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BobZag
04-12-2008, 11:14 AM
By Doug Gottleib--


If this past year told us anything, it is that while stars come and go in college hoops, national championships are built with solid, consistent play at all positions and the occasional young star that puts a team over the top.



Both Memphis and Kansas are worthy references in terms of what it takes to win a championship. After all, Memphis was one 3-point shot away from winning the whole ball of wax. But the Tigers failed, and so we will look at both teams as a litmus test for our 2009 champion.



With so many players yet to determine their future, it is really difficult to ascertain exactly who will have the look of a national title contender. But we can, with Memphis and Kansas from this season and the past couple of years as a guide, look at what makes a champion in the 21st century.


[+] EnlargeAP Photo/Steve Nesius

Jim Calhoun's Huskies should have an experienced, quick backcourt to balance a talented frontcourt next season.

First, you must have depth of talent that has been through the battles. With Florida's 2006 championship as the exception, other recent title teams have all been fairly veteran-based teams with players who are stars at the college level and are looked at as solid future professionals with a couple of rare exceptions.



UConn may have the closest similarity to this year's Kansas team in terms of depth and quality of talent. Like KU, UConn will have a star coming off a spring ACL tear (Brandon Rush for Kansas) in A.J. Price. Like Kansas, UConn will have three ultra-quick guards who all have a different skill set. Whereas KU threw out Sherron Collins, Russell Robinson and Mario Chalmers, UConn brings Jerome Dyson, Doug Wiggins and newcomer Kemba Walker, along with the recovering Price, to load up its backcourt. Dyson is the shooter, Wiggins the midrange scorer and Walker is the ultra-quick point guard who can make it all work. Upon Price's return, UConn will have the best backcourt depth in the land and experience to boot. There is a chance Wiggins decides to transfer, and if so the Russell Robinson of this group would be Craig Austrie, who can defend and needs little or no "love" at the offensive end. With an NBA-level talent in Stanley Robinson at the small forward and the always solid but a bit undersized Jeff Adrien at the block and Gavin Edwards as his backup, UConn will have everything they need if Hasheem Thabeet stays in school for one more year.



Having pros are a nice bonus for teams hoping to push for a title. In fact, almost every champion over the past 20 years has actually featured three eventual NBA first-round drafts picks. Florida's two championship teams had Corey Brewer, Joakim Noah and Al Horford. North Carolina '05 had Sean May, Rashad McCants, Marvin Williams and Raymond Felton. Connecticut '04 had Emeka Okafor, Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva.



So if UCLA's Kevin Love, UNC's Tyler Hansbrough, UConn's Thabeet or Texas' D.J. Augustin were to return, their teams would have three potential first-round draft picks.



This year's Memphis-Kansas championship matchup also proved that the uberelite in the college game possess size, athleticism and shot-making abilities. It is obvious that the combined speed of KU's Mario Chalmers, Russell Robinson, Collins and Memphis' Derrick Rose, Antonio Anderson and Chris Douglas-Roberts may have been the fastest and quickest Final Four ever.



This will not change. Next year, UNC could have that speed and athleticism with Lawson, and UCLA will have Collison (if he returns) and incoming freshmen Jrue Holiday, Jerime Anderson and Malcolm Lee.


[+] EnlargeKevin C. Cox/Getty Images

If Tyler Smith returns to Tennessee, the Vols will again have one of the most athletic teams in the country. But they'll still be missing a point guard and a go-to post player.

In terms of overall team speed, Tennessee may be hard to beat in that regard as well. The Vols will bring in Scotty Hopson and will return Ramar Smith and possibly Tyler Smith. But they may not get over the hump as they are still searching for a back-to-the-basket threat and true point guard.



And while there is always a need for guard play, don't underestimate the need for low-post defense, rebounding and scoring. Memphis' Joey Dorsey fits all those categories, as did Kansas' Darnell Jackson and Sasha Kaun



Next season, North Carolina could be in great shape with Deon Thompson fitting this role, especially if Hansbrough returns. UConn could get the same out of Jeff Adrien. And if Love comes back, UCLA would have Luc Richard Mbah a Moute and Alfred Aboya to give the Bruins' experience in the post.



Past tourney success seems to bode well for teams with a sizeable number of returning players. Although Florida won the title without that experience in 2006, Duke ('01), Maryland ('02), UNC ('05) and Florida ('07) had all been through the wars of the Dance the season before winning it all. Memphis and Kansas were also very close to the Final Four last year.



Of this year's Elite Eight teams, Xavier will lose three starters for the third straight year. And Texas, Louisville and Davidson lose a great deal as well.



It stands to reason that UNC, in the Final Four this year, would be the title favorite next year. Hansbrough has a chance to hold every UNC record if he stays in school, and his stock in the league will be the same regardless. Lawson's stock is low right now, and Wayne Ellington is streaky as a shooter. If two of those three Heels come back, plus the addition of recruits Ed Davis, Tyler Zeller and Larry Drew for depth, they will look like preseason favorites to win the title. Their defensive issues could be lessened by a deeper bench. Bobby Frasor, Drew, Danny Green and Lawson should be able to make enough perimeter shots if and when Ellington goes cold. And, don't forget that the blowout loss to Kansas in the Final Four should be a motivating factor.



I have to give UNC -- based on athleticism, shot-making, likely returning players, talent and coaching -- a slight edge over UCLA to be the most likely team to "pull a Kansas" in '09.

Birddog
04-12-2008, 11:46 AM
What Gottlieb didn't mention in the article but what he did say on a local broadcast the day after the game was, "I was blown away with the size, length, quickness and overall speed of the players on the court". He went on to say he was just AMAZED at their athletic ability, and remember, he played at a high level himself and for about 3 years in the Euro leagues.

I would have to say we have some real positives coming into this next season, but we also have some HUGE question marks, specifically a BIG, back to the basket player that can rebound and score in the 10/10 range. Sacre will have to make some very big strides to be that kind of player IMO, but it could happen.

roxdoc
04-12-2008, 12:44 PM
Right on BD. The low post is the critical question mark for next year's team. Rob certainly has the potential. I would go so far as to say it isn't "if" but "when" we will see it. Just hopin and prayin that he can make some big strides this off season. GO ROB!!

BobZag
04-12-2008, 01:55 PM
I doubt Gonzaga will ever have the numerous studs that the "uberelite" have. The Zags rely more on skill and execution. A smaller margin for error.

btzag
04-12-2008, 07:16 PM
BZ you are right on about the zags never, ever able to have that talent and athleticism on the court. Watching that game it was hard to admit but those teams were so athletic, so big, so fast... No way do we ever have teams like that.

On the other end though not always do the two most athletic teams make the final which happened this year. Usually a team that has talent + decent athleticism + execution + skill will make the final and definitely the Final Four. UCLA was a team that had good athletes, good skill, and good execution but even comparing them to the losing team there is no way that athletically Collison could match Rose or Mbah Moute against CDR or even Love matched with Dorsey.

So I do think that GU can still make a Final Four in the near future if the players land just right and Few keeps recruiting at a high level. The year with Morrison and Batista was in my opinion one of those years where the players landed right and we had a team that COULD have made a Final Four. But like BZ said, the margin of error is very tight and we all know it did not happen.

Just think if Richards would have nailed that 3 to end the game against Kansas....

MickMick
04-12-2008, 08:07 PM
If the Zags can't do it with pure athleticism and skill....then they must do it with emotion and IQ. I look forward to improvement in both areas.

MDABE80
04-12-2008, 08:56 PM
To have the type of talent on display in this year's Final Four, a team ( well this year every team it seemed) would have to be loaded with kids heading toward the NBA. Out Zags began the season with 4 kids who might have developed into NBA players. It didn't happen. We still have the same kids and a bit more talent with Gray developing so quickly.

We've never had the existing talent we have now on one team. I keep getting heartbroken by this group of kids in that they just haven't gelled. Now that the smoke has pretty much cleared for the year, it's good to know we have tremendous talent coming back.

As good as any team? If you asked the scribes, they'd just laugh. Not me. Good health, lots of practice, some luck...I still say we can get there. Whether it's refinements of the system or what, I don't know. The on the court talent is here though. We'll see. I do know that it'll take a lot more than high flyin dunks. Defense and fundamentals seem to win out.

MickMick
04-12-2008, 09:28 PM
To have the type of talent on display in this year's Final Four, a team ( well this year every team it seemed) would have to be loaded with kids heading toward the NBA. Out Zags began the season with 4 kids who might have developed into NBA players. It didn't happen. We still have the same kids and a bit more talent with Gray developing so quickly.



We have seen the flashes of Jeremy and Josh, but we just have not seen the consistent great play. I mean really great play. They are terrific players that really need to bring it every night.

I honestly believe that the Zags can beat anyone if Josh and Jeremy are at the top of their game at the same time. The UNC, Stanford, and Texas games from two years ago are prime examples of that.


It never really materialized this year. I still stand by the statement I have said all year...This team will only go as far as Jeremy (and I'll include Josh as well) takes them. Most recently, they didn't get the Zags past a hot Davidson team.

exiledhusky
04-12-2008, 10:49 PM
Guess no one told Doug Gottleib, Thabeet is good as gone and Calhoun is dismantling the team. Expect five departures, Wiggins, Thabeet, Robinson, Beverly and Kelly.

exiledhusky
04-12-2008, 11:53 PM
Guess no one told Doug Gottleib, Thabeet is good as gone and Calhoun is dismantling the team. Expect five departures, Wiggins, Thabeet, Robinson, Beverly and Kelly.


Going a little bit further with that. Small wonder I have such disdain for writers, such as Gottleib that just write stuff and don't have a clue what they are talking about.

UConn will have a completely different look next year.

Point Guard - Kembra Walker, NYC McD hamburger and all that goes with that.

Shooting Guard - Assuming he regains his mobility, A J Price, other wise it is Haralson.

Third Guard in the rotation - Scottie Haralson, a four star guy who is being brought in to shoot threes. Four stars don't sign without the promise of playing time, nor does Calhoun sign one as a practice only player.

Sliding down the rotation, Jerome Dyson, that's if JC allows him to stay with the team. He's on very thin ice.

Sliding into oblivion, Craig Austrie.

Small Forward, Nate Miles who has commited and just needs a little more doctor on the transcripts. Hey, they got Thabeet eligible, they'll pull it off.

Off the team, or at best the the second backup behind Miles and Dyson at the two / three swingman position, Robinson.

Gone is Thabeet- His mother lives in poverty in Kenya, and he wants desperately to provide for her. NBA gurus are saying he is late lottery to mid twenties first round. Maybe Gottlieb should give one good reason Tahbeet would stay.


Center- Ater Majok, a 6-10 center from Sudan via Australia who is expected to make an immeadiate impact.

So they have, Walker, Price, Miles, Adrian and Majok as the starting five next year. Long way from what the nitwit author is talking about.

exiledhusky
04-13-2008, 12:16 AM
We have seen the flashes of Jeremy and Josh, but we just have not seen the consistent great play. I mean really great play. They are terrific players that really need to bring it every night.

I honestly believe that the Zags can beat anyone if Josh and Jeremy are at the top of their game at the same time. The UNC, Stanford, and Texas games from two years ago are prime examples of that.


It never really materialized this year. I still stand by the statement I have said all year...This team will only go as far as Jeremy (and I'll include Josh as well) takes them. Most recently, they didn't get the Zags past a hot Davidson team.

It should be obvious to anyone paying attention, what hurt Pargo last year was the absence of Heytfelt. Does anyone really believe he was back? A summer of conditioning and playing should help him regain dominance.

Without a guy drawing a double when the ball goes into the post, you don't beat the heavyweights.

Josh re-establishing himself as a dominant post player will elevate JP to 1st team all american.

applezag
04-13-2008, 07:16 AM
Josh re-establishing himself as a dominant post player will elevate JP to 1st team all american.

Pargo's number one objective has to be his jumper. For him to have the success he has had getting by defenders when they are still daring him to shoot is pretty impressive. If they have to honor his outside shot, he will get to the hoop any time he wants.

There are a lot of folks here that believe this is a stretch that will never happen, despite years of trying. Their belief is that "that's just not his game". I am not one of those. I think this needs to happen for GU to realize its potential next year. There are plenty of perimeter threats, Josh is not needed out there. He needs to get twice as aggressive and develop his left hand. It might be easier to do that when completely healed. Another big factor inside will be the development of Sacre.

BobZag
04-13-2008, 09:19 AM
CDC mentioned it, and I totally agree... Jeremy should be shooting 1000 treys per day this offseason. (And maybe an electrical shock for every turnover?) lol

But I've noticed that 99% of the time, for whatever reason, as Bouldin goes Gonzaga goes. Anyone else notice? When Matt struggles, Gonzaga usually loses.

Josh's ankle was never fully healed. Notice he played his best after long layoffs where the ankle could rest? We all must hope it heals 100% between now and November. Pretty sure it will before that.

MickMick
04-13-2008, 10:33 AM
But I've noticed that 99% of the time, for whatever reason, as Bouldin goes Gonzaga goes. Anyone else notice? When Matt struggles, Gonzaga usually loses.



I might agree, but so many are quick to anoint Jeremy as All-World. Yes....I have bought into his game. But if we are going to designate him as our star player, he better take some credit for the losses as well as the wins.

We can't always say we win because of Jeremy and lose because of Matt. If Jeremy truly is the star of this team, then he has to bear the brunt of the burden.....otherwise he isn't the star.

This team will go as far ar Jeremy (the star) takes them. Does anyone really feel that way about Matt?

exiledhusky
04-13-2008, 11:45 AM
I might agree, but so many are quick to anoint Jeremy as All-World. Yes....I have bought into his game. But if we are going to designate him as our star player, he better take some credit for the losses as well as the wins.

We can't always say we win because of Jeremy and lose because of Matt. If Jeremy truly is the star of this team, then he has to bear the brunt of the burden.....otherwise he isn't the star.

This team will go as far ar Jeremy (the star) takes them. Does anyone really feel that way about Matt?


You are 100% correct, any team will go only as far as the PG takes them. Before any of that takes place, he must have the tools to work with. Matt Bouldin is a key piece in the tool box.

Birddog
04-13-2008, 11:50 AM
Jeremy should be shooting 1000 treys per day this offseason.
The same goes for Bouldin.

CDC84
04-13-2008, 12:01 PM
The only way this team will have any shot of making it to Detroit next season is if the offense is run thru its best and most talented offensive player, and that's Austin Daye. GU will not get past the 1st weekend with Pargo sitting out on perimeter, dribbling and waiting for the shot clock to dwindle down so that he can beat his man off the bounce. Even if Jeremy improves his jumper....doesn't matter....the offense has to run thru Austin.

Daye has had his year to go through the freshman brick walls and to understand what it's going to take to be great at this level. It's now time for the program to use him like how they wanted to when they recruited him.

I think Few needs to approach Daye and issue this challenge. He needs to say it's his team, and that he's their money player. Therefore, the program really needs for him to work as hard as he possiblly can when it comes to strength and conditioning throughout the offseason, as well as other areas of his game.

Pargo maybe the team's leader, but Daye has got to be the guy from now on. Besides, running the offense thru a talented player like Austin will create more opportunities off the ball for Pargo. In fact it will create more opportunities for everyone because I don't think there will be a forward in the country next year that has anywhere near Austin's offensive abilities who can pass the basketball like the can.

P.S. = Matt Bouldin better improve a lot more between his sophomore and junior years than he did between his freshman and sophomore years. I have a feeling (not based on any concrete evidence) that we are not necessarily guaranteed to see the 3 guard attack if he doesn't improve. I felt toward the end of this past season that Steven Gray showed more improvement during a one month stretch than I've seen Matt make in his 2 years at Gonzaga.

I am also with applezag regarding Josh. If Heytvelt wants to increase his draft stock during his senior year, he needs to refine his low post game. It's now or never. He needs to develop some countermoves coming off his right shoulder, and to further develop that left handed hook shot. The NBA folks are not going to be satisfied with him just shooting jumpers. He has too much size and athleticism (when healthy) for him to not take advantage of it near the basket. I would like to think that with the sands of time running low on Josh's eligibility, that it will inspire him to really dedicate himself towards improving his low post game, his rebounding on both ends, etc.

Rangerzag
04-13-2008, 12:45 PM
I don't think Jeremy needs to be a great shot for the Zags to do well 08/09. If Jeremy's nba stock is to peak his shooting needs to be top notch.

The biggest improvement from Jeremy to benefit the Zags will be 100% possession retention.

Jeremy's biggest compliments this past year were associated with the improvement of his floor general capabilities. He did indeed make fine strides in that area. Without going back and studying the year and going on my memory, the normal Jeremy game plan was to spread the ball to the troops as the oportunities presented themselves. The problems started when the troops couldn't get the ball in the whole. As I recall, when no one else was getting points on the board Jeremy would start doing everything and anything he could manage to get those points himself.

If the other Zags on the floor are scoring I believe Jeremy will be quite happy contributing occasional daggers as they present themselves. He has done that fairly well so far. Any improvement in shooting by Jeremy will increase the likelihood that those daggers sink home every single time. If the balance of the team can pull its collective weight on a night in, night out reliable basis, I think Jeremy will rise with the tide as long as turnovers by all are minimal.

.

roxdoc
04-13-2008, 12:48 PM
Good post as usual CDC. Although everyone can get better, Daye and Gray are gold, Downs is solid, others need some improvement, but there are unknowns at low post and personnel in a 3 guard system. I don't envy the coaches in trying to adopt an offensive system to take full advantage of the talent we have with these unknowns hanging over them. IMHO the system didn't work well last year, some but not all of which can be attributed to injuries. Hopefully the thinking caps are on - how many reps per day should the coaches do?

MickMick
04-13-2008, 02:27 PM
Pargo maybe the team's leader, but Daye has got to be the guy from now on. Besides, running the offense thru a talented player like Austin will create more opportunities off the ball for Pargo. In fact it will create more opportunities for everyone because I don't think there will be a forward in the country next year that has anywhere near Austin's offensive abilities who can pass the basketball like the can.


I agree that the "star" torch must be passed to Daye. That is an "All World" I can totally agree with. Austin may only be with the Zags for one more season....better take advantage of it. When I say that the team will only go as far as Jeremy takes them (been saying it all season long) , I am directing the comment at those that believe that Jeremy is without fault. I am only reinforcing what they believe and waiting for an explanation for two short post seasons in a row. Apparently it is Matt's fault. No one has taken exception or noticed the irony until CDC in this thread. I certainly would have given Jeremy full credit for advancing in the tournament as well. From my vantage, I didn't have too high of expectations though.

When Josh leaves, the "big guy" torch will be handed squarely to Sacre. He doesn't have a choice but to take the "bull by the horns."

The same challenge that Few issues to Daye must be given to Robert....but for different reasons. For all the scoring the Zags will need from Austin, they will need the rebounding and shot blocking presence from Sacre as well.

MDABE80
04-13-2008, 02:51 PM
Sounds about right. There's 3 bona fide All-Americans on next year's team. Jeremy not only much get the discipline to not be the funny man but he needs to go shoot those FT's and go Rotnei on the 3 pt/longer 2 pt shots.

Everyone knows it. So he ought to just go do it. He won't sniff the league if he doesn't figure it out and also get some ballhandling skills on board. The biggest thing though is that somebody needs to whisper in Jeremy's ear that he has 2 AA's waiting to get the ball to put some points up. Those 2 being Josh and Mr Daye.

If those 2 big guys do what they're supposed to do and JP's feeding them but maintaining an outside presence ( people MUST be scared of his 3t/2pt shooting), that's the balance we need. If this is developed over the nest year, we get back to the top 10 with all the perks that go with that type of seed. If the kids don't do that, we're just another team that goes home during or after the 1st weekend.....with just enough sizzle to get there but not advance.

zag67
04-13-2008, 03:14 PM
I think that the 3 guard offense only works against certain teams. If you noticed, Matt had his best games when he had to play more 1/2 or against teams that did not have a tall 3 that would negate his postup moves. His worst games were against teams like WSU where they put a 6' 6" or taller person on him.

I also agree that the ball needs to go through Austin. But you want to use players like Jeremy, Matt, Micah, and Steven moving with the ball and then feeding him to be able to create.

They need to recognize the missmatches and use them. Hopefully they can keep everyone happy and contributing. I am looking forward to watching them play next year (with or without any additions).

MickMick
04-13-2008, 03:18 PM
Two years ago, Villanova ran one heck of a 3 guard offense featuring Foye. But they were ball handlers supreme. Take Jeremy out of the Zag lineup and how much confidence do you have against the press? Jeremy was critical to Zag success for that reason.

Meech is most certainly welcome with open arms. Considering the profile of the current Zag team, a much better "get" than Rotnei Clarke.

NEZAGFAN
04-13-2008, 03:29 PM
Two years ago, Villanova ran one heck of a 3 guard offense featuring Foye. But they were ball handlers supreme. Take Jeremy out of the Zag lineup and how much confidence do you have against the press? Jeremy was critical to Zag success for that reason.

Meech is most certainly welcome with open arms. Considering the profile of the current Zag team, a much better "get" than Rotnei Clarke.

Well said Mick, Rotnei may have more shooting ability but we have plenty of that on next year's team whereas Meech willl probably be our second best "true" ball handler.

zag buddy
04-13-2008, 05:20 PM
We need all players to be able to get the ball inside. There was a glaring lack of that this season.

CDC84
04-13-2008, 05:24 PM
To run a 3 guard attack at a high level in the college game, you need blazing speed and athleticism. At the very least, two of the three guards need to have blazing speed and athleticism.

Gonzaga doesn't have that. Bouldin and Gray play at just about the same speed, and while I wouldn't call them slow, neither guy is going to break down a quality wing defender off the bounce. What you basically get is one guard (Pargo) that's perfect for that sort of alignment, and two guys who are out of place. The only place where Gonzaga's 3 guard attack creates serious matchup problems is within the WCC most of the time or against Big Sky schools. When the big time BCS teams come along, it's a lot easier for them to defend the Zags.

Reborn
04-14-2008, 12:16 PM
Jeremy Pargo was first team All-America this year. (Congrats Pargo). I believe he'll improve that to either first or second team next year. Now, that's something to build a team around...The Zags know this. Austin is going to have a great year next year, and should make 2nd team All-America. And I hope Josh will be an honorable All-American at Center. All three of these guys have this kind of potential.

Jeremy and Josh are Seniors and we haven't had this kind of Senior leadership since Adam and JP (accept Adam was a junior but it was his last year as a Zag). Teams are built around Senior leadership sometimes. A great team needs a great scorer, and Austin will certainly be that guy.

I'm really looking forward to watching this team next year.

229SintoZag
04-14-2008, 01:27 PM
Jeremy Pargo was first team All-America this year. (Congrats Pargo). I believe he'll improve that to either first or second team next year. Now, that's something to build a team around...The Zags know this. Austin is going to have a great year next year, and should make 2nd team All-America. And I hope Josh will be an honorable All-American at Center. All three of these guys have this kind of potential.

Jeremy and Josh are Seniors and we haven't had this kind of Senior leadership since Adam and JP (accept Adam was a junior but it was his last year as a Zag). Teams are built around Senior leadership sometimes. A great team needs a great scorer, and Austin will certainly be that guy.

I'm really looking forward to watching this team next year.

Actually I think he was an honorable mention.

Reborn
04-14-2008, 01:40 PM
Ooops:) I knew that, and meant to say it too. Thanks for the correction.

Pleasant Peninsula
04-14-2008, 07:26 PM
Regarding the fact that championship teams of late have had three first round draft picks on their team:

We know we have one of those on our roster for next year (Daye) and I submit that we *possibly* have three others (Pargo, Heytvelt, Gray). Now none of those three are first round material now, and Jeremy and Josh only have a year to work their way up. But a lot of improvement can be made in a year and there is reason to believe those two have the talent and bodies that might afford such an improvement. Gray is more of a wild card, because right now he's nowhere near NBA material, but he only has a half season under his belt and he seems to possess a shot that could make him an assassin and he has a body and athleticism that would make him more of an NBA prospect than other great college shooters (Ravio) that just didn't have the range of skills that NBA teams are looking for.

Anyway, I think it is a realistic possibility that two of those three step it up significantly next year, and in doing so raise their draft status up to the point of being first round material. If that happens, there is every reason to believe that Gonzaga can be a national championship contender next season.

However, having a wealth of NBA-destined talent doesn't mean that you are going to be a national championship contender. Ask Arizona this year. They probably have three lottery picks on their roster and that barely bought them a winning record and a first round exit. So there's more to it than merely having the talent, as we saw this year. It has to mesh and work, which I think most of us would admit it didn't always do this year. I often felt the whole wasn't akin to the sum of the parts. And that's the coaching staff's responsibility. The national champion will almost certainly come from one of the top twenty teams in terms of overall talent; the coaching staffs that can somehow create team synergy are the ones that are going to be left standing in March. Ensuring that this is the case with the 09 Zags will be just as important as whether or not Pargo and Heytvelt can take it up a couple notches...