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Rubbadub
07-21-2008, 10:05 AM
What is prestige? What does a college basketball program have to do to prove its prestige? What program is the most prestigious? And who's to judge?

This summer, we decided to tackle the hundreds of college basketball teams, the thousands of regular-season and postseason wins and losses, the NBA draft picks, the All-Americans and the national titles to come up with a numerical point system to provide unbiased rankings of every college hoops program's success since the start of the 1984-85 season. Normally when you see these rankings, they are the "expert" opinion of one or more people whose knowledge (and sanity) are usually questioned by those who disagree.

But with ESPN's Prestige Rankings, there is no such argument. We let the numbers do the talking. We assigned point values for certain successes (win a national title, earn 25 points) and failures (get your program banned from the NCAA tournament, lose three points), put all the seasons through our big calculator and came up with the No. 1 program (and the No. 300 program) of the past 24 seasons.

So far we're not in 300-51... (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3481843)

...or 50-41. (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3481014&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab1pos1)

UW's at 124
Washington State's 237

BobZag
07-21-2008, 10:28 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3481014

Gonzaga is somewhere in the Top-40. Above is 41-50. Ever since 1994 the Zags have made the postseason with only one exception; that's probably what has given the GU program a boost into the Top-40.

Just for fun.

LongIslandZagFan
07-21-2008, 11:06 AM
Just winning the conference so many times gives us a significant boost.

MDABE80
07-21-2008, 11:28 AM
1. Winning the confernce multiple times
2. Having AA's frequently
3. 4 swt 16's (or better)
4. Few losing seasons - prior to 94 (none since)
5. Overall a very winning record.

It's a fun ESPN article. I'd bet (given the weighting points), GU might be close to the top 30. This program has grown SO much since the old days.

MickMick
07-21-2008, 11:32 AM
This prestige rating is based on quantitative values and not speculation or conjecture. As much as some WCC fans hate the idea of Gonzaga being labeled prestigious, they cannot deny the cold, hard facts.

Zag fans have good reason to take pride in the accomplishments of this program.

xjzico
07-21-2008, 11:57 AM
Going off these numbers, and correct me if I'm wrong, GU would score a 165. Not too shabby.

NCAA Tourney 10x1=10
E8 1x10=10
S16 3x5=15
2nd Rd 2x3=6
Win as 12 seed 1x2=2
NIT 3x1=3 (?)
Reg season champs 11x5=55
WCC tourney champs 9x3=27
20 win season 15x2=30
Losing season 1x-3=-3
1st Team AA 2x3=6
2nd Team AA 1x2=2
NBA Top 10 pick 1x2=2

Thank goodness my boss is a GU Law alum, or I would be so fired.

rich
07-22-2008, 08:38 AM
We made the cut today.

40. Princeton with 93 pts
39. Tulsa
38. Wake
37. Mizzou
36. St. John
35. 'Bama
34. Penn
33. GTech
32. OK State
31. 'Nova with 126 pts

LongIslandZagFan
07-22-2008, 08:39 AM
Well, we are in the top 30 at a minimum as 31-40 came out today and we aren't there. If xjzico's calculations are correct, which I'd have to say they look fairly correct, we should be solidly in the top 30 as well. Our point total is 165 where #31 is at 126. I wouldn't be surprised if we fall in the top 20.

BobZag
07-22-2008, 08:48 AM
Top-20 would be awesome. 160+ points might do it.

Rubbadub
07-22-2008, 09:31 AM
Here's 28 of the 30 that's left...for some reason I can't place the last two.

Kansas
North Carolina
Florida
Duke
Georgetown
Michigan State
UCONN
Kentucky
UCLA
Arizona
Indiana
Maryland
Memphis
Louisville
Syracuse
Texas
Xavier
Gonzaga
UNLV
Stanford
Purdue
Ohio State
Illinois
Michigan
Cincinatti
Oklahoma
Virginia
Arkansas

Akzag
07-22-2008, 10:36 AM
Isn't it 11 NCAA's?

Haven't looked at the lists yet ... but I would have guessed that NC State would have to be in the top 30 as well.

[Nevermind ... they are 52. Jimmy V still seems recent to me.]

zagfan07
07-22-2008, 10:48 AM
I would think Oregon would be in there, but I can't think of the other one.

CalZag
07-22-2008, 10:57 AM
Utah looks to be in the top 30. Probably boosted by Van Horn, Bogut and Miller as lottery picks.

Oregon is #115

Akzag
07-22-2008, 10:58 AM
The Ducks came to mind for me as well ... but they are tied for 115.

I'm still looking for George Mason (found it #100).

Utah ... good get Cal.

rich
07-22-2008, 11:02 AM
that is all.

Akzag
07-22-2008, 11:19 AM
Ah ... how soon we forget.

How about UMass to join Utah in Rubb's top 30.

McZag
07-22-2008, 11:23 AM
Interesting how an NIT berth equals the same number of points as an NCAA berth. Although Making the Sweet 16 scores 3 points higher than WINNING the NIT.

There are a ton of ways to score it but I never associate NIT with prestige.

sittingon50
07-22-2008, 11:30 AM
I might be a little bleary eyed, but I came up with Southern Cal, Temple & (Utah).

rich
07-22-2008, 11:31 AM
11 NCAA berths. John Rillie led us to the dance in '95. He had 96 points in the WCC tourney. Given the format of the tourney, I'm certain that this record still stands.

McZag
07-22-2008, 11:32 AM
Well, we are in the top 30 at a minimum as 31-40 came out today and we aren't there. If xjzico's calculations are correct, which I'd have to say they look fairly correct, we should be solidly in the top 30 as well. Our point total is 165 where #31 is at 126. I wouldn't be surprised if we fall in the top 20.

Making the Top 20 would be quite an accomplishment considering no one could pronounce Gonzaga prior to '99. Just goes to show how incredible the past 10 years have been; and how under appreciated the '92-'98 seasons were. Many 20 win seasons, post season appearances etc.

Nice rallying point going into 08-09 with Daye on the mend and Pargo back in GU Blue. Yes, top 20 since 84-85 would be quite nice.

xjzico
07-22-2008, 11:38 AM
Here's 28 of the 30 that's left...for some reason I can't place the last two.

Temple?

Akzag
07-22-2008, 11:40 AM
USC is #132. UMass was #42. My bad.

Yeah, we are going to have to make room for Temple.

(I found it helps to look at the conference rankings. That lists 51-40029, then there are just the missing to double-check).

sittingon50
07-22-2008, 11:49 AM
Thanks AK. Like I said, bleary eyed. Missed USC.

Colbyspapa
07-22-2008, 12:34 PM
Do we really only have one losing season since 1985??? That is pretty spectacular. Great coaching, consistancy and great players. :D

Akzag
07-22-2008, 02:12 PM
okay ... I got bored. xjz did most of the legwork, I just had some time to double-check and I wanted to see some visual proof.


The formula ;

• National title … 25
• Title game loss … 20
• National semifinal loss … 15
• Elite Eight loss … 10
• Best record in conference's regular season … 5
• 30-plus wins in a season … 5
• Sweet 16 loss … 5
• Conference tournament title … 3
• AP first-team All-American … 3
• Losing in NCAA second round … 3
• Player in top 10 of NBA draft … 2
• NCAA first-round win as a 12-16-seed … 2
• NIT title … 2
• AP second-team All-American … 2
• 20-29 wins in a season … 1
• NCAA tournament berth … 1
• Postseason NIT berth … 1
• AP third-team All-American … 1
• NCAA first-round loss vs. 12-16-seed … -2
• Losing season … -3
• Ban from NCAA tournament … -3

Our actual (please correct as necessary);

• National title … 0
• Title game loss … 0
• National semifinal loss … 0
• Elite Eight loss … 10 (99)
• Best record in conference's regular season … 60 (94,96T,98,99,01,02T,03,04,05,06,07,08)
• 30-plus wins in a season … 0
• Sweet 16 loss … 15 (00,01,06)
• Conference tournament title … 27 (95,99,00,01,02,04,05,06,07)
• AP first-team All-American … 6 (Dickau-02, Ammo-06)
• Losing in NCAA second round … 9 (03,04,05)
• Player in top 10 of NBA draft … 2 (Ammo-06)
• NCAA first-round win as a 12-16-seed … 2
• NIT title … 0
• AP second-team All-American … 2 (Stepp-04)
• 20-29 wins in a season … 15 (92,94,95,96,98,99,00,01,02,03,04,05,06,07,08)
• NCAA tournament berth … 11 (95,99,00,01,02,03,04,05,06,07,08)
• Postseason NIT berth … 3 (94,96,98)
• AP third-team All-American … 0
• NCAA first-round loss vs. 12-16-seed … 0
• Losing season … -3 (90 - 8-20)
• Ban from NCAA tournament … 0


That looks like 159 ... I assumed that best conference record ties would still be applicable. '02 , was a 6-11 matchup.

GoZags
07-22-2008, 03:07 PM
Here's 28 of the 30 that's left...for some reason I can't place the last two.

Kansas
North Carolina
Florida
Duke
Georgetown
Michigan State
UCONN
Kentucky
UCLA
Arizona
Indiana
Maryland
Memphis
Louisville
Syracuse
Texas
Xavier
Gonzaga
UNLV
Stanford
Purdue
Ohio State
Illinois
Michigan
Cincinatti
Oklahoma
Virginia
Arkansas

Virginia is T70 so who's missing if you include Utah and Temple?

zagzilla
07-22-2008, 03:16 PM
Imagine how this list would look if they just included the last 10 years

StocktonIsMyHero
07-22-2008, 03:44 PM
I think it's Murray State. They won the Ohio Valley a ton of times in the 90s/00s and had lots of 20 win seasons... think they won an NCAA game or two over the years too. I might have missed them in the other lists, but I think it's them.

EDIT: Yep... it's got to be them. I just went to their website, and I learned some Racer history... they've got 20 consecutive winning seasons and made 13 trips to the NCAAs since 84. Here is a slice of their media guide... pretty impressive year-by-year results:

https://www.nmnathletics.com/pdf6/90978.pdf?ATCLID=1282412&SPID=2583&DB_OEM_ID=6700&SPSID=38770

Akzag
07-22-2008, 03:54 PM
nice catch on the Racers ... but now another conundrum ... where is Oklahoma?

LynetteG
07-22-2008, 03:59 PM
I thought this was great!

47. BUTLER BULLDOGS, Horizon League
Positives: 11 seasons with at least 20 wins; 7 wins in 7 NCAA berths
Negatives: 6 losing seasons; 0 All-Americans
Total points: 78
Did you know? The Bulldogs have won an NCAA tournament game in each of their past four appearances. It's hard to believe they've had just seven trips there since 1985.

Akzag
07-22-2008, 03:59 PM
Oklahoma did make the list okay ...

Taking Virginia out, putting Temple, Utah, and Murray State in ...

Akzag
07-22-2008, 04:49 PM
The next logical step is ranking them ourselves.

__________________________________________________ _______________
First quick and easy step, those with championships since 1985, please step forward. (in no particular order at this time other than # of championships
SINCE 1985)

3 - Duke
2 - Kansas, UNC, UConn, Kentucky, Florida
1 - Michigan State, Michigan, UCLA, Arizona, Indiana, Maryland, Louisville, Syracuse, Arkansas, UNLV

(Villanova won in 85, but was left out of the top 30)

__________________________________________________ _____________

Fourteen other prospective spots, assumed to be the following;

Georgetown
Memphis
Texas
Xavier
Gonzaga
Stanford
Purdue
Ohio State
Illinois
Cincy
Oklahoma
Temple
Utah
Murray State

___________________________________

Take ten, and make your 30-21 lists.

Akzag
07-22-2008, 05:20 PM
Here's where, pardon me, the BCS schools are at a disadvantage. 5 points for a regular season championship, 3 more for a conference tourny title. But then, they have all of the draft picks & AP's.

My 21-30 in no particular order ... yet.

Murray State
Gonzaga
Oklahoma
Purdue
Michigan
Texas
Arkansas
Utah
UNLV
Memphis

_____________

30 - Purdue
29 - Texas
28 - Oklahoma
27 - Murray State
26 - Michigan
25 - Gonzaga
24 - Utah
23 - Memphis
22 - Arkansas
21 - UNLV

Once and Future Zag
07-22-2008, 06:21 PM
I like the basic concept - but I have to wonder about how they came at those point values - it seems to me that there should be some nominal difference between getting an NCAA berth and an NIT berth - and getting the banhammer from the NCAA should be a worse penalty than 2 losing seasons.

IM (never humble) O

Rubbadub
07-22-2008, 09:13 PM
Virginia is T70 so who's missing if you include Utah and Temple?

Oops!

Butler Guy
07-23-2008, 05:51 AM
For the majority of the conferences, probably 23-25 of them, it is actually easier to make a NCAA than a NIT. In well over half of the conferences, they are not just one-bid NCAA leagues, but one-bid post season leagues overall. Many teams (like Murray State and Penn) accrued points by simply making NCAA Tournaments, without actually winning games. If I were doing to point system, I'd award something nominal for appearances, but REALLY reward winning games, especially games after the first round.

Side note: Id also like to see this for the last 10 years!

Rubbadub
07-23-2008, 08:13 AM
21-30 is out...

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3493497

Zags are 26.

LongIslandZagFan
07-23-2008, 08:15 AM
We're #26. Considering we really only made the run that we did starting just 10 or so years ago, it is amazing where we are.

ZagNative
07-23-2008, 08:20 AM
I'm puzzled by one Elite Eight being a negative. I guess we should have had more than one.

26. GONZAGA BULLDOGS, West Coast
Positives: 21 conference titles (12 regular-season; 9 tourney); 15 20-win seasons; 11 NCAA berths
Negatives: 1 losing season; 1 Elite Eight
Total points: 159
Did you know? The pride of Spokane, Wash., is the highest-ranked school without a 30-win season under its belt. But what the Zags have done the past decade is astounding: 10 straight NCAA tournament appearances while averaging more than 26 wins per season.

Radbooks
07-23-2008, 08:37 AM
I was puzzled by that too, ZN! How can that be a negative? I guess they thought we should have had more tourney success...

brian_sun
07-23-2008, 08:45 AM
Consider Gonzaga's seeding position in the NCAA tourney, 1 Elite 8 is indeed a negative. I bet the 25 teams rank above them all have more than 1 E-8 appearance, and probably all have F-4 appearance.

jazzdelmar
07-23-2008, 08:45 AM
stop whining, 26th is about right and a source of pride.....

ZagNative
07-23-2008, 08:56 AM
Don't get me wrong. I think #26 is terrific! Just easily distracted, I guess.

Pleasant Peninsula
07-23-2008, 09:08 AM
Consider Gonzaga's seeding position in the NCAA tourney, 1 Elite 8 is indeed a negative.

I dunno about that. Gonzaga's only been seeded to be an elite eight team once (when they were a #2 seed).

Radbooks
07-23-2008, 09:23 AM
I'm NOT whining, Jazz. Being puzzled about something isn't the same as whining. I think 26th is wonderful too and great for us.


stop whining, 26th is about right and a source of pride.....

MickMick
07-23-2008, 09:53 AM
This "analysis" goes back to 1984. Use the same criteria for the past dozen years and the Zags move up. Butler moves up, Kentucky moves down, etc. etc.

McZag
07-23-2008, 10:31 AM
Now if someone told you in 1985 that by 2008, the Gonzaga program would produce the 26th best showing in NCAA basketball, how loud would you have laughed? Surely WSU , Oregon, OSU, UW - somebody would be higher than GU. And GU in the top 50 would have been impossible to understand. But here it is: 26

GU has had exactly one losing season since 1985. Alot can be said about the post-Fitz years. But when you realize that the team was Danny's from 1985-1997, it goes to show just how solid a foundation he quietly and thanklessly built.

Our Thanks to Coach Fitzgerald and all the coaching staff for building one of the countries true great success stories here at GU!

MDABE80
07-23-2008, 10:44 AM
26 is spectacular. Instead of the E8....they could have said 4 swt 16's or better since the 98-99 season. This upcoming season is 2008-9 season so we could be 5 swt 16's or better in the past 10 years....ZN is my math wrong?

Remember...before our last 2 seasons in which we terribly fizzled compare to prior years, only 3 other schools had done what GU had done with it's NCAA appearances.

This is big deal. If you look at the criteria on ESPN's assessment, most are agreed upon measurements and outcomes. No matter the grumbling on other boards about "bias", etc....what we have are usual and customary data points for evaluation. GU's done amazingly well. The track record in the past 9 seasons is nothing short of spectacular. Some have become complacent about our own success. Hondo, JHoops ( who we rarely hear from....dangit). Gamagin and a few others know how it used to be.

GU's turnaround is storybook ....still. And we'll continue to get better.

Rubbadub
07-23-2008, 12:51 PM
Anyone want to post their idea of the top 10 (without researching how many points they'll actually get, of course)?

Akzag
07-23-2008, 12:53 PM
I'll be putting up mine in a while ... without researching, just getting organized.

(hey, I was only off by one on predicting where we would be.)

Akzag
07-23-2008, 01:20 PM
The next logical step is ranking them ourselves.

__________________________________________________ _______________
First quick and easy step, those with championships since 1985, please step forward. (in no particular order at this time other than # of championships
SINCE 1985)

3 - Duke
2 - Kansas, UNC, UConn, Kentucky, Florida
1 - Michigan State, Michigan, UCLA, Arizona, Indiana, Maryland, Louisville, Syracuse, Arkansas, UNLV

(Villanova won in 85, but was left out of the top 30)

__________________________________________________ _____________

Fourteen other prospective spots, assumed to be the following;

Georgetown
Memphis
Texas
Xavier
Gonzaga
Stanford
Purdue
Ohio State
Illinois
Cincy
Oklahoma
Temple
Utah
Murray State

___________________________________

Take ten, and make your 30-21 lists.


So, out of the pool go Murray State, Purdue, Maryland, Ohio State, Gonzaga, Stanford, Utah Illinois, Michigan, and Florida ...

Leaving us with ...

Oklahoma
Temple
Cincy
Xavier
Texas
Memphis
Georgetown
Duke
Kansas
UNC
Kentucky
Michigan State
UCLA
Arizona
Indiana
Louisville
Syracuse
Arkansas
UNLV
UConn


... look right?

Akzag
07-23-2008, 01:29 PM
This time, I'll start at the top - just to thin the herd - so to speak.

1 - Duke - I really don't see how it could be anybody else. 3 trophies, 30+ win seasons, ACC regular season and tournys. Top 10 picks, AAs.
2- UConn
3 - Michigan State
4 - Kansas
5 - UCLA
6 - UNC
7 - Arizona
8 - Cincy
9 - Xavier
10 - Georgetown

leaving Oklahoma, Temple, UNLV, Arkansas, Syracuse, Louisville, Indiana, Kentucky, Memphis, Texas.

Akzag
07-23-2008, 01:39 PM
11 - Kentucky
12 - Indiana
13 - Memphis
14 - Syracuse
15 - Texas
16 - Temple
17 - Arkansas
18 - UNLV
19 - Louisville
20 - Oklahoma

Akzag
07-24-2008, 11:24 AM
Wow, I shanked.

Here's today's 20-11 (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3493766)

20 - Temple
19 - Cincy
18 - Texas
17 - Xavier
16 - Louisville
15 - Arkansas
14 - Memphis
13 - Indiana
12 - Oklahoma
11 - Michigan State

Akzag
07-24-2008, 11:30 AM
And then, there were 10 ... (in no particular order)


Duke
UConn
Kansas
UCLA
UNC
Arizona
Georgetown
Syracuse
Kentucky
UNLV

Butler Guy
08-19-2008, 07:59 AM
Prestige Rankings (since 2000); Gonzaga @ 15 (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/41680-ncaa-basketball-the-real-prestige-rankings-2000-2008)

GoZags
08-19-2008, 08:10 AM
Good report.

Going back another year (which would be an even decade) Gonzaga moves to 13 with the added Elite 8. GU passes Pitt and Arizona.

So, just based on the dance and nothing else -- GU ranks 13th over the past 10 years using this criteria.

Who'd have thunk this 10+ years ago -- with GU on probation.

BobZag
08-19-2008, 09:20 AM
I won't be happy until the Zags are Top 10, babyyyy!

Reborn
08-19-2008, 10:28 AM
Third on West coast behind UCLA and Arizona is real good, and edging Stanford is nice. I think 15th is very realistic for the Zags, and great. I don't see a top 10 overall ranking for this decade as long as Olson is at Arizona. When he retires, there could be a chance. Maybe a realistic goal for the decade to come beginning in '10.

Imagine the team if Daye stayed: Sacre (senior), Daye (senior), Gray (senior), Meech (Junior), Arop (Sophomore), Bol (Sophomore), Poling (Juniior), Gibbs (Junior), and more to come.

Sure, most likely Daye will be gone. However, by then Arop is going to be a scoring machine, and along with Gray and Meech they will be a formidable backcourt trio. Bol, Poling, Sacre and others will be a force down low.

If Daye stays through his Junior year, our next two years should be very, very good...setting the table for '10. '09 will be a very good year too, even though we'll be reloading. We'll have Bouldin (a Senior) Daye (Junior) and Arop a Freshman. With Meech a Soph. Meech will take over the point very nicely in '09. Matt or Gray will be All American 2nd team. Question for '09 is who will be ready to fill in at the #4 after Austin leaves? Will it be Bol? Will it be Poling? Or a new rising star? Each year will be interestng.

Question! Who have we signed for '09? And who is high on the list and is close to signing? I know we're close to signing a Big #4. That will be great.