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cjm720
06-18-2008, 01:13 PM
I define "the most important player" as one that will propel GU to the Final 4; one that without their presence we have no shot of making the Final 4.


My vote: Josh Heytvelt.


Last year I thought Pargo was the most important player for our overall success. Towards the end of the season, however, it became evident that as important as he is we were not a team that would make a deep run without 1) a go-to-guy and 2) a big man that could score and board, draw defenders, and open up our offense.

I think another year of experience together, and hopefully Austin's development, will sort out the go-to-guy issue. To me the key will be whether Josh is healthy, and can stay healthy. If he's healthy and dedicated to re-establish his dominant play, coupled with the talent surrounding him, I truly believe the sky's the limit for this team. Don't get me wrong, this is Pargo's team and there will be several contributors but for us to make a Final 4 appearance, we have to have JH be the player we know he can be.

What are your thoughts? GO ZAGS!!!!!!!

TacomaZAG
06-18-2008, 01:49 PM
that we will go as far as Josh takes us in 2008-2009, I think the most important player in making that happen is Rob Sacre. If Rob is able to shore up the 5 then it will allow Josh to play the 4 a lot more, the position he seems to be most comfortable playing. And it dominoes from there, with Austin/Micah at the 3, Matt and Stephen at the 2, and JP/Frosh at the point. If Josh is forced to play mostly 5, then everyone else moves up a number and we're back to the 3 guard offense (JP, Matt, and Stephen) that was used a lot last year (unsuccessfully, IMO).

Rob doesn't have to be a 20/10 guy to be effective, maybe 4-6 points, 6-8 boards, and control the paint with that big body. Also, I hope that Will can contribute this year, to eat minutes, grab rebounds, and block shots.

I can't wait till November............

Go ZAGS

BobZag
06-18-2008, 02:02 PM
Robert Sacre.

Followed by Josh and Matt.

Nevtelen
06-18-2008, 03:03 PM
Really tough call. I'm temped to side with TacomaZag because I think he's hit it on the nose with Josh and Sacre and how important each is at their position. However, I think that the single most important player next year could be Austin. Daye, if he gets stronger, will have the ability to really dominate. He can be the go-to guy in the offense. I've been watching a couple of the games again and I think Bouldin was most often the go-to guy in the offense (based on his stellar games earlier in the year), but that hurt tremendously when he had an off game. Daye just has the psychological make-up to be that guy. If he can be the go-to scorerer, it'll make the offense that much more sure.

spudzag
06-18-2008, 03:41 PM
Good points all. But we need several players need to kick it up a notch. We another level of play from at least three; Rob, Josh, Austin, Matt or Micah.

MickMick
06-18-2008, 04:07 PM
We need:

Austin Daye's scoring
Josh Heytvelt's athleticism
Rob Sacre's interior presence (shotblocking and rebounding)
Jeremy Pargo's handles
Matt Bouldin's interior post up (mismatches against shorter guards.)
Micah Downs adding immediate offense off of the bench.


Without any of the above, the Zags have no shot at a final four. Sorry...I can't point to one player. They all have to step up.

bigblahla
06-18-2008, 04:14 PM
It's not hard to agree with BZ on this one Big Rob can change this team by his play in the middle.

Has he caught up with the speed of D1 hoops?

Has he figured out you don't have to put the ball below your waist under the basket when you're a seven footer?

Can he control his fouls and use his feet and body to defend the key?

If Big Rob has solved those issues the sky is the limit for this team and having a healthy Josh would only make it better.

There were glimpses of the player Rob can become last year but I think our overall success this year will depend on how fast and how far into that player Rob's evolved.

I expect Steven, Matt, Jeremy, Austin and Josh if he's healthy to all be better than last year but I'm really hoping that this year Micah shines. He's a tough matchup and I think he still has something he wants to prove at GU.

But going back to Big Rob the Zags will be tough to beat if he's a man in the middle.

Just my opinion!

Go!! Zags!!!

Once and Future Zag
06-18-2008, 04:51 PM
Since the end of last season I've been saying our success level is going to be keyed to Sacre's growth as a player- barring any freak injuries of course.

If Rob Sacre even puts up Sean Mallon level numbers and takes ownership of the paint - that lets Josh roam around a bit more, which has to be terrifying to game plan for. We're a strong Final Four contender in this scenario.

If Sacre doesn't own the paint, then Josh has to spend more time as the 5, and I think we peak out at the Sweet 16.

MontanaZag
06-18-2008, 07:28 PM
Anytime you have a talent that could potentially be a first team all-american, he is the key to your success. Talk about matchup nightmare! Austin Daye is the NOW, and maybe the future of this program, if he doesn't leave to be a certain lottery pick. Enjoy the show!

JAGzag
06-18-2008, 07:30 PM
Sorry, but this one is a no-brainer. While we all hope Sacre will make the "sophomore" leap and give some productive minutes, no one and I mean no one, will mean more to this team than Josh. Period. If he isn't hurt, plays to his potential, stays out of trouble, has his head in the game, etc., etc., this team is a contender.

Without Josh, we're weak again down low. I think Rob will produce and be a star, just not after one year of D-1 ball. Right now, we need JH. His production will open up the floor for everyone else.

gamagin
06-18-2008, 07:50 PM
we are screwed. We need a team. Like the Celtics. Sure there are great players but together they make a great team. KG had a bad night, the rest picked up the slack. that's why they are great.

I don't expect anyone to carry the Zags.

I expect each to carry his load and each to make sure everyone else's load is manageable and to celebrate each victory and the entire season as a team effort.

The most important player will be the one with the ball. And the ball should be handled by everyone.

The open man will shoot and the rest will react as a team and put it back underneath if it doesn't go in the first time, or, if it goes in, the rest will hustle downcourt to await an opportunity to deny the other guy the pleasure of shooting without extreme difficulty.

Us fans will have difficulty telling who it is that's making this good, talented team great because the answer will be the whole team will be great because they are removing the obstacles of their teammates.

The team, the results, will be great, if they can really buy into the sort of selfless play we just saw the Celtics display. Here's hoping.

Go Zags !

zag67
06-18-2008, 08:04 PM
First great question.

My put goes with Josh. If he can come back and improve on what he showed in the first half of his sophmore year, then I think that will propel us to the next level.

But there are many other pieces that also have to be in place.
1. The whole team has to learn to play great "team" defense. Know when and who to double and work within the system.
2. The whole team needs to work on not doing the "stupid" turnovers (and that includes offensive fouls)
3. JP needs to increase his leadership, assists, and midrange (including free throws) game.
4. Austin, Robert and Steven need to make the freshman to sophmore jump that we are all looking for. Robert in the middle and Austin in the decision making for taking over certain situations.
5. Micah needs to make the same improvement next year that he did this year. I think that his defense was super, and now it is time to return and turn on his offense.
6. Matt needs to work on when to post and when to take over shots (or pass).
7. Ira needs to help be the leader and use his physical assets against certain teams.
8. The new freshmen learn their rolls and merge their abilities with the rest of the team.

CaliforniaZaggin'
06-18-2008, 08:10 PM
I, as well, think it'll be Josh. Jeremy, Austin, and Matt will be extremely valuable pieces, of course, but the Zags have depth on the wing. However, Josh, as mentioned, is our only player right now that can be effective offensively with his back to the basket. Also, if he regains the spring in those legs, he can be strong defensive player as well.

75Zag
06-18-2008, 09:07 PM
A powerful and well conditioned Josh H. playing at the level he did before the mushroom incident equals success in March.

A grumpy, injured or otherwise ineffective Josh H. is likely to lead to a "3 peat" of one-and-done NCAA appearances for GU.

roxdoc
06-18-2008, 09:54 PM
What TacomaZag said. Sacre is key. He doesn't have to have big numbers, just solidly fill the hole at 5 - it's essential to be adequate at 5 for a FF bid. Josh may have a good year, and I really hope he does, but it won't be playing 5. Its a team sport and everyone will have to step up, but if you have to pick the 5 spot is where we are most vulnerable.

Scotto
06-18-2008, 10:02 PM
I think they need more from Matt Bouldin. I felt he was invisible at times last year. He needs to be one of the Zags best players every night.

Zag79
06-18-2008, 10:25 PM
rob and matt. i really feel that Josh and PGo will come out and have great seasons but if we are to go far matt has to stop being so inconsistent and be a reliable ppg'er. if rob can anchor down that post it will allow josh to play at his best away from the hoop more. i am confident we will see all of this which is why i for one am overly excited to see this team come together.

ZagMania
06-19-2008, 05:08 AM
I've got to disagree with Sacre, and say its Josh. I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but I believe Josh can excel at the 5 if he comes in healthy, and I think thats the only way to go with this squad. I would rather see Josh and Sacre sharing minutes at the 5 and only occasionally play side by side than to see them mostly together on the court with Josh as a 4.

First off, I think a lot of people here over stress our lack of scoring inside as a necessary component for advancing. This is nearly a universal problem around college basketball, which is the reason why its so hard to get good polished bigs. While Josh may not have Batista like efficiency down low he is certainly capable and he can do things defensively that very few people can do.

And more importantly, if you give both Josh and Sacre both starters minutes at 25+ per game, this makes Daye slide down to playing a good amount of the 30+ minutes he should be getting at the 3. While this may be his more natural position, this basically ends the 3 guard lineup and gives Pargo, Bouldin, Gray, Micah, Ira, Meech, and Gibbs to split up time at the 2 guard spots and at the 3 whenever Daye is sitting or playing at the 4, which would be reduced if Josh is playing there.

This leaves Gray and Micah fighting to find minutes, and leaves the bigger question as to who backs up Sacre and Josh at the 5 and 4? What happens if they get into foul trouble? Daye can slide into the 4, and Josh can go to center when Sacre needs a break. But this takes away the ability to be aggressive on defense as Foster would be the only real backup if they get into foul trouble.

It makes way more sense for Sacre's role to be backup center on this team. It plays to the strength of this team, which is our guards and wings and the fact that even our center in this lineup, Josh, can run the break. To me it clearly makes the most sense to go this way. Sure, Daye is a little thin to play PF but against stronger teams they can go into the zone and use his and Micah's length to play the wings which was effective, and Daye should be stronger next year too.

Backing up Heytvelt, which is what I think his role should be, is important, but it does not make him the most important player on the team.

bzzz61
06-19-2008, 05:52 AM
Micah, Micah, Micah!

Reborn
06-19-2008, 07:16 AM
There is not a most important player. I'm sorry, but it's a TEAM game. If any of the guys think in these terms we'll be in trouble. We need everyone to be playing at their best by March if we are to make a run in the tournament. I believe that if any of our starters are injured in March we won't make a deep run, and may not make it past the first round.

Rob is important, and will play an important role, but he is't a starter on my Zag team. I'm going with: Josh, Austin, Pargo, Matt and Steven. Rob, Micah and Meech will come off the bench. This is in March. I don't see Few playing more than 8 guys at the end of the year.

The Zags will need one more guy coming off the bench down low, and that will be either Ira or Poling. They will not have a big role and will play only when we have guys in foul trouble.

That leaves Gibbs. I think I'd red shirt him.

LongIslandZagFan
06-19-2008, 09:09 AM
Sacre needs to make the Frosh-Soph jump that we have seen in the past with other players. Having him start to be a beast down low will make Josh's life that much easier and will make us that more dangerous.

TheSpokaneClan
06-19-2008, 09:47 AM
The most important players if we want to get to the final four are Matt and Josh. They absolutely have to step it up in big games, which I don't think either of them did at all last year.

Matt's best game of the year was probably against Utah, and when it came down to big games like the NCAA tourney, or conference tourney he averaged:
(7.3/2/2.6) thats on a (PPG,RPG,APG) scale.

Josh wasn't much better:
He averaged 11.67 PPG (bulk of that was against Santa Clara), and 4.3 RPG which is absolutely atrocious from a guy who was supposed to be your big rebounder.

He also attempted NO free throws against San Diego in the title game!

Jeremy will step up in key situations because that is the kind of player that he is, and Steven showed us what he can do in pressure situations. Austin will hopefully get even better with his outside game, but out of those five players in our starting five if we want to make a Final 4 then Matt and Josh have to be the guys that take us there.

jim77
06-19-2008, 11:04 AM
PARGO.

Nearly every play in every game will go through Jeremy's hands. We have a ton of talent on offense but, how will we use that talent? It just so happens that what will make Jeremy a 1st rounder...will also make GU a final 4 team. Whats the WHAT? Assists /decision making. Jeremy should make it his goal to AVERAGE 10 assists per game....and with the talent GU has, that should not be a problem.

JOSH a close second.....this team has a good chance of being "scary
good".

ZagManFan
06-19-2008, 11:14 AM
Man, I am going against the grain here a bit and saying Gray. All the talk is about Daye right now and his offense. To me Gray is just as big of a weapon as is Austin. If Gray can improve his already stellar outside shooting, we could have a mediocre low post presence and be OK. I foresee no double teams down low this year for the mere fact that with Austin and Gray at the 2 and 3 slots will light you up which that should open it up to Rob and Josh (even Will) down low.

I know a lot depends on Rob, but I think his success will come from the outside in. If he can get deep position and go one on one, I think he will be fine. Same for Josh

jim77
06-19-2008, 12:43 PM
I agree with ya Zagman to a point. I think teams will have no choice but to play a sagging zone. We will need a great 3 pointer to keep them honest...Steven is that guy. I think Steven will average 10 this year.

MontanaZag
06-19-2008, 07:08 PM
Daye Daye Daye Daye Daye Daye

bartruff1
06-19-2008, 07:14 PM
No one is going anywhere without the ball...if the point guard cannot involve the other in the offense and get them the ball at the right time in the right place ....the rest is just potential..

Zag79
06-19-2008, 07:48 PM
after reading through these posts, im going with 3 ball shooters. if micah, gray and matt are on its over. if micah gets limited PT and matt shoots like he did at times its going to be a roller coaster again.

ZagNative
06-20-2008, 12:09 AM
Wow. I'm surprised by all the folks standing around waiting for Rob to be the second coming .... The season hinges on ... Rob?

Clearly, Pargo is key to the team's success this year. was GUnit last year, and he will be this year too. Savor every game he's in a Zags uniform, because we won't soon see another like him.

bigblahla
06-20-2008, 05:04 AM
Wow. I'm surprised by all the folks standing around waiting for Rob to be the second coming .... The season hinges on ... Rob?

Clearly, Pargo is key to the team's success this year. was GUnit last year, and he will be this year too. Savor every game he's in a Zags uniform, because we won't soon see another like him.


Rob's development shores up the middle on both offense and defense. That weakness has been painfully obvious against top notch competition and in the Big Dance following the absence of the "Brazillian Beast."

We will have an extremely talented team but who doesn't expect the rest of the fellows to be better. So for me the spot that needs to be improved the most is the 5 and if it is we will go far because at 1-4 we can play with anyone in the country.

Something tells me we will be singing some high praise for Meech before his career is said and done at GU.

No argument on Pargo we are blessed to have him back for one more year.

Just my opinion!

Go!! Zags!!!

haMarlin
06-20-2008, 06:03 AM
I agree with most of the points on here. While i am undecided on the most important player, I see a few points missing in this debate. What about Micah? In my opinion we have six starters.

Pendo, Kuso and LG leaving took hustle and rebounding from this team. Micah has shown he has a knack for being in the right place at the right time to get rebounds. He also has had the fire and hustle to fight for the ball.

The 3 pt line is moving back! While Gray has an incredible shot and Daye has good range, i'm not sure about Matt's ability to consistantly contribute from behind the arc this year. Micah has shown the ability to hit from long range. Since he's come to Spokane, he's also acquired the will to take it to the rim to draw fouls.

I would like to see him earn a starting spot. He has shown he can put up double digit points even as the 6th man. He may be one of the best 6th men in the country. Bringing a fresh player of his caliber into the game at four minutes into the contest is not fair. We should enjoy the depth of this season as much as possible, it doesn't come around very often. :D

bartruff1
06-20-2008, 06:50 AM
It simply doesn't matter how improved they are.... how atheletic they are ...what good shooters they are.... and even what great rebounders and defenders they are...the simple fact is that to win you have to score one more point than your opponent and the key to that is the point guard. You get d*** tired of rebounding and defending and running thru screens and setting picks and working your butt off getting up and down the court if you end up just standing around watching Pargo. I don't know what our record is when he scores 20 points but I suspect it isn't so great, he needs to get more assists. Curry would never have scored that many points without that point guard. Pargo is the key, without him it is just wouldacoulddashoulda... imho

omahazag
06-20-2008, 07:16 AM
I agree with most of the points on here. While i am undecided on the most important player, I see a few points missing in this debate. What about Micah? In my opinion we have six starters.

Pendo, Kuso and LG leaving took hustle and rebounding from this team. Micah has shown he has a knack for being in the right place at the right time to get rebounds. He also has had the fire and hustle to fight for the ball.

The 3 pt line is moving back! While Gray has an incredible shot and Daye has good range, i'm not sure about Matt's ability to consistantly contribute from behind the arc this year. Micah has shown the ability to hit from long range. Since he's come to Spokane, he's also acquired the will to take it to the rim to draw fouls.

I would like to see him earn a starting spot. He has shown he can put up double digit points even as the 6th man. He may be one of the best 6th men in the country. Bringing a fresh player of his caliber into the game at four minutes into the contest is not fair. We should enjoy the depth of this season as much as possible, it doesn't come around very often. :D

I agree. Micha, although maybe not the most important player, ihe s, in my opinion, the biggest X factor that could propel this team to the "next level". He is a NBA draft prospect and more than capable of carrying the Zags if needed. I'd like to see him earn a starting spot and become more of a factor on the Offensive end of the floor.

Exciting times we are living in my friends. Can't wait to see how things pan out.

cjm720
06-20-2008, 07:21 AM
Great posts everyone!!

I've accumulated a tally of results:

1. Sacre - 7.5 votes (with one half vote)
2. Heytvelt - 6.5 (with one half vote)
3. Team - 4
3. Pargo - 4
4. Daye - 3
5. Bouldin - 2 (with two half votes)
5. Downs - 2
5. Gray - 2

I excluded a few votes (such as 3-point play), as it was difficult to quantify.

My observations are:

I'm suprised that Sacre, a guy who averaged 2.8 points, 1.8 rebounds in 9 minutes per game would be considered "the most important player." I cannot argue than an improved Sacre be an important factor for our success but if he's the most important we're in big trouble. I cannot envision more than 8 points, 5 rebounds per game for him in his sophomore campaign. He needs to soften those hands up to become an effective post player.

I'm equally suprised at how few chose Pargo, the reigning WCC POY and obvious team leader. If he goes down with injury, we're in trouble.

If we were allowed multiple votes, I would select Pargo then Daye after Heytvelt. Daye's versatility and scoring ability, coupled with Pargo play making ability, will make this upcoming season one to remember. We just need a confident, healthy Heytvelt to make a deep tourney run.

Thanks for you contributions, this has been a fun post!

GO ZAGS!!!!

duper
06-20-2008, 07:54 AM
Josh will be better as will rob but to depend on these 2 is scarry. its a team game and our whole team will be better and play better together and that will be the key. Rob as of yet is unproven and Josh has proven to be incosistent for one reason or another.

bigblahla
06-20-2008, 09:13 AM
I'm suprised that Sacre, a guy who averaged 2.8 points, 1.8 rebounds in 9 minutes per game would be considered "the most important player." I cannot argue than an improved Sacre be an important factor for our success but if he's the most important we're in big trouble. I cannot envision more than 8 points, 5 rebounds per game for him in his sophomore campaign. He needs to soften those hands up to become an effective post player.


cjm720, great thread.

Sorry for cutting up your post for a quote but this is the point to me.

We should be improved at 1-4 all the guys should be better at letting the game come to them, playing together and trusting each other. The 5 is our bane, our Achilles Heel.

The 07-08 Zags were 25-8 and lost 6 games by 8 points or less. Rob had limited time in those games but 8 points and 5 rebounds out of Rob in any of those games would have made a difference and if that's what he can give us this year it may be the difference between being a good team and being a great team with everyone else performing up to their capabilities.

Just my opinion!

Go!! Zags!!!

haMarlin
06-20-2008, 09:13 AM
If we were allowed multiple votes, I would select Pargo then Daye after Heytvelt.

Is that

-Pargo, then Daye after Heytvelt.

or

-Pargo then Daye, after Heytvelt.

? ;)

cjm720
06-20-2008, 09:54 AM
Is that

-Pargo, then Daye after Heytvelt.

or

-Pargo then Daye, after Heytvelt.

? ;)

Josh, Jeremy, Austin :D

SteelCityZag
06-20-2008, 10:42 AM
Of course every player and evey position are all important. It's a team sport. They all have to improve otherwise we'll likely wind up where we did last year.

The question this thread seems to be actually asking, is which player's improvement will mean the most to the overall team (given that all must improve).

I think the answer there is Josh. I think I've posted that Sacre's improvement would mean the most in earlier threads, but that is only to get Josh back on track. Josh is blessed with amazing athleticism (I don't believe that it has gone anywhere) but he has also been injury prone and inconsistent. IF Josh remains healthy, plays with fire, and can consistently be the inside guy who can board 10, score 20, and block shots, I guess that outweighs what Robert can bring. If Robert can be a beast, freeing Josh to play the 4 that he seems to want to play, then even a serviceable Sacre beast still means that Josh is the guy who gets the points.

Now Daye as an offensive juggernaut would be amazing, but even the same Daye we had last year, with added strength and a bit better decision making is going to be quite good. Given the minutes, he'll be a constant threat outside and in, and I agree with CDC, the offense must run through Austin.

Jeremy's improvement in outside shot and limiting his turnovers could also big, but I think that is destined to improve given a dominant Josh. Having a guy inside that JP can get the ball to who will convert will not only make our offense less stagnant that it was at times last year, it will also improve Jeremy's stats even if Jeremy is the same player he was last year.

Of course we'll need great shooting and defense. We'll need hustle and grit and toughness like the teams of old. And we'll need everyone, Matty, Steven, Micah, et all to be able to step up and go off for 20 pnts on any given night.

But the key this year is Josh. Without a consistently dominant Heytfelt, I don't see us getting to the Final Four.

FrosTbear
06-20-2008, 11:27 AM
When I look at the last five years the teams in the final four there is one common item; a team working together with 5 players knowing and doing their jobs very well. So this question must be answered by at least five names.

Austin Daye's become the go to guy and the top scoring player
Josh Heytvelt's take over the game with working above the rim and 3's
Rob Sacre's itake over the paint
Jeremy Pargo's dive the lane, pass to the open man, and get everyone scoring
Stephen Gray's 3 point scoring will force the D out from the paint
Matt Bouldin's interior post up (mismatches against shorter guards.)
Micah Downs immediate offense and powerful defense.

PS- The coaching staff letting the players get enough time on the floor to feel the game and become a real player.

Zag79
06-20-2008, 11:30 AM
after posting a couple times im going rethink me decision. micah. he will be the impt cog that really takes this team to the next level. he is a fabulous scorer (unseen last year due to very unpredictable PT imo) who can take it to the hole or hit 28 footers. he can rebound, and plays tremendous D. if he gets the time needed to showcase his game, and perofrms at the level hes capable of during that time he will only take us to better heights.

jim77
06-20-2008, 08:10 PM
It simply doesn't matter how improved they are.... how atheletic they are ...what good shooters they are.... and even what great rebounders and defenders they are...the simple fact is that to win you have to score one more point than your opponent and the key to that is the point guard. You get d*** tired of rebounding and defending and running thru screens and setting picks and working your butt off getting up and down the court if you end up just standing around watching Pargo. I don't know what our record is when he scores 20 points but I suspect it isn't so great, he needs to get more assists. Curry would never have scored that many points without that point guard. Pargo is the key, without him it is just wouldacoulddashoulda... imho


Bingo!!! Nicely put Bartruff.

ZagsGoZags
06-21-2008, 12:41 AM
Austin Daye will be the most important, or MVP on the zags team for 08-09

dnj116
06-21-2008, 07:27 AM
Tough to say. I think overall it's going to be how much the freshmen improve from last season. We all know what JH and pargo are capable of. I want to see how much size Daye puts on. How Sacre has improved. And I love Grey, but if that kid improves his game from last season we are going to be sick!!

OZZag
06-22-2008, 04:55 PM
For the team to go to the next level, the biggest variable will be Rob's post play. It will allow Josh and Austin to dominate their postions, the Zags need more inside strength to give the team the ability play that game when they need to. Rob may not even start, but if he can play 25 minutes a game and give the team a strong inside stopper the opposition will find it hard to get easy buckets. He is able to cover a lot of ground quickly for a big man, and could also provide some easy buckets if the opposition keys too much on Daye and/or Heytvelt.

Guard play is not always going to win games (sepecially when the 3point shot is not going down as it didn't a couple of games last year.

Here is my take on Rob's numbers

20 minutes a game
8 ppg
6 Rpg
2 Bpg