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TacomaZAG
12-20-2008, 05:21 PM
Up by 11 with 10 minutes to go, can't close the deal........

Up by 4, with the ball, with 2.5 minutes to go, can't close the deal.......

Across half court with 5 seconds to go, one timeout left, don't use it and don't even get a shot off........

Excuse me, but I've seen this movie way too many times and I don't like the ending. People can rag on Pargo and Bouldin all they want, but this lack of crunch time game management is endemic to the program. It is a lack of scheme, not a failure of personnel. The personnel changes from year to year, but the lack of results are the same.

Elite teams close out this game, PERIOD......

We continually don't, so we can't consider ourselves an elite team.

I was at the game and the lack of scheme at crunch time was embarassing, especially the lack of a time out in the last 10 seconds to give us a chance to win. What the he!! was he saving the timeout for????? You can call a timeout from the bench, why didn't we??????

Why did we change scheme the last 10 minutes when we were up by 11 and pulling away???? Because we play "not to lose" instead of playing to win. How can we have absolutely no scheme for closing out the game in the last 2 and a half minutes?????? I can't answer that one, or even form an opinion other than I have seen this way too many times to chalk it up to coincidence.

We have the horses, we just need the jockey to figure out how to ride them.

No Way we should have lost that game, NO WAY.

NO EXCUSES..............

Go ZAGS

HillBillyZag
12-20-2008, 05:23 PM
Pretty much right on, not lack of skill or athleticism, just a "brain fart" or two at the worst posssible time.

Ezag
12-20-2008, 05:26 PM
Damn these "Brainfarts" are seeming all to common the past 5 years, maybe it's "a tumor" (say with Arnold Schwarzenegger voice)

I cannot blame 1 guy or 2, the whole team collapsed at the end and damn I wanted more Will Foster in there

surfmonkey89
12-20-2008, 05:35 PM
C1. When you lose in overtime there are literally a dozen things you can point to as the cause.

I'll throw mine in:
- How many layups did we miss?
- Pargo was playing on one leg
- terrible shot selection in the last ten minutes
- terrible management of their foul situations by the players. How many stupid fouls were there made by guys who already had 3, or even 4 already?

But those are just a few.

C2. I will say this though. I find it amazing that some players can be complete idiots on the court - bad shot selection, stupid fouls, terrible entry passes into the lane, brain farts on D, etc - yet not only are they defended, many people say they should be getting more playing time or leaving early for the NBA.

On the other hand, when something goes wrong everyone blames Pargo. Apparently winning is a team thing and losing is Pargo's fault. He sure was an idiot, being the only guy in one corner of the court while his teammates were 50ft away watching. What a moron, that guy.

Q1. Was ANY mention made about Pargo by the announcers? He was clearly playing on one leg the last 10 minutes or so. They pulled him at least twice to make him drink a ton of Gatorade and get a massage.

TacomaZAG
12-20-2008, 05:43 PM
but the guy with the "brainfart" has been "brainfarting" in close games against elite teams for the last 10 years.

No more excuses, FIX IT..........

It's not the refs, not the press, and not the players. It is the lack of any plan to CLOSE THE DEAL. The guys can't execute the plan when there is NO PLAN to execute.

It's like watching the Rocky movies, you know the ending 10 minutes before it actually ends.

This really sucks..............

Go ZAGS

alaskazagnut
12-20-2008, 05:49 PM
The way we were up. Then the way we slowed down to manage rather than keep drilling it to them. The way we had stupid turnovers to allow the opponent to make that one extra basket.

We lack the ability to keep the momentum on our side because IMO, we relax on our laurels and then we can't get the momentum back.

Welcome back Gorilla. We still haven't learned how to play "our game" for a full 40 minutes. We play down to our opponents. In a way we did it here too.

The big thing was fouls, we beat them in every other category. We fouled them too much.

krozman
12-20-2008, 05:55 PM
If this were a march tournament game it would be on par for the same epic collapse discussion. But alas, it's not, so lets give everyone but pargo a break (cause lets face it, with a lead you don't throw it 3/4 the way down the court to the defender when you could just call time out, like goodson did on the next offensive possession)

TacomaZAG
12-20-2008, 05:58 PM
good comments, my responses are as follows:

C1: The game never should have gone to OT, we should have closed it out in regulation.

C2: Agreed.....Add that if Pargo is on "one leg" as you correctly allude to, he shouldn't be in the game. Meech handles the point just fine. Coaches fault for having him in there if he is unable to perform, no matter how badly he wants to play. Also adding, Pargo get's trapped in the corner with everyone else 50 ft. away because there is no scheme to CLOSE THE DEAL. The guys don't know where to go because they aren't being told where to go. This is not a coincidence, as it happens pretty much every game in crunch time against elite competition.

Go ZAGS

MDABE80
12-20-2008, 06:07 PM
OK.shouldn't have gone to OT. 3 pts at the buzzer tied it up.

This is still early in the season and the kids are developing the team. Few's developing his strategies too. We lost one we should /could have won. Likewise with Ariz last week. We'll likely lose a few more ( I'm guessing 4 to 5). When we lose a game, it doesn't always mean we're worse or getting worse. It just means we need to improve.
In this specific game, a few things went wrong but a lot more went right.
In the end, we'll be there in the E8 or FF. I don't dout it. Lots of luck helps. Like the last second 3 pter to drive this into OT...lucky one.
We ran out of gas and ran out of players. It's not the end of things. Still have 2'3rds of the season to go and another 3 months. Buck up guys./..it'll get more interesting. We still have Utah, Tenn, Memphis to go . Then we go wipe out the leage. Just so we secure a 1 or 2 seed...then the season is fresh and new again.

VinnyZag
12-20-2008, 06:49 PM
Meech handles the point just fine.

Goodson is going to be a really, really fine player at GU. I'll be his biggest defender next year, as I have been Pargo's the last three.
But freshman-year Goodson is NOT ready to handle the point by himself. 75 percent of Pargo is still better, in my opinion, than 100 percent of 18-year-old Demetri Goodson. But watch out for Goodson next year.

I agree with the go Zags part, though.

zag67
12-20-2008, 07:13 PM
I agree with both Vinnie and MDA. I can understand being frustrated at some of the play, but you also have to look at what they did to even have the chance to win. They were almost blown out early, but as a team, they regrouped, came back and did some great things to get that lead. But yes they made errors and now have 3 months to work on the things that they have done wrong. I have to say that I keep seeing better and better ball movement and better decisions. But not always. Their ball handling has been getting better and except for a few mental errors, I thought that they played "30" minutes of super ball and 15 minutes of mediocre. Now they just need to get better consistency.

roxdoc
12-20-2008, 08:44 PM
TacomaZag, I once again agree with you completely.

First of all I was happily surprised how well we matched up with an obvious elite foe. Once we got rolling we were scrappy and fought back successfully.
I'm very proud of the Zags for that stretch. But then things changed. For whatever reason:

Our game plan changed - this is not the players, its the coaches choice of how to play. Calhoun made some changes in his plan, and we did not seem to have an answer. We have seen this seemingly implosion of intensity and purpose time and time again for a number of years and crossing a wide range of players.

Superimposed over this were several gross mistakes near the end of the game by a key player, any one of which might be pointed to as the final straw that broke the camel's back. People make mistakes, and that should be accepted as part of life. However, the repeated occurrence of similar mistakes at critical times against high level competition over several seasons is very troubling and should have been addressed before now by the coaching staff.

Bottom line: lots of season left, dance is where it's really decided, etc etc etc

Had a golden opportunity in our hand. What did we learn from this?

BigTymeONIONS
12-20-2008, 10:42 PM
Few needs to figure something out at the end of close games. I was at the game and it didn't even look like we were running an offense. Unless you count three man weave outside the three point line as an offense. Run some back screens or some motion. What ever happened to the flex offense we used to run religiously? At least that gets people moving around and screening, and you never know, there might be a miscommunication or something on defense that gives us a lay in. There isn't that opportunity when we stand outside the three point line with no one moving.

Another problem is the lack of a consistent rotation. Against Arizona, Micah played only 15 minutes and today Ira only played 6 which includes the 4 he played in overtime only because of foul outs. I don't understand. We got killed on the boards today, Ira is a great rebounder. We had 3 people foul out, Ira could have given them a spell and contributed some fouls instead of Austin, Josh, Bouldin, and Downs playing in foul trouble. Does he forget that these guys are there once he pulls them out? I doubt it but I just don't have any other explanation.

I'm not blaming Few because I think he's a great coach but he has not been great down the stretch when we need the coaching. What happened out of pretty much every timeout Calhoun called? An easy bucket or at least an open shot. Calhoun is a hall of famer of course so it's a little unfair to compare the two but I think Few can do better.

JLGutrocks
12-20-2008, 11:11 PM
Few needs to figure something out at the end of close games. I was at the game and it didn't even look like we were running an offense. Unless you count three man weave outside the three point line as an offense. Run some back screens or some motion. What ever happened to the flex offense we used to run religiously? At least that gets people moving around and screening, and you never know, there might be a miscommunication or something on defense that gives us a lay in. There isn't that opportunity when we stand outside the three point line with no one moving.

Another problem is the lack of a consistent rotation. Against Arizona, Micah played only 15 minutes and today Ira only played 6 which includes the 4 he played in overtime only because of foul outs. I don't understand. We got killed on the boards today, Ira is a great rebounder. We had 3 people foul out, Ira could have given them a spell and contributed some fouls instead of Austin, Josh, Bouldin, and Downs playing in foul trouble. Does he forget that these guys are there once he pulls them out? I doubt it but I just don't have any other explanation.

I'm not blaming Few because I think he's a great coach but he has not been great down the stretch when we need the coaching. What happened out of pretty much every timeout Calhoun called? An easy bucket or at least an open shot. Calhoun is a hall of famer of course so it's a little unfair to compare the two but I think Few can do better.

Few coaches against anyone/anywhere. And you know what? He's 80 %. There are 2 coaches anywhere in history that can hang their head that high. So, if you can do that...Please submit your resume...otherwise...STFU.

http://http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m180/JLGutrocks/Poop4-1.gif

Birddog
12-21-2008, 03:35 AM
Few coaches against anyone/anywhere. And you know what? He's 80 %. There are 2 coaches anywhere in history that can hang their head that high. So, if you can do that...Please submit your resume...otherwise...STFU.
Just for the record, according to the TV graphic yesterday, Few was 18 and 25 vs ranked opponent. Make that 18 and 26 now. That's a little over 40%.

BJZags
12-21-2008, 05:23 AM
Just for the record, according to the TV graphic yesterday, Few was 18 and 25 vs ranked opponent. Make that 18 and 26 now. That's a little over 40%.

Finally, someone gets the the real heart of the matter. With Few's record, I figured we had a better percentage against the top-25. Might show a bit about our "elite status." But it has only been recently we have had "elite" talent, so hopefully those numbers will adjust upward in the near future.

TacomaZAG
12-21-2008, 05:44 AM
that is how the success of the season will be judged. We have played three games this year so far with a "March Madness" feel (Tenn., AZ, UConn) against "March Madness" opposition, and we are 1-2.

That is NOT GOOD ENOUGH, with the talent we have. The record against ranked teams alluded to earlier in this thread is very telling, especially if we want to be part of the discussion about "elite" teams.

There are still two or three games left this year that may present an opportunity to fix the problem of game management against "elite" opposition at a neutral or road site (Memphis, Tenn., at St. Mary's) although the Memphis game this year is hardly a neutral site.

We CAN fix it, we MUST fix it if we are going to go to the E8 or FF. That is our challenge (IMHO) for the rest of the year.

Go ZAGS

bballbeachbum
12-21-2008, 09:12 AM
Hmmm, I don't know, and no offense to anyone here. I know I'm new to this board.

Our play on that possession at the end of regulation was good. Price threw up a prayer, it was answered. Pargo played him great, made him chuck up an awkward shot. It went in. But come on, UConn was a mess on that last possession because of our D. It hurts that they made that darn shot.

And Pargo was smart afterwards. He drove the length of the floor, took it right to the rim. Does anyone think a timeout would have gotten us a better look? We would have drawn up a play to get Jeremy the ball so he could drive...which is what happened. I thought he was going to finish for the win as I watched, I really did.

And that's the plan at the end of the game: get Jeremy in position to create and put pressure on the defense. I'll take Jeremy going hard to the rim in that situation any time, any time. Sorry, but blaming Few or Pargo just sounds sour to me. I do share with all of you that crappy feeling inside my stomach today, though.

I mean really, do you think that UConn possession was what Calhoun wanted? That was his plan? No way. We D'd them up great on that last possession of regulation, but Price came up big. It hurts.

Circle the wagons, I say, and put the fingers away. It's December.


It still took a crazy shot by the #2 team in the country to beat us.

And Few's record against ranked opponents only reveals his willingness to play the best anywhere...that's how we've gotten where we are today! I can't believe the rotten tomatoes some are throwing at him.

BigTymeONIONS
12-21-2008, 10:49 AM
Few coaches against anyone/anywhere. And you know what? He's 80 %. There are 2 coaches anywhere in history that can hang their head that high. So, if you can do that...Please submit your resume...otherwise...STFU.

http://http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m180/JLGutrocks/Poop4-1.gif

Yeah he has an 80% winning percentage with 80% of those wins coming against the WCC teams that he doesn't have to do anything against except roll the ball out and let the guys play. I think Few is a great coach, I said that in my original post, but that doesn't discount the fact that he is 18-26 against top 25 teams. I'm just saying there is much room for improvement down the stretch of games when we have the lead. I'm not saying I could do any better, I was just throwing some ideas out there that IMO would work better than what we do now.

cggonzaga
12-21-2008, 12:34 PM
Can't even tell you how many people agree with your comments Tacoma! Spot on.


Few coaches against anyone/anywhere. And you know what? He's 80 %. There are 2 coaches anywhere in history that can hang their head that high. So, if you can do that...Please submit your resume...otherwise...

This argument needs to stop. It's not a good one. Mark Few is a great recruiter, great talent evaluator and improves his players better than anyone in the country. Mark Few is a very good game coach but not elite yet. In the past 10 years he constantly gets outcoached by the games elites. Once he makes this jump the program will truly be one of the country's top 5.

TacomaZAG
12-21-2008, 02:37 PM
and this is where it hurts that we don't get tested every game in the WCC, as the only way to get to the elite level is to continually pay your dues (gain the right type of experience) against the elite teams. As BTO rightly observes, most of the games in the WCC are over before we take the floor as our athletic advantage is overwhelming. This is great for our winning percentage but does nothing to prepare us for the Tourney.

The only way to become an elite team is to continue to put ourselves in situations like against Tenn, AZ, and UConn. Unfortunately, the learning curve against elite competition is not very steep for us, as we are only able to play 4-5 of those games a year, with most of them in December when the season is very young.

That's the reality of our situation, IMHO. These growinig pains are excrutiating for everyone, (players, coaches, and fans). We are almost there, and this last step to elite status is the hardest, as the margin for error is smallest.

The physical mistakes will always be there, but we must minimize the mental mistakes by the players and VIRTUALLY ELIMINATE the preparation miscues and ability to adjust a game plan on the fly.

We have the personnel in place, both on the floor and on the bench. It's just that the growing pains hurt so much, especially when we are so close.

Go ZAGS

roxdoc
12-21-2008, 02:57 PM
bbbeach bum - I think you are missing the point...I have not heard anyone faulting Pargo for his defense of Price on his shot to tie the game in regulation. In fact his defense has not been discussed.

BobZag
12-21-2008, 05:24 PM
that is how the success of the season will be judged. We have played three games this year so far with a "March Madness" feel (Tenn., AZ, UConn) against "March Madness" opposition, and we are 1-2.

That is NOT GOOD ENOUGH, with the talent we have. The record against ranked teams alluded to earlier in this thread is very telling, especially if we want to be part of the discussion about "elite" teams.

There are still two or three games left this year that may present an opportunity to fix the problem of game management against "elite" opposition at a neutral or road site (Memphis, Tenn., at St. Mary's) although the Memphis game this year is hardly a neutral site.

We CAN fix it, we MUST fix it if we are going to go to the E8 or FF. That is our challenge (IMHO) for the rest of the year.

Go ZAGS

I'd add Maryland, but I can't disagree with anything you say. I'm not sure about "elite." Zags are close, but I'll go with what Calhoun said, that GU is a "major-major program..." Zags have played UConn four times. Uconn has won by margins of 5, 2 and now 5 again. Zags won by 3 last year. UConn is arguably the best team/program in the east. (UNC/Duke are more South)

I'm optimistic about fixing what needs fixing. It has to be done, or else...

IrishZag
12-21-2008, 06:31 PM
...
That is NOT GOOD ENOUGH, with the talent we have. The record against ranked teams alluded to earlier in this thread is very telling, especially if we want to be part of the discussion about "elite" teams.
...
We CAN fix it, we MUST fix it if we are going to go to the E8 or FF. That is our challenge (IMHO) for the rest of the year.

Go ZAGS

TacomaZag: I hear you. These two recent losses are very disappointing. Combined with refreshed memories of a few early tournament exits and it is enough to raise any Zag fan's blood pressure.

But honestly, you're calling for Few's head because of a couple close losses to "elite" programs? Close losses to good teams in the pre-season is not grounds for firing even among "elite" programs.

In fact, what separates almost all of the elite programs of college basketball is consistency of great coaching. The success of Duke, Florida, UConn, Kansas, UCLA, Arizona, Syracuse, and MSU, can all be attributed to great tenured coaches. Those programs experienced a lot of the same growing pains you referred to, but their patience allowed them to get over the hump.

It's frightening territory calling for coaches heads. Just ask Kentucky, Indiana, and Notre Dame (in football). If historically elite programs with unlimited resources are struggling to maintain. How the hell do you think we are gonna fare? As great of a story Gonzaga is, I don't think you can call us a top tier coaching position. Relative to other top programs we don't pay great, we have a terrible location, we play in a bad conference, and we have mediocre facilities.

We are incredibly fortunate to have stumbled upon a coach who has embraced those challenges and turned them into competitive advantages. You can argue that Few is responsible for poor game management against top level competition. But who are you going to bring to Gonzaga that is going to do better while maintaining top tier recruiting, scheduling, and in conference performance? Not to mention the fact, that Few runs an ethical program that generally has lived up to the mission of the University.

I know that we all want to get to the status where we consistently beat top level competition. But those same factors that prevent us from being elite on the court, are the same factors that prevent us from landing and keeping an no elite coach better than Few. Calling for Few's head is a dangerous
game and could lead us down the road of other small schools that have fallen by the wayside (see San Francisco, Seattle, and LMU).

Go Zags. Take these experiences learn from them and grow as a team.

P.S. Coach K addressed the less than 10 seconds on the clock with a tie game or down by one scenario in his book. Assuming his point guard or star player has the ball and is dribbling down the court he generally doesn't call the timeout. Then again Pargo isn't Bobby Hurley, especially with a bum leg.

fedwayzag
12-21-2008, 08:12 PM
P.S. Coach K addressed the less than 10 seconds on the clock with a tie game or down by one scenario in his book. Assuming his point guard or star player has the ball and is dribbling down the court he generally doesn't call the timeout. Then again Pargo isn't Bobby Hurley, especially with a bum leg.

Sorry do not know how to do the quote thingy.

I agree with not calling a timeout. You do coach the end game situation in practice and while it did not work out yesterday, I believe it was the right thing to do. If you call time out, the defense has a chance to get setup. We made a scamble out of it and it just did not work out.

cggonzaga
12-21-2008, 08:59 PM
But honestly, you're calling for Few's head because of a couple close losses to "elite" programs? Close losses to good teams in the pre-season is not grounds for firing even among "elite" programs.

Irish,

I have yet to read where Tacoma asked for Few's head and he's mostly referring to losses in the tournament the past 4 seasons. This one burned because it was similar to the UCLA game a few years back when we shouldn't have come close to losing the game.


In fact, what separates almost all of the elite programs of college basketball is consistency of great coaching. The success of Duke, Florida, UConn, Kansas, UCLA, Arizona, Syracuse, and MSU, can all be attributed to great tenured coaches. Those programs experienced a lot of the same growing pains you referred to, but their patience allowed them to get over the hump.

You don't consider 10 years with the same coach enough time to "get over the hump"? He has been a great coach, it's now time to move into the elite status. With the depth, experience and talent we have this year it's time for coach to cement himself with the game's elites.


If historically elite programs with unlimited resources are struggling to maintain. How the hell do you think we are gonna fare? As great of a story Gonzaga is, I don't think you can call us a top tier coaching position. Relative to other top programs we don't pay great, we have a terrible location, we play in a bad conference, and we have mediocre facilities.


My guess is you haven't seen the school recently? The facilities are fantastic. From the weight room to the arena to all the upgrades made around campus, the school is grade A. If you're a basketball player looking for limited distractions then the location is perfect for you. The conference isn't BCS but it is one of the top mid major conferences and it appears to be on the rise with recent recruiting and great coach hirings. Finally, coach Few makes well over a million dollars in an area that is equivalent to 3-4 million in more well populated areas.


We are incredibly fortunate to have stumbled upon a coach who has embraced those challenges and turned them into competitive advantages. You can argue that Few is responsible for poor game management against top level competition. But who are you going to bring to Gonzaga that is going to do better while maintaining top tier recruiting, scheduling, and in conference performance? Not to mention the fact, that Few runs an ethical program that generally has lived up to the mission of the University.



Again, I don't believe Tacoma or many others are calling for Few's head. We just want him and the program to take that next step. Personally I believe it will happen this year. This is one of the best teams in the country and I think they'll show that come March.

montanazag88
12-21-2008, 09:31 PM
Expectations need to rise. Well done, CG. Support for Few/THE PROGRAM come in all forms - financial among them. Contributions of all kinds only increase when everyone wants to succeed. If I have read the "respectfully honest" criticisms accurately, that doesn't mean a "W" is mandatory every game. Rather, it is how we lose games that makes all the difference to supporters. True fans of the game want winning actions from players, coaches and staff. The W-L column will naturally fall into place, but the "pride" in the program will follow heroic (mostly selfless) effort. All support in the world to a remarkable coach and his staff to help lead these exceptional talents in that direction.

former1dog
12-22-2008, 07:05 AM
I am agreement that Mark Few needs to improve his management of late game leads over top teams. This game, though, points to another problem for Mark Few. Trust.

Few needed to trust Will Foster and Ira Brown more earlier in the 2nd half. If he would have trusted them, they could have provided just a few minutes of relief for Heytvelt, Daye and Downs. Those extra minutes could have possibly saved Heytvelt from his 4th foul, allowing him to play a bit more aggressively and Daye and Downs from fouling out.

We'll never know, but in my opinion WILL FOSTER could have won the UCONN game for Gonzaga by simply playing a couple of minutes in the 2nd half and spelling Heytvelt or Daye and preventing a couple of fouls on those players.

cggonzaga
12-22-2008, 08:09 AM
Couldn't agree with you more Former. Foster played very well in the limited minutes he was in the game. Few also did this with Downs in the Arizona game. Trust your athletes. This also goes for strategy. Yes the zone worked well for most of the 2nd half but why not mix it up more with the man. It was great in the first half and we stayed in the zone way too long in the 2nd. Again, TRUST YOUR ATHLETES!!!

vandalzag
12-22-2008, 08:45 AM
For all that think the coach Few should have played Will and Ira more and that he does not trust his players.....How many practices have you attended? How has Foster done in the offensive sets? I am sure that if the coaching staff thought the Will was an effective player he would be playing, since the natural advantage of being 7' plus would probably help the team win. It is very difficult to logically second guess the staff when I am not at practice every day. Having conversed with the entire staff (at various camps, functions,etc...) in the past, I am pretty sure that their intention is to win the game. They most likely would not hold a player back if he would help them win. But you never know, maybe it is a plot to ruin the days/nights of Zag fans everywhere. I just hope that when the staff checks in on this site they start taking notes of all the great suggestions. I would think that coach Krause will be crediting Tacomazag,Irishzag, et al for all of their sage advice on coaching. The absurdity of these post is that people are taking shots at players/coaches when for the most part their experience in the sport comes from watching a game on the TV/stands, and at best maybe having played some grade school basketball. I have coached youth sports for 20 years and I my knowledge is minimal at best compared to the staff. Just because I watch ER and House does not mean I will be offering tips to my local neurologists on his next brain transplant.

TacomaZAG
12-22-2008, 08:46 AM
In no way, shape, or form am I calling for Coach Few's head. What he has done at GU is nothing short of miraculous (just look how many other programs our size have done it.....none). What I am saying is that everyone in the program (coaches, players, and fans too) need to continue to improve and refine their skill sets if we want to be in the "elite" program discussion. We may never get there, but it should not be from lack of continually trying to improve, or being satisfied with our current success. I don't think we are stuck or not trying with everything we have, it's just that the final step is SO HARD.

To use a golf metaphor, you need to "throw up on yourself" a few times before you get over the hump and finally make that winning putt. You can only learn by putting yourself in the situation over and over and over. As an example, did you think Tiger was going to miss that putt on #18 at the US Open last year to force a playoff?? All his years of preparation before that moment allowed to him to clear his head, not be caught up in the moment, and focus so intently on that one thing. Now, I'm not saying we are Tiger or anything like that, just trying to use an example of the clarity of thought and incredible preparation over many years that is needed to even have a real chance of making the putt.

I think we are almost there, and we may get there (FF) this year. We have the personnel we need, both players and coaches, to get there. It's just that the margin for error is so small. Also, as difficult as it is for any program to get there, it is even more difficult for us because of our conference and necessity of scheduling our "learning games" so early in the season.

Good comments on this thread.........

Go ZAGS

former1dog
12-22-2008, 08:51 AM
Vandalzag,

I appreciate your post and mostly agree that us "little people on the internet" should defer to the expertise of the coaching staff.

BUT, no one (save God himself) is infallible. Mark Few isn't God, but I'm glad he's our coach. That said, I think he made some correctable mistakes that could have turned the tide in our favor against UCONN. My opinion, like yours, is based on my informed observation.

Have a good day and Merry Christmas to you!

gozags09
12-22-2008, 08:57 AM
Everyone made mistakes Saturday during the last 16 minutes of game time. It wasn't just JP or Few...everyone. Few is the best fit that this program could ever hope for. It has been a mutually beneficial marriage for both the program and Few. Let us not forget that Calhoun is one of the game's greats...and UCONN is a final 4 contender more years than not during the last decade.

We will bounce back. Port State will be no pushover, and this has been a grueling schedule. In the end, I think that we will be better because of it. There aren't too many teams (2 or 3?) that could have come through this schedule and travel with a better record than 8-2.

GO ZAGS!

Pargo the Destroyer
12-22-2008, 09:08 AM
Oh. Im not gonna get involved in all this talk, I will just say this, I am thoroughly enjoying this season so far. Does it suck we lost to Uconn, when we should have won? yes it does. Did it suck when we lost to Az? yes. A litttle more than 2 weeks ago most of you were runinng around drunk on the koolaid after we took the OSC. Now look where your at. Sober and pissed.

Here is the point, NONE OF YOU could coach better. NONE OF YOU could play better. Bottom line. Lets put this loss into perspective, realize that the boys know now what they could have done better, or at least will know when film gets broken down and improvements will be made.

I absolutely cannot stand UCONN and hope they lose every game from here on out. But give them props, they TOOK the game from us, and as bad a taste its left in our mouths, I guarantee its a million times worse in our teams mouths. I have a feeling Portland State is going to feel the brunt of our ire.

gozags09
12-22-2008, 09:19 AM
Here is the point, NONE OF YOU could coach better. NONE OF YOU could play better. Bottom line. Lets put this loss into perspective, realize that the boys know now what they could have done better, or at least will know when film gets broken down and improvements will be made.




Amen brother!

former1dog
12-22-2008, 09:23 AM
Here is the point, NONE OF YOU could coach better. NONE OF YOU could play better. Bottom line. Lets put this loss into perspective, realize that the boys know now what they could have done better, or at least will know when film gets broken down and improvements will be made.

You've never seen my cross over. ;)

Pargo the Destroyer
12-22-2008, 09:39 AM
You've never seen my cross over.

Ive got a wicked J myself, however 5' 10" with no hops, no speed is not gonna cut it..............haha

TacomaZAG
12-22-2008, 09:41 AM
No argument here, and I don't think anyone on this thread is pissed. It's just that a lot of us live and die with the team (at least as much as you can from the stands or in front of the TV).

For me, this board is a great way to celebrate a win like the OSC and vent after a loss like UConn. As has been said earlier, blame is pointless, but some intelligent discussion is warranted, and helpful, after a tough loss, especially to be able to let it go.

I don't know about you, but the two biggest fans of this board in my family after a tough loss are my wife and my dog.

Go ZAGS

Reborn
12-22-2008, 09:48 AM
Mark Few is a great coach. He coached a very good game in my opinion. Is Few responsible for the loss? Of course. He is the Head of the team. Mark Few will take full responsibility for the loss, and do what he thinks is necessary.

UCONN made as many mistakes as Gonzaga did, minus one. Losing by one shot is not the end of the world. Did the Zags make huge plays. Of course they did. Austin Daye hit the huge shot he needed to make, and that play would be as wildly discussed as Price's is if we had won. And then he steals the inbounds pass after that, and it appears the game is over. Maybe that's the one mistake we made....thinking it was over. A game is NEVER OVER until that final horms blows. Matt's two made free throws were huge and was the big play we needed.

Did UCONN make big mistakes. Of course. That inbounds pass that Austin stole was Huge. Thabeet mouthing off to Josh was a huge mistake. You can say that it was a pathetic call by the ref, but it was a bigger mistake for Thabeen to say anything to Josh at all. Not in a game like this one.

This was a great game by two great teams, great players and great coaches. This argument about Few not being one of the best coaches in the country is purely irrational, idiotic, and arises only out of anger and resentment from some fans. Any argument that indicates Few did a bad job is purely irrational. Some of you guys really need to go and take a good look in the mirror. Your criticisms taint this game. It was a great game. A classic. Does the Fact that Gonzaga lost it make it a worse game. NOT at all. My opinion is that the loss benefits Gonzaga more than the win benefits UCONN.

I think the two teams that played Saturday are two of the best teams in the country. That game helped both teams a lot. We both know we can play with the best. One team won by the thinnest of margins. I think there is a fair chance that these two teams could meet again in March. If they do meet again, I believe the advantage will go to the Zags.

Pargo the Destroyer
12-22-2008, 09:53 AM
No argument here, and I don't think anyone on this thread is pissed. It's just that a lot of us live and die with the team (at least as much as you can from the stands or in front of the TV).

For me, this board is a great way to celebrate a win like the OSC and vent after a loss like UConn. As has been said earlier, blame is pointless, but some intelligent discussion is warranted, and helpful, after a tough loss, especially to be able to let it go.

I don't know about you, but the two biggest fans of this board in my family after a tough loss are my wife and my dog.

Go ZAGS


Its all good bro, were all here for the same reason, we love the team, the guys etc etc. I am tied just as much as the next guy, emotionally and financially.........season tics aint cheap.... neither is all the gear we buy

I dont mind the venting it just grates on me when people go overboard and call for heads, and generally post when they are emotional about the game. The other thing I want to point out too is that its is JUST A GAME. We, me included invest more into it and thats why it kills us when we lose, especially the way we did on saturday. Regardless, Im excited for the rest of our season, some big things are in our future.

B Wayne
12-22-2008, 10:07 AM
Alot of people are critical of Pargo's game decisions at point guard. He certainly had problems in the second half against UConn

I understand the NBA draft people said Pargo needs to work on his decision making with the ball.

Other people (this thread) have questioned the Zags game managment, especially after the UConn loss.

Does anyone see the irony that Mark Few's workout partner is the greatest pure point guard in basketball history?

Wilt Chamberlain said he would choose John Stockton as his first pick if he were building a team. John Wooden said Stockton is the only player he'd pay to watch play. I believe Deron Williams (Utah Jazz guard) made a trip to Spokane two summers ago to get some lessons from the master. When the Dream Teams (92 and 96) needed orchestration, it was John Stockton at the helm to steady the ship.

Can anyone think of a player in basketball history that was a better game manager than the guy down the block from the Kennel?

I can just imagine John Stockton's thoughts watching the UConn game.

Does anyone know to what extent (if any) Coach Few has JS working with Jeremy Pargo, or the team in general? If nothing else, Coach Few can talk directly to Stockton about any ideas he (JS) might have, which I would think is invaluable.

IrishZag
12-23-2008, 01:05 PM
In no way, shape, or form am I calling for Coach Few's head. What he has done at GU is nothing short of miraculous (just look how many other programs our size have done it.....none). What I am saying is that everyone in the program (coaches, players, and fans too) need to continue to improve and refine their skill sets if we want to be in the "elite" program discussion. We may never get there, but it should not be from lack of continually trying to improve, or being satisfied with our current success. I don't think we are stuck or not trying with everything we have, it's just that the final step is SO HARD.

To use a golf metaphor, you need to "throw up on yourself" a few times before you get over the hump and finally make that winning putt. You can only learn by putting yourself in the situation over and over and over. As an example, did you think Tiger was going to miss that putt on #18 at the US Open last year to force a playoff?? All his years of preparation before that moment allowed to him to clear his head, not be caught up in the moment, and focus so intently on that one thing. Now, I'm not saying we are Tiger or anything like that, just trying to use an example of the clarity of thought and incredible preparation over many years that is needed to even have a real chance of making the putt.

I think we are almost there, and we may get there (FF) this year. We have the personnel we need, both players and coaches, to get there. It's just that the margin for error is so small. Also, as difficult as it is for any program to get there, it is even more difficult for us because of our conference and necessity of scheduling our "learning games" so early in the season.

Good comments on this thread.........

Go ZAGS

Tacoma, I apologize for misinterpretation. But when you combine the tone of your posts with these euphemisms; "We have the Horses, the Jockey just needs to figure out how to ride them... The same brainfarts happening for the last 10 years, and NO EXCUSES... FIX IT. " I think a rational man can understand why the misinterpretation happened.

Do you honestly believe that ranting on a message board that someone must improve is an effective way to get them to improve? It is a mentality like that, that drives Few and other college coaches mad that message boards exist.

The fact is that competitive and driven people like the ones that make up our basketball program, are dedicated to improve their methods on a daily basis. They won't always be perfect in the moment, but I can bet you they are doing just about everything within their power to make sure they will be next time. The coaches and players have made their goals pretty clear. Every action that this program takes from recruiting all the way to scheduling indicates they are doing what they believe it takes to reach those goals.

I understand that you want to vent after a loss, but next time you should reach for a can of Coors Light instead of posing your rants as something positive for the team.

BigTymeONIONS
12-23-2008, 03:36 PM
Do you honestly believe that ranting on a message board that someone must improve is an effective way to get them to improve?

Hopefully no one on this board thinks that. The fact is, no one on this message board has the control to change anything really. Outside of not buying tickets and gear (which the next guy in line will do anyway) there is nothing that any of us can do. That is the point of the message board. People can talk about the games, the team, and the players and as it has been suggested before, vent their frustrations. The fact is that none of this matters and nothing will ever change because of what is said here.