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View Full Version : Knight Says to Shake Up Lineup



S.U. Chieftain
02-07-2009, 07:08 PM
So if Few agrees with Knight and shakes up the lineup against St. Mary's to "send a message" to his team, how about:
Heytvelt
Downs
Bouldin
Gray
Goodson
with Ira! the first off the bench?

btzag
02-07-2009, 07:14 PM
I don't quite agree with starting the next game with a different lineup. All that is going to do is shake the confidence of those players even more and that is the last thing the Zags need.

Instead use this as a coaching opportunity and drill it all week long. It should be very apparent to those players what is needed to improve their games. However if they come out and give that effort again Few should go to that second group again to remind those starters how they should 'want' to win.

WRHUradio
02-07-2009, 07:16 PM
I would say to NOT change the current lineup because vs St. Mary's the current lineup is good. Vs a Memphis there isn't a lineup that could get it done unless some players add significant elements to their game that they currently don't have.

I think it's one of those games where you have to accept that they're the much better team that could reach an Elite 8 and that if GU tries to do too much tinkering then they will lose what they currently have that works vs WCC and lower-level comp.

zagcoug
02-07-2009, 07:18 PM
I don't quite agree with starting the next game with a different lineup. All that is going to do is shake the confidence of those players even more and that is the last thing the Zags need.

Instead use this as a coaching opportunity and drill it all week long. It should be very apparent to those players what is needed to improve their games. However if they come out and give that effort again Few should go to that second group again to remind those starters how they should 'want' to win.

How can you say that? Pargo has been poor all year and Daye needs a lesson in maturity and benching him might do it. Move on to Goodson. How sad is it to have your senior point guard on the bench at the end of the game.

S.U. Chieftain
02-07-2009, 07:19 PM
Shaking up the lineup wouldn't be my first thought either. Just saying Knight said it, so going with his "what if...?".
But I would like Few to sub more quickly. When we opened the second half no better than the first, he should have put in Ira! and Meech for energy. He didn't put them in until we had played another 12 minutes.

jazzdelmar
02-07-2009, 07:20 PM
few would rather comb his hair back than to bench his beloved pgo.....just wont happen.

zagfan08
02-07-2009, 07:43 PM
The fact is without Pargo playing well we don't have a shot at making a deep run in March. Benching him will only hurt his confidence. We need him to get that confidence back, because he is far and away the most important part of this team.

jazzdelmar
02-07-2009, 07:44 PM
The fact is without Pargo playing well we don't have a shot at making a deep run in March. Benching him will only hurt his confidence. We need him to get that confidence back, because he is far and away the most important part of this team.

HUH????

zagfan08
02-07-2009, 08:01 PM
Jeremy Pargo is the most important player on this team. When he plays well, we play well. When he doesn't, we are average at best.

If we want to make a deep run in the tourney then we need Pargo playing up to his ability. I think we need to let the senior play through his mistakes and get back into the groove he had last year and the start of this year.

krozman
02-07-2009, 08:03 PM
The fact is without Pargo playing well we don't have a shot at making a deep run in March. Benching him will only hurt his confidence. We need him to get that confidence back, because he is far and away the most important part of this team.

I disagree in that I think that we have plenty of OTHER talent to win in a game besides Pargo.

However, I agree with you in the sense that Whenever we lose in the tournament, it will be a night that Pargo played like today.

WRHUradio
02-07-2009, 08:09 PM
And I agree with both JazzD and the ppl commenting against it..

Few knows Pargo better than we all do...is JP too sensitive to maybe take a benching next game for Goodson? If the answer is yes, then doing it may cause Post-UConn-flakeout Part 2

Pargo is still a better shooter than Goodson, and I think Goodson playing 30 mins eventually will be exposed offensively vs the better teams this year because they will just leave him wide open and dare him to shoot and live with the 20% from 3 he'll shoot.

I think you make minor changes rather than drastic moves such as completely changing the identity of the team.

1000% agree with the poster that says whenever this season ends, it will be a game that the opposing coach completely tries to take Pargo out of the game and that will finish us, giving a bad ending to what otherwise will be a great career that will pass the torch on to a potential upgrade in Goodson

btzag
02-07-2009, 08:10 PM
How can you say that? Pargo has been poor all year and Daye needs a lesson in maturity and benching him might do it. Move on to Goodson. How sad is it to have your senior point guard on the bench at the end of the game.

I suppose if your thought is to beat your players down and to teach them that if they don't play up to your standards then they will sit then that might be a good idea. In fact, I think you might be right, let's just punish these players away since we are all so disappointed by this game... Give me a break.

Both guys are good players that had bad games and if they had played like this all year this team would be under .500 and neither guy would be starting. There was a reason he was on the bench at the end of the game, as was Bouldin and Daye, they stunk and others were getting it down. That is a team, you lift each other up, not tear each other down as you are suggesting for the next game and beyond.

jim77
02-07-2009, 08:23 PM
We got intimidated and were up against better athletes. Forget about finessing a team like Memphis. You had better stand up to them or you will leave minus you're lunch money and sand in you're eyes. We simply weren't use to this level of athlete and didn't know how to react. The reason why meech was effective was because he does have the speed of the Memphis players AND he wasn't intimidated. I also think Memphis is better than their ranking...they are much better than when I saw them earlier. Those bcs schools are lucky they aren't playing Memphis about now. Its the coaches call on who starts.

zagcoug
02-07-2009, 08:24 PM
Pargo has played poorly all year not just this game. At what point do you need to try a different approach with Pargo? I dont think Pargo is a good point guard at all and disagree with your premise.
I think Goodson would be better for the team at this point.
Daye is a good player but is immature, everyone can see that. Poor EFFORT cannot be rewarded with playing time. I'm not talking about not hitting shots but not running and hustling as Few was quoted as yelling at Daye.

CDC84
02-07-2009, 08:29 PM
The problem is that Pargo is still a dominant guard within the WCC. See the Portland game. Most guards within the league don't have a prayer of guarding him, and with Patty Mills being out, SMC is likely going to struggle with him as well. There's less incentive to make a change. There are no Antonio Anderson/Tyreke Evans guys within GU's conference.

If Demetri Goodson ever wants to start at PG in this program, he has to stop hand checking and picking up cheap fouls. He's too overly aggressive on defense at times. I love his energy, but he has to stay on the court. He doesn't need to be that aggressive to be a good defender.

zagcoug
02-07-2009, 08:35 PM
Arent we trying to compete nationally though? Of course Pargo is good enough for the WCC it's a weak league that doesn't prepare us for the tourney or games like this.
Pargo isn't even playing that well in league though actually. He was horrible against even Pepperdine! I know it won't happen but Meech has more more heart and should start.
Who do you think Knight was talking about when he said shaking up the lineup?

btzag
02-07-2009, 08:43 PM
Knight is a HOF'er but if the Zags ever took on his personality and opinions I would no longer be a fan. Don't forget he is just a talking head now who probably saw the Zags play for the first time all year.

Also don't forget that these so-called experts were calling this a home game even though they know it is not their home court. Lots of neutral fans out there right now probably think that Spokane Arena is somehow K2.

Like I said before, Few might need to have a quicker trigger when effort is in question but at this point in the season there is no way that you bench your senior pg in favor of a true freshman. Daye is an even more difficult decision because they have zero backups for him. They need him like no other player on their team and that is just a fact. I know he needs to grow as a player but we have seen his effort before and we will see it again soon.

CDC84
02-07-2009, 08:56 PM
Arent we trying to compete nationally though? Of course Pargo is good enough for the WCC it's a weak league that doesn't prepare us for the tourney or games like this.

The problem is that the non-league schedule is over, and we're nearing mid-February. The priority is to win the league at this point. Pargo has had more good games than bad games in league play so far. He was the WCC player of the year for a reason last season. SMC's guards really struggled with him in the 2nd half last week. He presents too many matchup advantages to sit him, even when he's turning it over and making some bad decisions.

Bob Knight is not aware of the personnel that exists within the WCC, and he hasn't seen Pargo play enough within the WCC. He's been coaching too much Big 12 and Big 10 basketball.

I've seen Coach Few operate enough to know he would never start an inexperienced freshman PG in the environment Gonzaga's going into Thursday night unless that PG was Derrick Rose. It's just not what he does as a coach. And he especially wouldn't make such a move with just a few weeks left in the regular season.

zagcoug
02-07-2009, 08:56 PM
If Sacre comes back next week we could do a lot more with our lineup.
Move Heytvelt to power forward where he's a more natural fit; Downs/Daye to small forward, Bouldin to the two and Meech/Pargo to the one.

theirishzag03
02-07-2009, 09:10 PM
Going back to the ORIGINAL starting 5 that won the OSC???

DOWNS, PARGO, HEYTVELT, BOULDIN, and DAYE???

Quick trigger for lack of effort and/or energy! Sub more, play harder! Ira, Meech, and Gray in quick. NOT 8 to 12 minutes into a half! We play like spoiled kids sometimes. With an attitude of "Entitlement" instead of a survivor/fighter.

Adversity is not our friend, we need to play through it. The officiating was horrific tonight, like 2 completely different games at each end of the floor. Mauled at one end without a whistle and quick whistles at the other end. But instead of playing through it and getting pissed, we cry.

What happened to black jerseys??? We should have worn pink! Maybe Few could make them wear PINK until they show otherwise.

jim77
02-07-2009, 09:13 PM
It sure would be nice to have Rob back...It would have been nice to have more muscle in there. We got killed on the boards....If Rob is cleared, screw the redshirt. Having Josh and Rob in there would change things.

rawkmandale
02-07-2009, 09:36 PM
Yeah, we need Rob back on the floor.

GolfZag
02-07-2009, 10:00 PM
The problem is that the non-league schedule is over, and we're nearing mid-February. The priority is to win the league at this point. Pargo has had more good games than bad games in league play so far. He was the WCC player of the year for a reason last season. SMC's guards really struggled with him in the 2nd half last week. He presents too many matchup advantages to sit him, even when he's turning it over and making some bad decisions.

Bob Knight is not aware of the personnel that exists within the WCC, and he hasn't seen Pargo play enough within the WCC. He's been coaching too much Big 12 and Big 10 basketball.
I've seen Coach Few operate enough to know he would never start an inexperienced freshman PG in the environment Gonzaga's going into Thursday night unless that PG was Derrick Rose. It's just not what he does as a coach. And he especially wouldn't make such a move with just a few weeks left in the regular season.


I think Bob Knight is more aware of the personnel that exists in the WCC as much as anyone in the country. He isn't saying to shakeup the lineup because he doesn't think Pargo is a good point guard. The reason why he is saying that is so it will light a fire under his @ss. Imagine how fired up Pargo would be next game if he came off the bench after about five minutes into the game. It has absolutely nothing to do with Pargo's matchup advantages or his ability....it's all about intensity or lack thereof. Pargo and others showed zero intensity tonight and that is the reason Bob said to "shake it up".

CDC84
02-07-2009, 11:29 PM
I think Bob Knight is more aware of the personnel that exists in the WCC as much as anyone in the country.

There are people who rarely post on this board that know 10x more about what goes on in the WCC than he does. Red Sweater is being paid by ESPN to analyze BCS level basketball - mainly involving teams from the midwest and back east. I would be willing to bet he couldn't name you one player on LMU's roster, and maybe even 2 or 3 head coaches in the WCC. That guy's in bed dreaming of the deer he's going to be hunting the next morning by the time most WCC games tip off. Most national sportswriters and TV analysts don't know squat about the WCC and its personnel ....he doesn't either.

That being said, I think he's a very good game analyst. He's kind of like Rick Majerus, but with a much better delivery.

zagfan1
02-08-2009, 02:02 AM
In then end we want to contend in the NCAA tourney. We need to find that starting 5 that will get us there. I believe with the change in the lineup GU still wins in the WCC. Goodson started slow as he made turnovers but he made up for it in the second half. Pargo has given up. He is hurting the team and deserves to be benched. There is not way to change his confidence at this point. I am sure Few has done everything to help Pargo and Pargo has not responded. I would rather see a team that plays hard and has emotion and lose the WCC then a team that has no emotion and selectively plays hard and wins the WCC but gets slaughtered in the tournament. What are we really trying to accomplish here?

bballbeachbum
02-08-2009, 06:36 AM
I will never believe Bob Knight has a good thought for us, cares for us, would ever give a sincere idea to help us. That's just crazy.

And I don't know what game you all watched, but when Meech came in after about 5 minutes, he was the deer in the headlights, end of discussion. Yes, he played much better when he got another chance in the 2nd half, but when he entered the game, he didn't look at the basket at all and played intimidated.

I am not ripping on him...he's a freshmen!!! I love how he responded when he got back onto the floor. But he really struggled in that first half, just like everyone else.

My point is Jeremy. It's not effort, come on. It's confidence. Anybody who has played knows. I hope he can make his first shot in games down the stretch here, because his confidence is shot, and man do we need him.

And those of you piling on SUCK. Fair weather fans make me sick. Talk about weak wussies.

Now anonymously neg rep me for calling you out in public and prove my point.

montanazag88
02-08-2009, 06:38 AM
Pargo is only one guy. Bench the entire starting lineup for the start of the next game? Nope. Bench them if they don't:
- play tight man-to-man
- fill the paint with 3-4 superior-positioned players on every shot (not just rebound)
- get back on defense (looking behind them as they go)
- make hard screens on every attempt (Memphis was required to make no difficult switches last night)

Attitudes of the players do reflect the coach, but coaches recognize player's lack of energy early in games and apply some serious public humiliation (sorry gang, but that's what works with today's elite athletes..and we have them) before it gets ugly. If it gets ugly, there was no way to win regardless, but you didn't risk a month-long meltdown of confidence.

Zaghuatanejo
02-08-2009, 07:15 AM
The problem is that Pargo is still a dominant guard within the WCC. See the Portland game. Most guards within the league don't have a prayer of guarding him, and with Patty Mills being out, SMC is likely going to struggle with him as well. There's less incentive to make a change. There are no Antonio Anderson/Tyreke Evans guys within GU's conference.

If Demetri Goodson ever wants to start at PG in this program, he has to stop hand checking and picking up cheap fouls. He's too overly aggressive on defense at times. I love his energy, but he has to stay on the court. He doesn't need to be that aggressive to be a good defender.

Agreed. He has quick enough feet to consistently stay in front of his defender and prevent penetration, yet he continues to reach in. I'm hoping it's just a Freshman thing but he seems to pick up 1-2 "dumb" fouls each game. If he just focuses on his denial of penetration, picks a few spots throughout the game to make those steals, and remains an absolute pest on defense we should be in good shape for the next few years.

roxdoc
02-08-2009, 07:29 AM
With our state of affairs as it is I would favor going for a medical redshirt for Rob. Used now he would be too little too late - let him heal and save him for a future "our year". This one isn't it.

Hextall7388
02-08-2009, 08:14 AM
Pargo - I would not bench. He played terrible last night, but you could see that the effort was there. The majority of his turnovers were the result of trying too hard and making stupid decisions with the ball. I can accept that he had a bad night, and that he was no match for a top tier player like Tyreke Evans. Evans is just that much better that Pargo.

Daye - I cannot accept his lack of hussle and determination. I like Daye, but his pouting and mini tantrums out on the court have got to stop. He is a year older, but I don't see much improvement over last year on that front. If any NBA scouts were watching that game I'm certain that the message to Daye will be to stay in college another year. I would bench Daye for the start of the next game to send a message. If Daye is around next year, he and Bouldin will be the stars. I really hope Bouldin takes the leadership role early next year and Daye matures, because we have a lot of fresh faces and impressionable young players coming in that will be looking to Bouldin and Daye.

Bouldin did not play well, but I'm not surprised. There are two teams that are match up nightmares for Bouldin every year. Memphis and Washington State.

06/07
WSU 22 mins 2pts
Mem 27 mins 8pts

07/08
WSU 29 mins 0pts
Mem 31 mins 6pts

08/09
WSU 29 mins 8pts
Mem 27 mins 6pts

Josh - Never gave up! Loved the fight he had last night.

Gray/Downs - This is nothing against Gray, but I'd like to see Downs starting. Both could easily start, I just think Gray handles coming off the bench better than Downs. Downs appears plays with more confidence as a starter. Gray is consistent, whether he is starting or the 6th guy off the bench.

Reborn
02-08-2009, 08:34 AM
The solution is NOT to bench anyone. The problem was the style of play last night. We can not beat a team as tough as Memphis by playing zone. We just do not rebound well at all when we play zone. We got killed on the boards last night. I'm not saying that Memphis can't be beaten by a team who plays zone, because they can be. They are NOT good shooters at all. But to beat them you have to be able to rebound, and there are teams who will rebound with Memphis.

And that loss was not Pargo's fault alone, fans. They stopped all three guards. Our guards hit one jump shot last night and it was not a 3 pointer. They shot 20% from the field, and 0% from the 3 point line.

I thought our game plan stunk last night. We will never beat a tough team like Memphis by walking the ball up court and letting them get set in their defense so they can knock the crap out of us. To beat Memphis, or any very physical team, you must push the ball up court and NOT let them get set into their defense. But the only problem with that, is that a team has to be able to rebound inorder to push the ball up court. Our poor rebounding is really killing us.

The Zags finally looked like the Zags the last 7 minutes of the game. We had energy, we pressed, we pushed the ball up court. We attacked. Why did it take us so long to get into THAT STYLE OF PLAY. Especially since that style has been what has created success for the Zags this year?

spudzag
02-08-2009, 08:45 AM
Pargo - I would not bench. He played terrible last night, but you could see that the effort was there. The majority of his turnovers were the result of trying too hard and making stupid decisions with the ball. I can accept that he had a bad night, and that he was no match for a top tier player like Tyreke Evans. Evans is just that much better that Pargo.

Daye - I cannot accept his lack of hussle and determination. I like Daye, but his pouting and mini tantrums out on the court have got to stop. He is a year older, but I don't see much improvement over last year on that front. If any NBA scouts were watching that game I'm certain that the message to Daye will be to stay in college another year. I would bench Daye for the start of the next game to send a message. If Daye is around next year, he and Bouldin will be the stars. I really hope Bouldin takes the leadership role early next year and Daye matures, because we have a lot of fresh faces and impressionable young players coming in that will be looking to Bouldin and Daye.

Bouldin did not play well, but I'm not surprised. There are two teams that are match up nightmares for Bouldin every year. Memphis and Washington State.

06/07
WSU 22 mins 2pts
Mem 27 mins 8pts

07/08
WSU 29 mins 0pts
Mem 31 mins 6pts

08/09
WSU 29 mins 8pts
Mem 27 mins 6pts

Josh - Never gave up! Loved the fight he had last night.

Gray/Downs - This is nothing against Gray, but I'd like to see Downs starting. Both could easily start, I just think Gray handles coming off the bench better than Downs. Downs appears plays with more confidence as a starter. Gray is consistent, whether he is starting or the 6th guy off the bench.

Agreed, good insight.

zagzilla
02-08-2009, 08:50 AM
We should not change the starting lineup, HOWEVER something has to be done about Austin by Few.

This season his attitude has been poor even when his play has been mostly great. The disrespect he displays for his coach, for the officals and for the game are part of what's holding us back. This is undermining Few and setting a terrible example from a team leader.

Few has put up with his bickering on the sideline on national TV earlier this season, whining about (non)calls and lack of hustle. Hate to say it but the kid needs to be taken down a peg for his own good.

Few should send him to the bench next time it happens regardless of the game situation and every time until this is fixed.

I really love Austin's game and think this is part of the growing up process

ZagHouse
02-08-2009, 09:37 AM
After the game on Thursday, Bouldin was speaking to Richard Fox and was asked about Memphis. While he said it was great to be playing a top 25 team at this point in the season, the team's focus had been on beating Portland and winning the WCC. The fact that Knight is possibly ignorant of the fact that our starting five scored 93 points, just two nights prior, shows that he's only on ESPN for his name and in-game analysis. A quality analyst would at least know a bit more about the program and wouldn't make such an inane comment. Before last night, 9 in a row and playing well. A comment like his suggests that last night is the norm and a shake up is justified. Last night hasn't been the norm--is a fluke in my opinion and is possibly just a result of the guys leaving some focus and energy on the floor at Portland and not bringing it home for last night's game.

zagfan1
02-08-2009, 10:36 AM
If the attitude of players such as Bouldin was that it was nice to play Memphis but other than that not a big concern because they are focussed on the WCC is very concerning as a fan. Is the team that emotionally fragile to worry about breaking a finger nail against Memphis but not care if they did against Portland since they are not out of conference? I was pleased with the play of Downs and I think Heytfelt did show some heart and effort even though he might have been a little confused against the matchups. I think Few has a huge challenge ahead. I know he is doing everything to get his star players motivated and mentally tougher but they are not responding to him for whatever reason. I think we are all scratching our heads on that. In regards to Pargo, I have talked to a lot of zags fans about Pargo and the consensus is that he is checked out and as a result is timid and seems a little confused and that is why he is making a ton of mistakes. I think he saw his NBA hopes vanish after the scouts saw his mistakes in the UCONN game and is selfishly letting negative resulting feelings dictate his future play. I wish there was a way to convince him that there still is a way to right the ship for himself. If the leader of our team cannot get it together then we are in trouble unless Goodson can demonstrate what he did in those last ten minutes of the game for forty minutes in the future.

Bogozags
02-08-2009, 01:08 PM
Think I would like to see Bouldin, Downs, Gray, Daye and Josh start...and lets see how they do against SMC. Duke sat their PG in favor of second year player Smith and it seemed to work against Miami yesterday!

dim4sum
02-08-2009, 02:48 PM
From the start it has been a question of self-definition and self-deception. In his inner-recesses Pargo defines himself as a star, rather than a role player who could, but never has, become a star.
Ask yourself one question: does Jeremy make other players better?
To me, that's the supreme definition of a point guard.
I'd like to see a separate thread on that subject--does Jeremy make other players better? I know what the answer will be and that is why his NBA prospects have gone down the tube.

theirishzag03
02-08-2009, 03:37 PM
Pargo, Downs, Brown, Gray, and Heytvelt start---Bring Matt, Austin, and Meech off the bench. Meech is fast and can drive and kick to Matt or Austin. Too many role players off the bench and not enough shots for the starters how it is now.

chirguy
02-08-2009, 03:39 PM
[QUOTE=zagfan08;360689]Jeremy Pargo is the most important player on this team. When he plays well, we play well. When he doesn't, we are average at best.

If we want to make a deep run in the tourney then we need Pargo playing up to his ability. I think we need to let the senior play through his mistakes and get back into the groove he had last year and the start of this year.[/QUOTE

Jeremy seems to be a good kid and obviously he has lot of talent, but he's not a clutch player. Last year whenever he had a good game we lost. Whenever we play a team with good defense he falters. For two maybe three years I heard people defend Pargo, but he constantly hurts the team and he the worst player on the starting five. Give me Matt or Steven or Meech.