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KSTATEZAG
07-04-2008, 02:25 PM
What's the chances we don't see Matt Bouldin or Steven Gray in the starting lineup next season?
Pargo
Downs
Daye
Heytvelt
Sacre

or (I know this one might be a little out there but...)
Pargo
Downs
Daye
Ira!
Heytvelt

or, one more to tempt your imagination...
Pargo
Bouldin
Downs
Daye
Heytvelt

---
So many combos...I almost feel sorry for Fewie:p

KSTATEZAG
07-04-2008, 02:30 PM
I'm adding one more for you science fiction fans...maybe "strange but true" by the end of the season:
The World's tallest lineup-
Downs (6'8")
Daye (6'10")
Heytvelt (6'11")
Sacre (7'0")
Foster (7'4")
---
That's an average height of 6'11.5"
Mind boggling.

GoZAGsMang
07-04-2008, 02:42 PM
I have done some calculations and the odds are 0%.

(This is coming from the guy who got ridiculed for saying that Few will mix it up this yr)

Bouldin was the leading scorer and Grey was a stud for a frosh.

BobZag
07-04-2008, 04:15 PM
Hellooooooo.

Steven Gray.

zag67
07-04-2008, 04:47 PM
I also agree and say the chances are zero.

My set is not original:
Pargo, Gray, Bouldin, Daye and Heytfelt

First off would be:
Downes and Sacre

Then:
Ira, Foster, Meeche, and Gibbs

RenoZag
07-04-2008, 05:05 PM
Gray might be the leading scorer this year. . .no way he doesn't start.

Pargo
Bouldin
Gray
Daye
Heytvelt

Sacre & Downs are the next to get the most PT. . .everybody else is looking at mop up minutes

RenoZag
07-04-2008, 05:09 PM
I'm adding one more for you science fiction fans...maybe "strange but true" by the end of the season:
The World's tallest lineup-
Downs (6'8")
Daye (6'10")
Heytvelt (6'11")
Sacre (7'0")
Foster (7'4")
---
That's an average height of 6'11.5"
Mind boggling.

The only thing boggling is Foster cracking the starting line-up. Just sayin'

KSTATEZAG
07-04-2008, 05:31 PM
I also agree and say the chances are zero.

My set is not original:
Pargo, Gray, Bouldin, Daye and Heytfelt

First off would be:
Downes and Sacre

Then:
Ira, Foster, Meeche, and Gibbs

It seems as though most think that Micah will be a bench player...this really doesn't jive with the way coach works rotations.
As long as they have sufficient talent (which MD has) seniors almost always start.
Just Sayin...;)

MickMick
07-04-2008, 05:49 PM
I agree with zag67

zag67
07-04-2008, 06:04 PM
Kstate, in most years I would say that you are correct. That is if a sernior was of the same level as another, then the senior would start. But this is not most years. You have all 3 starting guards returning. The only way that I can see this happening is if Gray or Bouldin would agree with the coaches and all of them envolved feel good about it. You do not take a person that was starting and not start him because someone else is a senior. I think that Micah is going to play as many minutes as they do and in many games more. There also may be some teams where (due to matchups defensively) we might see Micah start.

Also I am saying this assuming that they all come back and are playing better than last year and that there are no injuries to worry about.

skan72
07-04-2008, 06:07 PM
I'm sorry, I watched those guys in pick up games and there is no chance ever ever ever of Downs not starting...did I mention never ever ever yet?
Unless he becomes hampered by injuries again.
But I figure it will look something like this
1-Pargo
2-Bouldin
3/4-Daye
4/3-Downs
5-Heytvelt
or
1-Pargo
2-Gray
3/4-Daye
4/3-Downs
5-Heytvelt

But I figure it will more than likely be the first combo. But I can't see Downs, watching him this summer and seeing how much bigger he is now in terms of muscle, not starting. It just won't happen.

cjm720
07-04-2008, 06:18 PM
Downs talent is unquestioned. What is in question is whether he does in a game what he´s coached. He was way too hesitant in some games and way too agressive in wrong situations.

It would be an absolute shock if Few doesn´t start Gray, Pargo, and Bouldin. As far as Heytvelt and Daye are concerned, if they´re committed and healthy I can´t see them coming off the bench. Sorry, Mr. Downs...but I think there´s a you can be the best 6th man in the country and significantly contribute to our final four run :) go zags!!!

skan72
07-04-2008, 06:34 PM
I predict Downs will not be coming off the bench.

zag67
07-04-2008, 06:58 PM
I think that the coaches, Micah, Steven, and Matt will work this out. I think all of them are going to play lots of time and play hard. They just have to find the correct mix to give the team the best kick start at the beginning and then know who does the best coming off the bench and make it happen.

KSTATEZAG
07-04-2008, 07:01 PM
I think you're on to something here.
3 great players, 2 slots.
This is going to be an interesting season.

VinnyZag
07-04-2008, 09:21 PM
A word regarding performance in these summer pickup games:
Remember last year, when the star of the summer pickup circuit was Ira Brown? I'm just sayin' ... being a superstar in the summer pickup games doesn't necessarily mean a lot.

roxdoc
07-04-2008, 09:53 PM
If observations about Downs are correct, it sounds like Matt is on the bubble. Nice problem for the team to have.

BroncoZAG615
07-04-2008, 10:12 PM
There's 0 chance Matt will be coming off the bench this year. It's just not realistic, look at Few's track record with starting players and how much loyalty he has.

Zero chance. Four lineup spots are set with Pargo, Matt, Daye, Josh. I think Micah may start the year as a starter but Steven is just too good to be on the bench.

tyra
07-04-2008, 10:36 PM
Someone with a better memory can help us here in the ongoing question of who starts. The most common conflict is between either Bouldin/Gray OR Downs. But my question is: When has Few ever "demoted" someone from one season to the next (except for injury)? I honestly don't remember. Anyone?

VinnyZag
07-04-2008, 10:59 PM
Someone with a better memory can help us here in the ongoing question of who starts. The most common conflict is between either Bouldin/Gray OR Downs. But my question is: When has Few ever "demoted" someone from one season to the next (except for injury)? I honestly don't remember. Anyone?

Pierre-Marie Altidore Cespedes comes immediately to mind.

skan72
07-04-2008, 11:23 PM
A word regarding performance in these summer pickup games:
Remember last year, when the star of the summer pickup circuit was Ira Brown? I'm just sayin' ... being a superstar in the summer pickup games doesn't necessarily mean a lot.

First of all to whoever it was, if you are going to use "Steven Gray is just too good to come off the bench" as your argument...well Micah Downs is just too good to come off the bench.

The quote: I was at a team camp last summer and watched them scrimmage 5 nights in a row and Ira Brown did not impress me at all. He couldn't shoot, or really get by anyone. The only accomplishment he made was that he was easily the MOST jacked guy on the court.

roxdoc
07-04-2008, 11:29 PM
I agree that Coach has been "faithful" with starters, but I would argue that "back in the day" it was pretty obvious who the top 5 players were and easy to maintain a bias. As things have progressed we are now blessed with some pretty high level talent and I fervently hope that competitive showing will take the place of "same old, same old".

MississppiZag
07-05-2008, 06:45 AM
I'm hoping for...

Pargo
Gray
Downs
Daye
Heytvelt

Between Bouldin, Gray, and Downs, Matt seems like the most likely to be comfortable and suited to coming off the bench. We can not let Gray's D and shooting ability sit the beginning of games. If Downs or Gray does not play up to par, the Matt should start. As far as Downs, he might be one of the best overall talents on our team, and he should be hungry as ever, as this is his last year. This lineup gives us the best combination of OFF and DEF, and can stop teams, and score at a prolific clip.

I would be a little shocked if this was not the starting lineup for game one, but who knows there is 4 months for improvement from all of the guys. Would not hurt if Sacre was a starter:)

Nevtelen
07-05-2008, 08:29 AM
I agree that there is a 0 percent chance Bouldin won't start. Micah certainly has the talent to start, but Gray did get the start over him last year so we'll see whather Micah's reported domincance in pick-up games translates to the court/practice. I do think that Gray and Micah are both very excellent candidates for great 6th men - both can come in and impact both sides of the court very quickly. It'll be interesting to see what happens.

The rest of the spots are, with little doubt in my mind:

Josh, Daye, Bouldin, Pargo.

cjm720
07-05-2008, 06:19 PM
I'm hoping for...

Pargo
Gray
Downs
Daye
Heytvelt

Between Bouldin, Gray, and Downs, Matt seems like the most likely to be comfortable and suited to coming off the bench. We can not let Gray's D and shooting ability sit the beginning of games. If Downs or Gray does not play up to par, the Matt should start. As far as Downs, he might be one of the best overall talents on our team, and he should be hungry as ever, as this is his last year. This lineup gives us the best combination of OFF and DEF, and can stop teams, and score at a prolific clip.

I would be a little shocked if this was not the starting lineup for game one, but who knows there is 4 months for improvement from all of the guys. Would not hurt if Sacre was a starter:)

What makes you think that Bouldin would be comfortable coming off the bench? Makes no sense...our most prolific recruit besides Daye and a do it all guy that started every game. Downs got 7 minutes in a do or die game against Davidson...just sayin

zagco
07-05-2008, 06:36 PM
Based on what Zagco saw last year from all the players we have coming back this year, he will literally crap his pants, hire a psychologist to examine Mark Few's head, and maybe skydive nude if Steven Gray does not start and play huge minutes every game.

MississppiZag
07-05-2008, 07:13 PM
What does not make sense? Matt seems like the one kid that would be MOST comfortable off the bench. Downs seemed to play more attentively when starting and seemed disinterested at times off the bench. I feel like he is a better defender, shooter, and driver, when healthy. I feel that Gray towards the end of the season was flat out better than Bouldin, in every aspect of the game. Bouldin is a good contributor(hell he was the leading scorer), but i think the team will be better with coming off the bench. No way Gray does not start.

Sorry if that comment offended you CJM, did not want to get jumped on for giving an opinion. I just like Gray and Downs as starters better.:D

I agree with Zagco, i will be right there with you if Gray does not start. Sorry to the Bouldin fans, especially CJM, but Gray is just flat out better. Don't get me wrong Bouldin is a good player, and will once again be a top scorer. Bouldin is a better passer and that is where it ends. Gray defends, shoots, and makes better decisions, IMO. I will be shocked if Gray does not start and a little upset if Downs does not. But i do feel that Few will start Bouldin, not sure why though. Maybe its a trust thing.

I will listen if someone wants to say why Bouldin should start over Gray or Downs. What ever is best for the team is what i want, if it takes Bouldin to start for us to win, then lets do it.

MickMick
07-05-2008, 07:50 PM
Competition breeds excellence. A wealth of talent is a good thing.

I like Matt and Gray as starters. I like seeing them pushed for playing time as well.

MississppiZag
07-05-2008, 09:02 PM
Well put. In regards to the battle between Gray, Bouldin, and Downs, the two that prove and play the best in the summer, deserve to be the starters. Period. If it is Bouldin, i will root just as hard, i just like Downs as a starter better. The length and shooting put him over Bouldin in my predicted lineup. That's my opinion. THE COACH will probably have Bouldin, and i can live with that.lol:)

Zag79
07-05-2008, 11:27 PM
Downs seemed to play more attentively when starting and seemed disinterested at times off the bench. I feel like he is a better defender, shooter, and driver, when healthy.

agreed. if matt doesnt score 20+ out there micah is the better overall player. i want them both to perform well and start.

ZagsGoZags
07-06-2008, 12:06 AM
Last year Micah Downs almost never started. This was with Steven being a freshman and needing to prove himself in the first ten games after his injury healed enough to play. Downs also did not generally start when Josh was out, or when Matt played poorly.

I expect that Few may start him a few times next year, but generally won't. He will get tons of minutes, I think, if he plays better this year than he has ever played before, especially on D. IMHO

spudzag
07-06-2008, 07:58 AM
I would hope that Few goes into practice first day and says, "I have no favorites, you are going to have to earn a starting spot and the minutes you get off the bench."

Clear the slate, let the cream rise to the top!

I'm really not worried about the guard spots. My concern is having three guys ready to rotate at 4 and 5. I'm not convinced that Josh is going to be in game shape after wearing a boot all summer.

KSTATEZAG
07-06-2008, 08:37 AM
I would hope that Few goes into practice first day and says, "I have no favorites, you are going to have to earn a starting spot and the minutes you get off the bench."

Clear the slate, let the cream rise to the top!

I'm really not worried about the guard spots. My concern is having three guys ready to rotate at 4 and 5. I'm not convinced that Josh is going to be in game shape after wearing a boot all summer.

Abe, Medzag any thoughts on this?
With the little information we have on Josh, what's the prognosis.

ZagMania
07-06-2008, 01:05 PM
Micah, Gray, and Bouldin all have the talent to start, but I think that you have to think about putting these guys in the best possible situations for them to succeed. In particular, that means letting Bouldin play against smaller, weaker guards and limit the amount that he is matched up with taller more athletic wings which is what will happen with a Pargo, Gray, Bouldin lineup.

Have Bouldin and Gray split the time at the 2 and whenever Pargo needs a breather at the point, and occasionally the 3 guard lineup. Thats 35 minutes for Pargo, and around 25-27 for Stephen and Matt. A few minutes left over for the frosh guards. Micah gets the bulk of the minutes at the wing (27), with Ira! filling in (8) and a little for Daye when he's not at the 4.

cair3
07-06-2008, 02:35 PM
Pargo=best point guard- will start
Gray...best shooter, doesn't create on offense for someone else
Bouldin... inconsistent with shot and tournovers... plays best as a shooting guard complemented by micah.
Micah... great athlete, hustle and defense, but not a smart player, horrific dribbler and weak at attacking the rim (exception is on fast break when he is very good at attacking rim.
Daye... best talent... should start
Hytvelt... best big when healthy and his mind is right.

I would say that Micah has to start because bouldin did not seem to play well as the three with Gray on the court at the same time. He was best when he could take smaller guards down to the block post them and run off screens.

I would have Gray come off the bench and let pargo run the show with micah as an athlete and most of the plays going through daye and josh.

CDC84
07-06-2008, 03:11 PM
I continue to have issues with the Pargo/Gray/Bouldin 3 guard attack. It's something that elite teams can easily matchup against because 2 of the 3 are not overtly athletic, and those 2 play at just about the same speed. The 3 guard attack really only works when 2 of the 3 guards are speed demons. Ideally, you want all 3 to have speed.

The next question becomes, what does Gonzaga have that could give the elite teams trouble. Well, I cannot think of many teams next year who are going to have Gonzaga's size and length in the frontcourt. But the problem with starting Sacre alongside Heytvelt is that if either guy gets in foul trouble, there is no true big man backup besides Foster. On the other hand, if you start Downs and Daye together with Heytvelt, there just isn't much beef in there. In other words, no matter what lineup you go with, there are going to be question marks.

And the question marks point toward Gonzaga really needing one more player.

This is why I continue to say that the gamble on Theo Davis that didn't work out is really unfortunate. When Theo was signed, it sure looked like a Pargo/Bouldin-Gray/Daye/Davis/Heytvelt lineup for 2008/09. The coaches would be going into this season with less decisions to make.

JLGutrocks
07-06-2008, 03:51 PM
Pierre-Marie Altidore Cespedes comes immediately to mind.

Zach Gourde as well.

spudzag
07-06-2008, 04:10 PM
I continue to have issues with the Pargo/Gray/Bouldin 3 guard attack. It's something that elite teams can easily matchup against because 2 of the 3 are not overtly athletic, and those 2 play at just about the same speed. The 3 guard attack really only works when 2 of the 3 guards are speed demons. Ideally, you want all 3 to have speed.

The next question becomes, what does Gonzaga have that could give the elite teams trouble. Well, I cannot think of many teams next year who are going to have Gonzaga's size and length in the frontcourt. But the problem with starting Sacre alongside Heytvelt is that if either guy gets in foul trouble, there is no true big man backup besides Foster. On the other hand, if you start Downs and Daye together with Heytvelt, there just isn't much beef in there. In other words, no matter what lineup you go with, there are going to be question marks.

And the question marks point toward Gonzaga really needing one more player.

This is why I continue to say that the gamble on Theo Davis that didn't work out is really unfortunate. When Theo was signed, it sure looked like a Pargo/Bouldin-Gray/Daye/Davis/Heytvelt lineup for 2008/09. The coaches would be going into this season with less decisions to make.

Amen

JohnOGU
07-06-2008, 09:45 PM
loyalty should not even be a factor in the line up. The best players should play. without a doubt gray was impressive. from what i've heard from credible sources, the difference between last years mica and this years micah is a huge improvement.

JP, Gray, Downs, Daye, and Heytvelt. Bouldin off the bench.

MickMick
07-07-2008, 12:43 AM
I have believed all along that the big weakness for Gonzaga is ball handling...as a team.

Tennessee might rob them like blind men. Don't get me wrong though. I think the Zags have a chance to be very, very good. But I can easily envision them losing in a single elimination tournament (again) because of team ball handling.

Flashbacks of the UCLA game I guess. JP Batista gets cornered/trapped followed up by DRav dribbling through a minefield of hands before letting the ball get away to the opposition. There goes the game. That was a great Gonzaga team too. Those elite teams really have a way of exposing you.

Substituting Micah for Matt does not address the ball handling woes. Indeed, the problem gets worse with Micah inserted. If Micah could play off the dribble (with a hand in his face) he would be almost Ammo-like. The problem is that he can't. He doesn't compensate with a great shooting percentage either. I do like Micah in the lineup if the Zags decide to start running again. But they seem to be built for (and content with using) the half court offense.

I would personally like to see Meech in the mix. The Zags will continue to turn the over the ball at the worst possible moments until they seriously address team ball handling. Frankly...I don't see Matt or Micah helping in that regard. Although they are very talented players that bring diverse skills that will help the team, they don't help the team's biggest weakness.........handles.

Having to choose between Matt or Micah, I will choose the better ball handler......Matt.

Zag79
07-07-2008, 08:28 PM
well after seeing the post or two on micahs ball handling or lack there of i had to go to the tapes. im not sure i saw MD having any issues handling the rock, and definatley not more so than matt. for a guard matt has some of the worst ball control ive ever seen. he needs to stick to the cutting and posting game and let the ball control run through other people until they find him. matt was most effective when moving without the ball and creating when he received the pass. micah is fine handling the ball, and his moves are excellent. maybe with more PT this year you will catch a glimpse of that.

MickMick
07-07-2008, 10:47 PM
well after seeing the post or two on Micah's ball handling or lack there of i had to go to the tapes. I'm not sure i saw MD having any issues handling the rock, and definitely not more so than Matt. for a guard Matt has some of the worst ball control Ive ever seen. he needs to stick to the cutting and posting game and let the ball control run through other people until they find him. Matt was most effective when moving without the ball and creating when he received the pass. Micah is fine handling the ball, and his moves are excellent. maybe with more PT this year you will catch a glimpse of that.


I have the recordings as well. We are seeing different things. Or maybe seeing what we want to see.

For me, this is less an issue of comparing Matt and Micah to each other and more of comparing both Matt and Micah to skilled defensive opposition.

I still regard ball handling as an overall team weakness. The players have strengths in other areas that may compensate for it though. The Zags will be very good no doubt. But to get to rarefied air, they must overcome a couple persistent obstacles.