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View Full Version : Why isn't Josh "testing the waters"?



FuManShoes
04-29-2008, 12:04 AM
Curious why Heytvelt didn't declare for the draft, sans agent, as Pargo did. Is it because he knows he has to remake himself into an NBA prospect and thus there's no point wasting his time with the draft process? Is it because he wouldn't get a good look this year? Is it because the benefit doesn't outweigh the physical/emotional/financial risk of going up against pro prospects if he's not ready? Is he not healthy right now?

Not casting aspersions. Just curious what factors go into the decision to test or not test the waters.

PS - I didn't know that players who do test the waters don't have to pay their expenses. Seems like a sweet deal.

MDABE80
04-29-2008, 12:13 AM
Likely because he knows what he has to do inorder to be a successful NBA candidate. He had it once and let it slip away. He knows what to do. Good point about potential residual damage. Might have it. Josh has a spectacular Sr year and he'll get his looks.

exiledhusky
04-29-2008, 12:38 AM
Curious why Heytvelt didn't declare for the draft, sans agent, as Pargo did. Is it because he knows he has to remake himself into an NBA prospect and thus there's no point wasting his time with the draft process? Is it because he wouldn't get a good look this year? Is it because the benefit doesn't outweigh the physical/emotional/financial risk of going up against pro prospects if he's not ready? Is he not healthy right now?

Not casting aspersions. Just curious what factors go into the decision to test or not test the waters.

PS - I didn't know that players who do test the waters don't have to pay their expenses. Seems like a sweet deal.


It's a sweet deal for sure. Players are allowed one freebe during the college career and since Josh has but one year left, no reason for him to leave the perk on the table.

SunDevilGolfZag
04-29-2008, 04:46 AM
Curious why Heytvelt didn't declare for the draft, sans agent, as Pargo did. Is it because he knows he has to remake himself into an NBA prospect and thus there's no point wasting his time with the draft process? Is it because he wouldn't get a good look this year? Is it because the benefit doesn't outweigh the physical/emotional/financial risk of going up against pro prospects if he's not ready? Is he not healthy right now?

Not casting aspersions. Just curious what factors go into the decision to test or not test the waters.

PS - I didn't know that players who do test the waters don't have to pay their expenses. Seems like a sweet deal.

Looks to me like you answered your question; I concur

wazZag
04-29-2008, 07:23 AM
I'm curious if Josh wants to avoid it this year so he can put his best foot forward next year. The athletic version of josh could be a lottery pick, the humbled version we saw late last season could go undrafted. Heal up and give it his all next year, I say.

ZagNative
04-29-2008, 07:33 AM
Jay Bilas' column has some interesting takes on "testing the waters." He thinks the process of entering the draft without hiring an agent, intending to return to school, can harm players' chances and that the NCAA needs to change the rules so that if a player declares, he can no longer return to school. It's an ESPN Insider (subscription) story (http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3366358&name=bilas_jay):

Here is how it hurts the player: We constantly hear that the more a player is exposed to high-level competition (like college basketball), the more his flaws become apparent. If that is true, why then would a player want to "test the waters" and help identify his weaknesses to the professional evaluators? How many kids have tested the waters and found they could really swim, or have truly benefited from the process? The answer is very few. Usually, the player returns to college diminished and exposed, and he has damaged his future draft status. Why do you think that the top prospects refuse to work out at the Orlando pre-draft camp? They don't want to hurt their draft status. They will work out for teams in a controlled environment, but that's it.

The truth is, the players that have declared for the draft and have not retained agents are, in most instances, not ready and are making a mistake. How many prospects that are truly ready decline to hire an agent? When you are the real thing, you don't need to test the waters. Players that are the real thing may need a couple of years to season themselves, but there is no need to give the NBA process a test drive. If they are not sure that they are the real thing, they should not test the waters. They should learn how to swim first. I would think Josh feels last season wasn't the measure of the kind of college player he can be and he wants to prove it.

I wonder if Ronny tested the waters before he returned his senior year? I think back then the NBA didn't pay the players' expenses, though, so it wasn't as easy.

CDC84
04-29-2008, 07:53 AM
In some ways I even question why Pargo needs to "test the waters." He's connected enough to the NBA with his brother to understand how the process works, and he knows very well what he needs to work on to better his draft stock for next year.

He needs less camp activity and more reps in the gym. 1,000 free throws and 1,000 long range jumpers per day. Every single day during this offseason is a sacred commodity because there won't be another college basketball offseason for Jeremy. This is it.

ZagNative
04-29-2008, 08:02 AM
I couldn't remember whether Ronny actually "tested the waters." Here's the answer SI offers on an entry on the 2005 draft (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2005/draft/players/10.html):

BIO: Withdrew from the 2004 NBA draft at the deadline and returned to Gonzaga for his senior season. Turiaf is considered stronger on the glass and more potent in the post than a year ago, and should be a late first-round pick. Averaged 16.1 points and 9.3 rebounds, was the West Coast Conference Player of the Year, and led Gonzaga to a No. 10 ranking in the final AP poll. Strong, holds his position on the block well and uses an aggressive streak to draw fouls and rebound. Good shot-blocker, averaged 1.9 per game as a senior. Must develop his repertoire on offense. Gets most of his points at the foul line, and struggles to finish around the basket. Doesn't have a polished post-up move. Despite being an active player, has not been a good offensive rebounder. Struggles with inconsistency and has yet to live up to his potential.As the linked report shows, Ronny was picked in the 2nd round, 37th overall. Had he helped or hurt himself by testing the waters the previous year?

JAGzag
04-29-2008, 08:30 AM
In some ways I even question why Pargo needs to "test the waters." He's connected enough to the NBA with his brother to understand how the process works, and he knows very well what he needs to work on to better his draft stock for next year.

He needs less camp activity and more reps in the gym. 1,000 free throws and 1,000 long range jumpers per day. Every single day during this offseason is a sacred commodity because there won't be another college basketball offseason for Jeremy. This is it.

Not sure how the process works, but I wonder if hearing critiques straight from NBA teams vice potential agents would be more valuable. That, and maybe it's a networking opportunity? Someone has to know how the hell this works!!

dim4sum
04-29-2008, 08:50 AM
There are about six players in the Serbian junior ranks with Josh's height, a tad less speed (when Josh is at full speed) and far more consistency (on the boards and from three point land). It's a world game now and Europe attracts a lot of attention now. That would tend to bump Josh off center stage. He needs a great senior season to dispell all the many doubts about him.

MDABE80
04-29-2008, 09:15 AM
We all know that Jeremy needs to do a "Rotnei" and just go live in the gym. Each and every evaluation of him says the same thing: figure out how to shoot 3's and FT's. No magic....just "seek and you shall find" type logic. SOmetimes though, it's good to hear it from somebody else....outside the GU system in Jeremy's case. Jeremy did shoot 58% from the field if 3 pt shots are disregarded.....lots of accuracy on dribble drives and midrange 3's ( although I wish there was some way to separate the"2's" data. One big thng though is his ballhandling. Some games he's great and others......well......:(

Sorta like my comment on Josh......Jeremy knows what to do.You just can't have a point guard who seems allergic to making the ball his friend...night in and night out. Simply put: You can't be a point guard if you don't shoot accurately and don't handle the ball very well. No matter how good Jeremy looks, most scouts look at the numbers. In the same vein, the major leagues don't draft a kid as a pitcher if he only throws strikes 50% of the time.

It's the work you must do young Jedi. <--paraphrasing something from Star Wars.

I suppose it's good to have someone in the pro systems tell a kid some things that he needs to work on. Moreso if you're 20 years old or less. As far as I know, those camps aren't instructional. Good for mechanical help and to show interested parties that you have some marketable "stuff" and hope they want your "stuff".

JOSH.....just go do what you need to do! Discipline and FOCUS! Go be a big man! GO BIG!!...........or GO home (unfortunately). Josh has done everything to avoid being a big man. That really does need to change. The clock's ticking for him. Either he figures it out or he doesn't. He's made a lot of bad luck for himself. I would be SO amazingly angry if I was Josh. 3 years played and only one semester to show he has the goods to get him further. Where's the beef? It's now or never for one of the most athletically talented big kids I've seen in an awful long time.

I hope for the best when it comes to these 2 kids. It's just the work they must do to determine their own futures though. C'mon fellas........man up and be ZAGS!!

gamagin
04-29-2008, 09:55 AM
and for 20 years thereafter, he conducted rigorous, rough, exhausting workouts in K1 all summer and every summer. Right up to his last season.

There were friends and ratballers and ex coaches, like Fitz, standing in front of him holding tennis raquets to help him adjust to shooting over the taller nba players.

He ran speed, dexterity and did stretching drills, too, then shot and dribbled and passed for several hours a day. For twenty years.

He was tough on himself and he was even tougher on his competitors.

He has two gold medals, holds two NBA records (assists and steals) that may never be exceeded and is considered among the top 50 basketball players (and is arguably the best point guard) ever to have played the game.

So I agree with those who say the best route to the NBA is through the school you are in and the gym where you work your arse off just to get a shot at making it to the bigs. It really is the only way. Everyone has talent at the D1 level.

After that it is more about who wants it and how badly they want it and, perhaps most importantly, how hard they will work to get it. And, finally, will continue to work to stay there.

Zags-Bsee
04-29-2008, 01:28 PM
and for 20 years thereafter, he conducted rigorous, rough, exhausting workouts in K1 all summer and every summer. Right up to his last season.

There were friends and ratballers and ex coaches, like Fitz, standing in front of him holding tennis raquets to help him adjust to shooting over the taller nba players.

He ran speed, dexterity and did stretching drills, too, then shot and dribbled and passed for several hours a day. For twenty years.

He was tough on himself and he was even tougher on his competitors.

He has two gold medals, holds two NBA records (assists and steals) that may never be esceeded and is considered among the top 50 basketball players (and arguably the best point guard) ever to have played the game.

So I agree with those who say the best route to the NBA is through the school you are in and the gym where you work your arse off just to get a shot at making it to the bigs. It really is the only way. Everyone has talent at the D1 level.

After that it is more about who wants it and how badly they want it and, perhaps most importantly, how hard they will work to get it.


Why I love to come here and read about the Zags, EXCELLENT, Thanks

cair3
04-29-2008, 03:57 PM
foot issues remain one issue. need rest and phys therepy to heal

pbriz
04-29-2008, 04:02 PM
...Josh wants to show the Gonzaga community he is still committed to helping our program after the events his sophomore year. By not even considering the NBA right now he is putting out the message that he is concerned with Gonzaga basketball right now and not just his own personal endeavors.

MDABE80
04-29-2008, 04:55 PM
Great post Gamagin. That's EXACTLY what these kids need as an example. That type of dedication and discipline is what's needed to get to that level. Anything less disrespects their gifts. Well done.

spudzag
04-29-2008, 06:16 PM
foot issues remain one issue. need rest and phys therepy to heal


Good point. It will be a balance for Josh. He really needs the level of fitness he showed his soph year too. He wasn't able to get into the kind of shape he needed to last year. So healthy and in condition. Hope he can find both.

D Hark 2003
04-29-2008, 06:58 PM
wow is all i have to say about this thread

75Zag
04-29-2008, 07:37 PM
A couple posts on this thread are first suggestions I have seen that Josh's foot problems are not fully resolved. Is this speculation, or does somebody have actual reliable information to indicate that Josh still has medical problems with his foot? If he can't pass an NBA physical then he is smart to stay in school and get another year towards his degree.

pbriz
04-29-2008, 07:48 PM
A couple posts on this thread are first suggestions I have seen that Josh's foot problems are not fully resolved. Is this speculation, or does somebody have actual reliable information to indicate that Josh still has medical problems with his foot? If he can't pass an NBA physical then he is smart to stay in school and get another year towards his degree.

didn't someone in another thread say that they saw Josh playing pick-up and he was doing very well, I think something along the lines of "watch out." I have a hard time believing he is still having foot problems if he's being described like that.

kdoggy
04-29-2008, 08:04 PM
I used to be of the mind of, "it can't hurt, and it should help them come back stronger college players" But y'know, I am starting to think "testing the waters" is shorthand for "i'm burnt on the college game, I'm focused on something other than my college team, I'm not totally confident in my game, I'm better than what I displayed on the court and the scouts just don't realize how good I am, I am academically marginal and my eligibility is hinging on my summer quarter.."

Of course its not all these things to every player, but it just seems that alot of "testing the waters" guys are clearly not NBA ready to the most casual of hoop watchers. When they go "test the waters" they are outmatched and of course, as someone mentioned, these scouts take notes and have long memories.

I think there is a better chance of truly improving your stock by living in the gym like Magic, Bird, Jordan, Stockton, Malone. Stocktons workouts are well known around GU, Magic was balling at Pauley daily in the offseason through his career, the most underreported thing about Jordan is that the guy had a freakish work ethic, and malone didn't get the physique from finishing his milk.

It just seems like the "testing the waters" is a shortcut. A wing and a prayer to have a good workout to impress soem scout. Meanwhile, while the tester is sitting in a airport listening to his ipod, some kid in Serbia, Paris, Argentina, or at some small college in the midwest is shooting those thousands of jumpers while the testers are putting on "dog and pony shows" for scouts.

If you're good enough, it will be made clear to you by the NBA brass. I'm am watching the spurs and suns. Its full of can't miss guys. 4 year players like Nash, Duncan, Barry, Bell and Finley. Several foreign players with Parker and Diaw, Barbosa, Manu that were such "can't miss" players at a young age. My theory on that they weren't spending their teenage years traveling to and playing in AAU tourneys. (Another rant for another day.) They were balling 24/7. Of course there were can't miss lottery guys like Shaq and Amare.

Rant over....

MedZag
04-29-2008, 09:49 PM
A couple posts on this thread are first suggestions I have seen that Josh's foot problems are not fully resolved. Is this speculation, or does somebody have actual reliable information to indicate that Josh still has medical problems with his foot? If he can't pass an NBA physical then he is smart to stay in school and get another year towards his degree.

It takes a bone quite a while to "fully heal." Especially a bone in the foot.

Doesn't mean he can't run on it, jump on it, walk on it, dance on it, whatever. Just saying the integrity still isn't there yet and it wouldn't surprise me if his offseason workout is a balance of going hard and techniques to stave off injury (i.e. tons of stretching, core work, plyometrics, etc)

gamagin
04-30-2008, 08:46 AM
Walton's story. JH, to me, is at that same point in his life that Walton was, athletically.

Here is just one Walton story:

http://espn.go.com/classic/biography/s/Walton_Bill.html

It's about crisis and opportunity. What goes on between the ears as well as in the body. What off season and off court actions he is willing to take to make it work on the court.

How much he is willing to devote to a promising career and, ultimately, if he enjoys a little luck.

Here's hoping Josh does what is best for Josh, and if it happens to be a career in basketball, that he commits to it, makes it happen and can enjoy the process and success that is possible for him, given his natural talents that we have all seen and know exists.

It really is up to him. I hope he is up to it.

Go Zags !

joeyoli35
04-30-2008, 09:15 AM
Why would a college kid ever hire an agent? There is a rookie salary scale that is non-negotiable. It would make much more financial sense for a player coming into the draft to retain an attorney after the draft to review all the documents associated with his rookie contract, pay him a one time fee (much less than what agents charge), and then keep the money. I originally thought that part of the rookie salary cap was to limit/eliminate the influence of shady agents on young kids.

Apologies for going off topic, but every time I see that a player "declared, but hasn't hired an agent", it makes me cringe.