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View Full Version : My take on todays game....



hoopster777
12-06-2008, 11:47 AM
I said earlier this week that Gonzaga could play its worse game of the season and still win by 10+ points....exactly what happened today. Way too many turnovers, shot not falling from the outside, but Gonzaga was relentless down low.

Daye played a solid game, but its really starting to bother me that when he is wide open from the outside, he prefers to shoot from the 3 point line rather than drive it to the hoop. He can't be a 3 point shooter first, he should really only be taking 1-2 shots from the outside and only going outside to free up Josh down low (or when Bouldin shoots from the low post).

All together, good effort, a similar style of play that Gonzaga will see against Wazzu (slow basketball, only Indiana showed its youth today). I'm sure Few isn't happy with Pargo's sportscenter highlight dunk at the end, but definitely one of his most impressive moments.

former1dog
12-06-2008, 11:59 AM
In my opinion, that was actually a very solidly played game by Gonzaga. Especially on defense. The fact that we had a bad shooting game from the 3 pt. line in an unusual venue does not, imo, take away from the solid effort.

I disagree with your point on Austin Daye. If he is wide open for a 3 pt. shot I hope he takes the shot every single time with the possible exception of throwing an interior pass to a wide open defender. Austin is an exceptional shooter and he should take the wide open shot.

I am now convinced that Austin is at no better than 85% coming off his knee injury. He is seriously 2 steps slower than he was last season.

Credit to Tom Crean and his players. They played extremely hard and should be commended for their effort.

JohnOGU
12-06-2008, 12:12 PM
I agree, it wasnt a bad win, all things considered. Wish josh wuld be more aggressive defensvely, rather than flopping. Also, ive become used to the fact that almost every team we play plays out of their minds in some facet of their game. today, it was indiana with 3-point shooting. They arent that good of a 3 shooting team.

FuManShoes
12-06-2008, 12:20 PM
Not sure the team can shoot much worse than that, and thank god that effort came against a really inferior opponent. But ... the defensive intensity and half-time adjustments were very good. The Zags clearly focused on getting to the hoop in the second half and kept the Hoosiers scoreless for a good 5 minutes. It was troublesome to see the threes given up later in the game, but several of those were desperation heaves by the Hoosiers. All and all I think the Zags gutted out an ugly win and played some beautiful, stifling, get-that-s&*t out of here defense that's becoming a hallmark of this team. They just better work on shooting in a cavernous stadium in preparation for Detroit :)

johnwzag
12-06-2008, 12:26 PM
I disagree with your point on Austin Daye. If he is wide open for a 3 pt. shot I hope he takes the shot every single time with the possible exception of throwing an interior pass to a wide open defender. Austin is an exceptional shooter and he should take the wide open shot.

He was 3-13 0-6. He does that against wsu or uconn and were dead. Steven and Micah know when to quit shooting from out there. That is not an exceptional shooting, it is not even good shooting. Just plain dumb selfishness. Good shooters have bad days true. When you have 5 other guys that can put it in the basket (three others today as bad as it was), good shooters pass the ball and play defense. He made excellent blocks and played great defense. He screwed up on offense as far as I am concerned. Selfishness. Austin aint no Ammo and he aint no star this year so far. I think his head is bigger than his basketball.

I know, I know, I am going to get neg rep. Oh well. Austin is immature. He has a lot of potential. Glad to have him one more year. He will be much better next year. Next year he may be an Ammo. He is not this year.

CDC84
12-06-2008, 12:33 PM
Few said the team practiced horribly on Friday, and he was fearful that an effort would take place like we witnessed today. They just didn't have a good approach from the moment they got to Indy.

The Zags have got to understand that when they enjoy a major size and talent advantage over just about every opposing player on the floor, they need to drive the ball and feed it down low. I couldn't understand for the life of me why the Zags felt compelled to launch 15+ three pointers when they knew they were in a terrible long range shooting environment. They needed to focus more on high percentage shots.

It looks as though GU only coughed up 14 turnovers. It sure seemed like they had more.

The defense was strong. They held IU to 30% shooting from the field. They did give up some open looks from 3 ball land in the 2nd half, but the Hoosiers also nailed a few miracle shots like that 30 footer with the shot clock expiring.

The Zags are bound to play better and give a better effort against Wazzu on Wednesday night, but I was hoping that they could've kept the machine sharp today. The machine needs some maintenance to get back to where it was after the Tennessee game. Other than that, I don't really take away any major concerns from today's game. They just needed to get through it.

MDABE80
12-06-2008, 12:53 PM
Problem list.
1. Big big stadium ( terrible long distance shooting but good close in shooting)
2. Eastern time zone last week, home for 4 days and then back to Eastern time zone (Indianapolis is Eastern time).
3. IU lightly regarded
4. Bad shot selection
5. Average defense


Solution list:
1. Keep the kids rested and closer to West Coast time.
2. Never take an opponent lightly.especially a D1 opponent with history .....and at home (essentially).
3. Stay out of the football stadiums even when they're reduced in size.
4. Rededicate to better defense....not so much hand slaps....use the feet.

Everything rlse will fall into place. Now, let's be thinking of WSU and AU. The IU game is best left in the dust. Good to be 6-0 now. I really like this team! I love Austin. He's got some sophomore-itis. He'll be fine. Josh did a good job..looked tired after the first half.

All the problems we saw today completely are reversible. That's the best news of all.

jazzdelmar
12-06-2008, 12:57 PM
In my opinion, that was actually a very solidly played game by Gonzaga. Especially on defense. The fact that we had a bad shooting game from the 3 pt. line in an unusual venue does not, imo, take away from the solid effort.

I disagree with your point on Austin Daye. If he is wide open for a 3 pt. shot I hope he takes the shot every single time with the possible exception of throwing an interior pass to a wide open defender. Austin is an exceptional shooter and he should take the wide open shot.

I am now convinced that Austin is at no better than 85% coming off his knee injury. He is seriously 2 steps slower than he was last season.

Credit to Tom Crean and his players. They played extremely hard and should be commended for their effort.


F1Doggie---What game did u watch? They stunk it up, save for Josh and Sacre...Matt's volley of pts at the end were agst Indy's THIRD team...guys with broken noses and horn rims.....PLEEEEEZ, ur a better fan than that..As for Few chiding Pgo, what standing does he have to do that; he allowed Pgo to jump over a teammate in a preseason pregame dunk contest...Gotta be his worst decision of late...

GoZags
12-06-2008, 01:00 PM
..As for Few chiding Pgo, what standing does he have to do that; he allowed Pgo to jump over a teammate in a preseason pregame dunk contest...Gotta be his worst decision of late...

You're so right. Let's run him out of town.

jazzdelmar
12-06-2008, 01:01 PM
You're so right. Let's run him out of town.

thats a silly inference....just making the pt that discipline starts at home.

GoZags
12-06-2008, 01:09 PM
thats a silly inference....just making the pt that discipline starts at home.

Great point.

This Gonzaga program is known for their lack of discipline. I'm glad you're around to point out this (and all of their other) glaring weaknesses.

ZaggyStardust
12-06-2008, 01:15 PM
Well, all I have to say is I LOVE THIS TEAM!!!!

Last years team, would have lost this game... And I think this game will help prepare us better for the slugfest in Pullman, which BTW, I expect to ALSO win!!!!

jazzdelmar
12-06-2008, 01:21 PM
Great point.

This Gonzaga program is known for their lack of discipline. I'm glad you're around to point out this (and all of their other) glaring weaknesses.


Sigh? I give up....

surfmonkey89
12-06-2008, 01:25 PM
Looking at the box score our shooting %age wasn't actually that bad save one glaring stat:

Austin Daye, F, 3-13, 0-6 3pt

At one point the feed we were watching froze on the screen, and it had Josh wide open in the post with his hand up and Austin outside the 3-line with the ball. Bong said "Get it to Josh, he's right there, I can see him! Of course, why give it to the open guy down low when you throw up a three."

And that's exactly what happened. Clank.

The guy needs to realize that when he doesn't have it going there are half a dozen other guys that can pick up the slack. So far he's been shoot first, anything else later.

gum797
12-06-2008, 01:28 PM
Considering the open atmosphere of a football stadium, the fact we play the cougs on Wed, and they are college kids ranging 18-23 years old (besides Ira), it is just natural to overlook some teams. These kids are not professionals yet, so yes they will lay an egg sometimes. But the fact of the matter is we probably would have lost that game in the past. This GU team stayed composed and worked hard on the defensive end and guess what...they won. no matter what, an ugly win is still a win.

23dpg
12-06-2008, 01:43 PM
Sigh? I give up....

No you don't. Glad to have your sunshine back on the boards.

I think some posters, including myself, get on your posts because they are all in the same vein. I can't remember anything positive you've ever written on this board. That may discount some of your very valid criticisms.

Just my two cents.

surfmonkey89
12-06-2008, 01:49 PM
The fact that we're playing in a football stadium is the very reason we should be frustrated with taking that many 3pt shots.

The regionals and the FF - should we be so fortunate - are both played in football stadiums this year, so we should get used to the lousy shooting environment now and feed the big men down low. The more we do it now the more it will be second nature in March.

Look, I realize we just beat a Big10 team by 16. I love this team. But there's always room to improve, and this is the most glaring example.

johnwzag
12-06-2008, 01:52 PM
Well, all I have to say is I LOVE THIS TEAM!!!!

Last years team, would have lost this game... And I think this game will help prepare us better for the slugfest in Pullman, which BTW, I expect to ALSO win!!!!

The man says I cannot rep for 24 hours. You deserve a positive response for this. Well said!

former1dog
12-06-2008, 01:58 PM
He was 3-13 0-6. He does that against wsu or uconn and were dead. Steven and Micah know when to quit shooting from out there. That is not an exceptional shooting, it is not even good shooting. Just plain dumb selfishness. Good shooters have bad days true. When you have 5 other guys that can put it in the basket (three others today as bad as it was), good shooters pass the ball and play defense. He made excellent blocks and played great defense. He screwed up on offense as far as I am concerned. Selfishness. Austin aint no Ammo and he aint no star this year so far. I think his head is bigger than his basketball.

I know, I know, I am going to get neg rep. Oh well. Austin is immature. He has a lot of potential. Glad to have him one more year. He will be much better next year. Next year he may be an Ammo. He is not this year.

Johnwzag,

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but the facts are not on your side. Last year, Austin shot 41% from 3 pt. land. This year, he is second on the team shooting 33% from the 3 pt. land. He had a bad day shooting as did the rest of the team. No need to call him selfish for shooting wide open jumpers. That's called smart basketball and if he doesn't shoot them, Coach Few yanks him from the game and rightfully so.

TuckC
12-06-2008, 02:02 PM
He was 3-13 0-6... That is not an exceptional shooting, it is not even good shooting. Just plain dumb selfishness. Good shooters have bad days true. When you have 5 other guys that can put it in the basket (three others today as bad as it was), good shooters pass the ball and play defense.

I know, I know, I am going to get neg rep. Oh well. Austin is immature. He has a lot of potential. Glad to have him one more year. He will be much better next year. Next year he may be an Ammo. He is not this year.

What has Austin done to receive such negative looks? Because he acts a little selfish? Because he's a little immature? He's a young sophomore whose dad was big time, who was big time in high school, who was big in AAU. Sure he's a little spoiled, but that's what you get when you pick somebody that renowned. This is what Roy Williams, Coach K and other top notch schools have to go through with their high notoriety players.
Austin, as previously mentioned, had a serious knee injury earlier this year. Regardless whether or not it is as bad, look at the change Josh went through getting back to 100%.

Also, during the game, several people talked about Austin missing shots and continuing. Why does he receive this negative look when during the Old Spice Classic everybody wanted Stephen to shoot all the time until he got his shot back. Austin's a shooter. We need to remember that the leash shouldn't be this tight on a sophomore who recently got back into the swing of things after injury problems. He's still a Zag.

azzagfan
12-06-2008, 02:02 PM
To be honest, my only criticism of Austin in this game resides more in the clear opportunity where he didn't dive on the floor for a loose ball at mid-court after deflecting it away. Some days, the shots will go in more frequently than others for all the guys, but the effort level and hustle shouldn't falter when the shots don't fall (Meech had a great hustle play and Austin had one as well on an out of bounds play).

For this team to play in Detroit, Austin Daye has to score. I personally hope every team we play the rest of the season scouts GU on this game and leaves him wide open...but I'm guessing they're not that short-sighted...I hope we're not.

Pargo was the glue today. Every time the crowd wanted to get into the game in the second half, Jeremy made senior leadership plays (scored, made heady passes). His maturity thus far this year has been very impressive.

jazzdelmar
12-06-2008, 02:04 PM
No you don't. Glad to have your sunshine back on the boards.

I think some posters, including myself, get on your posts because they are all in the same vein. I can't remember anything positive you've ever written on this board. That may discount some of your very valid criticisms.

Just my two cents.


23: ur right...im not going anywhere...and ur wrong, i have posted a ton of positive stuff......ask around...thx anyway

vandalzag
12-06-2008, 02:05 PM
For one the dunk over the chair was during the Midnight Madness event not pre-game, but we would hate for facts to cloud your rant. Also, what was Few chiding Pargo for? You must have been sitting on the bench to hear what they were talking about, because I could not pick up anything, even in glorious HD. Please tell me you are not reading body language again. As far as the discipline goes, you are just looking for something to be negative about. The irony is that Pargo today was most likely the most disciplined player on the court, not forcing shots, letting the game come to him,etc...There was plenty to criticize in this game, but you pick Pargo cmon. If anything you should have been jumping up and down saying that Pargo had changed, if this game would have happened last year he would have been putting up shots every other time down the floor. But no need to focus on anything positive, you just keep rolling with your shiny outlook. As the previous poster said when you only work negative your point gets lost. You have stated in the past that you want to balance out the pollys, why is that? Did Bobzag post an add at the legion of doom bulletin board asking for somebody to please come over and fix the GU fans because they were too positive in their support.

john montana
12-06-2008, 02:06 PM
shooters shoot. Whether they are 0 for 5 at that point or 5 for 5, when a shooter gets a good look they should take it. obviously there are variations due to time/score, etc but to say a guy shouldn't take an open look in the offense because he missed his last couple is crazy.

I do think we should have looked inside more today, but those were all open looks. we just shot horribly.

jazz, my only issue with your posts is that you seem to revel in the negative. I actually agree with you the vast majority of the time; you just seem giddy to have the chance to say something negative. I'm sure a lot of that is just perception coming through the keyboard, but that is what i see. I do think you are on the mark often though.

former1dog
12-06-2008, 02:07 PM
F1Doggie---What game did u watch? They stunk it up, save for Josh and Sacre...Matt's volley of pts at the end were agst Indy's THIRD team...guys with broken noses and horn rims.....PLEEEEEZ, ur a better fan than that..As for Few chiding Pgo, what standing does he have to do that; he allowed Pgo to jump over a teammate in a preseason pregame dunk contest...Gotta be his worst decision of late...

Shooting was awful and we need to clean up the turnovers, although Pargo hand a 4.0 A/TO ratio. Pretty good.

The effort, though, was solid. Good defensive intensity, which was required because of the poor shooting. And, solid execution of the halftime adjustment going inside out for scoring.

Absolutely nothing to get worked up over. Keep working at it. Clean up a little sloppiness and we're good to go.

Bing
12-06-2008, 02:07 PM
i have posted a ton of positive stuff......

And he's bound to spell a word.

jazzdelmar
12-06-2008, 02:11 PM
For one the dunk over the chair was during the Midnight Madness event not pre-game, but we would hate for facts to cloud your rant. Also, what was Few chiding Pargo for? You must have been sitting on the bench to hear what they were talking about, because I could not pick up anything, even in glorious HD. Please tell me you are not reading body language again. As far as the discipline goes, you are just looking for something to be negative about. The irony is that Pargo today was most likely the most disciplined player on the court, not forcing shots, letting the game come to him,etc...There was plenty to criticize in this game, but you pick Pargo cmon. If anything you should have been jumping up and down saying that Pargo had changed, if this game would have happened last year he would have been putting up shots every other time down the floor. But no need to focus on anything positive, you just keep rolling with your shiny outlook. As the previous poster said when you only work negative your point gets lost. You have stated in the past that you want to balance out the pollys, why is that? Did Bobzag post an add at the legion of doom bulletin board asking for somebody to please come over and fix the GU fans because they were too positive in their support.


i did not knock pgos dunk..i thought it was great and in an appropriate spot..rather i was responding to another poster (see on thread) who suggested few was displeased....i didnt think so.....all i said was, how cd few knock pgo for an in game dunk when he ok'd a dangerous one in midnite madness..if pgo breaks a leg in that spot, what do u think now? i thought pgo played very well tday and wd place him 3d behind josh and rob as pog.....got that?


here it is: All together, good effort, a similar style of play that Gonzaga will see against Wazzu (slow basketball, only Indiana showed its youth today). I'm sure Few isn't happy with Pargo's sportscenter highlight dunk at the end, but definitely one of his most impressive moments. from Hoopster777

johnwzag
12-06-2008, 02:12 PM
I knew I would get neg rep for speaking about Daye. I don't know why some people are so blindlessly following the national hype. Daye has not produced consistently yet this year and out of Jeremy, Micah, Matt, Joshua

[Edit.... I may have jumped the gun on this one, will have to wait for the numbers. This game really hurt Austin's %s /end edit] and even Steven Grey;


he now has the worst shooting precentage this season. He might produce in the future, but..Jeremy, Josh, Micah and Matt are consistently producing in some way. Those who produce should be considered the better players, not those who are hyped up to be better.

Some people are drinking the Austin Daye Kool-aid. I feel I am looking at him honestly. He is a great kid with lots of potential, but I would not let him continue to play the way he is at the expense of the rest of the team. He needs a lot of work and he has to listen to the coach. Until he does, I would think Few will limit his minutes. I am especially concerned about the latest AP article that says the same thing without pointing out Daye directly.

TuckC
12-06-2008, 02:15 PM
You list those players for what Austin should be like, they're 3 seniors and a junior. You need to remember how young he is. Steven's a great kid and a great player, but his maturity has been a gift.
Ready for the NBA? No not yet.

MickMick
12-06-2008, 02:16 PM
Zag defense is covering for offensive mistakes.

I will never knock Austin Daye for taking open shots. I will (and always have) considered his penchant for putting the ball on the floor as a weakness.

For 6' 10" he is a decent ball handler. That isn't saying much. He has to discern who is defending him. When facing shorter, fleet footed players, he must understand that they will force him into turnovers and offensive mistakes if he continues to put the ball on the floor against them.

He is a terrific shot blocker, a good passer, great on inbounds plays (offensively and defensively) and a terrific shooter with the open look. He needs to stick with what he does best.

jazzdelmar
12-06-2008, 02:21 PM
At the risk of being assailed for negativity, how do we feel about the FT shooting?

TuckC
12-06-2008, 02:26 PM
How do we feel?
Should we say solid? I mean I think it's pretty obvious...

johnwzag
12-06-2008, 02:28 PM
You list those players for what Austin should be like, they're 3 seniors and a junior. You need to remember how young he is. Steven's a great kid and a great player, but his maturity has been a gift.
Ready for the NBA? No not yet.


I agree with you. This is the comment I received about Austin Daye...

"Best offensive player we've got...if we want to go to the Final 4, he's got to score"

That is why I wrote what I wrote.

johnwzag
12-06-2008, 02:29 PM
At the risk of being assailed for negativity, how do we feel about the FT shooting?

I am already getting hit, so I will offer my opinion. It was alright a couple of game, but we have to work on them. We will need them soon and overall it has been poor.

TuckC
12-06-2008, 02:31 PM
Austin is probably the most versatile player on offense, Grey is definitely outside and Josh down-low.

TM27
12-06-2008, 02:31 PM
I knew I would get neg rep for speaking about Daye. I don't know why some people are so blindlessly following the national hype. Daye has not produced consistently yet this year and out of Jeremy, Micah, Matt, Joshua and even Steven Grey; he now has the worst shooting precentage this season. He might produce in the future, but..Jeremy, Josh, Micah and Matt are consistently producing in some way. Those who produce should be considered the better players, not those who are hyped up to be better.

Some people are drinking the Austin Daye Kool-aid. I feel I am looking at him honestly. He is a great kid with lots of potential, but I would not let him continue to play the way he is at the expense of the rest of the team. He needs a lot of work and he has to listen to the coach. Until he does, I would think Few will limit his minutes. I am especially concerned about the latest AP article that says the same thing without pointing out Daye directly.

Unreal... You say you get neg rep for not following the "hype"...rest assured the neg rep you get from me after I post this, is solely for posting out of your ass. Austin did not have his best game...but before todays game Austin compared to those avg 20+ mins a game:

Blocks = 1st
FG% = 2nd
3 pt FG% = tied 2nd
Steals = 2nd
Rebounds = 1st
FT % = 2nd
Pts = tied 2nd


You want Few to limit his minutes...? Comical! I see you are in the "scow...So drive 10 minutes up the road to watch daye in person this wednesday...because obviously watching via game tracker is not helping you.

vandalzag
12-06-2008, 02:35 PM
First how do you get "Few was chiding Pargo" from an internet poster thinking that Few may not have been happy with the dunk" And even if you can make that stretch in thinking you then claim you were commenting on the personal safety of Pargo and how he could get hurt. If that was the case why did you not say that.... It is fun disagreeing with you but that is just silly. You rode the dunk over the chair by Pargo all last year, and you were not worried about him getting hurt. You said above that you make plenty of positive comments, what is the ratio 10/1, 20/1, etc... You just prefer to single out players, looking for any reason (real or imagined) to take a shot at them, relishing the failure of individuals that you do not like.

johnwzag
12-06-2008, 02:45 PM
Also, this neg rep.... "for bringing up rep (in a post) like it means something".

It means a couple of thing to me. I got under your skin and there are Austin Daye Kool-aid drinkers out there like I thought there was. You proved my point. I said I was going to get blasted for what I said and I was right.

I am trying to fish out the Austin Date Kool-aid drinkers because I want to have a discussion about him. You blasting me is not discussion.

TuckC
12-06-2008, 02:51 PM
Wait, by him attacking your weak argument about Austin Daye means that you are now right? Logic...?

johnwzag
12-06-2008, 03:01 PM
is solely for posting out of your ass..

Great I weeded one guy out. I have not ability to post out my ass.



Austin did not have his best game...but before todays game Austin compared to those avg 20+ mins a game:..

Blocks = 1st - I am pretty sure he will maintain this all season.
FG% = 2nd - I bet he will be first by the end of the season.

Austin does great things. I am not saying he is a terrible basketball player. He is a great player that is not mature and that he is not as good as Micah, Matt, Jeremy and Joshua. That is what I am saying. I am saying Austin Daye being our best Offensive player is wrong.

[/QUOTE]
So drive 10 minutes up the road to watch daye in person this wednesday...because obviously watching via game tracker is not helping you.[/QUOTE]

This is the only game I have not seen this season. The numbers of this game though do not lie. The AP wrote "Instead of exploiting its huge size advantage inside, the Zags repeatedly settled for long jumpers early, which allowed Indiana to hang around."

Daye should have given up on the three after 3 misses at most and worked inside. It comes from being young. That is all. Why does this upset you?

johnwzag
12-06-2008, 03:02 PM
I will post no more here for now. I know I cannot argue with someone on the Kool-aid.

johnwzag
12-06-2008, 03:11 PM
Zag defense is covering for offensive mistakes.

I will never knock Austin Daye for taking open shots. I will (and always have) considered his penchant for putting the ball on the floor as a weakness.

For 6' 10" he is a decent ball handler. That isn't saying much. He has to discern who is defending him. When facing shorter, fleet footed players, he must understand that they will force him into turnovers and offensive mistakes if he continues to put the ball on the floor against them.

He is a terrific shot blocker, a good passer, great on inbounds plays (offensively and defensively) and a terrific shooter with the open look. He needs to stick with what he does best.

I am going back on my last post for only one reason. MickMick has a way with words, I do not. Well said MickMick, I agree with you.

TuckC
12-06-2008, 03:16 PM
How do you give up on the threes, when if you have to ever play in a big arena again, you want the experience of depth problems and work on your shooting with a (synonym for weird) situation.

MickMick
12-06-2008, 03:18 PM
I am going back on my last post for only one reason. MickMick has a way with words, I do not. Well said MickMick, I agree with you.


Zags beat a well-coached Big 10 team on the road by 16. They also played their worst game of the season and still won.

At least they didn't have to play Michigan today.


With respect to rep....I just take it without a peep. In the end, I get more good than bad. There is a price to pay for speaking your mind and it isn't just relegated to message boards. As long as you understand that and are willing to accept criticism when it comes, then call it like you see it.

If you have confidence in your debate, then stick with it. If you are losing the debate, then consider it a learning experience and keep it from getting personal.

Not accusing you of taking it that far John

TM27
12-06-2008, 03:19 PM
I will post no more here for now. I know I cannot argue with someone on the Kool-aid.

Lol!!!???? What?

So in the post I responded to, you said things like ... "Few should reduce his minutes"...and you implied that Austin is not contributing in anyway.."but..Jeremy, Josh, Micah and Matt are consistently producing in some way. Those who produce should be considered the better players, not those who are hyped up to be better."

I responded by showing you that Austin is #1 or #2 in every major statistical category and that today's offensive display is the anomally, not the norm. Stop using terms like, "drinking the kool aid"...it is a term from about 10 years ago...that Jazz still uses.

And now in your last post you are saying he will end up leading the team in FG%...but in the same post you say that he should stop shooting the WIDE open jumpers he was given all day???


Edit - I see you now agree with Mick...so no reason to continue this. But in all seriousness...John, I will be at the WSU game and you should take advantage of the location. It will be a true test for Mr. Daye. I am interested to see how he responds. PM me if you end up going.

TuckC
12-06-2008, 03:22 PM
backpedaling is dangerous when you can't sweep EVERYTHING under the rug.

Regardless of this nonsensical back-and-forth, when Austin finds his shot again we'll all be happy.

john montana
12-06-2008, 03:29 PM
I watched the game and we had great looks at the three today. Most of austin's shots were wide open. I'm sure you could find one or two that he could have passed on, or kicked the ball inside or around but overall, he took good, open shots today.

I just do not understand this idea that if a great shooter misses a few in a row (apparently the # is 3) they should stop shooting. shooters shoot.

TuckC
12-06-2008, 03:34 PM
well spoken jm
Like I keep on saying, if we want Grey to have creative control to get his shot on track, we should do the same for Daye.

johnwzag
12-06-2008, 04:55 PM
All right MickMich as per your advise, I am going to add to it a little bit, but I feel like I am on a silly playground with children.


Lol!!!???? What?

LOL? What? I don't find you funny at all. I find that your responses are sad. You think you must be right or I must be wrong or something? Where did you get the idea that I was competing with you? Let me help you understand something. Discussions are verbal exchanges about opinions.
If you understand that, you will do well.

If you happen to be older than you appear, then I would suggest some Prozac or Zoloft because from what I have learned from people that twist peoples words are people that think a discussion is about being right and they want to be the one who is. It is not.

What is the point to being right in a discussion? One is right, the other is wrong. No more discussion. That is pretty dumb to me. A discussion is an exchange of opiions, is it not?

Let's look at your view of the world here.....


So in the post I responded to, you said things like ... "Few should reduce his minutes"

Here is the problem. I actually said "I would think Few will limit his minutes". I never said Few should limit his minutes. I don't coach Mark Few, he is a great coach! If you still don't understand, I willl try again. I don't think Few is going to look at Austin's performance favorably. I do think Mark Few wants to work on the entire team as a team and as a team, I am guessing Mark Few will limit SOME of Austins minutes.

Now your saying I said Few should reduce Austin's minutes. That is a lie. Plain and simple. Well, you could say, I did not mean it as a lie. It is. That is why I cannot talk to you.

Let's go on...


...and you implied that Austin is not contributing in anyway..

I said "Austin does great things. I am not saying he is a terrible basketball player. He is a great player that is not mature and that he is not as good as Micah, Matt, Jeremy and Joshua. That is what I am saying. I am saying Austin Daye being our best Offensive player is wrong."

Not contributing in any way? No, you said that I implied that when I did not. Again, reality and fantasy are two differnt things.


And now in your last post you are saying he will end up leading the team in FG%..

Yes, based up last years performance, I think he will.


but in the same post you say that he should stop shooting the WIDE open jumpers he was given all day???

Yes, That is my opinion. He should stop. One, two, maybe three, but when you miss them all let the guards shoot out there and play your position. He should work on being a forward, playing in the paint and not fouling and improving on that. Let Gray miss the threes. That is his Job.

These are all my opinions, not the ones you say I say. If you want to discuss with me, first be honest, second, don't be insulting.


In this discussion - You loose. That may bother you, but I could care less.

john montana
12-06-2008, 05:17 PM
johnwzag...i am absolutely NOT trying to get you all riled up here (or more riled up) but I am curious about the "stop shooting" mantra. Austin really is one of our best three point shooters, he showed that last year and everything I've heard from summer play etc. is that he can really knock down shots from behind the arc. I do think we need to look for Austin to do most of his damage from the middle range (he is deadly in the middle of a zone) but when in the course of the offense he finds himself wide open outside the arc...i couldn't care if he's missed 10 in a row, I'd be willing to bet there is a 50/50 chance the shot goes in. Frankly, when I see him shoot an open three i'm pretty surprised when he misses (i feel the same way about downs).

Now, i would agree that in general, we want Austin and Josh doing their damage closer to the hoop. In the past I haven't liked how josh always seemed to "float" out to the 3 point line. I haven't really seen Austin float out there, as in most cases we are trying to keep the middle clear for josh so Austin needs to be farther out for good spacing. We can agree to disagree here, but i'd like to hear a little more about your reasoning for calling for Austin to stop shooting after 3 consecutive misses. From the basketball I've played, coached, and watched you just don't tell a player that shoots as well as Austin...3 misses and you are done looking for outside shots. You feel differently, I get that...just want a better understanding of why.

I still agree that against a team like IU we should have POUNDED that ball inside. I'm speaking above to the general idea of "stopping" shooting when a shooter isn't "on." I've argued for years about this with my dad. Of course my dad's favorite saying is "the only time I was ever wrong was when I thought I made a mistake." That combined with the fact that I could outshoot him from the time I was in 8th grade really framed our discussions!

TM27
12-06-2008, 05:23 PM
John - I do think it is funny. I think it is funny that you make bold posts about Austins play. I respond with stats showing he is leading in nearly every category...then you tell me I am drinking Kool Aid. That is pretty damn funny to me. You can edit your original posts all you want to make this latest one fit, but unfortunately I quoted you earlier and it is still frozen in my post (4:31pm). I did read your original post as you suggesting Austin minutes should be reduced, if that is not what you meant by "I would think Few will limit his minutes", then my apologies .... and then when you wrote "Daye has not produced consistently yet this year and out of Jeremy, Micah, Matt, Joshua and even Steven Grey; he now has the worst shooting precentage this season. He might produce in the future, but..Jeremy, Josh, Micah and Matt are consistently producing in some way." so I responded ..... nevermind this is ridiculous. Your quotes are in my post at 4:31. I do think it is funny. I do think you are wrong. If you want to continue lets take it offline...just PM me and we can continue this there.

johnwzag
12-06-2008, 05:50 PM
Well, I did not say stop shooting three's all together did I? I think I said, if he misses 3 3s without hitting one, then stop. I, for one do care if Austin misses 10 shots when there is time to pass the ball, especially this year with this team. Every single game is a practice when you are #5 in the country and you better get better. Not worse, because everyone is gunning for you.

Now here is a number I have not brought up, which I should of earlier. A/T Going into this game for Austin Daye is 1/8....That is terrible and thus my cause to use the word selfish.

The rest of the team Season Averages.

Josh Heytvelt 1/2.3
Micah Downs 2.3/1
Matt Bouldin 1.4/1
Steven Gray 1.5/1
Jeremy Pargo 4.4/1
Demetri Goodson 1.1/1

As far as I can tell from the numbers and watching the games, Austin is not playing team ball, he is trying to be Ammo. So I don't want to give him a break when he misses so many. Sure he is getting blocks, steals, rebounds, ect and he is putting up points, but I think he needs to improve that 1/8 number before he does anything else.

johnwzag
12-06-2008, 05:53 PM
John - I do think it is funny. I think it is funny that you make bold posts about Austins play. I respond with stats showing he is leading in nearly every category...then you tell me I am drinking Kool Aid. That is pretty damn funny to me. You can edit your original posts all you want to make this latest one fit, but unfortunately I quoted you earlier and it is still frozen in my post (4:31pm). I did read your original post as you suggesting Austin minutes should be reduced, if that is not what you meant by "I would think Few will limit his minutes", then my apologies .... and then when you wrote "Daye has not produced consistently yet this year and out of Jeremy, Micah, Matt, Joshua and even Steven Grey; he now has the worst shooting precentage this season. He might produce in the future, but..Jeremy, Josh, Micah and Matt are consistently producing in some way." so I responded ..... nevermind this is ridiculous. Your quotes are in my post at 4:31. I do think it is funny. I do think you are wrong. If you want to continue lets take it offline...just PM me and we can continue this there.


Your a nut case dude. The only edit I made was about Gray in which I put the words myself, long before your accusation began. Shall I put you on my ignore list, or will you please put it to rest?

[EDIT] <-- my typing, I use when I edit a post so other's know I edited the post. You are still trying to win a discussion. Why? It is dumb in my book and I dont care

TM27
12-06-2008, 05:57 PM
Lol! Okay...

Reborn
12-06-2008, 06:04 PM
John Montana, talking about his dad says, "That combined with the fact that I could outshoot him from the time I was in 8th grade really framed our discussions!"

:lmao: Hey, John. Maybe your dad let you win??????? :D You were only a kid.

FuManShoes
12-06-2008, 06:11 PM
Wow, this thread sucks. Please lock this soap opera

john montana
12-06-2008, 06:12 PM
Still not sure as to the "why." I get that you think Austin should not shoot a 3 if he missed 3 in a row. How about Steven? Micah? Raivio or Dickau? I guess the question to me is, do shooters get to shoot, or only guards? Last year Austin shot 41% from behind the arc. Downs shot 38%. This year, Steven is shooting 29%, Austin 33%. Does your "3 misses and you are out" rule apply to Steven as well? Or Micah?

I am asking because I'm honestly curious. I come from a different school of basketball, where shooters shoot when they are open. I'm thrilled to see Steven keep shooting, even after missing 3,4,5 in a row...ditto for Austin or anyone that has proven they can knock down that shot at a high percentage. When the gameplan calls to dump that ball inside, that is what you should do, but if given the green light and you have a good look...in my book you take it regardless of the last 3 shots you took.

I'm not a run and gun all out basketball guy, and I fully understand time/score implications...but none of Austin's attempts today from behind the arc struck me as "bad" shots. There was probably one shot he took that I thought he had Josh in the post had he made the pass...that was it that I saw. 6 threes attempted in a game is one or two more than is ideal...but watching that game they were all open looks. I think any other day and he buries 4 of them.

john montana
12-06-2008, 06:16 PM
John Montana, talking about his dad says, "That combined with the fact that I could outshoot him from the time I was in 8th grade really framed our discussions!"

:lmao: Hey, John. Maybe your dad let you win??????? :D You were only a kid.

Heck no! I beat my dad one on one when I was in 7th grade, and to this day it is the ONLY time I've beaten him one on one. He wouldn't play me again! He'd only play me in horse...Slightly competitive family!

I'm honestly curious here, not trying to cause a big war and certainly don't want to be personal or attacking. It is a different school of thought than how I look at basketball, so I'm curious.

TM27
12-06-2008, 06:21 PM
Montana - My bet is the same as yours, in that Austin has the green light from anywhere inside of half court (sarcasm). If he starts launching contested shots from all over, my guess would be that Few reminds him of the talent on the team...unless his teammates beat Few to it. Shots not falling are part of the game, shooting through it is too. All shots today were wide open 3's...shoot shoot shoot. Same school of thought.

johnwzag
12-06-2008, 06:44 PM
Heck no! I beat my dad one on one when I was in 7th grade, and to this day it is the ONLY time I've beaten him one on one. He wouldn't play me again! He'd only play me in horse...Slightly competitive family!

I'm honestly curious here, not trying to cause a big war and certainly don't want to be personal or attacking. It is a different school of thought than how I look at basketball, so I'm curious.

You lucky. It took me till the 9th grade. It is a sweet memory though. I was in 12th before I could outrun him in a 5 mile race. My dad was a SGT MG in the Army though, he was tough. FYI - My dad is the one that introduced me to Gonzaga. We have great conversations.

John, you and I are having a good discussion I think. Sorry, I am trying my best to explain it. I would give Gray 5 straight misses right now, but he is the only exception, even though I really have not seen a lot, he has shown in the Davidson game he can be near as good as Curry in time. That was sweet watching him that game. I still have it on DVD.

The biggest reason is the depth of this team and the number 5 ranking with UConn #2 coming up. This is not your average year or your average team and if we are going to make it to the final four, they must all do their best to improve the team and play as a team.

That said, What has Gray done? Over all the games this year, including Tennesse, he got under the basket, got to the bucket and got the foul.
He not only can shoot the three (and sometimes not), he has the ability to handle the basketball well and be tough when it is not working. Austin does not have that right now. It is great when he is hitting, but when he is not, he is turning the ball over. Hence, Austin needs to work on his inside game so when they do not drop, he can help down low.

I believe if he is going to take his game to the next level, he needs to be able to control the ball in the paint. That said, if Few does not get on him about that, he may tend to do what JH did in the past and fall back to the three line, rather than work on his game. We have plenty of good guards.
I am positive Mark will not let that happen because Austin is such a talented player.

Note: Micah, Matt and Gray are bringing it in with control down low and A/T's are good. I think Micah had one night he should have stopped shooting the three earlier - but again, he can handle the ball in the paint. Micah has got ball control down as well as defense.

Don't get me wrong. He is young and most of it is normal, but... Where I get bothered from people is when they place him on a pedestal above the other players where he does not belong.

HillBillyZag
12-06-2008, 07:01 PM
What has become of this board? In the past we did'nt have half the bickering I've seen so far today even after a loss. Flying out to Indy and playing a game at 10:30 PST in a hostile everonment would affect any team. The Dukies went into Michigan and got their nose bloodied, and others had close calls. Frankly, in some seasons past we would have lost this game. And for my two cents, Daye did'nt have one of his better games, but on the other hand, other guys picked him up. Next time it may be Austin that picks up the other guys. This team is deeper by far talentwise than anyone we have played so far, even Tennesee. Everyone knows their job and when they can't or don't perform, another will pick up their slack. And for a fact, IU had a lot of talented frosh and they never quit, battled all the way to the end. The kid from Lakewood Oh. St Edwards, Prichert has got the tools be one hell of an inside player by the time he leaves IU. Wish we had him. Those kids were primed for an upset and had the Zags not found another gear in the second half we might not have liked the result. So let just be glad it was a win and get fired up for a good old fashioned dog vs cat fight on the 10th. I can hardly wait. Go Zags!

MickMick
12-06-2008, 07:13 PM
Wow, this thread sucks. Please lock this soap opera


I don't know why, but I laughed out loud at this. :eek:

krozman
12-06-2008, 08:43 PM
I swear if people can't take honest critical discussions you should really stop coming to this board. Nothing wrong with a little hate going back and forth.

That being said, all this hate after a 16 point win is really beginning to make me wonder!

TuckC
12-06-2008, 09:56 PM
What I learned from this thread...
Austin Daye should stop shooting, but continue shooting, until he starts to stink. Then Few should limit his minute then keep playing him. Maybe add here or there that he is a great player that isn't that great.
Did John Madden make this thread?