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View Full Version : Ira at the 4....stop already!!



bigparb
05-08-2008, 08:33 AM
I have seen this idea that Ira can/will provide backup minutes at the 4 next year so much that I finally had to post my strong disagreement.

The facts are this....he's 6'4"--235lbs....only against a very small team will Mr. Ira get any run at the 4.....also, I saw nothing, in the 15 minutes of floor time he got last season, to indicate he could contribute at the 4 like Pendo.....

This myth that Ira will get run at the 4 must stop!! Can't we all just accept that he's a wing, my monster hops.......Stop worrying about him getting some run at the 4 and pray god that he's working on his ball-handling and jumper; and if he gets some token minutes at the 4 next season against a small lineup from Portland State for example, then fine, but he won't be playing any serious minutes at the 4 in my humble opinion.......

Unless you want to believe Ira has a bit of Chuck Barkley in him...please stop perpetuating this myth....

PS: I have nothing against Ira at all and I would love to see him contribute in a meaningful way on the floor next season....I just do not see him at the 4 spot for significant/serious run......Let the bashing begin....

Rubbadub
05-08-2008, 09:01 AM
Hey now...he played 110 minutes last season...

Bing
05-08-2008, 09:02 AM
Thank you for clearing that up.

I mean, why have a 240 lb power forward when you already have a 200 pounder ready to go?

gamagin
05-08-2008, 09:20 AM
Your ideas are intriguing and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter

NEZAGFAN
05-08-2008, 09:28 AM
I have seen this idea that Ira can/will provide backup minutes at the 4 next year so much that I finally had to post my strong disagreement.

The facts are this....he's 6'4"--235lbs....only against a very small team will Mr. Ira get any run at the 4.

If you remember the Illinois team that made it to the final a few years back you may recall there power forward was Roger Powell. Powell stands a bulky 6'5 235lbs...hmm I do believe that Ira can play the 4 if called upon. Height is still somewhat overrated in basketball, while it's definitely helpful I still believe if a player uses there head, good positioning, footwork, etc..they can play about any position. I'm pretty sure Ira can jump higher and is stronger then most bigs he will face this coming year, he will be fine playing the 4.

BroncoZAG615
05-08-2008, 09:30 AM
If Ira is as good as we all thought he was when he came here last year than I see no reason why he could not contribute as a four. Especially in the WCC, what 4 do you see dominating Ira physically? Simpson from SMC is good but I think Ira could bully him around a little bit.

Rob Jones played some four for USD last year and I recall him doing pretty good. Just because your not 6' 8'' it doesn't mean you can't play the four spot.

We're weak at the four spot and crowed at 1,2,3 spots so why not try it out. If not at the four, do you really see him getting any sort of serious minutes game in game out? I think Ira could be very valuable next season at the four, if he learns the offense of course.

roxdoc
05-08-2008, 09:32 AM
BParb - I'll stand up for you! Pretty amusing to think of IRA! as a 4. We have two pretty capable 4's: Josh and Austin - only one 5 Rob......I know.....maybe Pargo can be a 5, we have all seen how high he can jump on those stuffs! :D

thespywhozaggedme
05-08-2008, 09:41 AM
If Ira is as good as we all thought he was when he came here last year than I see no reason why he could not contribute as a four. Especially in the WCC, what 4 do you see dominating Ira physically? Simpson from SMC is good but I think Ira could bully him around a little bit.

Rob Jones played some four for USD last year and I recall him doing pretty good. Just because your not 6' 8'' it doesn't mean you can't play the four spot.

We're weak at the four spot and crowed at 1,2,3 spots so why not try it out. If not at the four, do you really see him getting any sort of serious minutes game in game out? I think Ira could be very valuable next season at the four, if he learns the offense of course.

Because he's 6'3, despite being listed as 6'4. What is wrong with you people? Yes he has the body of a Greek God, a 6'3 Greek God. He didn't play 1 minute at the 4 last year. UGH!

cjm720
05-08-2008, 10:18 AM
spy's got a man crush

billyberu
05-08-2008, 10:31 AM
Honestly, I saw nothing in Ira's play to even warrant him getting significant playing time. Spectacularly missed putback jams and often seeming confused out on the floor do not bode well for future play.

CaliforniaZaggin'
05-08-2008, 10:40 AM
I think Ira can definitely play the 4 either against smaller teams or if we play a 2-3 zone on defense. In these scenarios he won't get stuck one-on-one in the post against a taller player.

SteelCityZag
05-08-2008, 10:48 AM
The other thing to remember is injuries. There's a reason they put together a depth chart. Right now, I'm not sure there's a better third option at the 4 (after Josh and Austin) than Ira.

Since Josh hasn't gone an entire season without an injury, you have to think about these things.

spudzag
05-08-2008, 11:01 AM
If Ira can't play at the 4 spot he isn't going to play much. He sure isn't going to take over at a guard spot. To play the 3 he is going to have to unseat Austin and Micah. Seems like a tall order. I'd like to see him get time at the 4.

ziggarut
05-08-2008, 11:07 AM
ANY consideration of Ira at the 4 spot in ANY division one program, let alone Gonzaga (any top 25 team), is beyond ludicrous to the point of absurdity.

Be realistic people - how many 6'6" or smaller power forwards do think there are in Div 1? And as for "height is overrated..."? Since when? Height is slightly overrated if a post is 6"9 matched up against a 7 footer, but 6'4"?? Please stop using Barkely as an example, since he is the only person in this size range that ever had any success over time.

The ONLY chance a player of Ira's size would have in the low post on a consistent basis against even scrub posts of 6'9" or bigger would be if he had:

1. footwork and body control - not only naturally superior talent in this area, but due to his size, would have to be barkely-esque. IF Ira showed that kind of footwork and body control, plus the touch to get a 6 ft shot against much taller posts, he wouldnt' have been at a JC before he came to us.

2. experience with shot angles and post defenders - i don't care how good footwork and body strength/control are, NO 6'4" post is going to be worth a dime unless he has played for years at that position against much taller defenders, working shot angles around, under, and occasionally over taller posts. Ira has no such experience, and as pointed out, didn't get any last year nor did he show the talent to do so. IF HE HAD, do you really think Few would have let him ride the bench so much?

3. Long wingspan & a large posterior put to maximum use - the only way a post Ira's size will even get a CHANCE to use the aforementioned angles and footwork to get shot off, is IF he has long arms and a butt that he knows how to use and enjoys using (back to the basket is natural). Barkely was an anomoly because he had all of these qualities, plus a quick jump. Mostly though, Barkely used his backside to create space to get his shots off. He was natural at it - is Ira? maybe in time, but certainly has shown nothing yet.

So please, come back to reality people. Ira is not, nor will he ever be, any kind of post player. If we are lucky, Ira will learn the game and our system (oh yeah, he is lacking here too), and be a pendo/gurganious cross. a hustle player who boards, set picks, puts back trash, runs the break, and maybe, defends like a demon.

zag67
05-08-2008, 11:13 AM
Oh Zig, one question. If he is going to be like Pendo, what position did he play?

ziggarut
05-08-2008, 11:19 AM
If we are lucky, Ira will learn the game and our system (oh yeah, he is lacking here too), and be a pendo/gurganious cross. a hustle player who boards, set picks, puts back trash, runs the break, and maybe, defends like a demon.

Cross means combination...

And Pendo was no 4 - get real. He played with his heart and head; he epitomized Gonzaga's best 4 year players. But he was a scrapper.

How many passes were dumped down low to Pendo when he was playing the "4"? I can't remember a single one. Let's hope Ira, with one year left, can play with half as much heart and brains and bball IQ as Pendo did, and THEN, Ira will get some PT, and no one will care what position he is in (but it won't be the 4 or 5).

cjm720
05-08-2008, 11:24 AM
If Ira can't play at the 4 spot he isn't going to play much. He sure isn't going to take over at a guard spot. To play the 3 he is going to have to unseat Austin and Micah. Seems like a tall order. I'd like to see him get time at the 4.

Good post. I think this is his best option for PT...not the best fit, but his best option and likely the best option for Few and Co.

cjm720
05-08-2008, 11:30 AM
If we are lucky, Ira will learn the game and our system (oh yeah, he is lacking here too), and be a pendo/gurganious cross. a hustle player who boards, set picks, puts back trash, runs the break, and maybe, defends like a demon.

Cross means combination...

And Pendo was no 4 - get real. He played with his heart and head; he epitomized Gonzaga's best 4 year players. But he was a scrapper.

How many passes were dumped down low to Pendo when he was playing the "4"? I can't remember a single one. Let's hope Ira, with one year left, can play with half as much heart and brains and bball IQ as Pendo did, and THEN, Ira will get some PT, and no one will care what position he is in (but it won't be the 4 or 5).

Pendo wasn't a 4, Austin's not a 4, and Ira's not a 4 BUT with a 3 guard starting line-up, players are going to play out of position.

whatazag
05-08-2008, 11:34 AM
Everyone's got an opinion. Here is mine. You don't necessarily have to be a post player to play the 4. Pendo was not, and he did fine. We are thin at 4, and anyone who thinks Josh is going to be allowed to play there is kidding themselves. That leaves no one to back up Daye, who is already playing out of what his eventual NBA position will be (and is also not a post player). Ira will probably get some time at the 4, and we will have to make the best of it. I think if he learns the system a little better over the summer, he can be effective spelling someone at the 4 occasionally. We don't have a lot of options.

ziggarut
05-08-2008, 11:40 AM
Pendo wasn't a 4, Austin's not a 4, and Ira's not a 4 BUT with a 3 guard starting line-up, players are going to play out of position

AGREED! BUT, with all due respect, just because you give a Pinto a new engine, a paint job and new wheels, it does not become a sports car. Just because we play 3 guards, and add Ira (if that happens) he does NOT become a 4. It just means we are playing 3 guards, a small forward (IRA), and whoever our 5th is...

And our 5th does not become a 5 or center just because he is the tallest player on the floor and the 5th man out after our 4 guards...

USF
05-08-2008, 11:50 AM
Dior Lowhorn is maybe 6'6", but he is effective at the WCC level due to his long arms, ability to get off the floor quickly the high release point of his jumper. He is able to score over taller players. So it isn't out of the question to be effective as a smaller post man. I agree that it is rare though.

zagsfanforlife
05-08-2008, 11:50 AM
amen to this post. When reading about Ira playing the four i laughed. Joey Dorsey played the four last year. Do you think at 6'4, 235 Ira Brown could stop Joey Dorsey from scoring or even have a remote chance to score with his back to the basket on Dorsey? I think not. No way he plays the four, he is at most a 3, probably a two. However he needs to work on his jumper and midrange game if he plans on getting minutes at the two.

zag67
05-08-2008, 12:01 PM
I think most of us are concerned about our depth at the 4/5. We have heighth but they are not a true power foward. At the 4/5 we really only have Josh/Foster/Sacre as true candidates for the power forward/center. But we do have other heighth in Austin/Micah and some bulk/rebounding/speed/hustle in Ira to help out. That may mean that the coaches have to do some things with smoke and mirrors (like special zones) to rest players in certain games.

But I think that when you look at the team as a whole they should be very competitive. If we can stay away from injuries, this team should be competitive in every game they play. This team will also require finding the chemistry and the coaches have to learn how to sub to get the most out of the players.

PFzag
05-08-2008, 12:01 PM
The only time we will see Ira at the 4 is when there is an injury or foul trouble. Even then it will not be a traditional 4 man. He will be called upon to guard guys taller than he is, but I don't ever see him posting his man up and making back to the basket type moves on a regular basis. That is just not his game.

Schmitty
05-08-2008, 12:05 PM
1, 2, 3, 4, & 5... theyre all just numbers, and when youre on a fast break, or running flex, it really doesnt matter what # you call yourself.. Austin was coined a "4" last year, sure, hes 6' 10", but how often was he posting someone up? He was effective facing the basket (among other things), and putting the ball on the floor. Why not Ira! too? Coach Few will put the best players on the floor, if Ira! happens to be one of them, so be it. Makes sense to me.

Defensively speaking, well, might have to play Zone if Ira!'s size creates a mismatch problem. Seems to me he would be pretty darn good closing out on a wing though (quick, strong, fast).

Just my $.02

SteelCityZag
05-08-2008, 12:08 PM
Everyone's got an opinion. Here is mine. You don't necessarily have to be a post player to play the 4. Pendo was not, and he did fine. We are thin at 4, and anyone who thinks Josh is going to be allowed to play there is kidding themselves. That leaves no one to back up Daye, who is already playing out of what his eventual NBA position will be (and is also not a post player). Ira will probably get some time at the 4, and we will have to make the best of it. I think if he learns the system a little better over the summer, he can be effective spelling someone at the 4 occasionally. We don't have a lot of options.

WhataZag makes the point best. There may be times where we have Ira on the floor with three guards and a post player. Call it a 4 or don't, but it still will happen. Of course the coaches will run sets that play to player stengths so Ira will not be posting up down low. I agree that this situation is less than ideal against a Final Four caliber team such as Memphis. Call it four guards like Villanova ran two years ago, but we may simply have to do it.

BTW, Pendo wasn't very big.

CaliforniaZaggin'
05-08-2008, 12:08 PM
I don't think anyone is lobbying for Ira to play huge minutes at the 4 every game; I think the only point that is trying to be made is that he could play the 4 in limited minutes against certain teams. Of course he's not going to matchup against guys like Dorsey from Memphis, but he could probably hang with the power forwards for teams like Pepperdine and LMU.

75Zag
05-08-2008, 12:18 PM
Some hack politician once said that you don't go to war with the army you wish you had, you go to war with the army that you actually have (or something like that). Absent a miracle late arriving low post this summer (please God!) the Bulldogs are going to war in 08-09 with the team they have, which means that the standard GU line up is going to be 3 or 4 guards plus a slightly taller guy (or two). They won't have the luxury of dumping the ball inside to a 60% shooting post, and they won't have the luxury of getting a lot of short rebounds and putbacks. Hopefully the GU outside jumpshots will fall like rain, and the zone defense will keep the big boys away from the basket. I have faith in Mark Few to make the most out of what he has to work with. I will be interested to see how GU matches up with the BCS schools at the Old Spice Classic and their traditional low post players, but only time will tell.

SunDevilGolfZag
05-08-2008, 04:50 PM
Charles Barkley did it so why not Ira

kyle dixon
05-08-2008, 06:28 PM
We have one of the top 5 point guards in America returning supplemented by everyone back other than 2 stellar seniors who busted their ass every night (Kuso and Pendo). Both left their mark on this program, however I believe players have learned a great deal of hardwork and teamwork from these two dedicated Zags who exemplified what this program is about.

I do not care about who is on the court (that is Few's job). We play basketball the right way; cut down on the turnovers, score points, and defend the three point shot, revert back to winning the rebound battle each night and we will win a hell of lot of games. Ira! can ball. I think we just saw a sample of what he can do and I am feeling a lot of faith in Sacre. He received minutes as a freshman and can and will only get better. Few will put the best five players on the court that will put us in the best position to win.

I see myself writing this on 5/8. Is there really 6 months until basketball season?

kyle

zag67
05-08-2008, 06:33 PM
Kyle, good comments. And yes I have trouble believing we have that much time before BBall begins.

ZagNative
05-08-2008, 08:16 PM
Man, Kyle ... You were cruising there for a few, and then that last sentence brought me back to reality ... You could have gone all night ....

thebigsmoove
05-09-2008, 01:29 PM
First of all, college basketball has nothing to do with pro basketball or the traditional positions.

So positions in the sense of Pro really have nothing to do with the game, in most situations Ira Brown could play all 5 positions, he does have the body to post up against taller players, his wingspan helps cancel some of the height of the opposing player, and on top of everything he can jump 40 inches. He may not play major minutes but mark few will use him in certain situations for the post. Now as far as this myth that Austin Daye is a 4, that is absurd, he is a 2 or a 3, he is a wing, thats it. He cannot post up inside, and his defensive assignment will be the same one that micah downs or Matt Bouldin gets.

Finally, look at Villanova three years ago, they ran a 4 guard lineup. They got pretty far with that, so again positions in college basketball are a suggestion not a rule like the pros.

P.S. come check out my blog at http://zagaholic.blogspot.com

roxdoc
05-09-2008, 03:27 PM
Daye certainly is a natural 3, but I referred to him as playing the 4 in a pinch. He certainly has the ability to float around at the high post IMHO much better than IRA! All the hops in the world are not going to help at 6'4 IRA! "post up" a 6'8 - 7' big man. I think they are both great but I like Daye 4 - IRA 3 better than visa versa. With that said, I would agree with the thinking that with the right opponent IRA! could make do at the 4.

Thomas_Sutpen
05-09-2008, 04:08 PM
Let me clear this up:

Scenarios by which IRA could play the 4

Disclaimer: In the ensuing discussion, "4" denotes D1 4, not NBA 4, which, as we all know, equates to a D1 2 or 3, except in cases of 23 or 45, who can play where he wants.

1. If we run a set with 1 1 and 2 2s (or 2 1s and 1 2), then IRA could be a 4, unless our 1 5 is over 7.
2. When using 2-3 zone, IRA could play 4, as long as one or both of our 2 5s (who are 7+) can help him avoid the real 4 and 5. Which makes him a 4 guarding a 3 (or possibly a 2 if the other team has 2 1s or 2 2s).
3. A 1-3-1 could work with IRA at the 4, assuming that 1 of our 1s would be the 1 and 1 of our 1-2 combos could be 1 of the 3s. If our 5s draw 2 fouls in half 1 or 3 in half 2, then the 4 needs to be able to be the 2nd 1.
3. On offense, IRA could be a 4, as long as he's a 4 who avoids the 3. Too many 4s fall in love with the 3, and everyone knows that d1 4s can't love the 3, unless they have 1 or more 5s to help out. On 2nd thought, 4s can love the 3, as long as it's the pre-3 3 (you know, 2 and 1), not the post-3 3. This becomes especially important now the the post-3 3 is 21, not 19. Only 4s who shoot .370 from the 21 3 should be able to take the post-3 3.

Everyone clear?

MickMick
05-09-2008, 04:14 PM
It seemed to me that Ira was in at the guard position most/all of the time. Am I wrong on that one? (correct me if I am wrong please) If so, I would think that coach Few gave him experience there for a reason.

bigparb
05-09-2008, 06:29 PM
It seemed to me that Ira was in at the guard position most/all of the time. Am I wrong on that one? (correct me if I am wrong please) If so, I would think that coach Few gave him experience there for a reason.

Mick...you are absolutely.......CORRECT!!

Ira is only going to see time at the 4 in odd, end of game, pressing situations......Daye and Josh will get all of the 4 time that they can handle....

MJGoGaels
05-09-2008, 07:19 PM
If Ira is as good as we all thought he was when he came here last year than I see no reason why he could not contribute as a four. Especially in the WCC, what 4 do you see dominating Ira physically? Simpson from SMC is good but I think Ira could bully him around a little bit.

Yeah, Few thinks that Ira on Simpson is a perfect match up so much so that... Ira didn't get off the bench but for 2 minutes total in two games, but keep those ideas coming :)

BroncoZAG615
05-09-2008, 09:17 PM
MJ...Hence me saying the "little bit" part. Ira didn't play for a combination of reasons. And I don't recall saying that Ira was the "perfect match" for Simpson. I said he could bully him around a little bit. He's a man and a physical specimen and I think he could contribute at the four.

I'll continue to keep those ideas coming, thanks for the approval :)