PDA

View Full Version : Is it just me?



alaskazagnut
11-19-2008, 12:13 AM
Or was the second half slightly disturbing. I wondered if I should even comment on it but I wanted to know what others thought. I thought we should have won 90-40. Idaho beat us in the second half.

I am convinced we are a top 10 team after todays game but

1. Is it wrong of me to think we should have beat Idaho by 50 pts?
2. Is there any good reason to not play 100% all the time?
3. What is a killer instinct? Do we have it? What other teams have it?
4. Is it OK to be complacent or sloppy when the game is over by the half?
5. Can we get to the final four if we allow complacent sloppiness?

zagfan08
11-19-2008, 12:29 AM
1. No, if we kept up the amazing defense and intensity throughout the game we would have demolished them by at least 50.
2. No. But it is harder to play 100% when you are ahead by 40 than when it is a close game.
3. In my opinion a killer instinct is taking a 5 point game and getting it up to 15 and then to 20. Also, taking a tie game with several lead changes and getting making a run with a couple minutes left to give yourself a 3 or 4 possession lead. Just because we didn't take a 36 point game up to 50 doesn't mean we don't have a killer instinct. We will learn so much more about this team after the Old Spice tournament.
4. No, it's not necessarily okay to be sloppy, but I'm not concerned that we didn't come out and continue our dominance in the second half. The game was over, no doubt.
5. Obviously you can't be sloppy in close games and expect to get to the final four. We haven't been in a close game yet so we'll see how the players react in that situation.

Overall, no I am not worried Idaho outscored us in the 2nd half. And as I said, we will learn so much more about this team after seeing them play good competition next week.

Our leadership is as good this year as it's been in a while. Pargo is the key to everything despite taking a backseat in scoring. He has really impressed me in the first two games.

Akzag
11-19-2008, 01:31 AM
I went to Humpy's at halftime ... no Zag game within my sightline ... but I too, was disturbed when the final score scrolled along the bottom line.

I am off to study tape and disect.

MickMick
11-19-2008, 01:32 AM
What he said.

I had a brief concern with the Billings game just prior to half time. I no longer am concerned.

zagfan08 sums things up nicely.

Zags were in cruise control. They emptied the bench.


1. No, if we kept up the amazing defense and intensity throughout the game we would have demolished them by at least 50.
2. No. But it is harder to play 100% when you are ahead by 40 than when it is a close game.
3. In my opinion a killer instinct is taking a 5 point game and getting it up to 15 and then to 20. Also, taking a tie game with several lead changes and getting making a run with a couple minutes left to give yourself a 3 or 4 possession lead. Just because we didn't take a 36 point game up to 50 doesn't mean we don't have a killer instinct. We will learn so much more about this team after the Old Spice tournament.
4. No, it's not necessarily okay to be sloppy, but I'm not concerned that we didn't come out and continue our dominance in the second half. The game was over, no doubt.
5. Obviously you can't be sloppy in close games and expect to get to the final four. We haven't been in a close game yet so we'll see how the players react in that situation.

Overall, no I am not worried Idaho outscored us in the 2nd half. And as I said, we will learn so much more about this team after seeing them play good competition next week.

Our leadership is as good this year as it's been in a while. Pargo is the key to everything despite taking a backseat in scoring. He has really impressed me in the first two games.

77Zag
11-19-2008, 06:54 AM
It is just you -- warm ups are over, play starts on Turkey Day -- you won't see the reserves playing before the first half is over starting next Thursday.

FuManShoes
11-19-2008, 07:00 AM
Idaho deserves some credit for that second half. I rewatched it and they executed much better offensively, shared the ball better and flat out made some shots. The Zags, on the other hand, had some dry spells, had a few turnovers and of course brought in more bench guys as the game went on. I wouldn't be too disturbed by it. The Zags showed they can completely befuddle a team defensively and score in bunches to take a big lead. It's only natural to step off the gas a bit and tinker with lineups after that.

I would like to see the Zags work on getting Josh the ball more. He's working hard to run the floor and seal his man and deserves some better entry passes.

johnwzag
11-19-2008, 08:55 AM
I am going to watch the game again this morning. I thought that Idaho did keep josh away from the basket most of the time. The paint was too crowded I thought.

Shanachie
11-19-2008, 09:02 AM
1. Is it wrong of me to think we should have beat Idaho by 50 pts?
2. Is there any good reason to not play 100% all the time?
3. What is a killer instinct? Do we have it? What other teams have it?
4. Is it OK to be complacent or sloppy when the game is over by the half?
5. Can we get to the final four if we allow complacent sloppiness?

1. I think "should have" is putting it too strongly. "Could have" maybe.
2. Yes - human nature. It is impossible to give the same effort all the time.
3. I don't think we know yet. Taking a 47-11 lead is evidence of killer instinct, but I don't think we'll really know until we play a much better team than Idaho.
4. I wouldn't suggest phrasing it that way to the players, but I think you have to expect it to some degree. See #2.
5. Consistently, during close games, especially during the NCAA tourney? Probably not. But in Game #2 vs. Idaho? No impact on whether we can get to a final four.

I didn't pay close attention during the second half (my answer to #2 applies to fans, too), but just looking at minutes played, it's clear that the coaching staff had a different approach to the second half (as they should have, in my view). The starters played 77 minutes in the first half and 53 in the second. Different players getting minutes, different combinations on the floor, etc. all make sense when the outcome is not in doubt.

Bottom line for me: as I try to remind myself every year, enjoy the moment and try not to worry too much about the future.

bullzag23
11-19-2008, 10:19 AM
I have to say that I was a bit dissapointed with the second half. I'm not sure why we can't just pour it on teams sometimes. We should been closer to 100 points last night. Instead, we let Idaho not really get back in it, but mantain some amount of self respect.

It was a good game, but after the first half I thought it would have been even more of a blowout...

While I do agree that we could have scored 100 points last night if we wanted to, I must ask, what's the point? Sure, we could have played all our starters full time last night and asked every one of them not to let off the gas at all, but isn't there a point in a blowout where sportsmanship must come in? I understand this is big-time D1 Basketball, but when you're leading a team by 36 points at halftime, there's really no reason to 'keep pouring it on'. I love to chant 'Triple Digits' at GU games just as much as the next guy, but it's more fun when the game is close(r). This team is out there to win games, not destroy the self-respect of every team they play. Let the UI guys go with a little dignity, even if one does look like Sideshow Bob.

CDC84
11-19-2008, 10:28 AM
I don't have any major concerns with what took place at the start of the 2nd half last night. The Zags were up by 37. Even North Carolina would've probably had a let down. What is more of a concern for me is what happened the last 5 minutes of the 1st half on Saturday night. The Zags had a nice double digit lead and had a chance to apply the knock out punch, but they went to sleep and let MSU-Billings crawl back into the game. Last night was different....the game was completely over at halftime.

a4zag
11-19-2008, 10:35 AM
While I agree that it would have been awesome to absolutely destroy Idaho we need to remember that this is a team that we have very close ties with and the repeatedly come up here year after year to get worked as a warm up for us. We owe them at least that we will put in our whole bench so they might get a little practice. I personally am happy that Few was classy enough to say, these guys are nowhere near our ability and enough is enough.

Anyone else think that the highlight of the game was Sorenson playing in the first half (and hitting a three)?

CanadZag
11-19-2008, 01:18 PM
I guess we could have played like it was the national championship and won 124-28 and "showed everyone our killer instinct".

But why???

It wouldn't prove anything. It was 47-11. Call off the dogs. We did what we needed to do. Let's call it a night. You don't actually improve in a game that lop-sided. The kids on both sides of the floor don't need the score to be run up.

As zag fans, let's not fret over every single misstep. Let's not think that every turnover or missed defensive assignment against Idaho or USC Upstate means we won't go to the Final Four.

Just enjoy the journey of this year instead of only focusing on March right now.

Its going to be special year--- enjoy the ride.

UberZagFan
11-19-2008, 02:16 PM
It's just you (and some of the other posters in this thread).

NotoriousZ
11-19-2008, 02:51 PM
We definitely did the right thing by laying off after the half. What if one of our guys got hurt in a game that was already over? Could you justify that because you wanted 100 percent all of the time?

alaskazagnut
11-19-2008, 10:09 PM
and coach Few does an excellent job of it.

So....remember I am a Zag fan 100% and I like to express my concerns here on this board with pride and mutual respect.

But we are close to a national championship folks. What is required to get there? That is why I voice what I believe to be legitimate concerns.

1. It was wrong of me to think we should have won by 50. Everyone believes we could. So "Could" is more correct. But it seems the concensus on this board is that it is wrong for any team to win by 50pts.

2. I'm still not convinced it is good to play guys who play less than 100%. Players can still get hurt playing 80% or even 50%. So why risk it? Why reinforce inferior, half arsed, habits in actual game time minutes? Let Foster, Maag and Sorenson loose for 15 minutes. BTW I am not convinced we let up at all!! Idaho beat us in the 2nd half!! How many times in the past have we seen 2nd half lapses in critical games?

3. I believe our starters have killer instinct when we need it as does our coaching staff. But it is hard to find that later if another team has more of it. Let our back-ups develop that instinct by telling them to go out and kill. If Idaho or anyone else can't keep up with our second team then they know where they stand legitimately in Div1. Do you think ANY (and I mean ANY!!!) of our opponents would not love to beat us by 50!!

4. Complacency and sloppyness is not acceptable, ever. Play guys who won't do that and develop bad habits. It wasn't unsportsmanlike for Sorenson to hit 2 three pointers in a game already decided, now was it!?!?! So play em'. If we win by 50 with our walk-ons then so be it!!! I am not saying we were complacent (but we were sloppy at times), Idaho did beat us in the second half.

5. IMO!! We have a better chance at getting to the final four if we stop worrying about beating teams by 50. I still believe court time should be 100% time. Any team agreeing to play UNC, Memphis, or Gonzaga out of confernece, knows they could be in for an embarassment. We can still show sportsmanship while dominating by 50 points. Did the every Zag show sportsmanship the ENTIRE game?

BTWIdaho has more guts than UW! UW shows less sportsmanship by not even playing us! They are not scared to lose by 50. UW is!!!! Lets not speak for the Idaho players. We just need to play 40 minutes of Zag ball. Nothing less.

I guess I had hoped for a "No Mercy Attitude" this season. Are sportsmanship and no mercy mutually exclusive?

I am beginning to believe that that is what might be one trait common with National Champions. I would trade ALL future games with Idaho, if they didn't like us beating them by 50, to have one National Championship. We have to stop worrying about goodwill with our opponents on the basketball court. The 50-60 years of history of Idaho and Gonzaga speak differently of our relationship with each other. It isn't all about basketball. Some of our schools partnerships in research may actually save lives someday!! Hoops is entertainment.

REMEMBER!!! I think if teams weren't willing to get beat by 50 then they wouldn't play, like UW. Idaho has more guts than UW! UW shows less sportsmanship by not even playing us!

A 50 pt win is not unsportsmanlike in Div 1, IMO. Taunting,whining and mocking is. This isn't little league where an inning may never end because the other team is so much better. The athletes are not children who need those type of lessons in self esteem and sportsmanship. All div 1 players had that in grade school, middle and high school. If they have not developed it by then they should not be in Div 1. I assume sportsmanship and integrity by now. Anything less is abnormal and it shows in the NCAA, unlike the NBA. Why disrespect less skilled teams and athletes by having our starters toy with them. Idaho doesn't want to play our 5 starters who toy and play half arsed. But if our opponents still lose legitimately with our back ups, they will always come back to try again. That is integrity and sportsmanship and I assume the best in our student athletes, both need to practice being good winners and good losers.

I can handle losing to gentleman and scholars by 100 points. Losing still bites wether it is by 1 or 100. National champions will not look back with sympathy. We shouldn't have any this year at all. Play our best or don't play. Save the half ased minutes for practice time, not during our national championship season. That time is now! We take every second seriously.

FuManShoes
11-19-2008, 10:54 PM
For all the great defense and unselfish play, the fact is the Zags aren't exactly lighting it up out there. They are 18-55 from three point land, and Gray and Daye have been mighty cold from distance. GU earned that huge halftime lead against Idaho in large part because Idaho couldn't hold onto the ball long enough to take a shot. Sure, much of that was due to stifling D, but it was also due to palming, travelling and charges that were preventable. They played dumb. In the 2nd half they at least displayed some patience while the Zags jacked up still more threes and knocked rebounds out of bounds. That doesn't mean the Zags don't have a killer instinct, it means they're human. It takes a pretty -- strike that, a wholly -- disciplined effort to play lock-down D for 40 minutes. Somehow Tony B gets his guys to do it (witness Wazzu's recent scores). Then again maybe it's easier to preach D when you've convinced your team they can't win on O, like the Zags can.

bullzag23
11-20-2008, 10:49 AM
I really don't feel like killer instinct is fundamentally necessary in each and every second of every game that is played throughout the season. It would be very difficult to fire up the team for every game, especially when going into certain games(MSU, Idaho, etc). What do we really prove even if we do beat either of those teams by 50? You prove exactly that, you can beat a bad team by 50 points. I think the team showed plenty of 'killer instinct' in the first half when they built a 47-11 lead. After that, the game was essentially over, our bench was emptied before halftime, and there really wasn't much else to play for beyond that. We had the game in hand, so why kick Idaho when they're down? You know that team is not going to overcome a 36 point lead, especially against a team that is simply outmatching them at every position.

However, on the flip side of all of this, if we were up by 30 points at the half against an elite opponent, say UConn, I would not expect us to let off the gas. I tend to look at this based on the situation and the opponent we are facing. I feel that an elite, top 10 team has the potential to come back from such a deficit(do I need to reference a certain game a few years back?), where a team like UI does not. We should continue to fight until the game is truly in hand. I'd say this year, against most of our OOC home opponents, Few 'should' be able to use large portions of the 2nd half to tinker with lineups/strategy etc, and use the knowledge gained against future/better teams. I'm not trying to say that we should be incredibly sportsmanlike against every team we face, but we must pick and choose where/against whom we can let up. There are certain games where killer instinct alone can be the difference maker, I'm just hoping the team will know when and where they should take that perspective.

Rubbadub
11-20-2008, 10:57 AM
When you're up by 30 or 40, it's time for experimentation and working out your bench/younger players--who cares if we win by 50 or not?

alaskazagnut
11-20-2008, 02:28 PM
There are certain games where killer instinct alone can be the difference maker, I'm just hoping the team will know when and where they should take that perspective.

Bullzag23, I agree with you. I don't like hoping though. This year we have a chance to win it all. Take that perspective on every game. That way there is no "hoping" that they are up for it when they need it.

I'm sorry folks but if you want to win it all this season then maybe we need to win it all each game. IMHO.

But I still think court time should be 100% time. No one will ever change my opinion of that. Few can tinker with who plays but should never demand less than their best. I try and teach my kids this every day. So why should I assume anything different in college hoops. That is fundamental to success. That will win a championship. I'm not saying to run up the score or rub it in!!! I am saying put in players who have the chance to play 100%. That is one way the team gets better top to bottom. I believe more injuries occur when players aren't taking the activity very seriously anyway. So playing guys who are milking the clock is more risky. Remember the old addage? "Most accidents happen half a mile from home." Well I believe most injuries happen when players are not concentrating 100% on the game and therefore their bodies too.

Yes, I can handle injuries if they happen if the player is giving it his all. Even in "decided" games or even in practice, I can exept injuries if our guys are trying to win a national championship. Not on some motor scooter, or in a night club, or tendinitis from video games. Hard practices and physical conditioning help win championships too. People can get injured doing that also. I accept this fact as part of sports.

johnwzag
11-20-2008, 07:29 PM
No injuries is a much bigger concern than a 50 point lead.

Zag4Hire
11-20-2008, 08:42 PM
I am convinced we are a top 10 team after todays game but

1. Is it wrong of me to think we should have beat Idaho by 50 pts?
2. Is there any good reason to not play 100% all the time?
3. What is a killer instinct? Do we have it? What other teams have it?
4. Is it OK to be complacent or sloppy when the game is over by the half?
5. Can we get to the final four if we allow complacent sloppiness?

1) From a postgame article:

"Idaho got off only five shots in the game’s first seven minutes, and did not score until Marvin Jefferson’s free throw with 12:54 left in the first half."

I kept looking at the score and was thinking, "I can't believe they only had 11 points at the end of the half. Remember just a few years ago, the defense was a joke and regardless of the insane amount of offensive firepower, relatively weak teams were always in the game. This team is hungry for the boards and plays some tough defense. I just wish they would push or get through some ball screens better. What was scary was this was Idaho and heavyweight teams do this even better.

2) Easy to say. Another thing to do it. Also it's easy to say if you don't let off the gas when you are up by 30+ that you could run into a bad incident occurring like last year's game with Georgia. The Zags were not up by a lot on Georgia but I remember after seeing Jeremy go flying, "Was all my God? These guys don't care about the game, they are just out to hurt one of the players." Bad teams usually have a player or two who lack discipline and may do something stupid because they have nothing to lose.

3) Killer instinct is having a solid lead against a great team and not losing the game. Like the game against North Carolina at the Garden two years ago.

4) No it nevers is but I would just be concerned to not let any of my players get hurt. That would be my primary focus at that point.

5) No but you shouldn't see these type of games against any upcoming opponent. We will see where we stand come February I believe in regards to the tourney.

FuManShoes
11-20-2008, 09:33 PM
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/recap?gid=200811200592

LongIslandZagFan
11-21-2008, 06:29 AM
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/recap?gid=200811200592


Wow... is that East Central team a throwback to the old LMU run, run, run and run some more days or was that game just one that everyone took the defensive night off?

alaskazagnut
11-21-2008, 06:36 AM
50 points is an example of what I think we should have beat our 1st 2 opponents by. The issue is every athlete and coach performing at 100% for every game minute possible.

People, this is likely our best chance at a national championship! Why leave anything on the floor? Why wonder if we could have won by 50 or 1!!! I want our best effort every minute. Is that too much to ask?

We have the talent, personalities, and coaches available this year for a national cahmpionship. Play our back-ups when we can. Play our starters as long as they believe they are healthy. Honestly, we need to just play and take no prisoners. What is this attitude about being nice and not beating the other team by too much? That is, really, one of the most ridiculous things I have heard in a long time.

I tire of sloppiness. It cost us against Texas Tech, UCLA, Wyoming, and at critical times, Davidson. Complacency breeds this sloppiness when we dont want it. Everybody knows this has been a problem. It still is. I want a CHAMPIONSHIP! WE ALL DO! There is no excuse for anything this year. I should stop arguing that we get complacent and sloppy at times because I am preeaching to the choir, and it is not always because of our opponents defense.

TO WIN A NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP, imho I BELIEVE, WE MUST PLAY EVERY SECOND OF PLAY OF EVERY MINUTE OF EVERY HALF OF EVERY GAME WITH THE SAME INTENSITY OF THE CHAMPIONSHIP GAME.

We have ALL the pieces to win it all this season. All we lack is the total package. I belive the part missing is a deep hunger. So be it,..........GREED!!

Done