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BobZag
05-18-2008, 09:49 AM
This is the question.

Should Kansas forfeit their National Championship "if" Kansas knew about the grading scandal that is beginning to surround the Jayhawks' star forward, who scored about 20 and 10 in their big game? "If" Darrell Arthur is found to have been ineligible all season, what would you do if you were king for a day?

A. Make KU forfeit their NC.
B. Make KU forfeit regular season and Big-12 Title.
C. Punish in other ways, ala Indiana.
D. Leave KU alone.

MickMick
05-18-2008, 10:01 AM
Leave KU alone.

As much as I want to blame USC and Kansas for recent events, I put bigger blame on the athletes, the agents, the NBA, and ultimately our culture.

If a kid is a great player and a lousy student, then why the disguise? Why try to fool the public into believing that the kid is anything else? I would prefer an approach similar to baseball. The problem is that the American sports consumer will likely not support an equivalent farm system. And colleges are too eager to fill their coffers using the relatively free services of pro athletes.
For those that might claim the services are not free, then the players truly are pro athletes.

Arthur is a product of the system.

ZagNative
05-18-2008, 10:17 AM
Aren't threads like these WAY premature, unfair to the kid and KU? From a quote on a post by MedZag (http://www.guboards.spokesmanreview.com/showthread.php?p=223082#post223082):



Associate athletic director Jim Marchiony noted Friday that the NCAA's Eligibility Center cleared Arthur's transcript from Dallas South Oak Cliff High prior to him enrolling at KU in 2006.

"I can't see this affecting Kansas or Darrell Arthur," Marchiony said. "The school sent his transcript to the clearinghouse, and they approved it."

...

Citing an interview with Arthur's former math teacher, Winford Ashmore, WFAA reported that two math grades were changed on Arthur's transcript. One of the grade changes was made almost two years after Arthur took the class.

"This is ridiculous," an angry Mays said by phone Friday. "Darrell's grades were always good. There were two grades that were posted incorrectly. A change-of-grade form was filled out and the correct grade was posted. The teacher made the grade change.

"We're disappointed this false information has been released."

kansas.com (http://www.kansas.com/249/story/406931.html)

Shouldn't we wait for the "trial" before deciding whether or not the school deserves the death penalty? Putting the "if" in there really doesn't help, IMO. The inference is created, and it seems unfair and intemperate to me.

23dpg
05-18-2008, 10:33 AM
I am absolutely withholding judgement until more info is released. But Bob's question had a big IF in it. So, I will assume that nothing happened illegally but IF something shady was done and they knew about it, they have to forfeit all of their games, including the championship.

wiszag
05-18-2008, 10:43 AM
Aren't his grades pretty good in college? I heard that he had a 3.0 gpa at KU. I think it's pretty ridiculous that a school can be penalized after a kid has been approved by the NCAA clearinghouse. What is the point of that part of the process? I'm a bit of a KU hater but I don't think they did anything wrong, this time.

There's a reason why there is a statute of limitations in criminal law. At some point everyone just needs to move on.

applezag
05-18-2008, 10:46 AM
Leave KU alone.

As much as I want to blame USC and Kansas for recent events, I put bigger blame on the athletes, the agents, the NBA, and ultimately our culture.



I agree with this, but the stuff won't stop until there is a consequence stiff enough to deter the behavior. NCAA can only control certain things, and the behavior of its member schools is one of them. The bottom line is that the rewards for players, agents, AND schools far outweigh the negative consequences of getting caught (especially the players and agents who pretty much have no negative consequences). That needs to change.

What would be really nice would be if the pro leagues would support the NCAA by following through on consequences on their end after players like Reggie Bush and OJ Mayo leave a mess behind them. That isn't ever going to happen, but I think it would be effective.

And I do blame schools. USC had to know that when they got into it with OJ Mayo that the potential for something like this was much higher than with other players. They also, I would think, would have been monitoring their programs much more closely with the recent Reggie Bush stuff.

I also agree in the case of Kansas it is too early to judge exactly what happened. If it is what has been reported, and they had full knowledge of it and played him anyway, then they should be nailed hard on it.

ZagNative
05-18-2008, 10:50 AM
Kansas is one of my least favorite schools, but if the story ends up coming down to some teachers at the kid's high school provoking a whole lot of grief years after the fact in a personal vendetta against the school's former principal, but every college message board in the meantime has been gleefully jumping on board the "Burn her! Burn her!" bandwagon ... well, I'd rather see if she floats before joining the witch hunt.

This thread does need a pic ... from The Holy Grail ...

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff232/ZagNative/Junk/witchhunt.jpg

Gonzdb8
05-18-2008, 11:10 AM
Aren't threads like these WAY premature, unfair to the kid and KU? From a quote on a post by MedZag (http://www.guboards.spokesmanreview.com/showthread.php?p=223082#post223082):

kansas.com (http://www.kansas.com/249/story/406931.html)

Shouldn't we wait for the "trial" before deciding whether or not the school deserves the death penalty? Putting the "if" in there really doesn't help, IMO. The inference is created, and it seems unfair and intemperate to me.

i think BZ was just posting a hypothetical. my read of that wasn't that he was inviting us to be judge/jury and convict the guy. beyond that though....this is an internet college basketball fan forum. i enjoy reading speculation and "what if" type scenarios. i encourage all of you who post this type of stuff to continue. not only they make for a good read but who really cares? what is the possible negative implication to "being unfair to the kid and to KU"? i dare say this "kid" (as if a grown man preparing to enter the NBA were a child) will get over the fact that a group of zag fans in cyberspace pontificated on possible outcomes.
one other thing while i'm writing....i'm all for a civil, mutually respectful forum to post in (which is why i stay away from ESPN boards) but some of you just go overboard when it comes to telling people what to write and what to think. can't you just delete a post if you don't like it or if it comes froma source you don't appreciate? do you really have to read the entire post and then announce to the board that people shouldn't be thinking or speaking a certain way or with a certain message. i just don't get it.

MDABE80
05-18-2008, 11:26 AM
NCAA must investigate further to assess the facts of the situation. Can't do much (if anything) until the facts are all in. IF some HS teacher did this AND KU didn't know, the NCAA is out of luck. They have no province in the HS ranks.
IF KU knew, well that's another ball of wax. Doesn't do much good to "futurize or awfulize" until NCAA completes its work. As an aside though, I could see vacating the title but I doubt Memphis would want it by default.
Mick is SO right, this culture we have now is troublesome. Expect more "innovative" mischief in the future. Makes me glad we have Few.

LongIslandZagFan
05-18-2008, 11:26 AM
Certainly KU and Bill Self are not high on my list. But I can't see KU being held accountable for someone else's misdoings. If they knew about it then fine. But this was an act that they knew nothing about from everything I have read.

ZagNative
05-18-2008, 12:15 PM
The talk over on phognet.com (http://forums.scout.com/mb.aspx?S=172&FIX=1#s=172&f=2481) is pretty interesting and, IMO, surprisingly non-hysterical. (Might require registration, but it was free when I registered.)

kitzbuel
05-18-2008, 12:43 PM
Right now this does not appear to me to reach the scandal level of the OJ Mayo recruitment. KU has the unfortunate timing of their 'witch' showing up just as USC's 'witch' is busy sinking which does not help them in the eyes of public opinion.

OTOH, I really don't think Div I college hoops programs and any substantiated allegations should be kept under wraps just to protect 'kids'. This isn't about kids anymore, it is about a multi-million dollar business. Colleges are taking advantage of the system, kids are taking advantage of the system. Let's call a spade a spade and realize that this is about bucks and the prestige that helps make more bucks.

kitzbuel
05-18-2008, 12:45 PM
BTW, from what I have read so far, I think it will warrant some KU institutional level discipline, but no forfeits.

MickMick
05-18-2008, 05:57 PM
And then there are the high school principals that have a positive influence. For every bad one, there are a multitude of good ones (http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2008/05/high_school_hoop_star_shot_to.html?category=Crime+ category=Sports+category=Springfield+category=Weat her).

I can't really blame some kids for "cheating" to get out of their environment. Alternately, adults "cheating" to help them escape as well. What would you do to escape "hell"? What would you do to help a young man escape?

I'm not saying this is what happened to Arthur. I am saying that we don't know the whole story. And after seeing how biased the press can be (from firsthand experience), I doubt anyone ever will.

SunDevilGolfZag
05-18-2008, 06:58 PM
This is the question.

Should Kansas forfeit their National Championship "if" Kansas knew about the grading scandal that is beginning to surround the Jayhawks' star forward, who scored about 20 and 10 in their big game? "If" Darrell Arthur is found to have been ineligible all season, what would you do if you were king for a day?

A. Make KU forfeit their NC.
B. Make KU forfeit regular season and Big-12 Title.
C. Punish in other ways, ala Indiana.
D. Leave KU alone.

If Kansas knew, then A & B above -- "Rock Chalk Jayhawk" that in your pipe and smoke it