about the Catholic league, your Cougs are NEVER going to be the big dog in hoops in this area! The P(poor)A(abused) C (Cougs) -10 is more like the big five and the five spear carriers.

KSTATEZAG
03-04-2009, 09:40 AM
nm

CDC84
03-04-2009, 10:19 AM
seriously we need to get off the bouldin train. Okay he is a decent player, but that is it. He does play somewhat unselfishly, but it is because he knows his limitations. Patti mills ... better; Grey... better; Daye... better, etc. mid-season Bouldin was one bad game away from the bench. And honestly, where is this guy in the clutch against real teams Uconn, memphis; etc. The best player in the catholic league is like measuring the tallest midget.

The last time I checked, the WCC POY award is based on league performance. It is not based on your play vs. a BCS team back in November.

FuManShoes
03-04-2009, 10:42 AM
The last time I checked, the WCC POY award is based on league performance. It is not based on your play vs. a BCS team back in November.

Yet another reason it's curious that Patty Mills made first team All-WCC when he played in only 5.5 WCC games and his numbers were on par with Pargo's in half those games.

Zagatron
03-04-2009, 10:43 AM
That fan is a joke. I didn't think Bouldin played poorly in November either. Foul trouble against UConn put him in a bad spot but the rest of the games he was as money as anyone else. I remember Franschilla calling him the most underrated player in college basketball down at the OS. I do believe he is the best player on the Zags and i thought his season proved it.

Coug LJ
03-04-2009, 10:54 AM
I seem to have touched a nerve. ...But, seriously, Bouldin can't carry PATTY Mills' jock. ...And, yes, I don't think he is the best player on the Zags.

As for Bouldin's performance in November being as good as everyone elses, that probably was the problem.

Finally, the Cougs have just beaten three ranked teams in a row - have the Zags even beaten ONE ranked team this season?!? ...And, please, don't count St. Mary's; when Patty Mills had the Gaels up by ten in Spokane when an injury took him out of the game.

gamagin
03-04-2009, 10:56 AM
seriously we need to get off the bouldin train. Okay he is a decent player, but that is it. He does play somewhat unselfishly, but it is because he knows his limitations. Patti mills ... better; Grey... better; Daye... better, etc. mid-season Bouldin was one bad game away from the bench. And honestly, where is this guy in the clutch against real teams Uconn, memphis; etc. The best player in the catholic league is like measuring the tallest midget.

I love a disinterested third party analysis. and as with others, I look forward to your newsletter.

cjm720
03-04-2009, 10:58 AM
How many did we win by in Pullman? Thought so....

To the original post, Bryant is deserving, but so are Josh and Bouldin. It could easily be argued that Pargo should not have won the award last year...

COY - I understand that improvement side of the argument, but shouldn't recruiting count too?

go zags

kyle dixon
03-04-2009, 11:00 AM
Tennessee was ranked both times we beat them. The first time we beat them they were a top 15 team.

Gonzaga is preparing for the WCC tournament followed by at trip to the NCAA tournament which is every NCAA team's goal every year to play in. According to the Seattle Times, AD Jim Sterk is looking at pamphlets for both the CBI and NIT. Aim high!!

Pleasant Peninsula
03-04-2009, 11:18 AM
As for Bouldin's performance in November being as good as everyone elses, that probably was the problem.

Yeah, Gonzaga really struggled in November...

Please.


Finally, the Cougs have just beaten three ranked teams in a row -

That should give them a lot of confidence heading into the NIT...

kitzbuel
03-04-2009, 11:31 AM
seriously we need to get off the bouldin train. Okay he is a decent player, but that is it. He does play somewhat unselfishly, but it is because he knows his limitations. Patti mills ... better; Grey... better; Daye... better, etc. mid-season Bouldin was one bad game away from the bench. And honestly, where is this guy in the clutch against real teams Uconn, memphis; etc. The best player in the catholic league is like measuring the tallest midget.


So how does that 22 point drubbing by the 'tallest midget' stack up there?

Coug LJ
03-04-2009, 11:36 AM
So, what I'm hearing is that the WCC is as good a league or better than the Pac-10?

As for your wins against Tennessee, they have been exposed for the fraud they are. Ditto for your wins.

Matt Bouldin is a nice player; probably will be playing in Europe in a year or two. IF he is the best player in your league, it says volumes.

StocktonIsMyHero
03-04-2009, 11:40 AM
Do people honestly believe Few didn't get COY or Bouldin/Heytvelt didn't get POY because of jealousy? Hasn't Gonzaga won pretty much every individual award over the past decade? When was the last time a Zag didn't win at least a share of POY or Few didn't win a share of COY? The 90s?

I really think this year was a bit of an aberration - a very deep, balanced Zag team with no individual star (I mean, people on here can't even agree if it should be Matt or Josh) and a team in Portland that has been so historically bad for so long that third place in conference seems like making the Final Four.

I think people need to chill out about this. Because really, what does it matter when the team went 14-0? Gonzaga has won so many of these awards over the years, I just don't know how anyone can feel like it's a conspiracy or anything like that. Just take it for what it was - an unusually balanced Zag team and an unusually good year for the Pilots.

trzag
03-04-2009, 11:40 AM
Matt Bouldin is a nice player; probably will be playing in Europe in a year or two. IF he is the best player in your league, it says volumes.

FYI,Washington State offered Matt much earlier then Gonzaga. He never even considered them.

FuManShoes
03-04-2009, 11:44 AM
Matt Bouldin is a nice player; probably will be playing in Europe in a year or two. IF he is the best player in your league, it says volumes.

Matt Harangody may well be the "best player" in the Big East, Tyler Hansborough may be the "best player" in the ACC, John Brockman may be the "best player" in the Pac-10 and Blake Griffin may well be the "best player" in the country and none of them may go on to be NBA All Stars, in fact, it's doubtful. Smart, versatile tweeners can dominate in college and not project to the next level while middling role guys on deep college teams can be studs in the pros. But you're a hoops expert, so you already knew that.

Pleasant Peninsula
03-04-2009, 11:49 AM
Blake Griffen will be an NBA stud.

Oh, and let's quit feeding the troll....

GoZags
03-04-2009, 11:52 AM
When was the last time .......... Few didn't win a share of COY? The 90s?



That would be season before last -- Dick Davey won COY (and Derek shared POY w/ Sean Dennisson).

That was the season that Santa Clara prematurely celebrated their WCC regular season championship. They were so busy patting themselves on the back, they got swept down in LA (by the 7th and 8th place teams) the last weekend of the season. They pretty much swept the awards (which were voted on -- by many -- before the last two games were played).

This year's COY also saw his team get swept the last weekend of the season. It's my opinion that the winning votes were cast prior to the Pilots getting swept.

UberZagFan
03-04-2009, 11:58 AM
I seem to have touched a nerve.

Wasn't this obvious to everyone from the first post? When a poster can't even get a name right and then proceeds to rip a player or the conference, Uber just quits paying attention. Uber's not sure what is worse: the flamer or those who engage him?

As for the OP, the player who played the best in WCC games this year overall was probably a toss up between MB, Bryant, and possibly JH. Obviously, votes for GU players could have been split with Bryant taking the award. Reminds Uber of when one steriod enhanced player lost the MVP to another beefed up player because local Seattle writers voted for Junior.

TheReasonableZag
03-04-2009, 11:59 AM
It'd be very difficult to find more than two or three other players in the league that could start for Gonzaga. Very difficult.



I think it would actually be pretty easy.

Mills
Bryant
Simpson
Samhan
Lowhorn

StocktonIsMyHero
03-04-2009, 12:03 PM
That would be season before last -- Dick Davey won COY (and Derek shared POY w/ Sean Dennisson).

Right you are - thought that was a co-COY year. But that was understandable enough: Davey was retiring, the Broncos surprised everyone by being as good as they were (they even won at K2), and that Zag team wasn't particularly strong. I would say there was a good case for Davey even given their slip-up at the end of the year.

But Few did win in 2000-01, 2001-02, 2002-03, 2003-04, 2004-05, 2005-06, and in 2007-08. I'm still not buying any kind of "jealousy" argument.

Coug LJ
03-04-2009, 12:12 PM
Part of the problem with the Zags are their fans are so busy patting each other on the back, they haven't noticed the team has been El Busto in March Madness for years.

I was talking to a Zag fan this morning and they remarked how the Zags had a "Great" season this year. ...Really?

As for the Cougs, we are a 2nd division Pac-10 team that is hoping for better things. That said, we have still beaten you guys two out of the last three years and you have won WCC fourteen years in a row.

GonzagaDynasty
03-04-2009, 12:23 PM
I seem to have touched a nerve. ...But, seriously, Bouldin can't carry PATTY Mills' jock. ...And, yes, I don't think he is the best player on the Zags.

As for Bouldin's performance in November being as good as everyone elses, that probably was the problem.

Finally, the Cougs have just beaten three ranked teams in a row - have the Zags even beaten ONE ranked team this season?!? ...And, please, don't count St. Mary's; when Patty Mills had the Gaels up by ten in Spokane when an injury took him out of the game.

Did you forget that we beat you by 22 points, and could have won by 40? I think we already proved who the best team is... Dont forget about your 13 losses. The Pac 10 is weak this year, anyone can beat anyone, as you guys have proved. Nice try though.

Bouldin is twice the player any WSU player is. Seriously, I know there isnt a lot of basketball smart people in Pullman, But seriously? Go home.

GonzagaDynasty
03-04-2009, 12:26 PM
Part of the problem with the Zags are their fans are so busy patting each other on the back, they haven't noticed the team has been El Busto in March Madness for years.

I was talking to a Zag fan this morning and they remarked how the Zags had a "Great" season this year. ...Really?

As for the Cougs, we are a 2nd division Pac-10 team that is hoping for better things. That said, we have still beaten you guys two out of the last three years and you have won WCC fourteen years in a row.

Lets go back a little farther than 3 years, dude. And BTW, Your program is pathetic.

billyberu
03-04-2009, 12:35 PM
If there's any doubt about CougLJ's true intent let his own words clear this up:



I thought I would break up the Zag circle jerk you have got going on here. It has to bore you guys after awhile with all the blind devotion and adoration. If nothing else, it gets the blood going.


Nothing more and nothing less than being a troll. Beyond spamming there is no lower creature on the internet.

Coug LJ
03-04-2009, 12:51 PM
Are you guys THAT afraid of opposing views? ...I haven't been on this board that often, but I would say many Zag fans would be perfectly content to tell each other how wonderful everything is in Spokane.

As for the Pac-10, it may be down this year, but I'd still rate it a hair better than the WCC. You may think me a troll, but I don't think you guys would go 14-0 in the Pac-10. Even in a "weak" year.

hoopster777
03-04-2009, 12:52 PM
theres no doubt in my mind that had Mills not been injured, he would have been player of the year. He came into the year with so much momentum from the Olympics, and really, he probably is the media darling of the WCC. Even when he was injured, it would be one of the top stories for college basketball on ESPN, when he is getting back to health. Zags dont have the one guy who the media has fallen in love with, which is probably a good thing for us since every other time we had a top guy (Dickau, Stepp, Turiaf, Morrison) who the media fell in love with, we somehow let everyone down. Maybe the pressure is too much? (very possible considering the reactions of these guys after we got an early bounce from the tournament).

Look at any NCAA champion of the past 10 years. They all had good balance, even though they had one guy who shined. In most cases, MULTIPLE players went on to play in the NBA. I honestly think with this team, Pargo, Daye, Gray, and maybe Heytvelt and Bouldin will get a career in the league. The fact that we dont have a top guy getting attention is good for our success in the tournament.

lothar98zag
03-04-2009, 12:56 PM
whoever decides the winners of these awards is clearly a moron.

it seems people in our conference have grown tired of us.

when bryant played against the best team in the league, and against two of the contenders for POY, he did not put up the same numbers. it seems to me that if the POY race comes down to a few guys, their performance when going head to head should actually mean something. this reminds me of the college football fiasco with texas/oklahoma. don't the results on the court/field of play matter?
I haven't read the whole thread, but wanted to make sure it's clear to everyone that the 8 coaches are the only ones that vote for the All-WCC awards.

(coaches can't vote for themself or their own players)

webspinnre
03-04-2009, 01:16 PM
Are you guys THAT afraid of opposing views? ...I haven't been on this board that often, but I would say many Zag fans would be perfectly content to tell each other how wonderful everything is in Spokane.

As for the Pac-10, it may be down this year, but I'd still rate it a hair better than the WCC. You may think me a troll, but I don't think you guys would go 14-0 in the Pac-10. Even in a "weak" year.

No one here things the WCC is better than the Pac-10, or that we'd be undefeated in the Pac-10. On the other hand, clearly GU would be somewhere near the top of the Pac-10. Also, while there are several players in the WCC who are as good or sometimes better than some of our players, none of them are that much better that swapping one of ours for one of theirs would be a big improvement. Additionally, GU is clearly the best team in the league in terms of both overall talent and overall depth. I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here.

GolfZag
03-04-2009, 01:23 PM
Are you guys THAT afraid of opposing views? ...I haven't been on this board that often, but I would say many Zag fans would be perfectly content to tell each other how wonderful everything is in Spokane.

As for the Pac-10, it may be down this year, but I'd still rate it a hair better than the WCC. You may think me a troll, but I don't think you guys would go 14-0 in the Pac-10. Even in a "weak" year.

Do you have anything intelligent to add to this thread? :confused:

We are all aware that there are stronger conferences than the WCC.

bballbeachbum
03-04-2009, 01:41 PM
It was Mills to me, without taking anything away from anyone else in the league, but then he got hurt...unfortunate but history nonetheless. When he returns Sunday, does his game return with him? Probably not in full, but I'm interested to see what he's got right now.

Opportunities for all to express themselves are availble this weekend. Which players are peaking right now, which are dominating their roles, which teams are peaking, and which players are responsible for these teams getting it done right now?

Chapters still to be written here.......................man I wish I was going to be in Vegas baby!

tobizag
03-04-2009, 01:52 PM
I haven't read the whole thread, but wanted to make sure it's clear to everyone that the 8 coaches are the only ones that vote for the All-WCC awards.

(coaches can't vote for themself or their own players)

lothar, i appreciate the information.

still, imo, to vote the way they did (for POY and 1st team in Mills' case) is moronic.

mills is an amazing talent, but if the criteria is games played in conference, and he only played 5 1/2, that's dumb. give him honorable mention, but first team???

and like i said before, what the POY candidates do against the best competition in league is more important in my eyes. imo, bouldin and heytvelt deserved it more than bryant.

lothar98zag
03-04-2009, 02:03 PM
lothar, i appreciate the information.

still, imo, to vote the way they did (for POY and 1st team in Mills' case) is moronic.

mills is an amazing talent, but if the criteria is games played in conference, and he only played 5 1/2, that's dumb. give him honorable mention, but first team???

and like i said before, what the POY candidates do against the best competition in league is more important in my eyes. imo, bouldin and heytvelt deserved it more than bryant.
for the record, there is no option to vote someone "honorable mention." Those listed as HM are players that got at least 1 vote for 1st team All-WCC, but didn't get enough to be in the top 10.

NotoriousZ
03-04-2009, 02:14 PM
This is just hillarious. A 15 year old little d-bag troll found his mamma's laptop and decided to share his wisdom with us here. It's not necessary to indulge him further...mods please ban this punk, he can get back to his gay porn and we'll all be happy!

lothar98zag
03-04-2009, 02:19 PM
I haven't read the whole thread...
I wish this was still true...
:fingergun: