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dnj116
01-13-2009, 08:52 PM
I know that SMC's ranking has already been talked about but thought this quote deserved its own thread.


Coaches poll: I don't doubt Saint Mary's is good, and that it might even be one of the best 25 teams in the country. As I've said many times, I don't think there's a whole bunch of difference between No. 15 and No. 40 this season. So if you'll accept that premise, and you believe Saint Mary's is one of the best 40 teams in the country, then I suppose it's OK for the Gaels to be 25th in the Coaches poll.

But I still must ask: What have they done to deserve it?

They aren't in possession of a good victory (unless you want to count Providence, which I don't), and they probably haven't even played a team that'll make the NCAA tournament. Likewise, the Gaels aren't obviously great despite quality wins like, say, UCLA. And it's not like they're perfect either, because they have a 13-point loss to UTEP.

So, I'll ask again, what has this team done to climb into the Top 25 besides play a simple schedule?

Correct answer: Nothing, really.

Every other ranked team -- save perhaps, UCLA, which falls into the "obviously good" category because of the roster featuring Darren Collison, Jrue Holiday and Josh Shipp -- has a victory better than Saint Mary's victory over Providence, and so I guess my point is just that I'm not a big fan of rewarding teams for playing bad schedules. It's why I would've never ranked Illinois State even if it moved to 20-0, why I had Pittsburgh ranked lower than just about everybody until it won at Georgetown, and why I have UCLA ranked lower than the AP and Coaches polls now.

Bottom line, I want to know who you can beat.

And as of Jan. 12, 2009, Saint Mary's hasn't beaten anybody.



I think this ties into the potential schedule topic for next semester as well. Yes with the games that CDC mentioned, we'll already have a tough schedule (tougher than SMC's this year) but I think this shows why we need to play that tough schedule every year.

(Also, couldn't find this posted anywhere, if this is a repeat, feel free to remove mods)

gu03alum
01-13-2009, 09:33 PM
I agree with this. St Mary's hasn't beaten anyone yet and is being rewarded for it. Gonzaga on the other hand is being punished for it's difficult schedule. What really matters is tournament seeding. Right now lunardi has gonzaga as a 5 seed (in portland) and st mary's as a 10 seed.

theirishzag03
01-13-2009, 10:07 PM
Are you serious Parish, you have teams that are rated simply because they are "obviously good?"

St. Mary's has a nice trio of Mills, Samhan, and Simpson! So I guess they fall into the category as well. I don't remember any of the UCLA trio in Bejing scoring 20.

St. Mary's has beaten the teams it should, and lost to a hot UTEP team that lost to #2 ranked and unbeaten Wake Forest by 3pts 82-79. They are (IMO) a victim of scheduling teams that have been good, but are having down seasons such as Kent St, Southern Illinois, and Oregon.

My main complaint is the "obviously good" comment

Reborn
01-13-2009, 10:17 PM
Like others have said, what meaning is there in the polls these days?
Joe Lunardi, bracketology, has them a ten seed in March. The good news. We get to play them twice or three times to find out who's reallly better. I like settling things on the court.

Angelo Roncalli
01-13-2009, 10:40 PM
St. Mary's has only beaten 2 teams with RPI's below 100, Providence (79) and SDSU (47). SMU's loss was to UTEP, RPI 78. The RPI's of SMC's last 8 opponents: 103 (UO), 133 (SIU), 137 (UoP), 212 (SJSU), 142 (Morgan St.), 317 (CSUB), 207 (SCU), and 131 (USF).

MDABE80
01-13-2009, 10:44 PM
They'll beat us if we don't play good defense and get on those boards like life depended on it. The one thing about OOC games.....tough or not....they prepare teams for the WCC. I'd say "mission accomplished" for SMC. They'll be sky high to prove they deserve things. They're alwasy tough but it'll be much tougher this year. REBOUND!!! Take good shots.

JohnOGU
01-14-2009, 01:05 AM
I agree, SMC has done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to deserve the ranking thay they have. If you want to rank them 25, then rank us at like 20 atleast. Anyone who argues that they deserve to be ranked should automatically lose all credibility on this board (irish). that is outrageous. SMC is not a bad team, but they are not a good team. I have them no where near my top 25. Id probably put UW in before them to be honest. Yes, they have Patty Mills, which everyone has made a huge overrated claim about. i havent heard #### about him other than his shot in the Santa Clara victory. His stats are nothing spectacular. Quit crowning these guys. if you wanna make the argument that aby team ca be beaten any night, then ok, thats true. We're the better team tho. This ranking of SMC is ridiculous. I seriously feel that ESPN should grant me the right to the polls, because apparently the coaches nationwide have lost their minds. i can think of numerous teams, including GU that i would put ahead of SMC, because again, theyve done absolutely nothing to deserve it with their zero marquee wins, and weak-ass non-conference schedule. Period.

alaskazagnut
01-14-2009, 04:19 AM
because then we can have wins over 2 ranked teams for our resume. we need to go undefeated the rest of the year in order to get a decent seed. Who here hopes for an 8/9 seed? No one I hope. A conference championship and a WCC tourny championship should at least get us up to a 5seed or better. A 3 or a 6 seed would be a blessing but history has our best as a 10 seed.

Go Zags!!!

TexasZagFan
01-14-2009, 04:31 AM
Those two wins over Tennessee are depreciating by the day.

theirishzag03
01-14-2009, 07:33 AM
JohnOGU- my complaint was that Parish has UCLA ranked because they are "obviously good"

I do feel the Zags are better than St. Mary's- I do feel the Zags fall into "obviously good" (and prooven that by winning the OSC)- BUT I have heard Few use beating the teams we should as a defense before. Or "we can't help it that our conference has a weak RPI" defense. Also heard him say, "when we scheduled them we thought they were going to be good?

I also feel as if the Gaels would win at Utah and beat PSU at home. Remember we are still ahead of them in the AP, just not the coaches poll.

We made our bed by having a 3 game and 4/5 game losing streak, to say we should be 20th RIGHT NOW, would be using the same logic as Parish (Obviously Good) I suggest we earn back our ranking like we did early on by winning.

We started off ranked in the top 10-12, based on being "obviously good" and lost it by being "obviously vulnerable." Ironic part is the only way to move up is to beat the teams in our conference (which amount to quality wins equal to those of St. Mary's so far) except St. Mary's and Memphis.

I hope we are NOT counting on a big win over South Carolina Upstate to leapfrog teams in the polls!

NotoriousZ
01-14-2009, 07:40 AM
St. Mary's has only beaten 2 teams with RPI's below 100, Providence (79) and SDSU (47). SMU's loss was to UTEP, RPI 78. The RPI's of SMC's last 8 opponents: 103 (UO), 133 (SIU), 137 (UoP), 212 (SJSU), 142 (Morgan St.), 317 (CSUB), 207 (SCU), and 131 (USF).

I think you left out their season opener vs. the Rocco School of Typewriter Repair. I still love that quote, thanks to whoever came up with that one. Let's hope SMU doesn't lose until January 29th.

Go Zags!

GUZagDenver
01-14-2009, 08:11 AM
I don't remember any of the UCLA trio in Bejing scoring 20.


If I hear another comment about Patty Mills scoring 20 points in the Olympics I am going to kill myself. Every year some unknown lights up Team USA when they are up by 20.

These guys haven't beaten anybody. I wouldn't be suprised if they beat us, but they should not be ranked.

CanadianZagFan
01-14-2009, 08:17 AM
I say good for Saint Mary's for being ranked! They have played 9 of their 16 games on the road as well.I hope we just go out and win the ball games we should and everything will take care of its self by the time the "tournament" comes around.

As for JohnOGU saying Patty Mills is overrated and his stats are nothing special I would say that you may want to reconsider. 20 ppg 2.3 steals 3.4 assists from a sophomore is pretty solid....his turnovers are a little to high, but he is having a good year.

theirishzag03
01-14-2009, 09:40 AM
I don't remember any of the UCLA 3 being in Bejing (period). I don't remember any of them scoring 22 against ARGENTINA and Manu Ginobili. The "dropping 20 on team USA" is a bit over-used.

We all better hope there is some credibility in their wins or it won't do us or our league a whole lot of good to beat them or worse if we happen to lose a game to them.

Once again, my point was the polls should not include a factor of "obviously good" Boston College is obviously good (beating UNC in Raleigh), but losses to Harvard and Miami dropped them out of the polls. Boston College beat UNC and jumped into the polls at #17....and check out their wins---same Providence team St. Mary's beat, UAB, and Iowa (decent wins) and then 9 wins against Central Conn. St, Loyola (MD), St. John's, UMass, *Bryant*, *S.C. Upstate*, Maine, USF, and *Sacred Heart* (hospital 2nd floor staff only).... they had also lost at Purdue and Saint Louis...

So, if BC deserved to be ranked, so does St. Mary's...and if they don't belong, it will become evident and they will lose and drop accordingly. They unlike other teams from BCS schools have little margin for error from here on out. If they lose they will free fall out of the polls. BC is always only a win against UNC or Duke or Wake from joining the top 25 again even witrh a home loss to HARVARD.

gamagin
01-14-2009, 10:07 AM
they take the Zags seriously. And better or not, we have to be better when the game starts until it ends.

there isn't a poll in the world that can help us or hurt us. It's all just noise.

CDC84
01-14-2009, 10:14 AM
UCLA's best win is over Miami of Ohio at Pauley Pavilion - a game that they barely won. They have the Arizona schools coming in Thursday and Saturday.

Patty Mills, no matter how talented he may be, or how many clutch shots he may nail, continues to be an inconsistent player. He's only shooting 41% from the floor. His assist to turnover ratio is only 1.1 to 1, and he's only averaging 3.4 assists per game. The much criticized Jeremy Pargo is shooting 47% from the floor, has a 2.2 to 1 assist to turnover ratio, and is averaging 6.4 assists per game.

odeasmcgu
01-14-2009, 10:35 AM
There is no doubt that GU plays one of toughest schedules in the nation, hands down. I think pollsters are punishing them for losing to two teams they shouldn't have lost to (PSU and Utah, the former being a home loss). All and all, I think Gonzaga fans have something to gripe about. But I think its unfair for you guys to jump to conclusions that the Gaels don't deserve their rankings.

First off, you really can't blame the Gaels for their scheduling woes. Unlike Gonzaga who is a big name crowd pleaser and can draw the home-home contracts or neutral-home contracts, teams just won't play SMC, especially this year. Do you really thinks teams in the Pac Ten, Big 12, or Mountain West want to see another WCC Team succeed and allow Gonzaga and the conference to gain more credibility than it already has. Last season, having three teams in the tournament proved to be a real threat to major conferences. They want those spots and don't believe smaller conferences (I hate the term mid majors) deserve multiple bids so they just wont play you.

So a lot depends on those tournaments like the Anaheim Classic, and yes the Gaels faultered by losing to UTEP. SMC also was in talks to play either Memphis or the other GU at the Pete Newell, but that got cancelled.

As for what has actually happened Saint Mary's, they have played whoever is willing to play them on whatever court they will play them at. Thus the Gaels have played the majority of their games away from home...that counts for something. Just look at it this way, the best Zag teams are those under the radar. If SMC keeps winning you may just have that going into the tournament, and who cares so long as you get into the tournament. Besides I would argue that GU is better off as an 11 or 12 seed rather than a 6,7.

CanadianZagFan
01-14-2009, 11:03 AM
UCLA's best win is over Miami of Ohio at Pauley Pavilion - a game that they barely won. They have the Arizona schools coming in Thursday and Saturday.

Patty Mills, no matter how talented he may be, or how many clutch shots he may nail, continues to be an inconsistent player. He's only shooting 41% from the floor. His assist to turnover ratio is only 1.1 to 1, and he's only averaging 3.4 assists per game. The much criticized Jeremy Pargo is shooting 47% from the floor, has a 2.2 to 1 assist to turnover ratio, and is averaging 6.4 assists per game.

Mills is also a sophomore not a senior like Pargo is. He also is being keyed in upon by other teams and his youth is showing a bit in the turnover department. He does however hit 88% of his free throws and over 32% (not great) from 3. His points per shot are better than that of Pargo, as is his free throw shooting. I like Pargo, I feel he will improve on his numbers by the end of the season, but people need to give Mills the credit he deserves.

DixieZag
01-14-2009, 11:31 AM
There is absolutely no less useful endeavor than trying to make sense of the rankings, except possibly arguing for a football playoff. But, rankings matter in the sense that they can impact seeding, so I am glad that St. Mary's is ranked. It helps our conference and thus helps us.

The only thing we know for sure, is that the Gaels will play us with all the intensity they can muster, IF we match that, than we might beat them, if we don't, we most certainly will not. It is not easy being Gonzaga, perhaps we were the beneficiary of being "over ranked" at the beginning of the year, but the fact is, we will get every teams best effort in conference. And no matter what conference you are in, if you are the focus, life is tough. Heres to hoping that we play with pride, earned by the name on the uniform, and run through the kangaroos like a bunch of crazed dogs.

jayray
01-14-2009, 12:22 PM
. . . Who here hopes for an 8/9 seed? No one I hope. A conference championship and a WCC tourny championship should at least get us up to a 5seed or better. A 3 or a 6 seed would be a blessing but history has our best as a 10 seed.

Go Zags!!!

Does the seeding really matter at this point? Any seed is a good seed. It doesn't matter, look at what has been done in the past with a high seed. IF they get in, I'm beginning to think a crappy seed my be a blessing in disguise.

UberZagFan
01-14-2009, 01:57 PM
SMC = St. Mary's College of California (http://www.stmarys-ca.edu/). Nickname: Gaels.

SMU = Southern Methodist University (http://www.smu.edu/). Nickname: Mustangs.

St. Mary's University (http://www.stmarytx.edu/) is the oldest and the largest Catholic University in Texas and the Southwest. St. Mary's is a liberal arts institution. The Rattlers play in the Heartland Conference, a NCAA Division II school.

There is also a St. Mary's University (http://www.smumn.edu/) of Minnesota from the Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference. The Cardinals are a NCAA Division III school.

There is a St. Mary's College (http://www.smcm.edu/) in Maryland. The Seahawks play in the Capital Athletic Conference and are a NCAA Division III school.

There is a St. Mary's College in Notre Dame, Indiana that is an all-female institution.

The lesson will resume in the Foo . . .

:D

krozman
01-14-2009, 02:11 PM
Does the seeding really matter at this point? Any seed is a good seed. It doesn't matter, look at what has been done in the past with a high seed. IF they get in, I'm beginning to think a crappy seed my be a blessing in disguise.

It may not matter whether it's a 3, 4, 5, 6, or 7, but once you get into the 8, 9 area you're possibly running into a buzzsaw 1 seed, which either gives us an early exit or a clear path to the elite 8.

CanadianZagFan
01-14-2009, 02:16 PM
Don't forget about Saint Mary's University in Halifax Nova Scotia http://www.smu.ca/athletics/basketball-m-welcome.html Nickname: Huskies, they compete in the AUS division of the CIS (Canadian interuniversity sport)

Shanachie
01-14-2009, 02:41 PM
So, if BC deserved to be ranked, so does St. Mary's...

If you're looking for consistency in the polls, forget it. That being said though, the statement above is nonsense. BC beat the #1 team in the country, and on the road to boot. Like it or not, that is an accomplishment. Before the UNC game, BC wasn't ranked (and shouldn't have been) for the same reason Parish says St. Mary's shouldn't be ranked - that is, they may be good, but they haven't proven it yet by beating a top team.

As for the "obviously good" factor, I think you will always see some element of it in the polls, particularly early on. If you sat down to do rankings early in the season, you'd have to include it as well simply because of the schedules that some teams have played so far. You can discount that factor some (like Parish says he does), but you probably have to consider it in some way.

Zag79
01-14-2009, 06:15 PM
Patty Mills, no matter how talented he may be, or how many clutch shots he may nail, continues to be an inconsistent player. He's only shooting 41% from the floor. His assist to turnover ratio is only 1.1 to 1, and he's only averaging 3.4 assists per game. The much criticized Jeremy Pargo is shooting 47% from the floor, has a 2.2 to 1 assist to turnover ratio, and is averaging 6.4 assists per game.

and you would think from some posters on this board mills is overly amazing and pargo isnt. strange whenever stats are brought into the picture its much more different than the silly opinions of haters of certain players.


Mills is also a sophomore not a senior like Pargo is.

true, but hype knows no age or grade. mills has been talked up on this board so much by many of the same pargo haters but in reality pargo is much better this year than mills. as for st maries, they are good and have the talent but if the zags play there game we win.

MJGoGaels
01-14-2009, 08:59 PM
I'm just outraged about our rank in the AP, it's just terrible that the press would have a different view than the coaches. :lmao:

For the record, the Coaches #25.... I thought it was premature. So for Parrish and his followers the Gaels have 3 future opportunities to confirm or correct the public perception: 1) Beat Gonzaga. 2) Win the Bracket Buster against Butler or Illinois State, etc. on Feb. 21st at home. 3) Win the WCC Tourney. All of this assumes beating out the balance of the WCC foes who are gunning for the Gaels just like the Bulldogs.

LuvZags
01-14-2009, 09:59 PM
On one hand, I'd like to say the polls don't matter. If we are good enough to with the championship, then it doesn't really matter what seed we get, we should be good enough to beat everybody. But history still haunts me, and we have all seen what has happened when we have gone into the tourney ranked 10th. As a believer in this team, I hope that it doesn't matter what ranking we get. But, it is disappointing to me, to see us hover outside of the top 25, while watching teams that we have beaten, or could beat, continue to stick around. It is what it is, and to me it just doesn't make sense. At least I got the satisfaction of watching Bruce Pearl and his team go down in flames, and if they don't fall out after that loss, I will seriously start to question the polls. Then again, if we hadn't lossed 3 straight games, i don't suppose the polls would be an issue at this point.