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Rubbadub
03-12-2007, 05:29 AM
After listening to the Kansas State and Syracuse coaches and watching some of the bracketology coverage on ESPN, I've changed my mind on something. Ok, so don't dismiss this idea out of hand as i'm back and forth on the issue as well...but some of these very good bubble teams should be in the NCAA Tournament:

Syracuse, Drexel, Kansas State, Florida State, and Air Force

I'm sure there are some other teams that feel like they were snubbed as well. Now, i'm not saying that they were better than the other bubble teams that made it in. They ARE good enough that they should be in the NCAA tournament though. No, the teams that I am calling out are the teams from conferences that you never hear about at all until its bubble trouble time, the teams that you see on ESPN2 only during championship week and still have the gyms not quite full during their conference championships! I feel like the NCAA needs to have some sort of measuring stick for which of the automatic qualifiers were the 8 worst teams to get in, (and really have no business being in the ncaa tournament in the first place) and they need to have play-in games. Maybe with that extra quality win they will prove that they should be part of a field of the 64 best teams in the 350 some odd team NCAA field. I think they should have a two day event on a neutral court somewhere where these teams need to face off. This year, it would be something like this:

Belmont/Florida A&M
North Texas/Niagra
Weber State/Jackson State
Eastern Kentucky/Central Conn State

What do ya think?

Club Prez
03-12-2007, 05:48 AM
Under your plan, Santa Clara would have had to play an extra game the year they were a 15 seed and knocked off a 2 seed. (Sorry it is too early to remember the exact details - I haven't had my coffee yet).

The small conference teams vs. the football schools is one of the best parts of the the first round.

NJZag
03-12-2007, 06:13 AM
After listening to the Kansas State and Syracuse coaches and watching some of the bracketology coverage on ESPN, I've changed my mind on something. Ok, so don't dismiss this idea out of hand as i'm back and forth on the issue as well...but some of these very good bubble teams should be in the NCAA Tournament:

Syracuse, Drexel, Kansas State, Florida State, and Air Force

I'm sure there are some other teams that feel like they were snubbed as well. Now, i'm not saying that they were better than the other bubble teams that made it in. They ARE good enough that they should be in the NCAA tournament though.

Syracuse ...

Scha-den-freu-de!!!
Clap... clap... clap, clap, clap!!!

... the Orange didn't leave the state of NY for their first 16 games so I'd say that JB was getting almost a "personal message" from the Selection Committee that's he's the ewe-dub of the East. Plus they played a BE schedule that was on the weaker side of what that league could have potentially offered (not all 16 teams meet in a season and the H-A is unbalanced for the teams that do meet). No sorrow at seeing them not make the Dance.

The teams I would have liked to see still make it were Air Force and FSU, which put together credible enough ooc's and league records and simply suffered late season slides.

Birddog
03-12-2007, 06:19 AM
I'll just use one example here, Kansas St. They played absolutely nobody pre conference. They relied on their conference schedule to get them in and that plan failed because although the Big 12 has 3 really good teams, the middle of the roaders are not so great. More importantly, the Big 12 plays in 2 divisions, the North where K St resides is the weaker division by a bunch (Colorado, Nebraska, K St, Mizzou, Iowa St, and Kansas). K st played each of their div pals twice, the South Div teams only once. TT meanwhile had to play two of those three really good teams twice, beating A&M both times and also beating Kansas in their one game. K St's conference record of 10/8 is very misleading, and the committee took note of that. Huggy tried to pull a scheduling Lomar and had about the same success, except Huggy is NITing and Lomar is knitting. Say what you will about Knight, but he knows how to coach and schedule. I'm glad we aren't facing off with TT.
Birddog

john montana
03-12-2007, 06:32 AM
the only one i felt for was florida state. al thornton is one of the best players in the country. i would have liked to see him play in the tournament.

TexasZagFan
03-12-2007, 06:38 AM
I'll just use one example here, Kansas St. They played absolutely nobody pre conference. They relied on their conference schedule to get them in and that plan failed because although the Big 12 has 3 really good teams, the middle of the roaders are not so great. More importantly, the Big 12 plays in 2 divisions, the North where K St resides is the weaker division by a bunch (Colorado, Nebraska, K St, Mizzou, Iowa St, and Kansas). K st played each of their div pals twice, the South Div teams only once. TT meanwhile had to play two of those three really good teams twice, beating A&M both times and also beating Kansas in their one game. K St's conference record of 10/8 is very misleading, and the committee took note of that. Huggy tried to pull a scheduling Lomar and had about the same success, except Huggy is NITing and Lomar is knitting. Say what you will about Knight, but he knows how to coach and schedule. I'm glad we aren't facing off with TT.
Birddog

...didn't he inherit the OOC schedule that he played this year? That's the way it came across the papers down here in TX.

Birddog
03-12-2007, 06:57 AM
...didn't he inherit the OOC schedule that he played this year? That's the way it came across the papers down here in TX.

Yeah, the reporters definitely played that line for Huggy. Do you really believe that he couldn't do anything about it? The Zag's schedule wasn't finalized till Sept IIRC. Had Huggy really wanted to do something about the schedule, he could have IMO. He had a new, relatively young team, and he tried the cupcake routine and it failed. Perhaps more importantly though, the selection comm realized how weak the Big 12 N was (even though it is part of a vaunted BCS Conference) and judged K St for it's achievements or lack of them in conf. I asked the question a couple of weeks ago about why everyone (not nec. on this board) thought the Big 12 would/should get 5 bids. They got the 4th bid on reputation this year. The Big 12 was top heavy with the big 3. After that, the teams were really uneven and unpredictable.

Birddog

TexasZagFan
03-12-2007, 07:16 AM
No question, the Big 12 South was a hornet's nest, with A&M, UT, and Tech in the mix. KU was the only NCAA bound team in the North, and the other schools in that division weren't that stout, save for KSU.

Rubbadub
03-12-2007, 07:40 AM
Although after reading some of these responses i feel the teams' coaches and espn might have duped me into believing these teams were much more deserving, i still feel that they had more of a right to be in the ncaa tournament and had a much better resume then some other schools that made it based on an auto bid. Remember, there are teams out there who aren't historically big time basketball schools and yet were able to get national recognition because they were actually good enough to deserve national recognition. BYU, Butler, VCU, Old Dominion and some other smaller schools have all had better seasons this year than they are used to and earned their way into the big dance. I really don't feel like any small school team in the country can legit. claim that they were snubbed because of lack of recognition in this day and age. Maybe the Polls still have bcs/east coast bias but i don't feel the same about the Selection Committee, not after this snubbing of Syracuse. The selection committee knows how to pick the best at large teams, I just feel it should be opened up to include more at-larges.


Under your plan, Santa Clara would have had to play an extra game the year they were a 15 seed and knocked off a 2 seed. (Sorry it is too early to remember the exact details - I haven't had my coffee yet).

The small conference teams vs. the football schools is one of the best parts of the the first round.

In regard to this one, it's hard bc we feel an urge to defend them as another wcc school...but if they didn't have the resume to get in as an at large...and they were one of those bottom 8 auto-bids to get in...then yes they would have one more game to play in the system i proposed. Since they were good enough to beat a 2 seed, the play in game would have just confirmed that they were good enough to be in the dance right? All the system that i'm proposing's purpose is is that more teams who have a legitimate case to be in the big dance get a chance to be there.

NJZag
03-12-2007, 07:51 AM
the only one i felt for was florida state. al thornton is one of the best players in the country. i would have liked to see him play in the tournament.

Agree with that. Also, gotta admire a coach who refuses to do a "whine and put blame elsewhere" routine about the snub and puts it all on himself and his team for not doing more to assure that a snub could not happen. (Player injury accounted for the late season slide; he takes on the blame for not doing more to adjust around the missing player.)

http://floridastate.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=651813

Rare for an ACC team to also hit the road to play "at" a tiny in-state fellow school, which under LH the Seminoles have been doing in home-and-home fashion with itty bitty Stetson. :clap:

Rubbadub
03-12-2007, 08:11 AM
Very rare indeed...although its rare bc it has no redeeming value...not bc its particularly admirable. ;)

Wolkster
03-12-2007, 08:20 AM
>and they need to have play-in games. Maybe with that extra quality win they will prove that they should be part of a field of the 64 best teams in the 350 some odd team NCAA field.

They already have 'play-in' games. It's called conference tournaments. 65 is perfect. If you add any more it takes away from the regular season and the conference tournaments.

Syracuse played NOBODY on the road in their OCC schedule. They were 5-12 against Top 50 RPI teams. Boeheim whines that they played Drexel, Oklahoma St, and Creighton in OCC, but they LOST all three of those games. They are not an NCAA tourney team this year.

Kansas St was 3-6 in OCC against Top 50 RPI teams. And they played nobody in OCC.

The selection committee is sending a message. The mid-majors are getting better, so you better schedule a decent OCC schedule. You can no longer rest on your in conference laurels, especially with unbalanced scheduling in extra large conferences.

Romar and UW better take notice. The days of playing 10 cupcakes, all at home is over.

CDC84
03-12-2007, 08:32 AM
I have zero sympathy for any teams that have their bubble burst, except in the rare case where a non-BCS conference team plays a tough non-league schedule, then totally dominates their league during the regular season only to bomb out of their conference tourney. If Winthrop would've lost in the Big South final, there were no guarantees that they would have gotten an at large bid. That would've been a legit screw job.

Drexel and 'Cuse are not in the dance, but can you imagine if the committee had put the Orange in over Drexel? Drexel beat 'Cuse at the Carrier Dome.

a13coach
03-12-2007, 08:37 AM
"I would imagine we're one of the few, if not the only team ever in a BCS conference with a 10-win season that did not get in the NCAA tournament. I don't know what the thought process is. What's done is done. There's not much I can do about it."
Notice how Boeheim fails to mention his OOC sched. and how he is playing up his conference. I think the Selection Committee are attempting to send a message about OOC scheduling. Something along the lines of--if you are going to stay at home during OOC play you better win them all, which 'Cuse did not. UW did win all their home OOC games (easier home games than 'Cuse's btw) but then turkeyed their conference play by not being able to win on the road.
Sounds to me like Boeheim is saying, "Let us in we are BCS!"

...If 10-6 in the Big East isn't good enough to get in, then I don't think we should be in the Big East."
Good then leave Jimmy...join the ACC and see how far you get. :)

HillBillyZag
03-12-2007, 10:00 AM
With All the usual crying about teams being left out of the NCAA Tourney field one must realize that regardless of who is selected there will be deserving candidates omitted. Expansion of the field would not solve the problem as it would only water down the team quality. The Conference Tournaments are a product of greed. They denigrate the acomplishment of winning your Conference Championship and allow teams with little or no chance of advancing to weaken the Tourney field. If the Conferences are so desperate for the revenue, why not hold the Conference Tournaments to begin the season and alternate their locations among all the schools in each league. Include the Tourney results in their Conference record. Conference membership should be limited to no more than 10 Teams in a Conference. No Team that finished lower than third in their Conference should be considered. No one twisted the arms of all the Schools that abandoned their previous affiliations and went for instance, to the Big East. Teams that refuse to leave their home confines (Syracuse?. Duke?,) to play competitive opposition should be penalizied come selection time. Make the playing field level for the Mid-Majors (sic.) create new Scholarship rules that are applied evenly among all D1 Schools and go back to requiring that all student athletes on scholarship defer from signing a Professional contract
until at least three years after their High School Class graduates. Force the NBA to put dollars into their developmental league and pay a fair salary to kids who have no interest or are unqualified for College admission. I think these changes would result in a better College basketball game and eliminate a lot of the complaints of poor D1 Tourney selection. What do you think?

NJZag
03-12-2007, 10:07 AM
Very rare indeed...although its rare bc it has no redeeming value...not bc its particularly admirable. ;)

It's a gentlemanly show of respect to a neighboring institution's coach. Also, it picks up a smidgeon of weighted higher value for being a road win. Most of the ACC teams (and BCS schools in general) have neighboring smaller colleges come to them.


http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/120406aab.htm