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View Full Version : OT: Was/Is the fix in on NBA games/series?



BobZag
06-11-2008, 02:42 PM
Well, "yes" or "no" or "who knows"?

Do you think ex-NBA referee Tim Donaghy is lying, or do you think he's telling the truth?

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=ArfhK2CvytJBQL2t.DmKmUC8vLYF?slug=ap-bettingprobe&prov=ap&type=lgns

What say you?

Akzag
06-11-2008, 02:58 PM
My two thoughts ...

1) do you trust the guy that got caught ?

or

2) when you find one rotten egg, does the likelihood that there is another one rotten one increase ... ?

my answers, 1) no, and 2) I would suspect so.

dim4sum
06-11-2008, 03:08 PM
Did some google searching. The last really big time fix scandal occurred in the 1950s, involving some New York City schools----City College of New York and Long Island University.
That was in the 50s when the stakes were much lower. To say that nothing of that sort has happened since then, would be kind of naive. My guess is that the more likely scenario has occurred on the collegiate level, where many impoverished kids play, rather than at the pro level, where the players are over-paid. Of course, it would take some kind of super-sleuth to detect the fixed games that were never detected over the years.
Disregarding all that, on the ref's level, every one knows it's a joke to say that all refs are impartial. There are refs that have it out for certain players or teams. It's much easier for a ref to sway the game, simply by calling tacky, questionable fouls on a team's one and only star early in the game.

HillBillyZag
06-11-2008, 03:14 PM
Unfortunately the very fact that there are officials such as this scum bag who would be involved in gambling while an employee of the NBA and in a position to influence games casts the entire League in a bad light. I would hope that its either bravo sierra or a desperate attempt to tar the whole NBA with the same brush, but certainly a complete investigation is called for. Professional sports of any type has always had gambling as its achilles heel and with the the history of legal problems incurred by players, teams, and associated individuals to fan the flames, one must wonder how far the cancer has spread? Boxing, Baseball, Football & Cycling have all had scandals of various magnitude over the years and were able to bounce back, but one wonders how many more chances the public is willing to give them?

CDC84
06-11-2008, 03:40 PM
As was discussed last night at halftime, there needs to be more transparency when NBA teams file complaints about officiating. There is too much of an attitude these days, at all levels of basketball, that refs are above public examination and criticism. As long as this stuff keeps being handled behind closed doors, it makes the NBA customer wonder just how much cheating is really going on. That lack of trust is damaging to the game....even if it turns out that the lack of trust is unwarranted.

229SintoZag
06-11-2008, 04:28 PM
I have been convinced the NBA is fixed ever since that game 7 between the Sonics and Phoenix Suns back when Phoenix had Barkley. I believe it was 1993 or 1990.

The Suns had like a 40 free throw advantage and there were a ton of phantom calls on the Supes. They could literally not play a defensive possession without being whistled, and the got called for tons of offensive fouls too.

I was convinced then that the NBA would do anything to get Barkley and the Suns to the finals, and by God, they did.

I really haven't been a big NBA fan since.

deathchina
06-11-2008, 04:52 PM
I would agree that it is probably much more likely that there is fixing going on in college athletics than in the pro game.

75Zag
06-11-2008, 05:13 PM
I read somewhere that more than a billion dollars is bet on college basketball each year. As much as I would like to believe that each and every college BB player, coach and referee is honest, upstanding, etc., I am absolutely convinced that point shaving goes on, along with various other small time cheating. I wish/hope I am wrong, but I don't think so.

On the positive side, I have never met anyone associated with the GU program that seemed questionable in any way. GU may not have any national championship flags flying at K2, but I have absolute confidence that the GU program is clean.

john montana
06-11-2008, 05:24 PM
I remember Game 6 of the Kings/Lakers series (i think in 2002?). If there was ever a game that seemed fixed to me, that was the one.

MickMick
06-11-2008, 05:25 PM
I never would have believed it...until i saw Super Bowl XL. Now I don't know what to believe.

MDABE80
06-11-2008, 06:10 PM
It's hard to know when such odd things happen in games...football or basketball. I've been wondering about entending the playoofs more more money/interest ( money) since the 70's. SOme of the outcomes are just so implausable including some of the games Donaghy is citing.

When you can't believe what's happening right tbefore your eyes, wonder and wonder aloud.....especially if it's the pro leagues. And yet, do any of you remember the magic the Mariners worked in 1995?...... or the Tex Tech collapse or the UCLA collapse. We lost but in the latter 2 but those losses were just plain crazy. Sometimes things just happen.

Among the worst though but the SuperBowl Mick mentions. Ref had to have had a hand in that one. THAT one was beyond chance IMO.

basketballzag
06-11-2008, 06:22 PM
Tulane was involved in a point shaving incident and game fixing scheme in the late 80s. Several players were involved including former NBA all star John "Hot Rod" Williams. Don't be naive and think this doesn't happen every year at numerous schools.

zagco
06-11-2008, 07:34 PM
Arizona State.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/college/news/1998/06/30/asu_shaving/

CaliforniaZaggin'
06-11-2008, 07:38 PM
I remember Game 6 of the Kings/Lakers series (i think in 2002?). If there was ever a game that seemed fixed to me, that was the one.

As a die hard and life-long Kings fan, I cannot even begin to described how furious I am (although I'm not suprised... seriously, go back and watch the tape) that game six was fixed!! Here's hoping '08 is legit.

gu03alum
06-11-2008, 08:25 PM
I have been convinced the NBA is fixed ever since that game 7 between the Sonics and Phoenix Suns back when Phoenix had Barkley. I believe it was 1993 or 1990.

The Suns had like a 40 free throw advantage and there were a ton of phantom calls on the Supes. They could literally not play a defensive possession without being whistled, and the got called for tons of offensive fouls too.

I was convinced then that the NBA would do anything to get Barkley and the Suns to the finals, and by God, they did.

I really haven't been a big NBA fan since.

It was 93 and the suns made 57 of 64 free throw attempts. I have tried to be an nba fan, but there are too many examples of things like this. I remember that Lakers-Kings game too. That was ridiculous and felt fixed at the time. Donaghey is a slime ball, but it's hard not to think that something malicious has gone on in the nba for years. (Knicks winning the lottery comes to mind too)

93-sonics-pain-that-lingers.html (http://www.supersonicsoul.com/2004/09/93-sonics-pain-that-lingers.html)

when_fouls_just_dont_add_up/ (http://www.boston.com/sports/articles/2005/05/08/when_fouls_just_dont_add_up/)

CDC84
06-11-2008, 08:39 PM
The big reason that can also be used to support the notion that college basketball is more susceptable to crooked officiating than the NBA is that the governing body for college officials are none other than retired college officials. It's a total country club operation. You want to talk about a lack of impartiality. Also, many conference commissioners have a habitual instinct to admonish coaches within their league who publicly criticize game officials instead of seriously addressing their complaints.

Moreover, there are so many division one college teams, and so many college basketball games that take place - particularly on a Saturday during league play - that the microscope isn't nearly as intense as a NBA playoff game. Think of all the games that take place in the bottom RPI conferences that are never seen on TV, that get little in the way of national media attention, etc.

demian
06-11-2008, 11:32 PM
I do believe Tim D. That the Lakers vs. Kings game from 2002 was fixed. That was totally obvious at the time. All one needs to do is jar your memory back to that game. It was the most obvious fix of all time. All the Lakers had to do on offense was at least advance the ball past half court and the reffs would then call a foul on the kings no matter what happened. To the Kings credit they almost won the game, they kept scoring on offense, but the Lakers kept going to the free throw line, and as soon as the Kings had ONE empty possesion where they didn'tt make a basket that game was over. They could not keep up with the Lakers because the Lakers essentially had no empty possesions that fourth quarter they just went to the free throw line all quarter long. By the way I agree with the poster who refernced the Suns vs. Sonics game from 1993 that was another blatant fix job. Ever since that game in 1993 I have been covinced of the fix, and it seems every year there is more proof to add to that conviction. I also have a real hard time believing that Tim D. is/was the only reff ever to have been involved in a gambling problem where the only way to get out of trouble would be to fix games. I believe other reffs have been involved in the same mess.



The big reason that can also be used to support the notion that college basketball is more susceptable to crooked officiating than the NBA is that the governing body for college officials are none other than retired college officials. It's a total country club operation. You want to talk about a lack of impartiality. Also, many conference commissioners have a habitual instinct to admonish coaches within their league who publicly criticize game officials instead of seriously addressing their complaints.

Moreover, there are so many division one college teams, and so many college basketball games that take place - particularly on a Saturday during league play - that the microscope isn't nearly as intense as a NBA playoff game. Think of all the games that take place in the bottom RPI conferences that are never seen on TV, that get little in the way of national media attention, etc.

Spike94
06-12-2008, 05:12 AM
When people say that it is more likely that college is fixed as opposed to the pros they are talking about two different things. Yes college might be fixed, and probibly are for the reasons mentioned above, for gambling money. However, I think that the NBA has the fix on for some games (Kings/Lakers, Suns/Sonics) for TV ratings. The NBA wanted the Lakers over the Kings and the Suns over the Sonics because more people would watch. Here is a hypothetical for you. Do you really think the NBA would have let the Warriors knock out the Lakers if they were number one last year? I am guessing you would have seen some phantom fouls to slow the Warriors down. Anyway this is pure conjecture.

gamagin
06-12-2008, 05:15 AM
popular teams and big name players, but I would not believe without solid evidence that the leadership of a league, which after all works for the owners of all those teams, would fix a game much less a championship series.

But the pressure to give the stars and star power to the game is such, to me, that everyone knows what team would be a better champion, revenue-wise, for the league as a whole.

Since everyone knows how the numbers work, who would bring the biggest draw, etc etc., it seems like it would not require a conspiracy to see that kind of bias at work and in play, even without the likes of donaghy attempting to capitalize on that bias.

Beyond that, I have to say prove it. I think too much is at stake to manipulate and jeopardize the entire league for any kind of short term gain by the owners as a group.

Zagpower
06-12-2008, 05:56 AM
The NBA is the pefect league for refs to throw a game since the refs admittedly call the game differently for different players.

1)How many times do we hear "the rookie won't get that call for a few years"?
This doesn't happen in BB or FB where plays are judged on their merit.


2) Going back to Dr. J, the top players get an extra step that others can't
take. This is like giving the top baseball players an extra strike or letting
some FB players line up offside.

Or the most obvious one, the diffeence in how games are called for the home team vs the visiting team. It used to be said that home court advantage is worth about 3 points. I think that number is closer to 10-15. Everone and their dog knew that the Lakers would be going to the free throw line much more in this last game. Everyone knew it, predicted it, and the Lakers were at the Free Throw Line more in the first quarter at LA than they were in the whole game at Boston. Same teams...just two days later.

The NBA and media keep talking about the ref situation and no one seems to connect the dots to some of the things that have been taken for granted in this league forever. Call the games the same way no matter the player, or the score, or the location.

.

Zagpower
06-12-2008, 06:04 AM
Donaghy = Jose Canseco

He may be a scumbag but I would not dismiss out of hand anything he has to say like David Stern is doing. It's the scumbags that often have this type of info.

zagfan07
06-12-2008, 06:42 AM
Donaghy = Jose Canseco

He may be a scumbag but I would not dismiss out of hand anything he has to say like David Stern is doing. It's the scumbags that often have this type of info.

Great analogy! This could be the guy that opens a can of worms for the NBA.

As a long time Kings fan, I remember that game in 2002 and recall feeling cheated by the NBA after that series was over. The Kings were BY FAR the better team that year and they deserved to go to the finals. Ever since that season, my interest in the NBA has disappeared.

Let's all be thankful for the outstanding job Few and his staff do at GU and the honest brand of basketball they play. It makes it easy to be a Zag fan.

coolhandzag
06-12-2008, 06:57 AM
I'm with Sinto and 03Alum. The Supes didn't fit the NBA's mold of a Barkley/Jordan matchup. Accordingly an appropriate level of free throw opportunities was provided.

For some reason when I think of that game it reminds me of the 88 Seoul Olympics and the beat down Roy Jones Jr. laid on Park Si-Hun, and lost a 3-2 decision.

Bob's question is: Do you think NBA official Tim Donaghy is telling the truth regarding the "fixing" of NBA games. Answer: I've known it ever since '93.

coolhandzag
06-12-2008, 07:18 AM
Any Jazz fans remember this? Push off? Maybe Stern got the memo out just in time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WULyz1-OQc

zag944
06-12-2008, 07:39 AM
I don't really take what Donaghy says with too much value, but he is certainly smart to point out games that we have every right to be concerned about.

I think the sample size of March Madness games and NBA playoff games is close enough. Its the same sport, and the rules are 95% the same, and the NBA refs probably have more beefed up resumes. Yet, I can't recall any complaints about refereeing reaching much national exposure in the Big Dance, while the NBA has 3+ cases every season in the playoffs. This year alone we had the Spurs losing a game because Brent Barry got jumped by Derek Fisher on a game winning 3 point attempt with no call (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9TU4jIgasA), the Lakers getting screwed in Game 2 of the Finals, and Jason Kidd recieving no penality for throwing Jannero Pargo on his head (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hD7oMY2qeho). This isn't even including the obvious favortism handed to LeBron James and the like.

If NBA officiating isn't corrupt, the officials are just plain incompetent.

zaguarxj
06-12-2008, 08:24 AM
I have been convinced the NBA is fixed ever since that game 7 between the Sonics and Phoenix Suns back when Phoenix had Barkley. I believe it was 1993 or 1990.

The Suns had like a 40 free throw advantage and there were a ton of phantom calls on the Supes. They could literally not play a defensive possession without being whistled, and the got called for tons of offensive fouls too.

I was convinced then that the NBA would do anything to get Barkley and the Suns to the finals, and by God, they did.

I really haven't been a big NBA fan since.

I was thinking exactly the same thing. You beat me to it. I haven't followed the NBA much since then either.

Rubbadub
06-12-2008, 08:39 AM
NBA=WWE

Except that the results of the Dallas/Miami finals were far more obviously staged than any wrestling match. Dwayne Wade is a good player, but it was pathetic that entire season watching the Association, refs and commentators attempt to make him into the next Jordan.

johno
06-12-2008, 08:45 AM
The officiating is one of the great turn-offs of basketball and most under- reported. Seems the media never report on the officiating crew, like what conference they're from, in the tournament or in inter-league games, although you know in negotiating inter-league games, the officiating crew is often central to the negotiations. That would indicate an acceptance that there is bias.

Fouls play too big a role in Basketball. I hate the flop and I really hate the looks of disbelief, anger, innocence etc... that players and coaches take on when they feel they've been wronged by a call. Turns them into crybabies and that really should not be a part of basketaball and I hate watching that part of the game.

Perhaps its an impossible dream but maybe some genius could construct rules that take the refs out of the game as much as possible. We need a revolution in the rules in my opinion. At least something to take the judgement out of charge/blocking calls. Seems many of those can go either way.

I will keep watching the zags though...but only watch NBA when I can watch Ronny, AMMO and the other Zags.